Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 00:03:00 -
[1]
Now, for the past days Eefrit has done his best/worst to question my honesty and integrity, and I've kept quiet, mostly to see how deep he could dig his hole.
The behavier from some (too many..) people on this forum is disgracefull to say the least. Shame on you. I'm sure you know who you are. It's like watching a pack of rabid hyenas going after a the last piece of meat, leaving their brains behind.
You guys need to grow up, and not launch a crusade each time you see a chance to do so - You come of as looking quite silly.
I migth as well get that bit over with, as I just *know* you will do it all over again. Well, have at it. At least I wont have to repeat myself now
To the core of this thread : Is Eefrit a liar, blackmailer, briber and a general cheat?
I can answer that with a yes on all counts.
Eefrit has in another post given Ray permission to disclose all logs he has of conversations with Eefrit. Without that permission, you would *not* see the following. Just to make that clear!
The following is from a time before last weekend - ie the weekend April 28th/29th 2007
Quote:
01 <Eefrit> o/ 02 <RayMc|BIG> eveing 03 <Eefrit> evening 04 <Eefrit> I take it TS has not given a response? 05 <RayMc|BIG> shareholder report is due next week, think he might be waiting for that 06 <Eefrit> has he formally given an answer 07 (*3*)<Eefrit> basically if he does not answer I will take it to the forums this weekend 08 <RayMc|BIG> answer to what? 09 <Eefrit> I have given plenty of notice as it is 10 <Eefrit> If he is going to fill all the shareholders in on EVERYTHING that has been going on 11 <RayMc|BIG> i'll check with him tonight if he is going to put it into the next report 12 <Eefrit> not in the next report 13 <Eefrit> this weekend 14 (*2*)<Eefrit>he has had a year to do it in reports and tbh I'm not waiting for another report that is weeks late 15 (*4*)<Eefrit> this is directly related to my offer to BMBE as a way out 16 <Eefrit> i.e. TS can use th payout Isk to pay back Isk from losses due to not keeping to the business plan 17 <RayMc|BIG> how was it not keeping to the business plan? 18 <Eefrit> the business plan called for them to sell BPO off from loans that are defaulted on 19 <Eefrit> had they done that the losses would be negligible 20 <Eefrit> right now they are worthless so the losses are almost total 21 <RayMc|BIG> the BPO were worthless when they were defaulted. selling them on then would've left us in the same position we are now. 22 <Eefrit> no they were not 23 (*1*)<Eefrit> a year ago they were being sold for 10-15 Bill Isk each 24 <Eefrit> even up to 9 months ago 25 <Eefrit> check the forums 26 <Eefrit> right now they are worth maybe 1 bill Isk each 27 <Eefrit> either way TS had no right to make that call without informing ALL shareholders 28 <Eefrit> the fact that he is still not happy to inform all investors is a clear indicatin that he KNOWS that is outside the business plan 29 <RayMc|BIG> what would have been within the business plan then? 30 <Eefrit> sell them off and declare any losses / profits 31 <Eefrit> that is clearly the resolution given 32 <Eefrit> there has now been losses in income for shareholders directly because this was not kept 33 <Eefrit> and huge capital losses 34 <Eefrit> cheers Ray 35 <Eefrit> dinner :) 36 <Eefrit> o/
BIG Lottery
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 00:04:00 -
[2]
Claim #1 : Eefrit is a liar
Eefrit has *numerous* times claimed he had no idea about the defaulted 30B loan and the 2 skiff BPO's as collateral.
Really... Where to start...
Have a look at line 23 (*1*) From that it's obvious that he knows it's more than one print, and also which prints it is, how else would he know their worth?
Have a look at line 14 (*2*) He clearly demonstrates knowledge of when the default of the loan happened - Contracdictory to his forum claims that he has a theory, and some possibel explanations that some fishy must have happened around december. He claims to not know precisely what happened, but he has several theories, each ofc painting me in a bad light
Eefrit knew all along very well what the score was - In detail.
So - Eefrit is a liar
Claim #2 : Eefrit is blackmailer
Have a look at line 07 (*2*)
It's the good old : Do as I say, or else. And if you do as I say, then nothing will happen
Dear Eefrit claims inforum posts to be oooh so upset about this whole affair, and is on his rightous crusade - How could he *possible* not tell the public about this terrible thing he has unearthed.
Yet, he offers to do nothing if the BMBE does his bidding. So much for that moral high ground he has bee claiming....
Claim #3 : Eefrit is a briber (not sure that is a word in fact... Someone who bribes people - a briber?)
Have a look at line 15 (*3*)
The offer refered to, is the 20B golden handshake he tries to lure me with.
"a way out" he says. Basically offering me 20B if I will just do as he wants.
Newsflash Eefrit : Not even for all the ISK in EVE would I ever do such a thing. But reading this I'm sure you would...
Claim #4 : Eefrit is a general cheat
He has cheated you all in this charade of his.
Claiming he doesnt know excactly what is wrong with the BMBE, but his unselfish self has at least determined that *something* is wrong, and he offers up theories for what that could be.
*He knew all along*!!!
It was all a ploy to try and discredit me personal and the BMBE, when neither his bribe nor his blackmail worked.
If after you've read the above log snippet, you still trust to do business with Eefrit, a proven liar, blackmailer, briber and cheat - Good luck to you. You'll need it. BIG Lottery
|
mechtech
Entropy Industries
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 00:22:00 -
[3]
Edited by: mechtech on 07/05/2007 00:19:29 OK, I'm new to this situation, and I see it as a huge misunderstanding.
Eefrit thought that you were keeping the BPOs used as collateral, instead of selling them, which the original plan had you do.
You knew that they were only worth about a bil each, and that you weren't really skimming anything at all.
Now, he made his claim on false assumptions, and all that needs to be done is for you 2 talk it out, all both of you want is the best for the shareholders, so there is no reason for this to be going on.
Torn, you should have sold the BPOs though, it was in the business plan, and none of this would have happened if you didn't flip them when the loans defaulted.
Regardless, you 2 should kill both of the threads, and issue a joint statement that actually clears this up, because as it stands, both of your reputations will be damaged.
|
Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 00:27:00 -
[4]
So.. why didnt you tell your shareholders the loan was defaulted.
Your lack of telling your shareholders that void's your argument as to the integrity of BMBE.
|
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 00:39:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/05/2007 00:36:31 How is Eefrit a cheat?
You are the one who did not disclose the default to shareholders.
In fact, you outright LIED about your net worth:
Originally by: Firid Soulbane
Quote: Total BMBE capital now : 102.788B ISK
Taken from BMBE report #6
How can you report that the total capital is 102.788b isk when its not?
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 00:44:00 -
[6]
Could you two take that to the other thread (BMBE version 2) - And I'll be happy to answer questions relating to the BMBE.
In fact I've already answered that bit.
How none of you comment on Eefrit's actions as shown above is... Well... You seem pretty outraged when you think I've done something wrong.
Double standards I guess.
Each to his.
BIG Lottery
|
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 00:49:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/05/2007 00:36:31 How is Eefrit a cheat?
You are the one who did not disclose the default to shareholders.
Originally by: Eefrit
There are only 4 options that I can see to explain this discrepancy:
a) TornSoul is skimming off the top b) Tornsoul is for some reason turning down loans which is loosing Isk for shareholders c) TornSoul has done something else with the Isk. On this point I find it strange that the total Isk available for loans is never reported on.
Originally by: Eefrit
Is TornSoul stealing from BMBE?
