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Tanis.
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Posted - 2007.05.25 13:23:00 -
[1]
Here you can discuss the upcomming feature: Heat!
You can find information about this and other new things here.
Please keep posts constructive and on topic. ____________________________ I break things.
GM Voodoo > That plan really straddles the fine line between genius and idiocy. Tanis. > And that differs from everything else I say how?
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Nerd Rage
Amarr Team Battle Lobster Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.05.25 13:59:00 -
[2]
So can anyone post some figures on how heat affects stuff?
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Sc0rpion
Minmatar MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:26:00 -
[3]
By the time I was able to overload my 8th turret, my first turret was at 70% damage. Elapsed time - 15 seconds.
Not an encouraging start.
The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Killmails are for pooftas. |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:32:00 -
[4]
Modules take damage and goes offline or is destroyed (to tuxford's choice).
(seen this sticky after I answered that in another place, so, yes, I posted what follows twice)
Repairing with a hull repairer (remote or not) would be a good thing. When all structure is repaired, the HP goes to the modules, or it goes to the modules first? Or an option in the hull repairer?
Anyway, who fits a hull repairer in combat? (appart from a BS help helping someone for a lvl 3 as it will fill the time while the structure repairer is at work)
It would add a role for the support ships, repairing the people who took too much heat in combat...
Also, will we have modules much like cap boosters but filled with coolant?
For those who have played mechwarrior, the heat took a big place there, there was an emergency shutdown, but we had a hotkey to cancel it (could be an option in the module for eve as realtime commands are bad), and it avoided the battlemech to explode (like modules should explode with heat), and there was a coolant tank that could get around twice (or 1,5x) the heat to 0. Also Heatsinks to reduce heat and such things.
There shoud be a secure offlining for modules at 25% HP (or any other value or wen it begins to take damage or you configure the %), this way, you can re-online later the module without docking, but the security would refuse overloading unless you turn off the security system (or change it to lower HP limit). -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Happy owner of a Vexor Navy Issue and few ishkurs. The Vexor Navy Issue is much more fun than the Myrmidon ! |
Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Nerd Rage So can anyone post some figures on how heat affects stuff?
The only item I have tested is rocket launchers and they will get a 15% RoF bonus when overloaded.
At the moment you can't overload 1MN MWDs on the test server but I would guess it will give a 15% speed bonus.
You can only enable overloading after the module has been activated so a bit of a bummer if you want to enable it before a fight start.
It would be great if the area to click to enable the overload was a bit bigger as it is quite fiddly to quickly activate several modules. It's a pain when you click the wrong part of the button and deactivate the module instead of overloading it... One solution would be to increase the spacing between the buttons and make the overload activation section a bit bigger (maybe as a small secondary button on top).
Also with more info displayed on the central HUD it might be a good idea to make it a little bit bigger as well. After all most people have migrated away from 1024x768 displays.
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sc0rpion By the time I was able to overload my 8th turret, my first turret was at 70% damage. Elapsed time - 15 seconds.
Not an encouraging start.
Yep, I've already complained about this before. There really needs to be a shortcut to overheat all hi/med/low slots in one click, holding shift and clicking overheat on a high slot should overheat all high slots and the same for mids and lows.
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Chi Quan
Jade Phoenix Deutschland Event-Horizon
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:53:00 -
[7]
bigger heat buttons please, i deactivat a module most of the time while i aim for the overload button
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.05.25 15:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Also, will we have modules much like cap boosters but filled with coolant?
I really like the idea of using coolant.
The current design where modules will get totally destroyed is interesting but sucks in a world with lag. Even if you do manage to survive a skirmish you can bet every module will pop as you won't be able to disable the overload in time.
A different approach would be to have heat per module and not damage. The heat will start to build up as soon as you activate the overloading and when it reaches 100% the module will get emergency offlined by the ships computer. Now to prevent the offlining to occur you have two options, stop the overloading (boring) or click on another button next to the module that make the module consume coolant from the cargohold and slowly cool it down. Different modules should consume different amount of coolant (tech 3 could get higher overload bonus but consume more coolant in the process for example).
This would add a nice second layer of micro management of a ship in combat, not only manage cap but also overload/coolant. Now if the lag monster would show up but not kill you all you have to do is go to a safe and slowly put each module online again.
And since everyone and their dog will be keen on having a set amount of coolant with them you can either make it an ice product or make it so it's only sold by NPCs in lowsec.
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Saladin
Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.25 15:55:00 -
[9]
So me and friends tried it out. The modules seem to be only good for a few activations before they were destroyed. 6 reps from a medium armor rep was kind of disappointed.
In any case, here is a change I would like to see. With lag as it is in the game now, there should be a setting to keep overloading on "autorepeat" or "manual". If overloading were available in some of the battles we see in EvE today, the current system (which keeps overheating on until you turn it off) would see a user overload a module, and then not be able to turn off loading before the module was destroyed. So the option to overload for ONLY one cycle needs to be retained for pratical purposes. ----
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.05.25 16:26:00 -
[10]
the whole system needs to be changed to make it so that a module actually has to heat up enough to take damage, this isn't heat right now... as soon as you overheat a module it takes constant damage? there is no fun or skill to micro that, just overheat to 100% and shutoff before it goes off line..
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Satsuki Kakuri
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Posted - 2007.05.25 16:56:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Satsuki Kakuri on 25/05/2007 16:58:14 Some queries and other things I ran into while checking this heat out:
I discovered the little toggle buttons after finding this thread. I was manually right clicking on each item and saying overheat for everything. Which wasn't even very useful while fighting belt rats cause I was staring at my buttons the entire fight. (and then I realized I was paying far more attention to the buttons and not the actual fight)
After discovering the buttons and testing those out, it appears that the mids (and probably the lows, I don't have anything with heat related in the lows atm) are too close to the high buttons to get the heat toggle button - I had to move my mids out to F8 to get that little *toggle heat* clickable area to show up. So I guess the buttons are too close together.
And is this heat doing splash damage? I turned on heat for the F6 gun and watched the F7 gun's damage go up instead of 6's. Probably the other guns' changed too but I wasn't paying that close attention to all of them. Same with the shield hardeners... the LSE took damage far faster then the actual hardener did.
How is this all related to each other? Or how is damage even calculated?
Also, with all the new flashies (green bars, red flashy bars, inactive flashy, active flashy), I had a hard time telling which module was active or not. I kept turn off guns I thought were already off but were actually on. A larger message saying that a gun is no longer active would be nice. Even harder is being able to tell that a gun went offline or is just not active. And then I kept hitting the one gun trying to turn it on and it was actually offline and I still don't know what the popup message was except it was several lines long which I just assumed the gun didn't work anymore. It was too short amongst all the 'you are hit for blah blah damage!' messages.
Why are there two different red bars in the heat bar? What is the difference between the two? There is only one popup for that entire bar and it doesn't tell me what that bar is actually showing me.
About that popup bar over the heat bar. It currently reads Heat Status (L/M/H) 0%/0%/0%
I would think I'd like to know my highs first, it just seems a bit backwards.
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.25 17:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Blind Man the whole system needs to be changed to make it so that a module actually has to heat up enough to take damage, this isn't heat right now... as soon as you overheat a module it takes constant damage? there is no fun or skill to micro that, just overheat to 100% and shutoff before it goes off line..
/signed
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Cur
Minmatar Dawn of a new Empire Pure.
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Posted - 2007.05.25 18:18:00 -
[13]
Highslots overheat too fast compared to minimal benefit. I was using 8 1400mm artillery and by the second volley, all of them were offlined.
Graphic effects for shield hardeners continue after they have been overheated and offlined.
"What is best in life?" "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women." |
Sevani
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.25 18:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sevani on 25/05/2007 18:32:35 Edited by: Sevani on 25/05/2007 18:31:32 I think the heat idea as planned is not a good way to spend time developing EvE.
Before CCP implements any feature they need to ask themselves, "How will this feature make the game more fun." I am unsure how heat will meet that goal. EvE is already a insanely complex system that requires an unnecessary number of clicks to just start shooting at something.
With heat, the only reward is a percentage improvement for a module, with the risk being all modules becoming destroyed or unusable until you dock. This plan is not thought out completely. Boosters are a much better idea for that type of percentage increase. However boosters are very rare and virtually inaccessible to the population.
To see all the work being done on the game for heat, while other features could be a better use of development time. For example: Stored Ship configurations, weapon load out presets, improved notification of combat messages, or better availability of boosters.
-7 |
ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:22:00 -
[15]
I don't think module damage is a good idea. It makes it harder for those living out of poses, because they cannot repair the modules. And it also is bad because you modules can pop very easily if you cannot turn off the overheat them due to lag.
I think overheating should result in the module being offlined.
Make Mining Better |
Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2007.05.25 21:06:00 -
[16]
"Heat level critical..." "Shut down sequence initiated.." "Shutting down !" "Flushing coolant!" "Heat level ... Nominal ..." "Shutdown sequence... Aborted"
Ouuu Yeahh !
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Valator Uel
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.05.26 01:07:00 -
[17]
I think people are forgetting the reason overloading is being implemented and its intended use. According to Oveur, overloading is a "last ditch effort to save your ship". It is NOT meant to be used at the START of combat but rather when things are going bad and you know you'll lose the ship if you don't overload.
Stop whining and trying to make this a feature that is done at the start of combat. Otherwise we might as well boost all modules in the game by 10% and remove overloading (and therefore heat) from the game. -----------------------------------------------------
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Sevani
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.26 04:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Valator Uel I think people are forgetting the reason overloading is being implemented and its intended use. According to Oveur, overloading is a "last ditch effort to save your ship". It is NOT meant to be used at the START of combat but rather when things are going bad and you know you'll lose the ship if you don't overload.
Stop whining and trying to make this a feature that is done at the start of combat. Otherwise we might as well boost all modules in the game by 10% and remove overloading (and therefore heat) from the game.
I think that is a valid point. I'm just not sure the methods they are using to translate that into actual game play meet that goal. I think the responses of how people are using the overload feature, demonstrate that people don't see it the same way as CCP. If indeed they want it to be as Oveur says, then the mechanics need to change.
Most responses I've seen only show what is wrong with the heat implementation. My own testing confirms this. I haven't seen any posts, nor experienced any positive uses of heat. So again I ask, "what is fun or useful about heat?" I don't know everything, so if someone does have some positive uses or strategies I'd be interested in hearing them.
-7 |
Valator Uel
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.05.26 04:46:00 -
[19]
I have to admit that only allowing a couple of cycles before a module explodes is a bit short.
On the sidenote, didn't the devs also say something about heat being linked to T3? Perhaps the current implementation of Heat is just the begining and the devs have plans for more interesting things... in which case it would be nice if the devs could clarify their intentions. -----------------------------------------------------
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Pratiken
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Posted - 2007.05.26 07:41:00 -
[20]
So will Titans be able to overheat their Doomsday Devices?
