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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
RossP Zoyka
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Posted - 2007.07.19 20:59:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Sharupak
Quote: Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude.
EXACTLY! That is what is so cool about this game!
The station is the only safe place in EVE. Everything is fair game. That is what makes it FUN!
When we walk in stations even they will become unsafe....
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.07.19 21:06:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2007 21:08:28
Originally by: Yanjul Slagenhoffen
But you must agree the insurance acts wrong;
In a case where your in high sec and you shoot someone and die to concord, its your own doing and you know its your own doing, you shouldnt AT ALL get the insurance back.
Also another point would be sec status, you've been seen by CONCORD (the police) with the will and guts to engage a ship right in front of them. So why only the mild sec hit, these people should go straight to outlaw!
Well yes, but the game needs insurance. I remember back when I was new and tried my guns at some random ship outside the station and got concordokken. Thats how I learned. I didnt read any guides, I just wanted to try the game and learn for myself.
Without insurance, people could be set back to square 1 with a tritanium in their pocket because they didnt know about the things you and me take for granted now.
In other mmorpg's, if you try to shoot the guards or other people in the newbie zones, you get messages with "you cant do that". Eve allows you to do that, but has consequences. And because of that, it must be a bit forgiving towards newbies as well.
People are abusing the insurance, sure, but we cant let them take the insurance away from the real newbies. I believe they need it. Eve should be unforgiving, but it must allow people to learn the ropes. Thats why I feel we need insurance, even though its not realistic it should work that way. But its also not realistic that the cops catch 100% of criminals in high sec either. Eve has a decent compromise.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Pukeko
B.O.O.M
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Posted - 2007.07.19 21:18:00 -
[123]
It may be worth considering shipping your stuff via haulage contracts. The advantage of having your gear broken up into smaller transportable lots on numerous different ships would surely outweigh the extra time and expense this setup requires.
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.19 21:21:00 -
[124]
I agree this is an exploit, even though your friend should have known better.
Reason Being: Its only possible to do this because Concord doesnt target drones. So if this was attempted in any other ship, its impossible. But since its a drone boat...who cares if concord jams you, while Concord is Jamming and killing you, your drones are still killing the hauler.
When one type of ship has a means to circumvent Concord, thats called an exploit.
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Vrizuh
Eve Defence Force Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.19 21:25:00 -
[125]
Do you get concorded for scanning cargo?
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Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.19 21:30:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Vrizuh Do you get concorded for scanning cargo?
Nope. You can scan out your targets risk free before you engage.
This one of two key uses for a passive targetter: locking onto your target without him knowing so that you can scan him to see if he is worth sucide ganking. In most other situtations it really doesn't matter if you target knows that you have a lock on him.
The other use for Passive Targetters is of course mineral compression.
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Marilda
Amarr Big Brother Holding Company
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Posted - 2007.07.19 22:49:00 -
[127]
It might be a good idea to make high sec into safe sec, because in the long run it would solve the population problem.
Say for instance that players with a sec status of -1.0 or with a bounty, couldn't enter Empire space (at all), without CONCORD intervening, it would mean that they would have to trade in low sec, thus increasing the ammount of goods traded there. Since it is my impression that, at present, most pirates go into Empire space to sell their loot.
Carebears would then be free to drive down the prices due to over-supply, and it would make low sec the place to make profits.... thus leading to people moving out of high sec.
Making Empire space more secure might also help to attract more women to play Eve - something CCP claims it wants.
Oh, one other thing... just as people shouldn't use RL to make points. It is equally lame to use Darwinism as an argument. If you mean 'nature red in tooth and claw' then you are refering to Neo-Darwinism. An entirely different theory, which largely neglects that those species who live a peaceful, co-operative existance tend to be the most successful.
btw suicide ganking is clearly an exploit, if it wasn't then CCP wouldn't have programmed CONCORD to intervene ------ Yes but does it make money? |
necronarcosis
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.19 23:02:00 -
[128]
i dont agree with removing suicide ganking in highsec at all, however the punishment should fit the crime, a straight -5 for players that suicide gank in highsec and 0 payout for there lost ship.