Quote: 21 <RayMc|BIG> the BPO were worthless when they were defaulted. selling them on then would've left us in the same position we are now. 22 <Eefrit> no they were not 23 (*1*)<Eefrit> a year ago they were being sold for 10-15 Bill Isk each
That should asnwer your question.
He made a thread where he posed a question he already knew the answer to in order to insinuate that Tornsoul was stealing from the BMBE.
Not only did he do that he tried to bribe the BMBE into selling to him and when that failed tried to extort them by telling them he would releaes the information he repeatedly claimed he did not know (just see the other thread to see how many times he lied in a row about not knowing).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
|
Verite Rendition
Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 00:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: TornSoul
How none of you comment on Eefrit's actions as shown above is... Well... You seem pretty outraged when you think I've done something wrong.
Double standards I guess.
Each to his.
Eefrit isn't holding 100bil of the public's money. You are.
As far as I'm concerned, Eefrit did what was needed to be done in order to expose the truth of the matter. He has done nothing but to help me in this situation, as now I have an idea of what's been going on in the last year.
Calling him names in this situation strikes me as you being desperate. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic |
Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/05/2007 00:36:31 How is Eefrit a cheat?
You are the one who did not disclose the default to shareholders.
Originally by: Eefrit
There are only 4 options that I can see to explain this discrepancy:
a) TornSoul is skimming off the top b) Tornsoul is for some reason turning down loans which is loosing Isk for shareholders c) TornSoul has done something else with the Isk. On this point I find it strange that the total Isk available for loans is never reported on.
Originally by: Eefrit
Is TornSoul stealing from BMBE?
Quote: 21 <RayMc|BIG> the BPO were worthless when they were defaulted. selling them on then would've left us in the same position we are now. 22 <Eefrit> no they were not 23 (*1*)<Eefrit> a year ago they were being sold for 10-15 Bill Isk each
That should asnwer your question.
He made a thread where he posed a question he already knew the answer to in order to insinuate that Tornsoul was stealing from the BMBE.
Not only did he do that he tried to bribe the BMBE into selling to him and when that failed tried to extort them by telling them he would releaes the information he repeatedly claimed he did not know (just see the other thread to see how many times he lied in a row about not knowing).
This coming from the guy that wouldnt give the one peice of information that would have protected bmbe from this whole even starting.
I also like how you never stated the size of the loan (roughly 1/3rd BMBE's value) at that time.
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Verite Rendition Eefrit isn't holding 100bil of the public's money. You are.
Erm.. Did you completly miss how this all started?
Eefrit wants nothing more than to do just that : Hold 100bill of public money (minus a 20B ISK bribe to me)
BIG Lottery
|
|
Chris Smith
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:07:00 -
[11]
This is Proton Power's alt, I am to lazy to switch characters atm.
First off I think people should have given TS time to come up with answers to E's concerns.
Second off I think if E did know the truth as it seems, he was in the wrong, I personally didnt get involved in this much so wont say more more on that.
Third off and most importantly, the biggest asset any IPO are these forums. Personally if your going to pay monthly divies you should be posting every other week with updates and whats going on. This I put on you TS, your a smart person and know this I am sure. If you had given more answers previously this would have probably never came up, not saying its right or wrong, but It could have been prevented.
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Marodi Julita
This coming from the guy that wouldnt give the one peice of information that would have protected bmbe from this whole even starting.
Protected BMBE?? From what?
Eefrit tried to blackmail me into handing over the BMBE ISK to him.
Why did that not work? Because I was not afraid of this info becomming public. Would I have prefered it done in a civil manner - Absolutly. (note the difference between "afraid" and "prefered" please)
But thats not how blackmailers work.
BIG Lottery
|
Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Marodi Julita
This coming from the guy that wouldnt give the one peice of information that would have protected bmbe from this whole even starting.
Protected BMBE?? From what?
Eefrit tried to blackmail me into handing over the BMBE ISK to him.
Why did that not work? Because I was not afraid of this info becomming public. Would I have prefered it done in a civil manner - Absolutly. (note the difference between "afraid" and "prefered" please)
But thats not how blackmailers work.
Was refering to Baun and how he let 4 pages of forum *****ing without giving up the info that you had a defaulted loan a while back. If he had said that in the begining this probably wouldn't be at the level it is now.
|
Verite Rendition
Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Verite Rendition Eefrit isn't holding 100bil of the public's money. You are.
Erm.. Did you completly miss how this all started?
Eefrit wants nothing more than to do just that : Hold 100bill of public money (minus a 20B ISK bribe to me)
What may happen is irrelevant compared to what did happen. If we get to the point where there's a serious offer on the table of Eefrit buying BMBE (which there has yet to be), then it will be a proper time to judge his character. In the mean time you're still the one holding the money. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic |
Simbri
Chav-Scum
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:22:00 -
[15]
last week there was local elections in the UK. As an adult i had the option to vote. I chose to not cast a vote. Theres a number of reasons as to why i didnt, the main one being that your trying to pick the best of a bad bunch.
In this same arguement im glad i didnt invest in BMBE and that i have no intention of investing in the Eefrit based option, because by investing in either id be putting my trust into the better of two bad ones.
The actions TS admitted to, and the actions Eefrit commited/exposed, shows that ppl are some what foolish to trust either of you with vast amount of money. TS seems to play a lazy unmotivated gameplan with late shareholder reports and lying about situations which any entity would consider vitally serious when 30% of the entities value is at stake. TS decided it (for whatever reason) best not to inform shareholders.
Eefit was stupid to lie about not knowing about it, yet trying to take the morale high ground against BMBE when he was doing little more than telling BMBE to rectify an issue or have it rectified for them.
How on earth anyone continues to trust either of these people with their isk is beyond belief. How one questions the integrity and honesty of another whilst commiting a similar lack of integrity and honestly reminds me of nothing more than bickering politicians trying to get one up on the other
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Simbri TS decided it (for whatever reason) best not to inform shareholders.
And thus the Big Lie that was told is perpetuated. Just hard to tell if the speaker of un-knowledge is one of the sheep or shepherds of this flock of tripe.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Verite Rendition What may happen is irrelevant compared to what did happen. If we get to the point where there's a serious offer on the table of Eefrit buying BMBE (which there has yet to be), then it will be a proper time to judge his character. In the mean time you're still the one holding the money.
You cant judge his character now? Sorry.. I dont follow that.
That log above with Eefrit showing all kinds of morally questionable actions did happen.
How can you turn a blind eye to that?
BIG Lottery
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:44:00 -
[18]
Simbri and otherwise sober post - a rare sight around here.
But I have to take objection to the following
Originally by: Simbri TS decided it (for whatever reason) best not to inform shareholders.
It was not a secret. If it was, how could so many ppl know about it? But yes, It was a grave mistake not doing more - Please see my shareholder post for the full explanation.
Originally by: Simbri
Eefit was stupid to lie about not knowing about it, yet trying to take the morale high ground against BMBE when he was doing little more than telling BMBE to rectify an issue or have it rectified for them.
He did more than just lie...
And he couldnt give a toss if BMBE "rectified an issue" or not. That was *never* his agenda. Look at the log. He offers to keep quiet, if I hand him back the bribe he is offering.
Again - Eefrit didnt care one bit if the shareholders where told this or not.
He simply used it as leverage in a failed blackmail attempt (when the bribe didnt take)
BIG Lottery
|
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:52:00 -
[19]
Okay, your argument is that: 1) Eefrit is a bad person because he is a liar.
YOU lied. BMBE report #6:
Originally by: TornSoul Total BMBE capital now : 102.788B ISK This equals a "value" of 51.394M ISK per share
ergo, you are an equally bad steward of our isk.