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Jean Korr
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Posted - 2007.05.26 08:51:00 -
[21]
I'm also thinking heat isn't cool (ahahah) as it should. Why:
A. to much effort spent on UI. This is merely a graphical problem. I would like to see an "Emergency button" which would overload everything. When you know you're about to die, you really don't have the time to set manually 10+ modules to an overload state. B. Emergency sequence: If CCP really want that overloading your module is an emergency sequence, then do so. Give the module an insane bonus (+400% damage for weapon, +400% boost for reppers/boosters) then offline them. Every module on overload add to general heat (please, don't do 3 layers heat, it add to much complexity), the bigger module, the more heat. I even don't know why you put up an heat indicator. The heat system should be done by module. Upon overload, damage a bit the module. C. Overheating should be automatic in certain cases: When taking structural damage, reppers/boosters should overheat automatically; after all, you're pretty dead in structure.
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Tanko Tanki
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Posted - 2007.05.26 08:55:00 -
[22]
I don't think so. A DDdevice takes 1 day to recharge. Overcharge it and it will be gone in less than a minute
Btw. I agree with the guy who said that overheated modules should shutdown before they explode. If it's not an option than a overcharged module should last longer. ATM you don't even have the time to overcharge the last module of a row that the first module is gone. Not to mention the effects of overcharge+lag: worse than drink+drive... ("Lots of petitons coming I see" said Yoda). A solution may be this: - standard mode: modules overcharge the way they do now (maybe a bit more slowly) but when they reach 90% of damage they shutdown. this mode gives a minor bouns like 7.5 or 10% - Panic mode: You are alone against 5695654363 enemy ships. You know you're dead. You activate the panic mode (5 fast clicks on the cap star in the center of hud). This mode overheats the modules way faster than the standard mode and it has no protection against burnout but it gives massive boost, something like 50% more damage for guns or +50% efficency for armor repairers.
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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.26 09:38:00 -
[23]
Well, heat should be a last-ditch thing. But I think that heat destroying modules is a bit much, it should offline them. Whats the point in saving your ship via overheating, if it has no mods left on it? And what about the guy whos ganking you?, you shouldn't be able to overheat your stuff just to deprive him of your loot.
Also the interface needs a bit of tweaking, with the way lag works your first overheated module may be offlined by the time you are able to overheat the last module. We need to be able to set modules on overheat mode faster. Like hitting ctrl + clicking the module.
Make Mining Better |
Kosakova Intrinnae
Minmatar DEATH IINDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2007.05.26 10:30:00 -
[24]
when i1st heard of heat and "turning my guns up to 11" i thought i would be able to turn my tank down to 9 so to speek to compensate for my guns.
The current system is hard to manage atm as most people have already said, a shift + click to overload mods would be good imo. and also modules being damaged as soon as you overload them, i think they should only start taking damage when the corasponding heat bar is at ctrical level (75% eg). this way you could manage it better.
but i have saved my tyhpoon on test server by over heating armour hardeners + repaier amount but i had to turn them off pretty quick agian. eventure my hardener went boom and that waws the death of me.
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Futher Bezluden
Minmatar The Suicide Kings FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.05.26 12:44:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 26/05/2007 12:55:03 atm, as of yesterday, you can toggle overload before starting up the mod. I set all my guns to overload prior to activating and worked like a charm -blew all of them off my ship in 3-5 volleys.
Sure, they give some really nice bonuses, but as everyone says, "They are a last ditch effort". HEAT atm is a really good way to make sure your enemy is denied loot.
It would be wonderful for the modules into a forced shutdown period (not offline) for 30s once overloaded. The current time it takes for a weapon to blow up is so fast you might only want it as a single initial volley (for those with damage not rof bonus) then quickly deactivate it so they don't all blow up.
I think this is why some pilots want a quick "toggle overload" button so they get that initial gank strike, then toggle it off for a few volleys while the "heat" diminishes until they can toggle for another massive gank strike.
-edit: The idea of all logistics ships having bonuses for "remote hull reps" that could fix damage suffered -so long as the modules is not in use to prevent a ship from maintaining overload forever simply because a logistics ship is "HEAT tanking" him. Conversely, if the module activates while being "repaired", why not have there be the chance of damage to the logistics module at work.
THUKKER -Be Paranoid
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Domination.
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:03:00 -
[26]
Test results:
- All Modules with the same fitting area (high/med/low) can (?) get damage if one module in that area is overdoaded.
- If an Module gets to 100% damage, it shuts down and offlines, and cannot be onlined again. (until repaired i hope :p )
This is possibly broken for passive modules (Inertia Stab, armor plating/Heat sink was tested.) because they stay online.
- armor repper stays online too with 100% damage, and can be activated and overloaded once and then shuts down again, but stays online, and can be activated again for one cycle.
- on my punisher, i could not get to more than 50% heat, until all modules were dead in that row :)
Misc.: The little overload indicator on the module icon can not be clicked if there is another module above it in the rows left of the speedometer.
clicking the overload indicator when module is not active, will start the module overloaded next time it is activated, but has no indication of its current state. (i.e. you dont see if the module will start overloaded on next activation or not.)
The Highslot modules were dying very fast, especialy the salvager, which was not even active. It seems to have less hitpoints than the guns. This swift death of the highslot modules is probably because of the guns, which cycle much more often, than say , armor repper, and so more often trigger a 'wo wants some damage, hmm?' calculation.
Conclusion:
Come on, people, Heat is a great idea, but not like this. As it is now, you can only overheat a module for maybe 1-3 minutes total before you need to repair it.
Thats plain boring. a set damage amount per time is way to simple, and doesnt even scratch the full potential you have with heat.
Ideas:
Every active module produces heat. the heat level of a ship without overloading, should raise to about 50% and stay there. You could use 1-(capacitor/shield formula) for heat dissipation, meaning your ship can quickly spread heat when slighly overheated (70% heat), but above that, it can overheat quickly and thus starting to damage modules.
By this You can make heat something realy interesting, because you can actually micromanage your overheat status, without damaging modules, but only if you are quick. For example 2 repper cycles are ok, but 3 on overload will push you in the red, where you risk damage to modules, and have to switch the repper off for a cycle or two, to let your Heat status get back to yellow.
In the future, you can also make Balancing changes to modules, by having them produce more heat, or be more resistant to overheating. Like tech2 could have higher bonus during overheat, but producing lot more heat also, or being damaged more easyli.
Please make this beautifull heat idea not so clumsy, let it shine!
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Domination.
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:05:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Di Jiensai on 26/05/2007 14:11:18 Ideas summary :
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Every active module produces heat.
- Imagine heat as a 'inverse capacitor'.
The Capacitor gets recharged constantly, and your modules substract their cap use from it.
Make Heat reduce constantly with the 1-(cap/shield formula) and have modules add their heat to it.
- Ships with all modules active but not overloaded, should be able to vent all the heat they produce, and keep below 70% (max heat dissipation)
- Overloaded modules produce a lot more heat, and thus quickly drive your heat status above the max "recharge" point, where you have to switch some modules off, so it goes down again, or start to take damage when heat gets above 90%
- 10% chance of module damage evey 5 seconds the ship is above 90% heat.
20% chance every 5 seconds above 92 % up to 50% chance every 5 seconds above 98%
- When a module gets damaged, it switches off. it does not offline until it is destroyed.
- Damaged Passive modules keep online, but get their damage in percent multiplyer on their bonus (30% damage = 70% efficiency)
- Add a 'heat dissipator' module that helps reducing heat faster, so you can keep your mods on overload by sacrificing some slots.
- oh, and remove the diffrent heat bars, and replace it by one for all modules on ship.
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Ozzie Asrail
Exploited
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:07:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ozzie Asrail on 26/05/2007 14:06:57 Heat: It's not Hot :(
OK excuse the pun... There are some major issues with heat and reading the DevBlog that said Rev2 is almost ready for a code freeze and release I gotta post this.
1. Tactics.
There is none relating to heat, it's simply turn on then either wait for your modules\ship to die or you then immediatly turn off after 1 or 2 cycles. That really is the entire gameplay relating to heat, where's the tactics?
Destroying any thought of tactics even more is the apparent "random" damage that comes from heat. I turned on my 2x LAR's then hit overload. 2 cycles of my reppers later my damage control offlined with 100% dmg, 1x EAN was at 80%, 1x EAN was at 0%, 1x MagStab was 45%, 1x Magstab was 0%, 1x LAR was 0%, 1x LAR was 5%.
How can i be expected to make good tactical decisions when it's comlpletly random as to the downsides I encounter? How is there any sort of tactics when basically it's an on-off feature?
2. Speed
The buildup of heat is way, way too fast. As show above that was only 2 cycles of 2 reppers and already 1 module had gone offline and 2 more close to it. Even just 1 reload of a heavy cap booster had me at 30% heat on the mid slots. Even worse is that modules sometimes seem start taking damage immediatly.
1 or 2 cycles of heat before modules start dieing. That's not really going to change any outcomes of fights.And alot of the time the close ones also last a long time. In the grand scheme of a 10 minute fight 20 seconds of overload will not make any difference. The speed that heat breaks things also contributes to the lack of tactics as I talked about ealier.
3. Ballance
I'm still trying to figure alot of the ballance out at the moment but has it even been looked at? It eems every mod is overloadable by 15% and some mods that should (?) have overloads like MWD's don't have them yet. Looking at the other mods is ther any reasons things like a DCU and EAN has 10hp and a magstab or repper has 20hp or a gun has 80hp? As far as i can see no changes to HP values has been made with the introducion of Heat?
Heat values by slots. This is the main ballance issue in regards to the effects of Heat. Armour tanking is a lowslot setup but as are damage mods and as is the DCU (which nearly all pvp ships of any type fit) yet sheild tanking is midslots and does not share slots with damage mods.
Why are armour takns risking both tanking AND damage when they want to overload their tank? Shield tanks will have other mods in some mid slots but i'd argue that losign a spare midslot mod like a scram is less important than a magstab. In the same vein is the difference between a 2x LAR setup and a XL Booster + Amp, 2 heat generating LAR's v 1 heat generating booster and amp. Also EAN's 10hp - Invulns 20hp.
Part 2 below... -----
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Ozzie Asrail
Exploited
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:07:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ozzie Asrail on 26/05/2007 14:07:45 cont...
I urge CCP to rethink the whole concept of heat. It needs to be fun, tactical and effective becuase currently it is none of those things.
My Idea's
Heat should be a shipwide value, think of it as a finite amount of coolant or someting. Heat should be analogue not digital, there should be skill involved in setting your moduile values and there should be skill and tactics involved in tailoring your ship to the situation. Heats downsides should not be random chance.
Every ship has 100 coolant and by default every active module takes an equal % of that to total 100. Should I want to overload my guns I need to pump more coolant into it but that has got too be transfered from a differnt mod. Say i'm obnly using 1 of 2 reppers, the repper thats not being used at all could have all it's coolant syphoned out and into the guns. Of course without any coolant if I need to use it then i need to pump it back into that repper. On a similar note i might want to pump half the coolant from all my guns into my reppers.
Analogue control. A basic stacking penalty and diminishing returns would mean that dialing down reppers to 0% efficiancy wouldn't mean I could boost the guns to 200% or anyting like that. But it would be analogue control and it would allow pilot skill and tactics to ballance the exact needs of damage\tank\cap\etc to the specific engagment they are fighting. Perhaps a few "presets" could enable quick and rough control then let the pilot tune it during flight.
It will be effective because it would enable a semi-stable setup to be used without major damage for longer periods of time. It woudn't simply be a last resort but would be a another tool for skilled players to master and another feature of EVE that lets a "good" lower SP pilot be competative against a "bad" higher SP player.