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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.07.20 00:01:00 -
[129]
Read part of the first post, skipped the rest of the thread.
All I want to add is this:
Your friend got to 2bn in assets but still didn't know about suicide ganking??? |
cal nereus
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.07.20 00:07:00 -
[130]
Edited by: cal nereus on 20/07/2007 00:07:44 Life isn't fair. Eve isn't fair. CCP didn't make this game so that it would be the most popular or have the most customers. They made it with a specific design philosophy in mind, appealing to a devoted niche of players that are more than willing to pay money for multiple accounts (often because they have the freedom to help or hurt other players whether those players want it or not). This game isn't supposed to appeal to everyone, and your friend is just one of those people who won't enjoy the game and probably should play something else.
On the other hand, a higher punishment for suicide-ganking sounds like a reasonable change. People should still be free to completely ruin other people's stuff, but at a higher price to themselves.
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Jake Devlin
Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.07.20 00:42:00 -
[131]
"the main purposes of CONCORD was to ease the fragile tension and create a foundation for the empires to work their differences out in a peaceful manner. In this regard, the workings of CONCORD can be said to have been successful, since the empires have kept the peace over the last century. On numerous occasions relationships deteriorated to within an inch of all out war, but through the efforts of CONCORD a compromise solution has always been found."
The purpose of concord is not to protect anyone, but to prevent war between the four major factions... read the prime fiction people. concord is not and will never be the police. they are not here to keep you safe. they are here to prevent war and nothing else. ] |
Gibbal Slogspit
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.07.21 11:47:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2007 21:08:28
Originally by: Yanjul Slagenhoffen
But you must agree the insurance acts wrong;
In a case where your in high sec and you shoot someone and die to concord, its your own doing and you know its your own doing, you shouldnt AT ALL get the insurance back.
Also another point would be sec status, you've been seen by CONCORD (the police) with the will and guts to engage a ship right in front of them. So why only the mild sec hit, these people should go straight to outlaw!
Well yes, but the game needs insurance. I remember back when I was new and tried my guns at some random ship outside the station and got concordokken. Thats how I learned. I didnt read any guides, I just wanted to try the game and learn for myself.
Without insurance, people could be set back to square 1 with a tritanium in their pocket because they didnt know about the things you and me take for granted now.
In other mmorpg's, if you try to shoot the guards or other people in the newbie zones, you get messages with "you cant do that". Eve allows you to do that, but has consequences. And because of that, it must be a bit forgiving towards newbies as well.
People are abusing the insurance, sure, but we cant let them take the insurance away from the real newbies. I believe they need it. Eve should be unforgiving, but it must allow people to learn the ropes. Thats why I feel we need insurance, even though its not realistic it should work that way. But its also not realistic that the cops catch 100% of criminals in high sec either. Eve has a decent compromise.
The 'Criminals' in EvE, seem to get a lot more forgiveness than the people that are trading, that are running missions that are mining.
Maybe that aspect of the game isnt balanced.
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DukeJoost1
The Last Solution Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.21 12:00:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka .... CONCORD and the insurance system are behaving ilogicaly. What I miss in the system is victim protection. I mean you get ganked, you loose all and still the police only kills the attackers in easy to replace ships.
1. Insurance contract invalid if killed by CONCORD. This should be a first step. 2. After you get suicided, CONCORD treats your wreck as confiscated (for 15 minutes or so) and only allows you to pick up the remains. Anybody else trying to take from it (or shoot it) is again killed by CONCORD and 1. applies.
Or an alternative to 2. CONCORD takes the cargo to a station and you are notified where you can pick it up again. ...
/signed
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Quetzalcoatle
Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.21 12:14:00 -
[134]
Originally by: DukeJoost1
Originally by: Hugh Ruka .... CONCORD and the insurance system are behaving ilogicaly. What I miss in the system is victim protection. I mean you get ganked, you loose all and still the police only kills the attackers in easy to replace ships.