2) Eefrit has blackmailed you. He stood to gain NOTHING (directly, work with me here for a second) by revealing this. He was forcing your hand into doing your fiduciary duty, granted, but:
Originally by: "Princeton WebWN" # S: (n) blackmail (extortion of money by threats to divulge discrediting information)
So unless he makes money by doing this, it's not blackmail. Which leads us to:
3) Eefrit has extorted you. This is really the heart of your indignation. As I see it, Eefrit offered to buy out the company at its *TRUE* value, plus give you 20b isk for your trouble. As far as I can tell, that series of actions would COST him money. If this is incorrect, fine, but unless he is DIRECTLY MAKING MONEY from this threat, it would seem he's merely being quite direct with you. Now, if you think he's going to run off with the BMBE isk, fine, but he has a hell of a lot more to lose (EMFI would presumably put his escrowed FIN BPO's in jeopardy in response to any such scam) than you will lose as a result of this.
MY point #1: I repeat my immediate demand that you open up the lottery number selection and assignment process for public scrutiny. Per point #1, you are a liar and cannot be trusted to run the lottery correctly any more without extensive public oversight.
Thank you for your time.
MP
--
TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs. |
Lypert
Zemindar Supermacy
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 01:59:00 -
[20]
Tornsoul revenge attacks will only make things worse, you have lost credibility by failing to follow your business plan.
Quote: Hauling and recycling of collateral from defaulted loans - To turn it back into ISK for the shareholders.
What you are trying to do now, we all know about. Eerfit has tried to damage your reputation with your shareholders but you are destroying it more with potential shareholders by posting this thread.
Eerfit has lost some of his rep too from his thread.
-------------------------------------------------- Zemindar Supermacy is recruiting |
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 02:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet 2) Eefrit has blackmailed you. He stood to gain NOTHING (directly, work with me here for a second) by revealing this. He was forcing your hand into doing your fiduciary duty, granted, but:
Originally by: "Princeton WebWN" # S: (n) blackmail (extortion of money by threats to divulge discrediting information)
So unless he makes money by doing this, it's not blackmail. Which leads us to:
Eefrit stood to gain the management fee of the BMBE (although reduced, as he would lower it)
So yes : Blackmail - No matter how you dice it.
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
3) Eefrit has extorted you. This is really the heart of your indignation.
I couldnt give a toss if someone tries to extort me or not - I laugh at such people. It simply doesnt work with me.
My indignation is his attempt at discrediting me - *every way possibly*, even with untrues and what not.
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
As I see it, Eefrit offered to buy out the company at its *TRUE* value, plus give you 20b isk for your trouble. As far as I can tell, that series of actions would COST him money.
Eefrit wasnt going to spend as much as one ISK on this. His "offer" was simply for me to hand over the BMBE ISK and business to him - No expense on his part.
He was even willing to spend 20B of shareholder ISK as a bribe to me to agree to such a transaction.
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
MY point #1: I repeat my immediate demand that you open up the lottery number selection and assignment process for public scrutiny. Per point #1, you are a liar and cannot be trusted to run the lottery correctly any more without extensive public oversight.
Thank you for your time.
MP
How about you read the Lottery pages (link in my siggie) It's explained there.
It's rig proof - Both from me and from the contesters. I've even in the past offered up a 1B prize to anyone who could rig it (proof would be to win 3 times in a row or similar)
BIG Lottery
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 02:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lypert Tornsoul revenge attacks will only make things worse, you have lost credibility by failing to follow your business plan.
Quote: Hauling and recycling of collateral from defaulted loans - To turn it back into ISK for the shareholders.
It's beeing followed - and has never been deviated.
Originally by: Lypert
Eerfit has lost some of his rep too from his thread.
So I loose credibility simply by beeing accused of doing somethign I have not...
While Eefrit, a proven liar, blackmailer, briber and generally behaving unethically loose "some" of his rep...
Oh brother...
BIG Lottery
|
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 02:11:00 -
[23]
Eefrit did nothing wrong.
In business you lie. You just don't lie to your shareholders.
Eefrit is 100 percent clean.
|
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 02:26:00 -
[24]
Since no one is really saying what needs to be said I will, as is often the case.
Originally by: TornSoul Claim #1 : Eefrit is a liar Eefrit has *numerous* times claimed he had no idea about the defaulted 30B loan and the 2 skiff BPO's as collateral. ... Have a look at line 23 (*1*) From that it's obvious that he knows it's more than one print, and also which prints it is, how else would he know their worth?
Have a look at line 14 (*2*) He clearly demonstrates knowledge of when the default of the loan happened - Contracdictory to his forum claims that he has a theory, and some possibel explanations that some fishy must have happened around december. He claims to not know precisely what happened, but he has several theories, each ofc painting me in a bad light
Eefrit knew all along very well what the score was - In detail.
So - Eefrit is a liar
It's really hard to deny you know something, when that something is never defined. You might say I know something, but then again if I haven't the foggiest what you are you talking about, then it doesn't really matter. Context is everything.
So I would say, No, Eefrit is not a liar in that sense. That was just a bunch of round-robin bull**** with Baun. Furthermore it doesn't really matter if Eefrit knew it or not when he made the take over bid. It says a lot more to his business nature that he did know it and acted on it.
Quote:
Claim #2 : Eefrit is blackmailer
Have a look at line 07 (*2*)
It's the good old : Do as I say, or else. And if you do as I say, then nothing will happen
Dear Eefrit claims inforum posts to be oooh so upset about this whole affair, and is on his rightous crusade - How could he *possible* not tell the public about this terrible thing he has unearthed.
Yet, he offers to do nothing if the BMBE does his bidding. So much for that moral high ground he has bee claiming....
I see nowhere where it was offered to do nothing if you agreed. I think the assumption nothing would need to be done because you would come clean like you should. His intent was obviously getting the issue into the open.
Quote:
Claim #3 : Eefrit is a briber (not sure that is a word in fact... Someone who bribes people - a briber?)
Have a look at line 15 (*3*)
The offer refered to, is the 20B golden handshake he tries to lure me with.
"a way out" he says. Basically offering me 20B if I will just do as he wants.
Newsflash Eefrit : Not even for all the ISK in EVE would I ever do such a thing. But reading this I'm sure you would...
I think the irony of that deal would be that 20B would come out of the ISK that was inappropriately accounted for, provided the shareholders and assets were transfered properly and in that order.
Quote:
Claim #4 : Eefrit is a general cheat
He has cheated you all in this charade of his.
Claiming he doesnt know excactly what is wrong with the BMBE, but his unselfish self has at least determined that *something* is wrong, and he offers up theories for what that could be.
*He knew all along*!!!
It was all a ploy to try and discredit me personal and the BMBE, when neither his bribe nor his blackmail worked.
You just added this for sensationalism. The bribery and blackmail were not as you claim. Eefrit made it very obvious his bid was a hostile take over. He obviously had a plan and that plan involved discrediting you. Which worked might I add.
The worst thing you, Tornsoul, did in all of this was not respond. You could have hashed all of this up publicly yourself and Eefrit gave you this option. Instead you were offended by the offer and decided to let him "dig his own hole deeper", when in fact it was really your own grave. Now you get to live with it, and a lot less respect.