It's also fun! I'm sorry but being in a gang deep in 0.0 and blowing up your guns and having to drag you and all your friends 30+ jmups back home to get it fixed is not fun. Winning a fight because you overloaded but getting ganked by a single inty 1 minute later because you have no tank left is not fun. Losing a fight and then clocking "overload" on 20 differnt icons and still losing, how is that any more enjoyable than jsut getting ganked without heat? -----
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:16:00 -
[30]
modules shouldn't be destroyid and removed, only destroyid so you would have to repair them again.
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Kil'Roy
Minmatar The Rat Patrol
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Posted - 2007.05.26 18:24:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Kil''Roy on 26/05/2007 18:25:30 I tried out heat on test and think that it isn't going to work in it's current state.
Heat builds up too quick for the increase in damage. If your modules are going to blow up in less than a minute, make it so they do two or three times the damage.
I say keep it as is, with the modules taking damage right away, (to keep the gankers from abusing it), and make it so the increase in weapons fire is greater.
This may discourage the ganker from seeking quick kills, unless he can repair nearby, and help the defender counter close to equal odds.
Another option is to have multiple levels of overload, IE. 15% overload over 10 minutes before damage, Followed by 20 min reduced activity to cool down, docking dosen't help.
80-200% overload, taking damage right away, modules could be gone in under two minutes, Followed 20 min reduced activity to cool down, docking dosen't help.
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.26 22:51:00 -
[32]
What I taught heat would be, and think it should be, was very similar to what Di Jiensai posted, with one small difference.
There wouldn't be a % chance of module damage above a certain point. Instead modules would take damage when they tried to create heat that couldn't "fit" into the ship's heat sink. The heat "overflow" would be converted to module damage.
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Santa Anna
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Posted - 2007.05.27 00:05:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Santa Anna on 27/05/2007 00:06:33
Originally by: Kil'Roy Edited by: Kil''Roy on 26/05/2007 18:25:30 I tried out heat on test and think that it isn't going to work in it's current state.
Heat builds up too quick for the increase in damage. If your modules are going to blow up in less than a minute, make it so they do two or three times the damage.
I say keep it as is, with the modules taking damage right away, (to keep the gankers from abusing it), and make it so the increase in weapons fire is greater.
This may discourage the ganker from seeking quick kills, unless he can repair nearby, and help the defender counter close to equal odds.
Another option is to have multiple levels of overload, IE. 15% overload over 10 minutes before damage, Followed by 20 min reduced activity to cool down, docking dosen't help.
80-200% overload, taking damage right away, modules could be gone in under two minutes, Followed 20 min reduced activity to cool down, docking dosen't help.
Just got through testing heat and IMO it's brilliant.
You can "preheat" your modules (and this survives going through a gate) so campers don't necessarily have an advantage -- their prey can be preheated as well.
I'm not sure how the repair costs would scale (I was stuck using an alt to test so only used frig guns) but I can't imagine anyone preheating their weapons for an unknown target simply for the hassle factor. If repair costs for the modules on TQ are high then that would be a huge deterrent as well.
The advantage (15% rof) is enough to tip the scales in the first minute or so of an even fight, but likely not worth it in a fight that the ganker would clearly win. In large fights there's also the threat of lag not actually unheating your weapons until they've croaked, which should limit the use of this feature to when it is really a necessity.
It would also provide some "home field advantage" to players able to repair or refit nearby which, IMO, is good.
I do wish it was a little easier to accomplish, though. Right clicking on 8 different modules halfway through a fight won't be easy.
edit: nerf eve-o forum software |
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.27 09:04:00 -
[34]
My problem is by the time i arribe to my 7th turret my first turret is already at 50% dmg. Please one button for "overload my high slot modules", another for mids and another for lows. If there are a lot modules on the same range slot its a pain do , right click, select overload.
Or if you cant do that. Then add a hotkey something like if i press my currents hotkeys with another key pressed i overload that module
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Dei
Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.27 12:37:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Dei on 27/05/2007 12:37:32 I was under the impression that you could underload other modules in order to balance the heat so that damage does not occur. So for instance, you overload all turrets/launchers but underload your reppers so you do more damage but have less tanking capabilities.
The system as it stands makes it useless for anything but small hostile engagements. The overloading doesn't last on anything for missioning, fleet battles are gonna run dry within 2 minutes, and you're gonna have to go back to nearest station to repair if you're running a gate camp after every engagement.
Just seems silly that a new feature is provided when in a mundane situation you're not gonna actually use it. This is of course, if it is 'Heat' content finished, not just testing overloading then adding other features to it. ---
The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack |
BobsBrother
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:16:00 -
[36]
The build up of heat is way, way to fast. As people have stated by the time you hit the last gun the first is going into melt down.
Whats the point of using it if it takes so little time to overheat the module, i would think maybe a minute befor it hits meltdown would be ok, (for those times when lag takes a peek at your connection) but not how it is at them moment.
Although when i tried using a large cap booster with 800 charges in it it never ever got hot.
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Moraguth
Amarr Rangers
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Di Jiensai Edited by: Di Jiensai on 26/05/2007 14:11:18 Ideas summary :
-
Every active module produces heat.
- Imagine heat as a 'inverse capacitor'.
The Capacitor gets recharged constantly, and your modules substract their cap use from it.
Make Heat reduce constantly with the 1-(cap/shield formula) and have modules add their heat to it.
- Ships with all modules active but not overloaded, should be able to vent all the heat they produce, and keep below 70% (max heat dissipation)
- Overloaded modules produce a lot more heat, and thus quickly drive your heat status above the max "recharge" point, where you have to switch some modules off, so it goes down again, or start to take damage when heat gets above 90%
- 10% chance of module damage evey 5 seconds the ship is above 90% heat.
20% chance every 5 seconds above 92 % up to 50% chance every 5 seconds above 98%
- When a module gets damaged, it switches off. it does not offline until it is destroyed.
- Damaged Passive modules keep online, but get their damage in percent multiplyer on their bonus (30% damage = 70% efficiency)
- Add a 'heat dissipator' module that helps reducing heat faster, so you can keep your mods on overload by sacrificing some slots.
- oh, and remove the diffrent heat bars, and replace it by one for all modules on ship.
I have to admit, this is pretty much how I envisioned heat when they first started talking about it. How all modules produce a steady amount of heat, some mods take heat away faster. Things you do (activating, overloading, shutting down modules) affect how much heat is produced. When heat gets to a certain point, modules start taking damage and go offline to protect themselves at a certain point.
I think I saw "remote hull repairer" as part of the Triage Module benefits. If this is in, it would help make it so people could overload their mods longer?
Anyway, in short..
/signed
good game |
ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:54:00 -
[38]
Ok heres what I think needs to happen.
Overheating should cause modules to go offline, rather than destroying (or damaging the module) This is because the damage part of it causes several problems,
1. being that damage is only repairable via a station or outpost, meaning that players who primarily live out of poses would be at a disadvantage.
2. I can say if the damage thing is implemented its main use will just be to deprive the winner of the battle of his loot, rather than saving ones ship. If this happens you better double or even triple the amount of named t1 mods dropped by rats and cut the time and material cost of t2 mods by half, most mods are 'recycled' through several owners before they get destroyed. This would cut down the 'life' of each mod significantly, and increase demand.
Now with overloading you should have an option to overheat a whole row of slots. I usually separate my mods so offensive mods are in one row, defensive in another, and if i have ewar or something that will occupy another row.
But there should also could be shortcuts to overload, like having caps lock will make it so that the key combinations also overload the modules when they activate them.
Make Mining Better |
Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 22:03:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Dristra on 27/05/2007 22:09:07 The impression i got when i tried it was: not fun and unpredictable, its like having a rabid dog chained to your foot
Edit(addition): The repair process is also rather time consuming, you should be able to just right click a module [or select multiple] and choose repair
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
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D Gelalder
Gallente The Praxis Initiative
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Posted - 2007.05.28 07:26:00 -
[40]
There is a "repair all" button in the lower left corner of the repair window. ( in station )
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Alexi Borizkova
Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:55:00 -
[41]
I'd like a right click ship "Repair all modules" feature as well if repair is going to become an actual factor.
This does make station camping a bit interesting, just overheat all your guns for the few seconds you might get a target secure in teh knowledge hte fight will be over fast and you can redock for repairs.
However, heat is going to be a dangerous siren's song for 0.0 dwellers that don't rely on stations but use POS instead.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.28 12:40:00 -
[42]
Time for repair POS modules,make em consume mechanical parts + electronics.
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Nymos
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.28 17:11:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Aki Yamato "Heat level critical..." "Shut down sequence initiated.." "Shutting down !" "Flushing coolant!" "Heat level ... Nominal ..." "Shutdown sequence... Aborted"
Ouuu Yeahh !
that sounds pretty much like mechwarrior :D. i loved to alpha strike stuff with the heaviest weapons and just flush some coolant into my systems --
Every time a carebear dies an angel gets their wings (murder one)
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Andreya
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Posted - 2007.05.28 17:30:00 -
[44]
Im just putting in my two cents. remove heat :( pvp is already pretty hectic as it is, micromanaging all the little buttons and overviews.... it wouldnt be such an issue if you guys redesigned the gameplay HUD... but i havent seen any changes yet.
hint* hotkeys would be appreciated! (keep at range A, B, C,.. Orbit A, B, C.... Ram (lead target)
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Requiescat
Caldari Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.05.28 20:47:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Requiescat on 28/05/2007 20:47:57 TBH, I would much rather see devs working on stuff that people have asked for (This and this for example) than going off on a tangent and introducing a new "feature" that will cause thousands of headaches and completely defeat the purpose of a staggering number of mods in the game (Damage mods, repper/booster speed rigs, etc.).
Think about the ship setups featured in videos like Wave of Mutilation and Vindication 3... Overheating will allow you to get the same performance out of regular, inexpensive gear on a standard battleship that you would get out of the billions and billions worth of faction and officer they have strapped on their faction BS, and all you have to do is hit the little overheat button.
Why are you trying to kill EVE? <-- Sig starts here.
Victory - Honor = Loss |
Altaris Dorrick
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Posted - 2007.05.29 01:32:00 -
[46]
I think the essential problem here is that there's some confusion in how CCP *wants* heat to work, how players expect it to work, and how the dev team is actually implementing it.
There are really two useful ways that I see a concept of *heat* being implemented. The first is what most players would have expected, and that heat would be another manageable resource of your ship similar to capacitor. Modules could be turned off/on/active/overload to change total heat produced, and as things got into the very toasty region stuff would start taking damage or would go offline. Benefits from overloading would be small but noticeable, similar to how they are currently implemented, but duration would be much longer, and things would happen in a much more predictable and controlled fashion. Numerous posts exist in this thread outlining implementations of this type of heat in detail, so I won't bother saying anything else about it.
