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Claire Raynor
NovaGear
7
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Posted - 2012.01.04 14:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:No no no no and NOES !!
A lot of meta4 is there for a reason, lower pg/cpu or whatever, thing is that they're rare compared with T2 you can build no matter who and get as many as you want, now I'd prefer T2's to have 0 speed/mass/agility drawbacks In the end the only thing you're going to have by asking that kind of upgrade will probably result in something like hybrids rebalance: projectiles got even more buffs
Faction guns/ammo better than T2? -wth? seriously wth???? The day where faction ammo and guns will require more training time than T2 I'll agree with you. Until then faction ammo/guns/items are already way overpowered for IG tools not requiring the same training time than T2 and offering equivalent performances.
Everything requiring long time investment in skills should bring proportional rewards. If you guys don't want to train skills then ask nex store to open and sell stuff for cash...
Hi Tanya,
I think that Faction gear could be considered slightly differently than meta 4 in this context, (although I agree with your thinking). I wouldn't mind if the faction stuff were better, (even though it doesn't need trainning like T2 gear does), because it is quite hard to get. At least it is for me. Or I might well be playing wrong :) . I can make most stuff, and now that I'm trainned to use it I can just have the best. But the faction gear requires LP and insignias and all that - the time commitment to get faction gear must count for something, is the crux of my thoughts on this. Unlike trainning for T2 gear where you have a one off time commitment; with faction stuff you have a time commitment each time you need it. (I'm in the militia so I get it easier! and still I would choose to roll with T2 over faction because it's easier to get a hold of).
:) |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
56
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Posted - 2012.01.04 15:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Actually, having different mass penalties for different meta levels of the same size plate can be useful if you want to "tweak" the mass of your ship for C1 WH closing ops (your goal is to try to get as close to the 20mil mark as you can without going over). Admittedly niche, but knowledgeable C1 dwellers (which do exist, mind you) would be rather annoyed by having their mass calcs thrown off. |
Stringar
16TH C.A.B
4
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Posted - 2012.01.04 16:29:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:Make meta plates more rare is also a solution but it'ld be nice if all T2 would be plain better (except for fitting and/or cap use)
While you're at it, introduce 3200mm and 6400mm plates.
they definitely need to get larger plates and also fix the tech 2 ones
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Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
132
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Posted - 2012.01.06 02:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote: A lot of meta4 is there for a reason, lower pg/cpu or whatever, thing is that they're rare compared with T2 you can build no matter who and get as many as you want, now I'd prefer T2's to have 0 speed/mass/agility drawbacks In the end the only thing you're going to have by asking that kind of upgrade will probably result in something like hybrids rebalance: projectiles got even more buffs
Yep, this could happen, if CCP were to over-buff the T2 plates. Quite frankly, I don't worry much about over-buff, since successful game balancing requires an ongoing dynamic process of tweaking numbers up and down. The try-to-fix-it-once-and-fail static solution never works in a complicated simulation system.
So, I guess Tanya would vote for nerfing the drop rate of Rolled Tungsten plates, to make them "rare compared with T2" again. Anyone else? |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
127
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Posted - 2012.01.09 03:55:00 -
[35] - Quote
+1 for the idea of a T2 skill to reduce the mass penalty of T2 plates.
+1 for fixing faction guns. (why was this even suggested in this thread? something about meta levels and Tech levels?) Currently, many of the faction guns are "broken" Consider small neutron blasters: meta 0 optimal = 1500. meta 4/T2 optimal=1800, faction optimal = 1580 ... WTF? This is worse than the meta 2 stat - not that optimal really matters much for blasters, its just an example of a stat that doesn't make sense.
Faction guns currently have a bit better damage (4% better), and a bit less energy consumption than Meta 4s. With spec skills at lvl 4 or better, T2 out damage them, and thats fine. I would suggest faction guns also get a better optimal + falloff (again 4% better), maybe even tracking to. Nothing game breaking, just 4%. Its stupid that in many cases faction guns have worse stats than meta 4
Tanya Powers wrote:(1)Until then faction ammo/guns/items are already way overpowered for IG tools not requiring the same training time than T2 and offering equivalent performances.
(2)Everything requiring long time investment in skills should bring proportional rewards. If you guys don't want to train skills then ask nex store to open and sell stuff for cash...
#1) Equivalent performance? Right... because My imperial navy mega Pulse with faction microwave is equivalent to a T2 mega pulse with Scorch (oh wait, no, less range and far less damage) At close range, they are similar when using imperial multi, because the T2 close range ammo isn't that great. Still T2s mean you have lvl 5 skills, and will outdamage
#2) Everything requiring massive ISK investment should bring proportional rewards. Its why CN-invulns are better than tech II invulns. Why deadspace hardeners are better than T2. Its why officer items are better, and its fine.
Faction guns cost a hell of a lot more than T2 guns.
For a long time faction items/ships have been able to compete with T2 items/ships. Faction frigs vs assault frigs. Drams vs inties. Pirate faction cruisers vs HACs. Faction hardeners vs T2 hardeners. Even Meta 4s (coming back to the point of this thread) - many meta 4 items command high prices because they are as good as the T2 with less skill needed. If a player wants to trade ISK (in game playing time) to make up for SP (out of game time), thats fine with me.
Currently guns are the only class of T2 that is significantly better than faction counterparts.