Game, Set, Match Eefrit: 1 Tornsoul: 0
I really didn't want to get involved in this, but I just can't stand people being wrong.
|
JonasML
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 02:36:00 -
[25]
Well, back to the mud slinging agian I see. From what I've seen in these posts, Eefrit has attempted to buyout BMBE and/or set up another corp to compete with it. He has also used information that he had in an attempt to nudge the BMBE heads in a direction that favored him. I don't know whether or not info on these BPO was released to the general publc, but it's obvious from other posts that some investors knew about, and agreed with, TS using those BPO to build with in an attempt to recoup the loss. That's just business sense. My question is what is Eefrit's source for all this info he has. I realize that atleast some of it was given to him when he made the offer, but for him to have details about the BPO that are being held as collateral, even ones that were defaulted on, makes me very nervous, and I don't even own stock with you guys. BTW, a bit more communication from you TS would have gone a long way to clearing this up in a timely manner.
|
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 02:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: TornSoul How about you read the Lottery pages (link in my siggie) It's explained there.
It's rig proof - Both from me and from the contesters. I've even in the past offered up a 1B prize to anyone who could rig it (proof would be to win 3 times in a row or similar)
I've read it, both FAQ and rules. Neither one has any way to ensure that you are not choosing the numbers (either modifying the winning number, or modifying the ticket numbers, it doesn't really matter) as you see fit so as to guarantee that an alt wins. If you did this every second, third, or--heck--tenth drawing, it'd be almost-impossible to spot.
I repeat my demand. Furthermore, since you've received prizes from AURORA in the past, I believe this is petitionable, no?
MP
--
TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs. |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 02:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: JonasML BTW, a bit more communication from you TS would have gone a long way to clearing this up in a timely manner.
The fact that a loan had defaulted was made publicly known in a shareholders report. That the loan was secured with two (2) t2 blueprint originals was also disclosed in that report. In that same thread, containing the report, one of the current faces tossing accusations even commented on the "potential" huge values involved. The specific details regarding the loan; Who and how much; was not disclosed. This was a decision well within the scope of BMBE's management to make. The true extent of any losses were not easily identified nor fully realized until further Acts of CCP/Dev totally compounded the situation into a crap sandwich. Acting within the scope of management's discretion, again, a decision was made how best to make lemonade out of a lemon. Of course stating the plain and obvious, again, is not worth the effort. Everyone will keep tossing around the number 30 Billion becuase... it will keep the Big Lie going. To do so you have to keep saying it over and over again. "TS lost 30 Billion, TS lost 30 Billion, ad infinitum, ad nauseum." I qoute: Quote: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it
What is most troubling is who these big lie tellers are emulating. Seems we, the masses, are as moronic now as we were 60 something years ago. Art imitates life. > woohoo<
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 03:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shar Tegral stuff
Stop saying nonsense. Just because TS mentioned something about a loan default and shrugged it off does not mean that he told about 30 billion loan default that constituted 30 percent of his capital. And then you go on accusing normally thinking people of spin.
|
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 03:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: JonasML BTW, a bit more communication from you TS would have gone a long way to clearing this up in a timely manner.
The fact that a loan had defaulted was made publicly known in a shareholders report. That the loan was secured with two (2) t2 blueprint originals was also disclosed in that report. In that same thread, containing the report, one of the current faces tossing accusations even commented on the "potential" huge values involved. The specific details regarding the loan; Who and how much; was not disclosed. This was a decision well within the scope of BMBE's management to make. The true extent of any losses were not easily identified nor fully realized until further Acts of CCP/Dev totally compounded the situation into a crap sandwich. Acting within the scope of management's discretion, again, a decision was made how best to make lemonade out of a lemon. Of course stating the plain and obvious, again, is not worth the effort. Everyone will keep tossing around the number 30 Billion becuase... it will keep the Big Lie going. To do so you have to keep saying it over and over again. "TS lost 30 Billion, TS lost 30 Billion, ad infinitum, ad nauseum." I qoute: Quote: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it
What is most troubling is who these big lie tellers are emulating. Seems we, the masses, are as moronic now as we were 60 something years ago. Art imitates life. > woohoo<
Quit trying to rephrase my, and others', anger with regards to this situation. Nobody cares about BMBE losing 30 billion. While I haven't lost anywhere near that much, Proton's gotten scammed out of hundreds of millions in BPO's by r0meo, O'Mara got his freighter ransomed for 500m because he screwed up and clicked the wrong button, and I'm sure others have taken similar losses. It's a game, and it's business, and in both, you occasionally take a loss.
What EVERYONE is upset about is that this was not reported. Indeed, it was the exact OPPOSITE of reported; it was covered up in BMBE report #6 when TS stated the corp value.
Separately, the only reason the actual NUMBER keeps getting mentioned is the fact that this isn't RL, and books are expected to be a bit fuzzy. I said elsewhere in one of these threads that I'd fully accept a public company in Eve reporting that its books are off by 10% or less. But this is almost a third of the company's pre-loss value, nearly half of its remaining value. It's not the equivalent of--to name a specific example of where I have failed similarly but don't find myself at fault--me having 50 t2 railguns sitting somewhere in Empire right now that I still book at 4.25m apiece, despite the fact that they're now cheaper than that in Jita.
MP
--
TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs. |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 03:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Rthor Stop saying nonsense. Just because TS mentioned something about a loan default and shrugged it off does not mean that he told about 30 billion loan default that constituted 30 percent of his capital. And then you go on accusing normally thinking people of spin.
Hello, how's the popcorn? Spin has never been my mark in trade... ever. Won't stop you from claiming that though. I respond with the unedited post here. I could say that the decisions that BMBE management made were in " grave error" but that would be taking the words from TornSoul's mouth. I guess the only thing I could spin from this... your comment to me freshens up my day with the love love joy joy feelings you always seem to share with me. Because you asked, and obviously need the attention, the others mean nothing to me and it is you that I love and your children I want to bear.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 03:18:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet Quit trying to rephrase my, and others', anger with regards to this situation.
Anger I understand... and agree with. But this circus has gone on long enough and everyone, everyone, is acting the fool atm. I'm just being as dispassionate as can be atm. Call it perverse if you will... perhaps it's just the dousing of cold water so many of us need. lol... I just look forward to the day that I'll be made to rue saying I wanted to have Rthor's children. (If you step back a bit you may see the humor of this situation.)
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 03:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Motivated Prophet Quit trying to rephrase my, and others', anger with regards to this situation.
Anger I understand... and agree with. But this circus has gone on long enough and everyone, everyone, is acting the fool atm. I'm just being as dispassionate as can be atm. Call it perverse if you will... perhaps it's just the dousing of cold water so many of us need. lol... I just look forward to the day that I'll be made to rue saying I wanted to have Rthor's children. (If you step back a bit you may see the humor of this situation.)
I stand ready to email my accounting spreadsheet to any mutually-trusted third party for auditing at any time. That's my golden standard of accounting.
MP
--
TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs. |
Treelox
Amarr Frontier Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 03:34:00 -
[33]
man what i wouldnt give to be a fly on the wall of eefrits computer room when he wakes up in a few hours and reads this thread.
TS thanks for bumping the drama up a whole notch with this thread. --
FTEK | Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Omber Zombie's Wet Work |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 03:36:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet That's my golden standard of accounting. MP
To not respond might be insulting to you especially when you lay out the lines and limits of your honor so firmly. Any other response from me would say that it is not enough... ... so will you accept that I think the above post, while commendable, does not belong in this thread nor do you need to defend yourself in any way. That's what I think mind you. And with that I'm going to bed to see what crap this particular Monday brings. Just like every other Monday morning.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
DeathGrip
Amarr Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 04:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Motivated Prophet Quit trying to rephrase my, and others', anger with regards to this situation.