The other way to implement heat, and how CCP apparently wants it to work, is that it's a last-ditch shot to try and save your ship before it pops. If this is the case, then the current implementation is nothing short of awful for this type of system. Firstly, you'd need to make it drastically easier to overload modules. If you want a last-ditch type heat system, then the only place you're going to be using it is in an emergency, when you need results *fast*. Clicking sequentially on dozens of tiny hairline buttons is not effective for this, and some type of fast activation (either with a row-activate shortcut or a held modifier (ctrl+click or ctrl+f1 kind of idea) must be implemented. This should be implemented regardless, but last-ditch style heat is useless without it. Additionally, if we're talking last-ditch save your ship, the benefits you currently get from overloading are basically useless. A 15% ROF bonus to your weapons or 15% cycle time reduction on a shield repper isn't going to save anybody. If it's last-ditch burn out your modules to save your ship, it should be dramatic. Rate of fire or cycle time bonuses don't help when you aren't going to live more than a couple more cycles. It would need to be damage percentage boosts, total armor/shield repaired boosts (possibly also costing more cap when overloaded?), and the percentages need to be much higher. As it stands, modules only last a few cycles on overload anyways (fine if it's last-ditch), but the percentage benefits would have to be in the 50%-100% boost region if you want overloaded modules to have any chance of saving any ships, as seems to be the intention. If you can double the damage of your turrets for 15 seconds (and fry them in the process), it might just be enough to pop that BS before it launches that last fatal barrage of cruise missiles. Firing 15% faster probably won't even be noticed by the enemy before you're dead.
Additional notes: - It would be a crime against humanity if overloading of ABs and MWDs were not implemented before release. - The three separate heat meters are wholly unnecessary, even for the slow micromange-style heat system. One common heat bar is perfectly fine for that, and the way the last-ditch heat system works (taking example from parts of the current system) a heat bar is basically unimportant anyways, and could be removed (modules seem to take notable damage regardless of whether the heat is up or not, and are fully damaged before heat even gets up past half) -Some clarity is needed to indicate how each module contributes to heat, and how damage is taken. Do modules of different sizes have different HP, and damage is dealt evenly? Is it biased towards the overloaded module or online modules at all? etc... -If micromanage-style heat is implemented, some additional heat mitigating modules (either passive/active heatsinks, or ammunition-based coolant shots) should definitely be implemented to expand on the really interesting strategies this type of heat system introduces.
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.05.29 12:27:00 -
[47]
The overwhelmingly consistant thing about CCP's current implementation of heat is this: no one likes it.
It has no real effectiveness in the outcome of a fight. If you're losing a fight, overloading isn't going to make a difference. The paltry performance increase produced by overloading modules for a few seconds won't make a bit of difference in a fight.
It's hard to use: the interface is clunky and inefficient, hard to control and the visual information and performance feedback of what is actually going on is hard to interpret and manage at best.
I think that the majority of the player base was expecting something different: another layer of complexity and management, similar to how the capacitor currently works, with the ability to push the system beyond it's performance limits, resulting in some risk to offline or damage modules. This type of design would lend overloading to be used on a regular basis in combat.
The current design is the exact opposite of this. The actual utility and practicality of overloading is so limited that it's not going to be used, much less used with great effect, in the majority of fights, if not almost 100% of all fights. The conditions that would render it's use an advantage are so few and far between that it's practically non existant.
With all the effort that went into redesigning the UI, that same effort could have been better spent completely redesigning the Drone Interface, something that almost all players would find usefull, and be using a large majority of the time in PVP and PVE.
I have tested overloading in detail, noting it's effects- it's benefits and drawbacks. I have yet to test it in a duel or practice fight on the test server. Why? Because it's so useless, it's not even worth testing in an actual fight.
Other people have tried using overloading in fights with myself, hoping to make some difference, but all that resulted was their ship dying faster than normal as all of their modules went offline and I destroyed them once they had no tank and no more offensive modules.
All my experiences so far with overloading is that it has contributed to the destruction of the ships that use it, rather than saving them.
I know that the design of heat/overloading isn't final, but I assume at this stage in the game (no pun intended) it is near it's final shape with respect to how the devs would like to see it implemented. Why else would you release it from closed testing?
In my opinion the concept needs to be scrapped completely and redesigned from the ground up. The interface of the modules isn't that bad, with respect to showing what modules are/are not overloaded, but the actual design of how heat/overloading works as it is now is completely useless.
Personally I'd like to see the devs issue a poll to the players and see how we as players would envision heat, how we would find it usefull and fun and how it would add depth and complexity to gameplay in Eve.
The majority of the suggestions players have posted about heat have been fairly close to each other in concept. If so many players have similar ideas about how they think it should work, I would think that the devs would have had similar thoughts. It makes me wonder as to how heat happened to evolve into it's current form.
Because I said so...
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Antarus Lars
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Posted - 2007.05.29 14:42:00 -
[48]
Get the devs to play Mechwarrior - Seriously....
Each ship should a heat level, based on ship size and class (also T2 ships should have better heat values.
-100% Red - Damage taken -75% Orange - Sweet spot - Best for combat -50% Standard - All items active -25% Blue - Cooled (some modules turned off) -00% Black - Critical mass reached, emergancy shutdown
Also you could have the option of not shutting down and allowing you to go critical mass and explode in splash damamge.
This can also be the final excuse to boost amarr.
Ie
Zealot
150 Natural heatsink
Overload the guns will add +10 and destroy them,
Turn off your repper u can keep on those guns overloaded, simple.
Also heatsinks could also reduce this amount by 10% a level or summat i dunno
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Greme
Amarr Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.05.29 17:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Antarus Lars Get the devs to play Mechwarrior - Seriously....
Each ship should a heat level, based on ship size and class (also T2 ships should have better heat values.
-100% Red - Damage taken -75% Orange - Sweet spot - Best for combat -50% Standard - All items active -25% Blue - Cooled (some modules turned off) -00% Black - Critical mass reached, emergancy shutdown
Also you could have the option of not shutting down and allowing you to go critical mass and explode in splash damamge.
This can also be the final excuse to boost amarr.
Ie
Zealot
150 Natural heatsink
Overload the guns will add +10 and destroy them,
Turn off your repper u can keep on those guns overloaded, simple.
Also heatsinks could also reduce this amount by 10% a level or summat i dunno
IMO, this is a far better way of implementing heat, and not just because I enjoyed the mechwarrior games! It leads to tactical decisions of the RELATIVE overloading and underloading of modules, or complete inactivation. Rather than a simple 15 second bosot to gun damage before they go pop approach.
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Christopher Dalran
Gallente Deadly Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.29 18:30:00 -
[50]
Please find whoever made the UI for overloading and stick him on a screen running 1600x1200. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
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Dodona
Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.05.29 19:36:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Dodona on 29/05/2007 19:35:32
Originally by: Christopher Dalran Please find whoever made the UI for overloading and stick him on a screen running 1600x1200.
It is exceedingly difficult to know how much ammo you have left.
And way too easy to accidentally overload your modules and a few moments later wonder why you aren't repping anymore.
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agel blonde
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Posted - 2007.05.29 23:43:00 -
[52]
i understand that heat is supposed to be a way of a last ditch effort to save your ship.
But in some instances it is tactical to consider what you can to to sway a battle, making pvp more interesting.
In particular on testing manticore stealth bomber you can only fire 4 salvos with 3 cruise launchers fitted with them on overload before the cloak you have fitted gets 100% damage and is unusable until you repair it at a stn
sometimes you know when u need that little bit of extra dmg to hit someone, plus dont wanna be heading back to a repairshop every few attacks
the penalty seems a little steep for ships with fewer slots and maybe needs to be lowered according to ship slot layout (or size) |
William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.30 00:48:00 -
[53]
Umm, can anyone clarify how exactly this works? I turn on heat and seem to get random damage to my modules. They also turn off upon getting damaged. At the same time a bar fills up above my capacitor indicator, but I have no idea what this does....
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Altaris Dorrick
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Posted - 2007.05.30 04:17:00 -
[54]
Well, the bar above the capacitor is supposed to indicate two things - if I'm reading it correctly, the red section for each slot type shows the average damage of the modules of that type (or something) and the white bar indicates the current heat level of that slot. I would *expect* that damage would be related to how hot things currently are - but as it stands this doesn't seem to really be the case. Modules take damage as soon as you overload them, even if heat is low - and the damage appears to be very randomly distributed to all modules in that row, INCLUDING modules that are completely offline.
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Ladyah Liandri
VMF-214 Blacksheep
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:03:00 -
[55]
Heat suggestion:
Don't hide "Toggle overloading" in the freaking module's menu. I'd rather like to see a dialog-element directly at a module's icon to switch it on / off.
The current clickety-click is just a pain.
Heat only seems to make sense in edge-of-disaster kind of situations. I don't see myself fiddling dwarfed menus when hell breaks lose spiced up with lag.
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Professor Smartypants
The Cause
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:29:00 -
[56]
amarr suggestion:
Heat Sink II : added special bonus, remove negative effects (chance of module damage) of Heat
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.05.30 13:20:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ladyah Liandri Heat suggestion:
Don't hide "Toggle overloading" in the freaking module's menu. I'd rather like to see a dialog-element directly at a module's icon to switch it on / off.
The current clickety-click is just a pain.
Actually you can, the part of the module the is turning green when you activate overload also works as a toggle button. However it only works as long as you don't have a slot above it populated with modules.
We're sorry, something happened.
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Z'Blikker
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Posted - 2007.05.30 13:39:00 -
[58]
Another heat suggestion to balance the damage:
You have two heat-pools, one for the powergrid (mw) and one for the cpu (tf).
If the heat in one pool gets over a threshold (maybe 50 %) a certain ammount of damage is dealt to all modules. The actual damage ammount for each module is calculated by:
d : damage dealt to module hd: damage generated by heat pn: powergrigneed of the module ps: powergrid of the ship
d = hd * (pn / ps)
i think this model is more fun, because if you overheat your guns it is more likly that your guns and armourrepairers gets the damage. if you overclock your hardeners it is more likly your gyros or sensorboosters get the damage.
the generation of heat could use a similar model. But i have no time at the moment.
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Unfamed II
FinFleet
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Posted - 2007.05.30 13:49:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Unfamed II on 30/05/2007 13:47:57 Dunno if this has been suggested yet, but here goes: Make modules have cap-like damage, which slowly regenerates. If it hits 75%, theres a (rather high, 75% maybe)chance of the mod blowing up (going offline), and the chance increases the more you "heat up" the mod. Roll the dice at every activation cycle of the mod. Or increase amount of rolls.
75% damage = one roll next cycle, 75% chance of mod going offline until repaired at station. 80% damage = well, maybe two rolls? Or 80% chance of offlining the mod.
Some penalties to below 75% damage would be good too.
Make remote hull reps work with this somehow, when subsystem targeting makes it to TQ. :P - - Seriously, it's not that great being an amarr, is it?
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.30 18:12:00 -
[60]
Few things:
I like the speed with which heat starts affecting your modules, but I think they should be slower to take damage.
Can we redo the numbers on my artillary so I can actually read how much ammo I have left.
Can we have an 'overload all' option similar to the 'reload all' option.
sgb
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Dodona
Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:10:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Dodona on 30/05/2007 21:08:46 I had an armor rep module that wouldn't overload by clicking on the overload button on top of the module, though I could still overload it by right-clicking. I can't reproduce or fix this; has anyone else experienced this issue and do you have any ideas?
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.30 23:26:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Dodona Edited by: Dodona on 30/05/2007 21:08:46 I had an armor rep module that wouldn't overload by clicking on the overload button on top of the module, though I could still overload it by right-clicking. I can't reproduce or fix this; has anyone else experienced this issue and do you have any ideas?