There is a reason Incursion fleets want pirate faction ships, but only t2 guns. |
AstarothPrime
Eternal Profiteers Eternal Syndicate
4
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Posted - 2012.01.09 13:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
Just make RTP more rare - problem solved. When they are back at 8M / piece we will have stuff fixed, and something to look forward to while scavanging 0sec wrecks :)
I. |
Salvia Olima
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
25
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Posted - 2012.01.11 06:55:00 -
[37] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote: +1 for fixing faction guns
Faction guns should be 2x more tolerable to overheat than T2, and thats all, no other buffs needed IMHO. For T2 ECM, T2 armor plates, T2 painter etc. a supporting skill should do the trick. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
52
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Posted - 2012.01.11 07:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
News flash this just in T2 guns are better than faction learn to readz, the skill you need to use them gives a bonus to them only and sense the damage multiplier was the same.......
T2 ammo lost its penalties a wile a go.........
YES T2 plates need a fix they are just inferior to meta 4 in all ways, not hard to do people even 1-5% hp+ would be enough. Look at T2/meta 4 shield extenders.....see it that tiny Hp difference.
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Biced
Retaliation Nation
2
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Posted - 2012.01.11 08:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
I likegirls wrote:The only point of T2 plates is that people can laugh at people that fit them.
pretty much this. maybe in a year from now when t2 plates will be cheaper than meta 4 it would make some sense to fit em to save some isk.
pretty funny every few months someone opens up a thread about meta 4 being better than t2 in every single way.
we know stfu thats why most of the meta 4 modules cost so much. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
142
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Posted - 2012.01.16 20:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
So, there seems to be two options here:
1) Buff T2 plates.
2) Reduce the drop rate of Rolled Tungsten plates.
Neither option seems to be all that difficult to implement, since it probably just involves a minor database tweak.
Oh, yeah, actually, there is the third option, which is even easier to implement:
3) Leave things as they are currently.
Does anyone really prefer the third option? |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
592
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Posted - 2012.01.16 20:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
I don't prefer the third option but I see no harm in it - it would hardly be the only T2 mod that's not as good as meta 4. And really, its not like buffer tanking needs boosting.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
50
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Posted - 2012.01.16 20:27:00 -
[42] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:So, there seems to be two options here:
1) Buff T2 plates.
2) Reduce the drop rate of Rolled Tungsten plates.
Neither option seems to be all that difficult to implement, since it probably just involves a minor database tweak.
Oh, yeah, actually, there is the third option, which is even easier to implement:
3) Leave things as they are currently.
Does anyone really prefer the third option?
All those people who had large stocks in meta 4 MWDs and ABs before the loot drop changes. They might be a bit butt hurt with options 1 or 2.
Just sayin' Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
592
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Posted - 2012.01.16 20:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote: All those people who had large stocks in meta 4 MWDs and ABs before the loot drop changes. They might be a bit butt hurt with options 1 or 2.
Just sayin'
Dude I must have lost 5 bil when they changed the loot tables on that **** totally unannounced.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.01.16 20:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
IMO, the difference between meta 4 and T2 modules should ONLY be fitting requirements. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
106
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Posted - 2012.01.17 13:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:IMO, the difference between meta 4 and T2 modules should ONLY be fitting requirements.
That would make T2 entirely pointless no? |
Axium Cog
Grand Solar Trinity Surely You're Joking
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 00:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
As per the OP,
As a general rule, the desirability of a module should always lie with the T2 module. It just makes sense, especially considering the extra training requirements.
Take the topic at hand for instance, Armor Plates. To use the 1600mm Rolled Tungsten, you need Hull Upgrades III, an 8 hour train. To use the T2 Steel plates, you need Hull Upgrades V, which for anything subcap, is only useful for the T2 Energized plates, and takes a whopping 10 days 7hours more to train.
So you spend over a week extra to train the skill to five and the only reward you get is a harder-to-fit version of what youve already been able to use, and a better energized plate.
So once again, no incentive to train for the T2 plates. T2 energized, sure, but not the plates.
I would suggest flipping the stats on the Meta4's with the T2. I think this would work for any instance of a meta4 being better than the T2 equivalent. Drop rate modification is for faction mods, not standard mods.
--- As a side note
I do NOT agree with the "solution" of adding more skills. Even adding one new skill can massively disrupt the balance of EVERYTHING. -1 for that suggestion.
Oh, and market is a reflection of desirability, not feasibility of use. The market is player controlled and should never be used as an indicator of balance in game mechanics. If i had the ISK i could buy every caracal on the market and reprocess them, which would drive them through the roof, but this doesnt make them OP. |
Goose99
682
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Posted - 2012.01.18 00:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
At least meta 4s get more expensive as everyone use them. Market balances cost for you, if CCP wouldn't balance stats.
Unlike faction guns, 100x the cost of t2 guns while still sucking hard. |
Axium Cog
Grand Solar Trinity Surely You're Joking
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 00:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:At least meta 4s get more expensive as everyone use them. Market balances cost for you, if CCP wouldn't balance stats. Unlike faction guns, 100x the cost of t2 guns while still sucking hard.
True but all this does is suppress the symptoms, not the cause. When balancing game mechanics you shouldnt have to rely on the players as a balancing mechanism. Kinda defeats the point of balancing, and seems more like market manipulations to me. |
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