Anger I understand... and agree with. But this circus has gone on long enough and everyone, everyone, is acting the fool atm. I'm just being as dispassionate as can be atm. Call it perverse if you will... perhaps it's just the dousing of cold water so many of us need. lol... I just look forward to the day that I'll be made to rue saying I wanted to have Rthor's children. (If you step back a bit you may see the humor of this situation.)
I stand ready to email my accounting spreadsheet to any mutually-trusted third party for auditing at any time. That's my golden standard of accounting.
MP
Motivated,
I am 100% certain the BIG lottery is not rigged. YOu can see your numbers before the lottery starts, and the people that choose the winning number is anyone that chooses to join in on it. I would put my rep on that.
What I don't think you guys realize is that TS could walk away with all the isk and be done with the entire thing atm. So I would watch how hard you attack personally. He explained what happend, probably should have been explained much earlier but nothing you can do about that now.
TBH I dont like what E did with this the more I think about it and read through the theads. He knew the entire time what happend to this isk, and instead of making a report about that and how how TS never shared that info he implied TS was scimming isk off the top.
And Last, this is a game, have fun, kill stuff, and if your really ticked at TS or E go find them and pod them. If you dont like what I said here come find me and pod me, its all in a days work.
|
Barbicane
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 07:58:00 -
[36]
I'm glad I waited to hear both sides of the story before I made my judgement, and here it is:
* TS is a fool for attempting to cover up that 30B loss a year ago.
* Eefrit is a fool for putting his own reputation on the line, trying to backstab TS.
* The biggest fools are probably some members of "the forum mob" who tried to use the unfolding drama to improve on their own reputations, but they didn't have any real knowledge about where to go so they just followed the pack and tried to bark louder than everybody else.
* I'm a fool for spending the past 2 hours reading game forums instead of going to work, and probably also for not knowing when to keep my mouth shut
Originally by: DeathGrip And Last, this is a game, have fun, kill stuff, and if your really ticked at TS or E go find them and pod them. If you dont like what I said here come find me and pod me, its all in a days work.
QFT.
|
Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 09:10:00 -
[37]
I reckon the important points in this drama has been voiced out, and readers are free to stick on posts supporting their personal biases.
For my impression of characteristics of the main players:
Tornsoul - Stubborn fellow who is difficult to deal with, but will follow his principles. Likely not to do the things in the way I would want, but is pretty predictable.
Eefrit - Business shark, who eagerly goes after his goals, using what ever method seems the best for the situation. Effective, if you can trust his goals are the same as yours.
-Lasse with encorced bias against Eefrit
|
Lemonx
Ascent of Ages Dark Matter Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 09:57:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Lemonx on 07/05/2007 09:53:34
Originally by: Heikki
For my impression of characteristics of the main players
My impression is that Eefrit will do what is in his shareholders best interest, while TS does whats in his and BIGs best interest.
|
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 11:18:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lemonx
Originally by: Heikki For my impression of characteristics of the main players
My impression is that Eefrit will do what is in his shareholders best interest, while TS does whats in his and BIGs best interest.
I'd say that Eefrit is doing mostly what is in his best interest, but fortunately for us that also overlaps with the shareholders' best interest.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 13:19:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 07/05/2007 13:22:39 Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 07/05/2007 13:21:03 so, when the loan was defaulted on, you could've pretty much recouped the losses by selling those BPOs, instead of just casually mentioning it and ignoring it?
and you're in direct control of how many billions?
does eefrit issue divs? on time? with little words here and there talking to the shareholders? does eefrit at the VERY least, pretend (if not actually do) listen to shareholders?
does eefrit take 40% of the profits on his public ventures and then not communicate much at all about anything to his shareholders?
wow. seriously.
tell me again why you guys have invested so much in this venture? is it because of the tons of divs you get, or just because you like feeling victimized by someone who doesn't seem to care if you make *real* profit this decade or not? (real profit = your investment back 100% and making more than that, just fyi) |
|
Hexxx
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 14:40:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Hexxx on 07/05/2007 14:38:36 Bottom line to everything:
As long as a person/public corp is working towards the BEST interests of their shareholders/investors, whatever else they do is rather unimportant (like kicking puppies or attempting hostile takeovers).
That's called capitalism. Or, to quote Gordon Gekko (played by Michael Douglas) from the film Wallstreet; "Greed is good."
As a market pundit, my opinion is that TS should have been more transparent. However, I do value professionalism as well on a personal level, and E could have exercised more of that.
As long as both of them continue to work in the best interests of their own respective investors/shareholders I'm not terribly bothered to be honest.
I'll finish this with the short speech which spawned the "Greed is good" ethos.
The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that: Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right; greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge ù has marked the upward surge of mankind.
edit: stockmarket pvp?
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
|
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 14:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Hexxx Edited by: Hexxx on 07/05/2007 14:38:36 Bottom line to everything:
As long as a person/public corp is working towards the BEST interests of their shareholders/investors, whatever else they do is rather unimportant (like kicking puppies or attempting hostile takeovers).
That's called capitalism. Or, to quote Gordon Gekko (played by Michael Douglas) from the film Wallstreet; "Greed is good."
As a market pundit, my opinion is that TS should have been more transparent. However, I do value professionalism as well on a personal level, and E could have exercised more of that.
As long as both of them continue to work in the best interests of their own respective investors/shareholders I'm not terribly bothered to be honest.
I'll finish this with the short speech which spawned the "Greed is good" ethos.
The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that: Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right; greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge ù has marked the upward surge of mankind.
edit: stockmarket pvp?
just so i understand you correctly, you're saying that tornsoul IS working for the best interests of his shareholder? |
Hexxx
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 15:12:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Hexxx on 07/05/2007 15:11:45
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
just so i understand you correctly, you're saying that tornsoul IS working for the best interests of his shareholder?
Public Disclosure: Before I answer, please understand that some may think I have a conflict of interest here. I consulted for FIN and assisted in the IPO launch. Please use your own judgement when it comes to evaluating what I'm about to say. I understand that some may be skeptical of my motives, my only response is that I have a proven history of acting and moving towards the best interests of the market. I do not own any shares of FIN or BMBE.
Now, that said, Torn Soul (and this is true for ALL Corporations that are owned publically by investors/shareholders) has a responsibility for TIMELY and COMPLETE reporting. Statements on net assets and losses (even ones caused by depreciation, as was the case here) are VERY important. I can't emphasis this enough.
Staying quiet for any reason (barring RL emergencies), especially when your investors are anxious to hear from you is extremely troubling.
TS gave E the ammunition here. E decided to use it.
---------------------------
edit: I'm not trying to marginalize TS, his accomplishments are of note and should be recognized.
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
|
Flying Spur
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 15:15:00 -
[44]
How could he sell the skiff BPO and recoup the costs??? the prices had crashed for them due to the patch, which is the whole reason why the loan defaulted in the first place he would have got no way near the amount needed to recover the lost money.
As he has already stated, he decided not to sell the BPO straight away to see if the prices would stabilise and he could recoup a larger portion of the lost isk, wouldnt you say that is in the businesses best interests????
--- The Rolls-Royce of EVE Pilots |
Johnny ReeRee
The ReeRee Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 15:19:00 -
[45]
A complete disgrace of a thread from Tornsoul. He has every right to respond to Eefrit's accusations -- in fact, he has a DUTY to answer to his shareholders for his horrendous stewardship of their isk.
But the tone and manner and laughably weak argumentation here from Tornsoul just makes it clear that trusting this clown with any isk at all is a big mistake.
Basically, you just made Eefrit's point. Well done, Tornsoul.
|
Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 16:05:00 -
[46]
For the record I have posted my response in a new thread which you can find here.