Yes it is a bug that the toggle function doesn't work if another module is placed directly above it. Just move the modules around a bit so you got some empty space and it will work.
Btw, nice to see the MWD can be overloaded now.
Signature approved by Eldo |
Ladyah Liandri
VMF-214 Blacksheep
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Posted - 2007.05.31 08:06:00 -
[63]
Originally by: smallgreenblur Few things:
I like the speed with which heat starts affecting your modules, but I think they should be slower to take damage.
Can we redo the numbers on my artillary so I can actually read how much ammo I have left.
Can we have an 'overload all' option similar to the 'reload all' option.
sgb
/double signed
At least in 1600 x 1200 resolution the ammunition icons overlap the numbers of rounds left.
BTW: Who was the genius again who brought up the "white text on light gray background looks just great" idea?
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Ruoska
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Posted - 2007.05.31 09:21:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Ruoska on 31/05/2007 09:21:48 I played around with HEAT in test server, and I didn't like it. All the reasons are included already in this thread.
What I would like to have, however, is a configuration that completely hides the HEAT in my client - restoring more readable module buttons and preventing me from accidentally putting the suicidal overloading/HEAT on.
I know it's work in progress, but it's so far from anything I personally will use at the moment, that I seriously doubt any fine tuning changes my willingness to utilize it.
Don't read this as whine-whine-it-sucks, this is genuine and honest wish to retain more readable module buttons as they now are in TQ. Knowing the ammo left is potentially a useful information
edit: I play with 1920x1200 resolution...
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.31 09:50:00 -
[65]
I tried Heat a bit, I was flying an Ishkur, I had two modules I wanted to overload : -1mn MWD II, I overloaded it, the heat began going up in the med slots, but the modules began taking damage very early, The heat in the med slots reached 50% and my mwd exploded... If heat is at 50%, it isn't critical, if it isn't critical, why did it took damage? -Small Armor Repairer II, The heat maybe went up to 40% and it took heavy damage and exploded.
I thought it was quite straightforward, when heat at max, modules take damage, but if they take damage before the max heat and we have no real indicator of when and how it will take damage. It seems very random... I'll go back test a bit more, I liked much the speed gained on the mwd, but disliked much how the armor repairer exploded at what seems not so high heat level. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Happy owner of a Vexor Navy Issue and few ishkurs. The Vexor Navy Issue is much more fun than the Myrmidon ! |
Chi Quan
Jade Phoenix Deutschland Event-Horizon
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:09:00 -
[66]
so let me get this streight: 1) if heat is at 100% modules begin taking damage, correct? 2) all modules of the same fiting line overheat when u activate one, but at a slower rate, correct?
i sofar only manage to blow my own modules up rather than acctually achieve something: i wanted to overload a brutix with standard pvp fitting in the mids (mwd, cap booster, scram, web) so i activated the mwd, than clicked on overload. at this point nothing happened i had to wait for the mwd cycle to complete after which overdrive was on and the speedboost kicked in. a blink of an eye later (1 mwd cycle iirc), the other 3 mid modules start gaining heat. i try to dectivate the mwd overdrive, but have to await the cycle, by the time it finishes, the scram and the booster have overheated, got damaged and are offline, but the mwd itself is still functional. weird...
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.31 18:40:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Chi Quan so let me get this streight: 1) if heat is at 100% modules begin taking damage, correct?
No, they get damaged at random percentages by random amounts and usually kill off most of your modules after 2 cycles at the most...
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Nisse Owned
The Order of Chivalry
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Posted - 2007.05.31 19:16:00 -
[68]
Something that came to my mind when playing with this... Please add a moving light around the module to show how much of a cycle is left, i get annoyed at miners with 3 minutes cycle so i can imagine siege mode, and especially cyno can be hard to keep track of when you activated it
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Erim Solfara
Amarr Tarlos INC
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Posted - 2007.05.31 21:06:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Also, will we have modules much like cap boosters but filled with coolant?
I really like the idea of using coolant.
The current design where modules will get totally destroyed is interesting but sucks in a world with lag. Even if you do manage to survive a skirmish you can bet every module will pop as you won't be able to disable the overload in time.
A different approach would be to have heat per module and not damage. The heat will start to build up as soon as you activate the overloading and when it reaches 100% the module will get emergency offlined by the ships computer. Now to prevent the offlining to occur you have two options, stop the overloading (boring) or click on another button next to the module that make the module consume coolant from the cargohold and slowly cool it down. Different modules should consume different amount of coolant (tech 3 could get higher overload bonus but consume more coolant in the process for example).
This would add a nice second layer of micro management of a ship in combat, not only manage cap but also overload/coolant. Now if the lag monster would show up but not kill you all you have to do is go to a safe and slowly put each module online again.
And since everyone and their dog will be keen on having a set amount of coolant with them you can either make it an ice product or make it so it's only sold by NPCs in lowsec.
I have a problem with this, and it's the same one I have with cap boosters.
Cargohold should not equal positive combat ability (as far as I'm concerned). Also, it'll negate any racial bonuses to heat disapassion (same as cap boosters > cap amount/recharge).
New ship class |
Yorick Downe
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Posted - 2007.06.01 01:41:00 -
[70]
I was playing around with heat on Sisi. I think I may have found a bug. Manticore with 1MN MWD I. Overload the MWD, the Manticore speeds up to beyond its usual speed (1239 m/s in my case). Turn heat off again. Manticore keeps going at 1239m/s for a good long while, although I can see the module reactivating (eating cap / cycling). I'd understand keeping my speed for 1 cycle, but beyond? Eventually it goes back down to 928 m/s.
Hmm, it's not just heat. When I run out of cap, my Manticore keeps flying merrily ahead at 922 m/s, although MWD is most definitely shut off.
I've either found a bug or massive lag on Sisi :). Hmm, changing direction drops speed to 267m/s. I've just been looking at the display - maybe it's just a display issue, not an actual "your speed is still this high" issue? Testing again by estimating my gain towards an object - that's display, not actual speed. Still worth fixing.
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Kodiak31415
An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.01 01:59:00 -
[71]
I admit that I was looking foward to heat. It sounded like a good way to fine tune your ship, but instead it looks like a great way to kill your modules.
And eve just got a little more bloated. _______________________________ Pleese exucse any seplling erorr's in tihs psot |
MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.01 02:22:00 -
[72]
""If the ship getting ganked is getting a 15-20% boost across the board through heat overloading, what stops every ship in the gank squad from overloading their guns/ships damage by 15-20% for one volley? The risk of module shutdown because you used it once is low. Your ship is probably going to survive long enough for you to dock and repair it, if it does. Isn't it kind of naive to expect any less from kill-*****s rushing to get on a mail? The combined offensive output will far outweigh the combined defensive benefit, making heat a better tool for one-volley sniping runs, speed gankers and other "fast pvp"."" after reading the above I relised something why would overclock offence to the brim under normal curcumtances.. I mean I guess like a get him quick men! but it feels like maybe offence should get more of a boost than offence.
or do the numbers allready give more of a benifit to defenvise overclocking?
P.s. this give matar an interesting abilty to be able to overclock guns even when at 0 cap
maybe matar ships should be bad at heat while ammar are great? I fly matar
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.01 03:55:00 -
[73]
Originally by: MotherMoon ""If the ship getting ganked is getting a 15-20% boost across the board through heat overloading, what stops every ship in the gank squad from overloading their guns/ships damage by 15-20% for one volley? The risk of module shutdown because you used it once is low. Your ship is probably going to survive long enough for you to dock and repair it, if it does. Isn't it kind of naive to expect any less from kill-*****s rushing to get on a mail? The combined offensive output will far outweigh the combined defensive benefit, making heat a better tool for one-volley sniping runs, speed gankers and other "fast pvp"."" after reading the above I relised something why would overclock offence to the brim under normal curcumtances.. I mean I guess like a get him quick men! but it feels like maybe offence should get more of a boost than offence.
or do the numbers allready give more of a benifit to defenvise overclocking?
P.s. this give matar an interesting abilty to be able to overclock guns even when at 0 cap
maybe matar ships should be bad at heat while ammar are great? I fly matar
Tanking modules overload better due to the nature of the inverse relationship with damage taken.
I.E.
Active hardener prevents 55% dmg, 45% dmg gets past. Overloaded it prevents 60.5% dmg, 39.5% dmg gets past. This is a 13.92% difference[I.E. you take 14% more dmg when not overloaded]. Which is about equal to guns overloading. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.01 05:52:00 -
[74]
Like many other things, Heat seems ill-conceived. At best it's just going to mean sometimes you win unexpectedly, but that's stupid because the damage applied to modules is random - the game decides if you win or not in a highly intrusive manner.
A much better way of doing Heat would simply be to get rid of the all the random mechanics and make it highly ordered and predictable, changing it into more a logistics consideration.
What this means is, every module would have a defined number of hitpoints as they do now, and when overloaded would take damage at a defined rates. All modules would automatically stop overloading (but not cycling) if the next overloaded cycle would destroy them (and graphically indicate as such).
A module that is then one overload cycle away from destruction can then be overloaded for a one-shot 'double bonus' but is then guaranteed to be destroyed afterwards.
This would be a much more tactical system, since module behavior while in the overloaded state would be predictable. It would add tactical considerations to the use of overload modules because obviously during a fight there will be times when it is advantageous to overload compared to others - for example boosting your nosferatu would be good if your cap dips below the max recharge point, or if damage is leaking through to hull for an armor repairer etc.
Furthermore, the "last overload" bonus, behaving in a predictable fashion, would both add advantage to burning out modules and be yet another consideration about whether you need that last overload cycle.
Finally, predictable module damage would add "wear and tear" to fleets that spend extended time in the field. Short uses of overloaded modules would cause general damage to build up across a fleet, and so to retain effectiveness a fleet would need to exchange the damaged modules on their ships for either new ones, or dock and repair their modules.
tl;dr 1. Make overloading modules consistently zap some HP from them for each cycle.
2. Overload stops when the next cycle would destroy a module.
3. Re-overloading after this results in guaranteed module death, but greatly increased bonus to the overloaded module (double or triple the normal overload bonus).
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.01 06:19:00 -
[75]
Hmmm, Heat seems pretty broken seeing as the heat bars do nothing except look nice.
As I've said before, modules shouldn't take damage until heat reaches 100%, mabye the heat could fill up a bit faster too, but as it is now it's just ludicrous.
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24h01
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Posted - 2007.06.01 06:29:00 -
[76]
Originally by: William Hamilton As I've said before, modules shouldn't take damage until heat reaches 100%
...so true my friend.
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Santa Anna
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Posted - 2007.06.01 06:36:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Santa Anna on 01/06/2007 07:13:10 I tested a crow on Sisi a while ago with my character. He has pretty minimal inty/mwd skills at the time of the mirror, no implants, and no rigs.
He got about 7km/s out of a best named mwd and a couple overdrives.
While this was ridiculously awesome, I worry about how heat may effect other carefully balanced aspects of the game.
----
Just played around a bit with electronic warfare and heat and that's pretty cool. +20% to scrams, +30% to webs, +20% to ecm strength.