1. Insurance contract invalid if killed by CONCORD. This should be a first step. 2. After you get suicided, CONCORD treats your wreck as confiscated (for 15 minutes or so) and only allows you to pick up the remains. Anybody else trying to take from it (or shoot it) is again killed by CONCORD and 1. applies.
Or an alternative to 2. CONCORD takes the cargo to a station and you are notified where you can pick it up again. ...
/signed
I can only really agree with #1. But imo #2 wouldn't be punishment enough for the idiots that haul/put to many of their eggs in one T1 basket.
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Cpt Fina
Insult to Injury
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Posted - 2007.07.21 12:26:00 -
[135]
Are freighters still getting suicideganked, pre-Concordbuff?
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Human Cattle
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Posted - 2007.07.21 12:32:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Jake Devlin "the main purposes of CONCORD was to ease the fragile tension and create a foundation for the empires to work their differences out in a peaceful manner. In this regard, the workings of CONCORD can be said to have been successful, since the empires have kept the peace over the last century. On numerous occasions relationships deteriorated to within an inch of all out war, but through the efforts of CONCORD a compromise solution has always been found."
The purpose of concord is not to protect anyone, but to prevent war between the four major factions... read the prime fiction people. concord is not and will never be the police. they are not here to keep you safe. they are here to prevent war and nothing else.
also going by the fiction Caldari >>> Other Races. Not to mention blowing up ships with one missile...
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Gutsani
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.21 12:35:00 -
[137]
my signature says it all ..
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.07.21 12:53:00 -
[138]
Oh noes! Its Fina!
Also, this is a whine thread posted by a pansy on behalf of a pansy who got pwned. Nothing to see here.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Cpt Fina
Insult to Injury
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Posted - 2007.07.21 12:54:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Frug Oh noes! Its Fina!
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Daelise Seryu
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Posted - 2007.07.21 13:36:00 -
[140]
A lot of good points. Though as far as punishment goes, Concord has some easy limitations. It's easy enough for even a suicide attacker to occassionally go ratting and keep themself at 0.1 security status, so there's not much of a problem staying in high security space. Their response time is near instant in some things and about half a minute (if at all) in some other cases. A person sometimes even has the opportunity to blow up a ship, dock for fifteen minutes, come back and do it again and Concord's pretty much going to just look the other way. Kill rights, while sometimes nice, really doesn't impress the whole idea that there's any kind of protection, just legalized vengeance. Flagging someone as a universal criminal (15 minutes free for all) for commiting the crime of shooting someone down would do more to discourage empire criminal activity. With as many occurences as there are of people shooting up rookie ships for giggles, I'd think that Concord, or at least the faction in control would be ready to blow anyone away in 1.0 at a blink. I've never actually seen someone shoot down someone else with drones in empire space, but if Concord's actually shooting at the drones, they're clearly missing the concept of drones. Why not just have defender missiles going at all times to punish errant missiles that may be fired...
But overall, the many people who've said it are right on the money. Undocking at all is taking a risk, no matter where it's at. A ship's not just a cargo bay, it's the insurance policy on the cargo, use it intelligently. Even horrible failiure or circumstance is a learning experience, never assume that something won't go wrong, assume it will and multiple times. Cargo scanning really isn't that big of a deal, after all, just looking at a ship by right clicking on it is effectively the same as asking what would it be worth in salvage or what could it potentially be equipped with that'll survive detonation. Plus, cargo scanning sometimes helps keep people alive. They know which ones aren't worth shooting down, so those people don't get shot pointlessly. Piracy is a valid and often lucrative trade, the game was designed that way.
And most importantly of all: exploitation of people's expectations is not something that game designers are going to combat, only exploitation of game/system unintended features. Piracy is intended in this game and unless it somehow involves another means of exploitation, like taking advantage of a bug in the system, it's just piracy.