If you have quite finished with the name calling TornSoul can you please get round to answering my questions I posted that have still yet to be answered.
Thanks,
Eefrit
|
SonOfAGhost
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 17:11:00 -
[47]
Originally by: TornSoul Claim #1 : Eefrit is a liar
Eefrit has *numerous* times claimed he had no idea about the defaulted 30B loan and the 2 skiff BPO's as collateral.
As was already pointed out, he claimed numerous times not that he didn't know about the loan/BPOS, but that he had no idea what Baun was talking about because Baun wouldn't say. Even if he did know about the Skiff BPOs that doesn't make him a mind reader that they were what Baun was on about.
Assume for a moment though that he knew about them. He also knew about the obscenely high interest being charged customers, which is more than enough that the bank should have recovered such a loss prior to December, combined with the previous reports indicating there was no loss, presumably because stated BMBE policy was followed and the BPOs sold off to recover the defaulted funds. He certainly knew the pay scale for management and non-payment to shareholders. All of which adds up to BMBE having a lot more than 70 bil in December. Assuming your post-default statement of value was true the value of BMBE shoudld have grown by now to be somewhere between 2 and 300 billion, not stagnant at 70. Thus leading to an assumption if no isk was available in December that something else had gone horribly wrong since the Skiffs. Something fishy did happen in December, Eefrits mistake was assuming that it only happened recently when infact it was the same smell and had been accumulating for months.
Did he know about the Skiffs? Perhaps, it's been less than a day since TS waited for Eefrit to call it a night before posting this so as to ambush him, we'll see what he says. Was it reasonable for anyone to expect that loss would still be such a major problem for BMBE so much time later? Definitely not. Originally by: TornSoul Claim #2 : Eefrit is blackmailer
Have a look at line 07 (*2*)
It's the good old : Do as I say, or else. And if you do as I say, then nothing will happen
No, it's the old, 'I'm giving you a deadline to to the right/honourable thing and come clean or I'll expose you myself.'
Originally by: TornSoul How could he *possible* not tell the public about this terrible thing he has unearthed.
Yes, how could he possibly not tell the public about the terrible things he DID unearth?
Originally by: TornSoul Yet, he offers to do nothing if the BMBE does his bidding. So much for that moral high ground he has bee claiming....
I don't see an offer to do nothing, I see acknowledement that you could relieve him of the duty to do something by doing it yourself. There wouldn't be a need to expose you if you were honest in the first place, or even later in response to his ultimatum.
This isn't blackmail, this is giving you an opportunity to redeem yourself and save your reputation. An opportunity you chose not to accept and now you're seeing the cost of the choice you made. Originally by: TornSoul Claim #3 : Eefrit is a briber
Have a look at line 15 (*3*)
"a way out" he says. Basically offering me 20B if I will just do as he wants.
I guess I can see where that interpretation comes from. Let me posit another one. Wanting to take-over BMBE he recognized that the CEO had a vested interest in not selling, regardless of whether it was in the shareholder interests. By offering a buy-out so it became zero-sum for the CEO he relieved that conflict of interest in hopes that you would then only consider the shareholders interests and not your own.
|
SonOfAGhost
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 17:12:00 -
[48]
Originally by: TornSoul Claim #4 : Eefrit is a general cheat
He has cheated you all in this charade of his.
Claiming he doesnt know excactly what is wrong with the BMBE, but his unselfish self has at least determined that *something* is wrong, and he offers up theories for what that could be.
*He knew all along*!!!
It was all a ploy to try and discredit me personal and the BMBE, when neither his bribe nor his blackmail worked.
Charade? The only charade I see is you trying to use a loss from over a year ago to explain being down 30% now. That just doesn't wash. How could he know that someone would run one of the biggest public corps in Eve and not make any recovery at all in over a year? Since nobody would believe that it's natrual to look for other explanations. We STILL don't know what is wrong with BMBE currently or in December when Eefrit's suspicions were aroused. Only where things started to go wrong a long time ago. Yes, BMBE and yourself have lost a great deal of credibility, and will continue to do so until you have some answers instead of trying to distract people with accusations of your own. Don't blame Eefrit or any of the forum warriors for that though, it's mostly your own doing, with a bit of help from Baun.
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 17:26:00 -
[49]
SonOfAGhost did you even read the numbers in the BMBE report (version 2)?
You probably did, but comes of as if you didnt...
BIG Lottery
|
SonOfAGhost
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 19:18:00 -
[50]
Originally by: TornSoul In case of liquidation this makes each share (not counting the skiff prints for simplicity) worth 40,948,664 ISK
I read it, comes off as if you didn't though. As others have pointed out already, yours isn't the only public corp to take a loss. The problem is how you have (not) dealt with it and continue to ignore it.
|
|
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 21:21:00 -
[51]
It seems very clear that both TS and Eefrit have been playing fast and loose with the truth.
TS directly reporting a lie about the books in a previous report for example.
Eefrit about not knowing what this was all about when he did.
There is a big difference to me. One is responsible to his shareholders and directly lied to them. The other lied in a manner that would bring to light evidence that would discredit his competition.
I personally think I'd be more likely to invest with Eefrit after all these posts and I'd never think of investing with TS. Eefrit didn't tell the whole truth and intentionally tried to screw over TS and BMBE... but I see that as being an extremely ruthless business person. He got information that he could use to his advantage and used it and it worked amazingly well for him as it has completely destroyed TS's reputation in the eyes of many.
TS on the other hand has come off as a shady character who is VERY slow to respond to claims, get aggravated easily and intentionally hid information from all his investors.
One lie does not equal another lie. Some are worse than others. Eefrit is a jerk, sure... but he is a jerk that will do whatever he can to destroy his competition. That seems like a good person to have working with your money as opposed to someone who takes your money and then lies about how he is using it/losing it.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 21:57:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Shadarle There is a big difference to me. One is responsible to his shareholders and directly lied to them. The other lied in a manner that would bring to light evidence that would discredit his competition.
Pray tell what makes you think Eefrit would not use the same dirty tricks towards his shareholders?
And Eefrit did much more than just lie.
Through and through unethical and morally challenged behaviour from the get go. From the get go!
Pray tell why you think he would not dispense the same behaviour towards his shareholders?
From my point of view - It looks as he would stop at nothing getting what he wants, beeing completly indifferent to any morals or ethics involved - Regardless who he screws over in the process. Shareholders or not.
It's an honest question I'm asking, as the attitude displayed by many here simply amazes me.
It's a "he wont do it to me" attitude.
I simply dont get it - So I'll repeat : The question is honest meant and not a flame or whatever.
BIG Lottery
|
Balogh
Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 22:14:00 -
[53]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Shadarle There is a big difference to me. One is responsible to his shareholders and directly lied to them. The other lied in a manner that would bring to light evidence that would discredit his competition.
Pray tell what makes you think Eefrit would not use the same dirty tricks towards his shareholders?
Shareholders don't write reports, nor do they pay dividends or run public corporations (not taking EMFI into account). If you consider revealing inconsistencies to be dirty tricks, then yes, I would like Eefrit (or anyone else) to perform said tricks again, if needed. ______________________________ Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 22:23:00 -
[54]
Edited by: TornSoul on 07/05/2007 22:19:45
Originally by: Balogh
If you consider revealing inconsistencies to be dirty tricks, then yes, I would like Eefrit (or anyone else) to perform said tricks again, if needed.
It's the way its done. The means used. Or do you belive the goal justifies the means?
And let me itereate once more : Eefrit didnt give a toss if this was "revealed" or not.