BTW, it looks like heat works like this (if this has been covered explicitly somewhere I missed it)
-you can preheat your modules without taking any damage. modules being preheated appears to change how much damage they can absorb, however... -once you start using your overloaded modules, they appear to essentially throw "darts" at the modules sharing the same heat pool, with the modules randomly hit (regardless of overloading or heat) taking damage.
As a result, it may make sense to overload modules with relatively small damage on the same rack with some damage-sink module that you don't overload. For example, it looks like nos has a higher damage tolerance than blasters so if you wanted to make a gank thorax you may overload 4x blasters and use a non-overloaded nos to soak heat.
This is really cool, though I'm not convinced it will be practical. |
mamolian
M. Corp M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:51:00 -
[78]
Ever played freespace 1/2?
The 3 power sliders for engines, shields and weapons.. Couldnt somthing similar be introduced here?
This whole heat thing, sounds like a load of *******s to me :L
-------------------------------
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Rigsta
Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.06.01 12:08:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Rigsta on 01/06/2007 12:07:55 Get on sisi and test it before making comments like that. But in your defense, that sig is great
Loving heat in it's current incarnation. The "Overload rack" option is great, but either it does not work when disabling overload for that module row, or I was lagged :x I'll test this more thoroughly when I get the chance. Overloading MWDs on a speed-fitted inty is very fun. I can get 2-3 cycles before something breaks, which is plenty when you're going at 11.5km/s
And speaking of overloading MWDs, I just figured out how to escape the blast radius of my thermic bombs without warping... They still need speed love though
Originally by: Jim McGregor I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.
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Sanctus Maleficus
Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance
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Posted - 2007.06.01 16:59:00 -
[80]
I know this isn't really constructive, but does anyone else find themselves yelling "REROUTE AUXILLIARY POWER TO [module]" when they Overload something? ;)
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SumDum
AirHawk Alliance Insomnia.
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Posted - 2007.06.02 00:24:00 -
[81]
So far, I have only tested it on my armor repper, and it seems to operate about as expected. It basically turned a named repper into a nice t2 repper for a short time. I ran it for several cycles and only took about 10% damage to the mod. I just needed it to hold my tank together for another minute, and it did exactly as hoped.
So far, the only things about it I would like to see improved:
- A bigger button for Overload, it's very hard to turn on and off with the mouse many times I end up turning off the module by accident.
- Adding a button or option to overload a whole slot by section, high, mid or low.
I will do more testing this weekend, currently I have to say it's a very nice addition if used properly.
AHE wants YOU! |
VIctoria Ballentyne
Minmatar Pale Riders Incorporated Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.06.02 14:09:00 -
[82]
Edited by: VIctoria Ballentyne on 02/06/2007 14:08:44 Just dragged a best named abaddon out to test the heat again with 6x tachyons & Multi's.
Managed to wipe out 3/4 hull and all structure on a Fenrir and my lasers only went to 30% damage. The option to overdrive all the rack is very useful, however I did notice that the tractorbeam and salvage mod I had on there from before were also damaged even though they were not used O.o
Going to retry it later to see if it warrents a bug report.
My tests on T2 medium pulse lasers were also favorable with minimal damage done.
TBH It would be nice to see Amarr ships and equipment take less heat and damage since they should be used to it. Heat sinks etc etc.
I dont' see myself using heat during missions, but definately during 0.0 and low sec encounters.
"Forbid a man to think for himself or to act for himself and you may add the joy of piracy and the zest of smuggling to his life"
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Alexi Borizkova
Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.06.02 22:04:00 -
[83]
Ok, it's rather usable now.
Still a bit damage heavy, I'd still rather be able to use it twice as long with half the chance for damage and half the bonus, but ok, this will work.
My only question now is are we certain on the prerequisite? I've been burned twice now, once on tractors and once on salvage. Are you going to punish early adopters again?
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.03 02:03:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Alexi Borizkova Ok, it's rather usable now.
Still a bit damage heavy, I'd still rather be able to use it twice as long with half the chance for damage and half the bonus, but ok, this will work.
My only question now is are we certain on the prerequisite? I've been burned twice now, once on tractors and once on salvage. Are you going to punish early adopters again?
good point but I guess even they won't know
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RedWater
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:54:00 -
[85]
Was listing to the last live dev log about heat and had an idea. ItÆs one of those things that have made me unhappy for a long time! From day 1 miners could not use their lasers to do any damage to another ship. I have always thought that anything that can cut a rod up should be able to some ôANYô damage to an opponent ship. I think overloading the mining lasers would be a good way to put this in game.
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Erim Solfara
Amarr Tarlos INC
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Posted - 2007.06.03 22:55:00 -
[86]
The Heat dials now make up a semi circle around the capacitor display, wrapped around the top half.
There is now blank space on the bottom half of the ring, can this space be used to bring back the powergrid and cpu percentage needles? I know these were not used much, and replaced because the heat thing needs space and is more important than the pg/cpu status, but there is blank space, and I DID use the little displays.
Please, utilize this space and bring back the needles half the size they used to be.
New ship class |
Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.06.04 18:02:00 -
[87]
I think the skill requirements for thermodynamics are currently a bit high. Energy managent 5 takes around 2 weeks to train. This really needs to be changed to lvl 4 before release.
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Malaan Tabfassh
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Posted - 2007.06.06 06:45:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Malaan Tabfassh on 06/06/2007 06:44:43 Heat ... just remove it. :)
After testing, I think it is pretty useless as it is now:
- You have a lot more micromanagment (Beside that the UI just looks deformed now).
- Modules are damaged way to fast. As people stated before, sometimes only 2-3 cycles. And remember: the skill for it, is at lvl5 already on the testserver.
-I don't think there is any benefit. It is intended as a last choice in combat. But when I make use of it I have to be sure, that it can finish my enemy within the next three module-cycles, when I want to be prevent the fact that I'm a sitting duck afterwards. Bad thing is my enemy can also just overheat, and basically everything stays the same. T3-modules will work better with it? Sounds like for T3 this isn't the last choice, it is common.
-After all, I can't see any benefits in PvE for it. Would be nice to get rid of the heat-UI, when not doing PvP. |
Nnam Pir
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.06 12:15:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Nnam Pir on 06/06/2007 12:33:51 Heat As It Can Relate To Mining I have not taken the time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if I am suggesting anything that has previously been mentioned.
Theory: I would like to talk about Heat and Mining. Mining is a dangerous profession here on Earth, and equipment can easily be damaged or destroyed. This should be no different in EVE. Rough Spots could help bring this about. You should expect that your lasers may be required to overload and be put to risk in order to get your millions of ISK for this single cargohold full of ore.
I don't believe that the composition of an asteroid to be uniform throughout the whole asteroid. For example some parts of the asteroid may have more of some material that would make that location of the asteroid a little denser or harder to break through than another location on the same asteroid. Such locations in an asteroid will hereafter be referred to in this post as a 'rough spot'. Perhaps you run the risk while mining to run into such a rough spot on the asteroid where you'll require more power being emitted through your laser in order to continue mining that asteroid.
As a reward for deciding to go through with it and risk your mining laser, perhaps you'll have the opportunity to receive from it an amount of super-dense ore of the same type you are mining. I don't mean you'll get some Dense Veldspar from a Veldspar asteroid. I mean super-dense ore. Something really rare. After all, overloading isn't meant to be something used often even in combat, only in those rare pinches. It can be the same in mining but instead of being a way to save your ass, it can be a rare opportunity to maybe get something extra out of it. Perhaps the downside could be that instead of receiving this nice amount of rare ore, you may istead have the nasty surprise of setting off a reaction in the asteroid resulting in damage to your vessel. Two sides of the coin, you hit a rough spot and decide if you want to flip that coin. Overloading may not save your ass every time in combat, and it may not always be the best idea while mining.
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Nnam Pir
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.06 12:26:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Nnam Pir on 06/06/2007 12:36:14 There could be two possiblilities in how to use the mining laser to overcome this rough spot.
Automatic: Our mining lasers, being as advanced as they are, might automatically compensate for this increased need for power by increasing their output, overloading the mining laser turret slightly. Perhaps not as a passive steady overload but as quick bursts of substantially increased power, in order to attempt to break through the rough spot. This would increase the heat of the mining laser, very similar to overloading a Railgun Turret might increase that module's heat. Perhaps there could be a way to toggle auto-overload on mining lasers, for those who want to throw caution to the wind in the hopes of ever-higher profits.
Manual: This could instead require manual intervention. The Mining Cycle will end with the ore mined before encountering the rough spot being dropped into your cargohold, and some alert letting you know a rough spot was encountered. You can then activate the overload on the mining laser(s) which encountered the rough spot in order to break through it. Of course some rough spots can be worse than others, so one mining laser overloading may, once in a blue moon, not be enough to break through and using an additional overloaded mining laser or two may be required to get through.
Conclusion: Somehow implementing Heat with Mining could serve two purposes. First, miners won't feel left out of another new game mechanic that is currently seeming like just another combat-only feature. Secondly, if the Manual implementation is used, it can serve to break up some of the monotony of sitting in the pilot seat of a Mining ship staring at slowly spinning space rocks for extended periods of time.
Of course I don't expect it to be so simple as the most common ores all have more uniformly distributed material densities in their asteroids as opposed to the rarer ores' asteroids, making rough spots more common as the ore gets closer to the Rare side of the spectrum. I would not oppose to it being implemented as such, however, if it made implementation simpler.
Problems with my suggestion which I am aware of: ò Not all lasers are equally powerful. Different lasers can acquire different amounts of ore per cycle, so obviously smaller mining lasers will simply be unable to break some rough spots which may require larger mining lasers in order to break the rough spot. ò This will most likely require a change to asteroids in addition to just adding overloading ability to mining lasers. Especially if the change for denser ore is included.
Of course I need to put more thought into this, but right now this is a rough outline of what I was thinking about regarding Heat and Mining. Everything I've mentioned is certainly open to discussion and change and is not set in stone. Thank you for your time.
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Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm
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Posted - 2007.06.06 16:40:00 -
[91]
It seems like heat is one of those nifty ideas that just isn't very practical. It sounds like at best it will not be very useful, and at worst it will really mess some things up.
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Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.06 18:45:00 -
[92]
I've said it elsewhere, but want it said here too:
The only reason I will ever use Heat is to overload all of my modules so that my enemy does not get any loot when I lose a ship.
Heat is a very very BAD idea. All developemnt on it should be stopped, and the resourses directed against Lag and fixing the Drone Regions.
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F2C MaDMaXX
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.06 20:24:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Princess Jodi I've said it elsewhere, but want it said here too:
The only reason I will ever use Heat is to overload all of my modules so that my enemy does not get any loot when I lose a ship.
Heat is a very very BAD idea. All developemnt on it should be stopped, and the resourses directed against Lag and fixing the Drone Regions.
Wow, you clearly have been paying attention to this.
Of course they took developers aways from the new regions and lag problems in order to make heat!
Oh, and, if you really were paying attention, you'd know that overloading all your modules to stop people getting loot, isn't gonna work.
1) The point at which you'd over heat your modules to "destroy them" is the point at which you'd use heat in the first place.
2) Overloading your modules doesn't dsetroy your modules, clearly, heat is the new feature for you ;) ______________________________________ Natural Selection Developer
Sound FX
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.06 20:57:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Aki Yamato "Heat level critical..." "Shut down sequence initiated.." "Shutting down !" "Flushing coolant!" "Heat level ... Nominal ..." "Shutdown sequence... Aborted"
Ouuu Yeahh !