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Ecatherina W
Gallente Core Domination Big Bang Quantum
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Posted - 2007.07.21 13:49:00 -
[141]
1) Don't fly things out of Jita in a T1 industrial. 2) Don't fly anything out of Jita in primetime or weekends. Not valuable stuff anyway.
How to get t2 gear out of Jita 1) Buy an Exequror or similar ship 2) Add passive shieldtanks + warp core stabs 3) Use an undocking safe if possible. 4) Use a courier contract to keep the contents of your cargohold a secret 5) Place your shopping in secure cans
If you can, use a light frig or an intercepter to carry out the most expensive items.
This is not fool-proof. Fools are so darn clever. But it helps.
Kath
***** Ecatherina W ***** Empress of the Multiverse
DGAF Newbie Guide to Everything Eve
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Toda Toranaga
Gallente Golden Apples of the Sun Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2007.07.21 13:54:00 -
[142]
I am a hulk pilot, and would suffer a serious blow if someone suicided me. I agree that this suicide ganking issue is a little ovebalanced. I for one, actually have no problem with the pirates of eve. In a REAL universe, there would BE pirates. So they add a factor of realism and challenge to the game, which I think makes it more enjoyable (not that I enjoy losing ships, of course). But losing 2 billion isk of assets to a suicide ganker with a cheap ship, who only loses a couple of milion isk IF concord attacks him (recent rumors i have heard suggest that concord is bugged....again), makes this a completely over balanced situation, and makes it almost pointless to play for newer characters, as well as most industrialists. I for one, have a pvp alt who flies battleships, and when I am mining, he is in the gang, providing security at the belt. And this is in a 0.7 System.
I think I may have to delay my plans to set up a base in low (0.4) sec any time soon. ________________________________________________ On average, every day, 1,236 innoncent jet cans pop after being left out too long by careless noob miners.
Lets put a stop to the negligence!
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Maulrex X
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Posted - 2007.07.21 14:09:00 -
[143]
Originally by: RFwills It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones.
Please, if you have 2 billion isk worth of goods you don't move it around in a poorly armored indy.
For christ sake!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS WHY T2 HAULERS ARE IN THE GAME.
Why are people so stupid.
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Toda Toranaga
Gallente Golden Apples of the Sun Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2007.07.21 14:12:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Maulrex X
Originally by: RFwills It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones.
Please, if you have 2 billion isk worth of goods you don't move it around in a poorly armored indy.
For christ sake!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS WHY T2 HAULERS ARE IN THE GAME.
Why are people so stupid.
gotta admit. hes got a point. There's also warping to zero, gets you right in the face of the stargate, and ur gone a second after that. and then, you could always buy a bs pilot alt to escort you. course, the other 2 sound a lot cheaper :)
________________________________________________ On average, every day, 1,236 innoncent jet cans pop after being left out too long by careless noob miners.
Lets put a stop to the negligence!
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.07.21 14:13:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire
As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams!
Carebear??!!??
/me raises eyebrow
SKUNK
Originally by: Fink Angel They acted like Mr. Creasote at the all you can eat buffet, and CCP provided the Wafer Theeen Mint.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.21 14:29:00 -
[146]
repeat after me:
empire space is safer
safer
safer
NOT SAFE, SAFER
thank you for wasting your time in a lesson that people should learn in their first 10 days of EVE. ---
truth about EVE: Quote: "Guns are fine, boost players"
Quote: "Players are fine, boost guns"
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Undercover Palmtree
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Posted - 2007.07.21 14:32:00 -
[147]
I've been suicide ganked and have suicide ganked A LOT of people. More likely 10x more people then the people who killed your friend. I've done all the math and have the whole thing down to a science. Out of 2 months or so of doing this all I can say is...