Eefrit did not care.
Eefrit was prepared to sit on that info - and *not* "reveal" it.
Eefrit is/was not a "fighter for truths" as you would like to portray him.
Eefrit didnt give a damn about "The Truth".
Eefrit would just as gladly have kept his mouth shut.
BIG Lottery
|
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 22:37:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/05/2007 22:38:28
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Balogh If you consider revealing inconsistencies to be dirty tricks, then yes, I would like Eefrit (or anyone else) to perform said tricks again, if needed.
It's the way its done. The means used. Or do you belive the goal justifies the means?
And let me itereate once more : Eefrit didnt give a toss if this was "revealed" or not.
Eefrit did not care.
Eefrit was prepared to sit on that info - and *not* "reveal" it.
Eefrit is/was not a "fighter for truths" as you would like to portray him.
Eefrit didnt give a damn about "The Truth".
Eefrit would just as gladly have kept his mouth shut.
Which he coincidently did for 4-5 months - Until ofc he saw a way that he could use the info for his own means.
If he hadnt - You wouldnt have heard a peep from Eefrit about this - Same as you didnt for those 4-5 months.
Eefrit's actions do not change the fact that you have lied to your shareholders.
Stop trying to derail this with ad hominem attacks. Don't attack the messenger, confront the message. I don't care about Eefrit. I don't care if he eats babies, kills puppies, and clubs baby seals. He doesn't matter. What matters is what you did, and the fact that you haven't apologized or explained it.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 22:44:00 -
[56]
Derailing???
*YOU* are the one derailing - This thread is about Eefrit - Not me.
Theres other threads where you can bash me in if you wish, and I'll answer - But not here.
BIG Lottery
|
Hexxx
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 22:48:00 -
[57]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Shadarle There is a big difference to me. One is responsible to his shareholders and directly lied to them. The other lied in a manner that would bring to light evidence that would discredit his competition.
Pray tell what makes you think Eefrit would not use the same dirty tricks towards his shareholders?
And Eefrit did much more than just lie.
Through and through unethical and morally challenged behaviour from the get go. From the get go!
Pray tell why you think he would not dispense the same behaviour towards his shareholders?
From my point of view - It looks as he would stop at nothing getting what he wants, beeing completly indifferent to any morals or ethics involved - Regardless who he screws over in the process. Shareholders or not.
It's an honest question I'm asking, as the attitude displayed by many here simply amazes me.
It's a "he wont do it to me" attitude.
I simply dont get it - So I'll repeat : The question is honest meant and not a flame or whatever.
Because right now, Eefrit is acting in the best interests of his shareholders. His aggressive hostile takeover (you could call his offer that I suppose) is a way to add to his bottom line.
Eefrit has (historically) always operated in the best interests of his investors.
However, you have not. You were not completely transparent in your reporting and were forced to revise your reports after your investors pressured you to.
At the end of the day, we have a purely capitalistic system here. My only concern is shareholder rights in this case, as that is sacred. How people treat their competition and other businesses is of little to no concern.
Is it fair? No. It doesn't have to be.
Is it moral? Probably not.
Ethical? If by ethics you mean "make investors money" then yes.
Your investors and shareholders should never be lied to when it comes to your accounting.
You broke this rule, Eefrit did not.
----------------------------------------------
I'm actually very impressed with what you've accomplished, please don't get the impression I'm not. You have a great brand, without question. What I'm bothered by is the reporting question (reporting on the value of your collateral seized) and the name calling which I personally don't care for.
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
|
Balogh
Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 22:57:00 -
[58]
Originally by: TornSoul Edited by: TornSoul on 07/05/2007 22:19:45
Originally by: Balogh
If you consider revealing inconsistencies to be dirty tricks, then yes, I would like Eefrit (or anyone else) to perform said tricks again, if needed.
It's the way its done. The means used. Or do you belive the goal justifies the means?
So let me get this straight.
BMBE lost 30 bil because of a defaulted loan. Shareholder reports have been lacking crucial information (see below), at least until the previous report. Reports were often late. Dividends were often late. Dividends were often zero.
Eefrit posted information about inconsistencies he found out by taking a loan, paying interest and doing math. Eefrit also posted four possible explanations. At that time, option d (TornSoul is not reporting accurately to all investors) was the most likely option. Eefrit previously offered a hostile takeover, which expired after 14 days without being rejected.
Before Eefrit posted the information, things were already inconsistent. His post did not change that. Anyone could have done the same as Eefrit did. But not everyone has access to expensive BPOs and willing to invest time and research into this. Eefrit owns a lot of BPOs, and apparently was willing to do the research. That means he's either very inquisitive, or he might have something to gain from all this. In any case, anyone could have found out about this information and posted it.
So, you state that the fact that Eefrit might gain something (or a lot, who knows) far outweighs the issues I've outlined above?
---
About reporting:
I expect shareholder reports to contain at the very least current net worth (NAV) and paid dividend. All BMBE shareholder reports (until this one) contain paid dividend, dividend per share and reinvestment amounts. The dividend per share and reinvestment amounts are calculated values. By knowing the amount of shares (2000) and the amount of reinvestment (20%), you can calculate them from the total amount of paid dividend. Net worth is not a calculated value. There is no relation between the net worth and paid dividends. No recent BMBE shareholder report (except the last one) reported the net worth. The net worth is an important figure, as it allows shareholders to reasonably determine the value of their shares, when combined with the amount of dividend. However, with the net worth value missing, there is no way to determine the share value.
A report with only the current net worth and paid dividends is a basic report. A better report includes things like income, expenses and in the context of BMBE, the amount of outstanding loans. However, while nice to know, they are not critical to share valuation.
Quote:
Eefrit did not care.
How do you know he does not care?
Quote:
Eefrit was prepared to sit on that info - and *not* "reveal" it.
I have addressed this in the first section.
Quote:
Eefrit is/was not a "fighter for truths" as you would like to portray him.
I am not portraying anybody. If you read my post again, I am using Eefrit as an example. Note the '(or anyone else)' directly following 'Eefrit'.
Quote:
Eefrit didnt give a damn about "The Truth".
Eefrit would just as gladly have kept his mouth shut.
Again, how do you know? ______________________________ Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 23:06:00 -
[59]
Edited by: TornSoul on 07/05/2007 23:01:56
Originally by: Balogh About reporting:
I expect shareholder reports to contain at the very least current net worth (NAV) and paid dividend. All BMBE shareholder reports (until this one) contain paid dividend, dividend per share and reinvestment amounts. The dividend per share and reinvestment amounts are calculated values. By knowing the amount of shares (2000) and the amount of reinvestment (20%), you can calculate them from the total amount of paid dividend. Net worth is not a calculated value. There is no relation between the net worth and paid dividends. No recent BMBE shareholder report (except the last one) reported the net worth. The net worth is an important figure, as it allows shareholders to reasonably determine the value of their shares, when combined with the amount of dividend. However, with the net worth value missing, there is no way to determine the share value.
A report with only the current net worth and paid dividends is a basic report. A better report includes things like income, expenses and in the context of BMBE, the amount of outstanding loans. However, while nice to know, they are not critical to share valuation.
Good stuff.
Originally by: Balogh
Quote:
Eefrit didnt give a damn about "The Truth".
Eefrit would just as gladly have kept his mouth shut.
Again, how do you know?
Read the log. He offers to not post the info.
BIG Lottery
|
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 23:08:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/05/2007 23:04:48
Originally by: TornSoul Derailing???
*YOU* are the one derailing - This thread is about Eefrit - Not me.
Theres other threads where you can bash me in if you wish, and I'll answer - But not here.