Mechwarrior 4 4tw
Originally by: Benglada And whos going to tackle for them? Jesus?
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Stellar Vix
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.07 06:32:00 -
[95]
Before reading summary 1 Heat Sucks, sucks worse than using defenders to shoot down a torpedo that targeted at somone else. 2 We seriously need Dev feedback to why and where this is Heat going because as it stands its going into the trash can and then out the airlock. 3 Suggestions you'll all probably heard including module fixers, coolant injectors, heat to 100% before module damage, more heat helping skills ect. ect. 4. Negative impact of heat's first impression will destroy Tech 3 pre first impression if you guys keep tooting heat with tech 3 I liked the customizable modules idea more with computer ships.
I wished the devs working on heat would comment about thier tinker toy project that it seems a growing number of people arent liking at all which is including me.
Sure the dread and carriers dropping out of reinforced modes by killing the module with heat is an issue and i bet you the cyno generator is also the same and has similar issues but i havent been able to test this yet because I dont have the skill... but this is the only directly related to heat dev response I've seen.
The interface although looks snappy there have been plenty of comments on how its in the way, I am glad a dev did mention fixing the redablity of reading the ammo counters.
But seriously heat won't save you in lag it will kill you in lag, heat wont save you from a close fight it will kill you in a close fight, heat will barely save anyone except the hassel of killing the pilot who uses it, which imo is severly messed up.
I expected the heat to increase to max where it gets bad then the damage would start on the modules, but as the current systems stands, its impossible to possibly get 100% even with 8 guns on the rack on overload, shoot the guns 2-3 times and you destroy the entire row other places before it gets anywhere close to high amount of heat.
Not to insult the idea, but heat as it stands is more worthless than defender missiles at level 1, and thats saying alot. And if this hits Tranquility, expect a massive amount of complaints and GMs arent going to like you guys to much either when your cluttered interface causes a destruction of a cricital module when it wasnt called for leading to the death of the ship before the pilot could stop the process.
Or wait a minute? Is it possible that the modules getting damage before 100% heat a bug? please stop kidding us and say something. Im sure the combined what 90-120 pages of heat hate isnt enough to get your guys attention.
Improvements possible:
Dont let modules get damagaded until 100% heat for that level.
Have heat bleed though levels they are touching, for example high heat will increase mid heat as well but not as fast.
Higher the level the better the heat is managed, making tanking a harder option to abuse to much, but overload the guns would increase heat in the tanking areas.
Make it so that modules create lesser heat but the more modules on that you online on all racks the more heat is generated overall.
As long as heat is being generated have it so that it doesnt get purged during overload. This will prevent folks from making managable setups forcing them to turn off the overloads.
The remote module repair sounds good but need to be tweaked carefully and should be near the likes of hull repairers as modules shoudl be more complicated than the hull of ships.
Can we get a coolant injector, something that will underduce heat (makes a blue bar instead to indicated lower temperatures or negative heat) to deal with heat, have them have long refire times (even the officer versions wont be fast enough) so that they are only good for cleaning heat once in a row allowing for extended heat cycling in overload.
Along with that Remote Coolers?
The idea of using damage controls to help with modules is also a good idea.
Drones(microwave drones)? Ewar(microwave beams ftw!)? Standard weapons? special ammo/missiles(friction rounds) =========
SWA Qualified Instructor and Mascot or sorts Ensign Stellar Vix |
BOldMan
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.07 09:59:00 -
[96]
Edited by: BOldMan on 07/06/2007 09:58:25 Few bads:
1 - menu for heating is bad as menu for drone control. Why are you using sensitive menu for commands that are critical is beyond my logic. Use buttons, pls! 2 - Toggle overload and hope to toggle off when the damage start to appear is a no-way in large battle or even in lag missions. I will not start overload when my screeen is full of ships and more and more shipd are warping in. Is like i choose selfdestruct myship. 3 - Damage is randomly and no way to control it. Also is no option to have an automating toggle overload on critical heat. I fly a space ship and i don't have any security system on it? Not realistic for sure. 4 - I even don't wanna take in consideration what is the benefit of using overloading on actual configuration of ships and skills for that. For few seconds and few cicle of using a module with 10-20% upgrade on attribute is no way to use in deep space.
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swoj
The New Order. United Connection's
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Posted - 2007.06.07 10:17:00 -
[97]
Edited by: swoj on 07/06/2007 10:15:43
Originally by: Stellar Vix
2 We seriously need Dev feedback to why and where this is Heat going because as it stands its going into the trash can and then out the airlock.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=473
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Orravan
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.06.07 16:19:00 -
[98]
Originally by: BOldMan 1 - menu for heating is bad as menu for drone control. Why are you using sensitive menu for commands that are critical is beyond my logic. Use buttons, pls!
Fixed, they added some cute buttons to overload the racks today. For the others points, remember it's not a feature meant to be used at normal pvp situation. Basically, it's a last chance to save the ship when you're facing the destruction, not a wtfpwning boost. Of course you can use it in the middle of a fight, but then, you face the consequences and take the risk to offline some modules when it's not really needed. You can't have the cake and eat it.
And for the realism issue, overload itself *is* a critical heat, to toggle it is removing the security systems. Besides, this is for the general purpose of Heat, I haven't tested it enough atm to judge how exactly the efficiency of the boost should be adjusted. ____________________
Finicky diplomat. Suicidal explorer. Faithful ally. |
Gner Dechast
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.06.07 20:08:00 -
[99]
I resigned from Heat awhile ago, for the abysmal thing it indeed was, didn't pay any attention to it until just now. Looks like it's been getting some real attention.
First thing I noticed (along with the rack overloading buttons) was that I was no longer tanking random damage steadily into my modules from the very beginning. Now apparently the heat gauges have something to do with Heat :P ...but they seem to be showing correct heat values only when modules are engaged and heat is accumulating. On cool down, the red bar-thiny and the gauge needle move at different rates, and neither seems to be consistent with the presentage readout you can see in the tooltip.
This is huge positive step for Heat. To be completely frank, I am still suspicious if I will bother with it in TQ, but I can no longer say that it's utterly pointless and useless. it's no longer 30 second(max) twitch to your doom-smelling-like-fried-electronics. Overloading works longer now than maximum of 3 - 5 cycles, and I am trying to work out if the overloading gains have partially been modified (if I can).
I will invest time in Heat now, testing it and trying to come up with new opinion about it :)
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Stellar Vix
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.07 21:52:00 -
[100]
How bout damn time >< =========
SWA Qualified Instructor and Mascot or sorts Ensign Stellar Vix |
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Juntos
Pelennor Swarm R i s e
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:41:00 -
[101]
Heat seems ok. After reading the transcript of the blog I can see the point sort of. But I do think that lag could be a problem as turning off the overload seems a little troublesome.
I like the idea of the new interface, but hate the glowing around the buttons. You can't properly see if a module is on or not. Could this be changed. A suggestion would be have the nice bar light at the top of the button switch on for module on, flash green for on and overloaded and flash red for shutting off. Would be much clearer.
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.06.08 16:31:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Juntos A suggestion would be have the nice bar light at the top of the button switch on for module on, flash green for on and overloaded and flash red for shutting off. Would be much clearer.
Yes definately this. I keep wondering whether overload is actually turning off or not since it stays green the whole time.
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Stellar Vix
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:19:00 -
[103]
doesnt sound color blind friendly... =========
SWA Qualified Instructor and Mascot or sorts Ensign Stellar Vix |
Haas Tabris
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Posted - 2007.06.08 23:45:00 -
[104]
LOL @ heat. Do you devs ever play this game? Really, with all the problems we have you guys are wasting your time with this?
How about 3 little buttons that do this:
button 1 - overload guns button 2 - overload shields button 3 - overload engines
Hit a button and all the modules in this category go into overload mode, boosting their stats and damaging them in the process.
About to die with guns blazing? One click. About to die if you can't outrun that other ceptor? One click. Oooo I might live thru this fight if i could just tank another 30 seconds.... One click.
Please. Do this. For the love of god and eve.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition
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Posted - 2007.06.10 11:30:00 -
[105]
I was playing around with this new feature, fighting some rats. here's my opinion on it.
Dislikes
1
Problem: You will need to have all your modules showing, so you don't break one of them. This clutters up the GUI.
Fix: Allow us to "Show passive high slots" / "Show passive mid slots" / Show passive low slots" seperately. This way, we can still maintain some resemblance of "order".
Reasoning: For example, all of my low slots are all passive items, I don't need my low slots showing. All I need are to be able to see my high slots and my medium slots.
2
Problem: Toggle buttons are way too small
Fix: Make them the size of the regular module buttons.
Reasoning: I'm blind, and I tend to "fat finger" my mouse when the adrenalin is pumping (yea.. i'm a nubbin).
Likes
1) It seems like heat will be very popular in the low sec crowd, since they have access to "free" repair stations.
2) Repairing modules isn't that expensive (I damaged all of my modules to about 80%.. cost less than a mill ISK (this was on a manticore).
My opinion is my own, not of my corp or my alliance. If you have problems, we can have a "who can do L4 missions faster" duel >:) |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.11 08:31:00 -
[106]
I found the buttons a bit hard to activate, well, mostly, I used the overheat low/mid/hi to do anything...
Maybe a square button for overloading behind the round button for activation could be good, it would let us the corners to click on it. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Happy owner of a Vexor Navy Issue and few ishkurs. The Vexor Navy Issue is much more fun than the Myrmidon ! |
ShadoStinger
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Posted - 2007.06.11 08:32:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Nymos
Originally by: Aki Yamato "Heat level critical..." "Shut down sequence initiated.." "Shutting down !" "Flushing coolant!" "Heat level ... Nominal ..." "Shutdown sequence... Aborted"
Ouuu Yeahh !
that sounds pretty much like mechwarrior :D. i loved to alpha strike stuff with the heaviest weapons and just flush some coolant into my systems
Oh yea, one mechfull of Clan ER PPC's and one alphastrike ftw :D
On topic, thats more how I envisioned heat when I heard of it, and how I'd prefer it. Or else something along the lines of the (already mentioned) "dial up heat on some mods, dial down on others to compensate" model.
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Stellar Vix
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.11 14:36:00 -
[108]
Somone mentioned about allow passive modules show or no show, this isnt an option as heat gets dangerous for a rack ti will bleed into other heat levels and modules and start to hurt them. =========
SWA Qualified Instructor and Mascot or sorts Ensign Stellar Vix |
Carnith
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Posted - 2007.06.11 22:06:00 -
[109]
Might just be me, but I thought space was supposed to be like sub zero temps? And from a different view im supposed to believe that any civilization that is able to produce any kind of "space craft" remotely close to anything in EvE cant counter a heat issue? This all just seems like a way to limit people rather than expand the game.
Personally it all sounds like one giant blanket nerf in shiny wrapping.
Heat, is not such a cool idea imo.
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Carnith
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Posted - 2007.06.11 22:08:00 -
[110]
Originally by: ShadoStinger
Originally by: Nymos
Originally by: Aki Yamato "Heat level critical..." "Shut down sequence initiated.." "Shutting down !" "Flushing coolant!" "Heat level ... Nominal ..." "Shutdown sequence... Aborted"
Ouuu Yeahh !
that sounds pretty much like mechwarrior :D. i loved to alpha strike stuff with the heaviest weapons and just flush some coolant into my systems
Oh yea, one mechfull of Clan ER PPC's and one alphastrike ftw :D
On topic, thats more how I envisioned heat when I heard of it, and how I'd prefer it. Or else something along the lines of the (already mentioned) "dial up heat on some mods, dial down on others to compensate" model.
OH SNAP, hail to you fellow Mech warrior player! And honestly I preferred a 7 ER-Large Novacat.
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.12 05:57:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Carnith Might just be me, but I thought space was supposed to be like sub zero temps? And from a different view im supposed to believe that any civilization that is able to produce any kind of "space craft" remotely close to anything in EvE cant counter a heat issue? This all just seems like a way to limit people rather than expand the game.
There is no temperature in space, it's a vacuum.
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Valeo Galaem
InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:51:00 -
[112]
Originally by: William Hamilton
Originally by: Carnith Might just be me, but I thought space was supposed to be like sub zero temps? And from a different view im supposed to believe that any civilization that is able to produce any kind of "space craft" remotely close to anything in EvE cant counter a heat issue? This all just seems like a way to limit people rather than expand the game.
There is no temperature in space, it's a vacuum.
Of course there is temperature is space, in the form of radiation. The average temperature of the universe is about 3K, or -270 degrees C (read a book on astrophysics or at least thermodynamics as to how we can know this).
But heat transfer via radiation is extremely slow. Without dedicated cooling systems, heat buildup in inevitable. Take the space shuttle, is basically a huge space born radiator just to keep the astronauts from baking.
Thar be Pirates
You are not authorised to hack into CONCORD's mainframe Your Wallet has been emptied!
CONCORD Encryption Methods |
Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.06.12 18:37:00 -
[113]
A few issues I noticed for heat testing after the new server mirror today:
Thermodynamics lvl 5 isn't included in our skilltrees any longer. Thermodynamics skillbook not seeded on the market.
We're sorry, something happened.
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sulgerd
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Posted - 2007.06.13 02:41:00 -
[114]
probably already been discussed, but why not make it just like cap? Say a cruiser will have 1000 heat points, each shot with a gun fired takes maybe 50 heatpoints (just an example) per shot, also maybe make cap boosters loadable with cooling stuff and make heat power relays and stuff that increases maximum heat capacity or decrease heat cost for an activation. At 900 aurora starts screaming "system overload gawd" and modules start taking damage and shutting off, at 1000 all your modules should be turned off and you're pretty screwed.
this is the wrong char btw but whatever
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Van Krakien
Gallente RONA Midgard Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.13 21:22:00 -
[115]
Yea, a liquid cooling system module that could counteract the negative effects of HEAT would be a cool addition to HEAT.
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.06.13 23:21:00 -
[116]
The skillbook has been seeded on SiSi now.
By the way, any particular reason why we can't overload the active modules known as gang mods?
We're sorry, something happened.
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Kvarium Ki
legion of qui Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.14 03:52:00 -
[117]
I don't have the skills to test heat but I'm wondering.
While in space if you move one of your armor rep icon from low slot to high slot and you hit the overload high slot button does it overload your armor rep as well or just the modules that are ment to be fitted in high slots?
KK.
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.06.14 10:56:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Kvarium Ki I don't have the skills to test heat but I'm wondering.
While in space if you move one of your armor rep icon from low slot to high slot and you hit the overload high slot button does it overload your armor rep as well or just the modules that are ment to be fitted in high slots?
KK.
It doesn't matter where on the GUI you place your modules, low slot modules will only affect the low slot rack and so on. However it is a good idea to unhide passive modules though as they have a certain habit of taking a good beating from heat.
We're sorry, something happened.
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SFShootme
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.06.15 15:08:00 -
[119]
Could anybody confirm the pre-reg skills for the Thermodynamics skills? Tho shall give Life, for Life. |
Malena
Perpetual Dawn
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:37:00 -
[120]
has anyone tested the effects of boosters when used in conjunction with heat? What kind of numbers can you get when using the 20% to armor amount booster along with your overloaded large or capital armor repper? Do the effect even stack?
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Nicoli Malthus
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Posted - 2007.06.16 14:18:00 -
[121]
High there, i just have a quick qestion and not directly related to the new Heat patch. I was wandering when are we going to get newer, larger secure cans,cause the giant secure can with only 3950m3 of storage space is a huge waste. I can no longer solo mine and jet can without jerks trying to steal my ore while using my hulk. I would really like to see if we can get a newer larger can, or have a skills that makes the cans size increase by 5% per skill level. MY hulk pulls about 4000m3 a cycle. To do a group mining up with 2-3 hulks and a couple retriever/covetors, we'd need to have a large amount of secure cans and then ships would be bouncing off them, making mining a huge pain. Please, i know this is probably to late for implementation in this patch, but it seems like a very simply thing to make for the game, and i dont' think would affect the game very much at all except make it much more fun and safer to mine solo. Heck even a secure can that can hold 10k m3 would be a huge improvement. thanks for your time.
Nic
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Tarik ThunderStorm
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Posted - 2007.06.19 16:07:00 -
[122]
I have only gone through the first two pages and I have to say this. Heat is so confusing atm it is pointless to implement. EVE is already the most sophisticated mmorpg out there & with the steepest learning curve. Adding heat adds no fun at all to the game and it is already tough as it is to fight without having to look at stupid heat indicators. Also, once again CCP you have nerfed caldari and shield tanking. Why? I can't use a shield boost amplifier without damaging my shield booster?? That is ********! And btw, nobody has mentioned the fact that many eve players have at least 2 or 3 accounts. Now, with heat, can anyone sincerely think you can play with even just two accounts at the same time & using heat on both??? Sincerely, I don't care about the pathetic boosts heat might give to my mods. EVE is already too random as it is. And I really thought combat boosters were supposed to fill in that slot. Heat? In an era where there are jovians with super uber future technology? Imo this whole idea just stinks (sorry CCP... there are way much better things to improve and add to the game without making it a disaster to be able to play... at this rate this game will only be for lunatics who can move their heads and eyes like a fly to see what the hell is going on with your ship) |
Donathan Slade
Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.06.19 20:56:00 -
[123]
hehe, here is Heat ....
Skill: Thermodynamics. 5% less heat per skill level.
Advantages: You get to do more of whatever the modules does, better damage/tracking for guns. Range or stronger ability for EW, nothing specific says what the heat advantages are for each specified type of module.
Disadvantages: -Use overheat, damage modules = repair at outpost -damage modules = offline until repaired once damaged -using heat affects ALL items on that high/med/low rack and damages them all. -must use outpost to repair damage (no pos stuff or remote repair for this at this time)
Opinion: -Overheat is for, I'm going to die, lemi do the most I can before I die. -Rich people who can afford it and defending your system.
Whats missing: well, they said there is a rack heat disipation, does this mean I could perminantly run one or two modules in overheat if they don't exceed my skill + rack disipation forever and toss out extra dps because I have skills?
Opinions??
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Luciana Arcadia
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Posted - 2007.06.20 04:22:00 -
[124]
Okay, there are a lot of good responses to this thread. And unfortunately, that means a lot of people are saying the same thing. I think that this is a relatively new way to balance out the whole heating system.
As said before, heat now is a last ditch effort to do whatever you can before you explode. Massive drawbacks if you mess up or lag. (modules asplode) This really doesn't add a new skill aspect to the game as it stands.
I would like to see this:
Overheat activates, the modules in question take an activation damage (hey, module wasn't designed to be pushed like this, I can see some damage here)
After the initial damage, there is a 'running hot' mode. This is it, You're getting your bonuses and the module is heating up. IT IS NOT YET TAKING DAMAGE.
at the end of the module's 'running hot' mode the module enters an 'overheating mode' It gets the same bonuses as 'running hot' but now it's taking damage.
If you keep pushing it, it burns out. If you turn it off, it goes back to normal mode and has a cooldown before it can be overheated again.
Here's an example to hopefully clarify: I turn on a module that has 20 HP. It takes 4 damage in activation. 16 HP left and the module is 'running hot' for lets say 30 seconds. At 31 seconds, the module starts to incur damage in 'overheating mode', and takes damage, then burns out.
The damage from activation will stop people from turning it on and off to get the bonus with no penalty. There is a skill aspect to be able to run it hot, without overheating it. (turn it off before it takes the heat damage, so that you can afford to wait for it to cool down and overheat it again. Macro management 101) If you're not careful, you still burn it out, and it's uses are limited even if you do it correctly.
IMHO this makes everyone happy. It adds a skill aspect to the game that wasn't there before and is still hard to abuse. (granted, my numbers here are simple and it would need balance as to how much time to reach what heat phase)
Thoughts?
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Corvus Algorab
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Posted - 2007.06.20 08:34:00 -
[125]
/Agreed |
Donathan Slade
Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.06.20 14:59:00 -
[126]
I think thats a good idea, damage on startup so people can't just pop items in overload for 2-4 seconds and shut em off and take no damage. Especially the MWD bonus's.
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Beef Hardslab
The 5 Amigo's LLC. NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.06.21 19:24:00 -
[127]
Why can we not overheat smartbombs? Whether overheating increases damage, range or refire, smartbombs should definitely be included in the list of modules capable of overheating.
Why are they excluded? Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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Dei
Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.06.21 22:45:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Tarik ThunderStorm I have only gone through the first two pages and I have to say this. Heat is so confusing atm it is pointless to implement. EVE is already the most sophisticated mmorpg out there & with the steepest learning curve. Adding heat adds no fun at all to the game and it is already tough as it is to fight without having to look at stupid heat indicators. Also, once again CCP you have nerfed caldari and shield tanking. Why? I can't use a shield boost amplifier without damaging my shield booster?? That is ********! And btw, nobody has mentioned the fact that many eve players have at least 2 or 3 accounts. Now, with heat, can anyone sincerely think you can play with even just two accounts at the same time & using heat on both??? Sincerely, I don't care about the pathetic boosts heat might give to my mods. EVE is already too random as it is. And I really thought combat boosters were supposed to fill in that slot. Heat? In an era where there are jovians with super uber future technology? Imo this whole idea just stinks (sorry CCP... there are way much better things to improve and add to the game without making it a disaster to be able to play... at this rate this game will only be for lunatics who can move their heads and eyes like a fly to see what the hell is going on with your ship)
As much as it was fun to read your big block of text, I find you wrong on all accounts. If you checked, your shield booster does not get any damage when using a SBA unheated, and when you heat it up, it only brings it in line so that the extra shield boost gained gives you extra heat as well. Otherwise there will be people heating up their boosters and fitting loads of SBAs for the same amount of heat damage (if you see what I mean).
On the accounts issue, I highly doubt anyone plays 2 accounts for combat at the same time, if they do it's a cyno alt or a scout, but not combat.
And finally, you're not meant to heat up your modules all the time, it's meant to be for the elite to gain a little extra damage, or tanking ability. ---
The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack |
Captain Campion
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.07.07 07:44:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Captain Campion on 07/07/2007 07:48:30 I dont understand Heat, it's not on the Player Guide. Modules have xHP dmg... which I guess is per cycle, how much HP do they start with? And I don't want it on the interface around my modules, can I have the option to remove that?
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