It's not that profitable. Yes I know that you can find people who carry cargo worth billions, but you don't find those people every 5 minutes. And when you do, they are not always on auto-pilot and warping to 15km (giving you enough time to lock, scan, determine if he's worth attacking, get in range, and attack) and they are not always in a paper thing Iteron I. So esentially you end up spending a few hours (and we camp the highest traffic gates in the game) having to be very attentive, and scan everything going through. More often than not everybody gets a little bored and when something big goes through people are not paying attention and the person gets too close to the gate to engage. Other times they are in a transport, which has as much Armor/Shields/Structure as a battleship almost and cannot be taken down unless you have ridiculous firepower. Most people though.. just warp to 0, and there is no way to kill those people unless you have a very large group and everybody is very well organized.. and I mean VERY well ogranized, and at that point you could do more profitable things anyways.
The other problem is that what survives is completely random. We've killed people who carry over 1 billion in cargo (and not just one item, over 150 items) and almost everything blew up with them. Yes, sometimes almost all of it must survive, but most of the time you lose a lot of the money.
Essentially the whole things is a lottery game. You sit at a gate for hours, hoping that some idiot will come through on auto-pilot, carrying everything he owns, in the weakest hauling ship in the game and that when you blow him up, he is going to drop most of the loot. Can it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no. It's the same chance as you going ratting and a faction item dropping thats worth 2 billion isk. Does it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no.
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Toda Toranaga
Gallente Golden Apples of the Sun Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2007.07.21 14:38:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Undercover Palmtree I've been suicide ganked and have suicide ganked A LOT of people. More likely 10x more people then the people who killed your friend. I've done all the math and have the whole thing down to a science. Out of 2 months or so of doing this all I can say is...
It's not that profitable. Yes I know that you can find people who carry cargo worth billions, but you don't find those people every 5 minutes. And when you do, they are not always on auto-pilot and warping to 15km (giving you enough time to lock, scan, determine if he's worth attacking, get in range, and attack) and they are not always in a paper thing Iteron I. So esentially you end up spending a few hours (and we camp the highest traffic gates in the game) having to be very attentive, and scan everything going through. More often than not everybody gets a little bored and when something big goes through people are not paying attention and the person gets too close to the gate to engage. Other times they are in a transport, which has as much Armor/Shields/Structure as a battleship almost and cannot be taken down unless you have ridiculous firepower. Most people though.. just warp to 0, and there is no way to kill those people unless you have a very large group and everybody is very well organized.. and I mean VERY well ogranized, and at that point you could do more profitable things anyways.
The other problem is that what survives is completely random. We've killed people who carry over 1 billion in cargo (and not just one item, over 150 items) and almost everything blew up with them. Yes, sometimes almost all of it must survive, but most of the time you lose a lot of the money.
Essentially the whole things is a lottery game. You sit at a gate for hours, hoping that some idiot will come through on auto-pilot, carrying everything he owns, in the weakest hauling ship in the game and that when you blow him up, he is going to drop most of the loot. Can it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no. It's the same chance as you going ratting and a faction item dropping thats worth 2 billion isk. Does it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no.
Well, there you have it. Its really NOT that overbalanced. Sometimes, people just get lucky. It happens to everyone now and then. Like when us HONEST industrialists fly into a system with a LOT of belts, filled with a LOT of macro miners, and u got that nice big hauler to take it all back to the station "for them"
ahh. I love macro miners. They just keep giving and giving. ________________________________________________ "Notice: Strip Miner I deactivates because you were AFK smoking a ciggarette."
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Hilabana
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.07.21 14:46:00 -
[149]
If you ask me thats no real problem there is risk in high sec. players seem to forget that and they think the high sec players never have risk at all. i have seen gate camps take out BS but i have seen the ones that do it now get web and killed by every ship at the gate.
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Druadan
Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2007.07.21 15:19:00 -
[150]
While I support a person's right to suicide gank, as there's no reason to put a stop to it, per se, as EVE is all about freedom, I personally think insurance should not be paid out if your ship is destroyed by police/faction/concord. Concord do not provide protection, they provide punishment; a reaction to criminal action. Not getting your insurance would mean the ganker would have to benefit from the loot, which is how it should be.
"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire |
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