This entire thread exists because you are attempting to derail discussion from you back to Eefrit.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 23:09:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Imperius Blackheart
Personally I refuse to believe Eefrit is any of the things levelled at him
Eefrit has validated the log to be genuine.
So the content is not in question.
So - Believe it.
BIG Lottery
|
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 23:11:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/05/2007 23:04:48
Originally by: TornSoul Derailing???
*YOU* are the one derailing - This thread is about Eefrit - Not me.
Theres other threads where you can bash me in if you wish, and I'll answer - But not here.
This entire thread exists because you are attempting to derail discussion from you back to Eefrit.
Would dearly love to see you post the excact same thing, with names exchanged, in the new thread Eefrit opened up.
But nooooo
At least you are admitting you where off-topic. Thanks.
BIG Lottery
|
Dreck Morrison
Amarr No Quarter.
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 23:45:00 -
[63]
This whole thread pains me to read. Because this is a game and not your life savings. This should be a valuable situation for all.
TS has proven to me in the past that he is a trustworthy steward of many players assets with the BS BPO share program. I bought my first 3 BS BPOs this way one installment at a time through him. Every week for over 1 year he supplied the BPCs on time and when the final installment was made he always supplied the BPO. The dedication he showed to the game and keeping his word tells me he isn't here for the SCAMZORZPWNAGE that all the other non-names are.
I have not had any direct dealings with Eefrit but I have actively followed his stocks and reports on this forum. He also seems to be a good steward of his investeors monies with updates and dividends.
The only fault I see is that TS got lazy around the holidays and did not quickly respond to a serious situation caused by the patch. In this game losses will happen and they are usually severe (to both wallet and ships). As far as I can tell this one infraction does not condemn the man but should be a life lesson on better openess to the shareholders. It was earlier said the forums are the biggest value you have once your integrity is proven - and in this investment business, more frequent communication is highly valued.
I personally think that this has been good drama from both TS and Eefrit and I wish them the best at continuing to make this wonderful game interesting. Heck, I might even still invest in either of them if they had a good idea and a way to openly communicate what they are doing. It is a sad day when the truley "honest" players of Eve are finger pointing at each other saying SCAMZORZPWNAGE right there (and even sadder when both are slightly right). Dammit go use this energy to make isk for your shareholders. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.05.08 01:50:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/05/2007 01:48:29
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: TornSoul Derailing??? *YOU* are the one derailing - This thread is about Eefrit - Not me.
Theres other threads where you can bash me in if you wish, and I'll answer - But not here.
This entire thread exists because you are attempting to derail discussion from you back to Eefrit.
Would dearly love to see you post the excact same thing, with names exchanged, in the new thread Eefrit opened up.
But nooooo
At least you are admitting you where off-topic. Thanks.
No, I'm not "off topic".
The subject of Eefrit's supposed "lying" is directly related to your actual "lying."
Stop avoiding the issues. YOU LIED TO SHAREHOLDERS ABOUT BMBE'S NET WORTH. You have not explained why, or apologized. Instead, you accuse Eefrit of lying to try to cover up your own dishonesty.
Why not just let it out, apologize, and let that be it? If you actually cared about your shareholders, that's what you'd do; it would end here and now, and the drama would be gone. But you seem to insist on continuing the drama by refusing to admit guilt and refusing to apologize, and instead trying to push blame onto everyone but yourself.
This is not conduct I would expect from a CEO. This is conduct I would expect from a scammer. You're not a scammer; you should know better.
It is as if you came out a few days ago and decided you would destroy your four years of hard-earned reputation in just one week. You seem to be doing very well at it.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.05.08 03:12:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
No, I'm not "off topic".
The subject of Eefrit's supposed "lying" is directly related to your actual "lying."
The problem with that is that Eefrit actual lied (repeatedly) for his own personal gain (despite claiming it was for the benefit of others) and Tornsoul has not lied.
I do not know why you want to insist that Eefrit is sitting in an ivory tower. No one is debating that TS made a bad decision but its objectively clear that Eefrit lied.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
|
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.05.08 03:20:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/05/2007 03:18:01
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Dark Shikari
No, I'm not "off topic".
The subject of Eefrit's supposed "lying" is directly related to your actual "lying."
The problem with that is that Eefrit actual lied (repeatedly) for his own personal gain (despite claiming it was for the benefit of others) and Tornsoul has not lied.
I do not know why you want to insist that Eefrit is sitting in an ivory tower. No one is debating that TS made a bad decision but its objectively clear that Eefrit lied.
I'm not talking about Eefrit.
Tornsoul stated in BMBE report number 6 that BMBE assets were 102B. They were not, and Tornsoul knew this full well. How is that not lying? And answer the damn question, don't play roundabout with me.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
|
Posted - 2007.05.08 03:24:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Quote:
Claim #2 : Eefrit is blackmailer
Have a look at line 07 (*2*)
It's the good old : Do as I say, or else. And if you do as I say, then nothing will happen
Dear Eefrit claims inforum posts to be oooh so upset about this whole affair, and is on his rightous crusade - How could he *possible* not tell the public about this terrible thing he has unearthed.
Yet, he offers to do nothing if the BMBE does his bidding. So much for that moral high ground he has bee claiming....
I see nowhere where it was offered to do nothing if you agreed. I think the assumption nothing would need to be done because you would come clean like you should. His intent was obviously getting the issue into the open.
It's really sad I had to quote myself. Tornsoul please work on your reading comprehension.
|
Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
|
Posted - 2007.05.08 03:26:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Dark Shikari
No, I'm not "off topic".
The subject of Eefrit's supposed "lying" is directly related to your actual "lying."
The problem with that is that Eefrit actual lied (repeatedly) for his own personal gain (despite claiming it was for the benefit of others) and Tornsoul has not lied.
I do not know why you want to insist that Eefrit is sitting in an ivory tower. No one is debating that TS made a bad decision but its objectively clear that Eefrit lied.
And you intentionally failed to tell the public info that would have kept this from boiling over. Who are you to criticize eefrit.
|
Hexxx
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.05.08 04:11:00 -
[69]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Hexxx Your investors and shareholders should never be lied to when it comes to your accounting.
You broke this rule, Eefrit did not.
I know I'm not gonna convince you but.. Here goes.
Each and everyone here is a potential shareholder to Eefrit's schemes. (some less potential than others ofc )
Eefrit has lied to each and everyone of you here.
So you think he is suddenly going to change his mind, because you are suddenly not a "potential" shareholder anymore, but have actaully bought into his scheme??
Eefrit has lied to each and everyone here - Shareholders and non-shareholders alike.
I put to you that Eefrit does *not* make that distinction. He *does not* care. He lies when it bloody well suits him. He doesnt care about the truth.
If you wish to belive that Eefrit will suddenly stop lieing to you because you buy some shares in one of his schemes then... I wish you luck.
A potential shareholder to Eefrit's schemes?
This is a nonsensical statement and also completely incorrect.
Also, why should a shareholder care what Eefrit's scheme is towards the competition? As long as Eefrit is HONEST WITH HIS REPORTING to his own shareholders and is making his investors money on their investments, this is a NON-ISSUE.
You gave Eefrit ammo to attack you, then accuse him of lieing to EVERYONE because he pointed out a problem with your reports. Now you're painting him the villain because he didn't point it out sooner?
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
|
|
Zhuge Liang
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
|
Posted - 2007.05.08 18:47:00 -
[70]
Not explicitly related to the market theme of this forum. please use this thread in the COAD forum.
Quick! To the Banmobile! |
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |