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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Okuu Reiuji
PEETOOSHKEE PRIMARY OK Scourge.
2
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Posted - 2017.04.02 20:26:04 -
[91] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Kendarr wrote:Yes, finally the ******* RLML nurf!
please buff HML application not damage and also buff the range of HAMs a tiny bit please The point of buffing the damage is to promote the use of, you know, actual dps application modifiers like tracking computers and target painters, instead of just making all ships a flat X% more effective.
For a ship with 400 dps it will be like +20. Wow, such a reason to throw away something necessary from low or mid for a damage application module. Nobody will even try.
Most players will just abandon missile ships beyond destroyer hull and stick to drones & turrets. I know I will do.
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njJAnWzKDfQ but once again CCP has decided to take a dump on caldari lol.. caracal will be entirely useless... what it gonna be like not even 200dps with reload?.
Shhhhhh, don't tell them that Ferox is still viable. |
elitatwo
Dicker Quick and Hyde Defense Attorneys O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1697
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Posted - 2017.04.02 20:44:04 -
[92] - Quote
Jackaryas wrote:I think we can all agree The orthrus is a bit OP right now..
This is complete bull and you know it.
The problem are the light rapid bajeebus launchers, not the ship.
Those rapid bajeebus IWIN launchers just need to go. The light missiles are a ******* frigate missile system. They need to stay where they belong - in the light launchers.
Those "prototype" launchers failed. Delete them and we can all go back to fighting with proper options. Oh and don't forget to un-nerf heavy missiles to the 2011 state.
Heavy missiles fixed and hams in dire need of love.
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
606
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Posted - 2017.04.02 21:26:18 -
[93] - Quote
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njJAnWzKDfQ
At the end of the day.. RLML are not op by any chance.. u can barely kill a properly tanked vexor in an orthrus
properly fit thoraxes can solo tank orthrus no problem. Hell an exequror rep fit can kill orthrus and tank its dps no problem.
What you have are legions of idiots in **** fits hitting approach and mwd right at you and they complain op when they die.
but once again CCP has decided to take a dump on caldari lol.. caracal will be entirely useless... what it gonna be like not even 200dps with reload?
You wanna fix op? Vexor, Algos, Tristan all top of their meta.. for years.. You try to compare long range orthus with the close range fit thorax. Got webbed - deserved to die. Close range is always more dps, for a good reason.
Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8
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DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
197
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Posted - 2017.04.02 21:31:37 -
[94] - Quote
In the current state of missiles damage application a frigate with an AB or a cruiser with an oversized ab or with AB bonus will laugh at an opponent using HML or HAMS. It's ridiculous when shooting other ship you can make damage of 80-100 HP per volley !
You can nerf the **** out of RLML but just keep in mind that people only use them because the state of the other missiles systems damage application it's awfull. I mean, really, really, bad.
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sten mattson
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
94
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Posted - 2017.04.02 22:57:20 -
[95] - Quote
Quote:This would mean that the following ships would have their range bonuses only apply to Heavy and Heavy Assault Missiles: Orthrus, Caracal, Cerberus, Onyx, Osprey Navy Issue, Cyclone, Drake, Drake Navy Issue
the sacrilege and gets spared?
IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
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Nightfox BloodRaven
SQUIDS.
46
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Posted - 2017.04.03 01:00:34 -
[96] - Quote
Korvin wrote:Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njJAnWzKDfQ
At the end of the day.. RLML are not op by any chance.. u can barely kill a properly tanked vexor in an orthrus
properly fit thoraxes can solo tank orthrus no problem. Hell an exequror rep fit can kill orthrus and tank its dps no problem.
What you have are legions of idiots in **** fits hitting approach and mwd right at you and they complain op when they die.
but once again CCP has decided to take a dump on caldari lol.. caracal will be entirely useless... what it gonna be like not even 200dps with reload?
You wanna fix op? Vexor, Algos, Tristan all top of their meta.. for years.. You try to compare long range orthus with the close range fit thorax. Got webbed - deserved to die. Close range is always more dps, for a good reason.
I am not trying to compare them .. the people who think RLML are broken are saying that RLML are so op they kill brawlers at brawl range.. which is completely untrue as to the video i posted and from my in game experiences.
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Valkin Mordirc
2757
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Posted - 2017.04.03 01:12:52 -
[97] - Quote
sten mattson wrote:Quote:This would mean that the following ships would have their range bonuses only apply to Heavy and Heavy Assault Missiles: Orthrus, Caracal, Cerberus, Onyx, Osprey Navy Issue, Cyclone, Drake, Drake Navy Issue the sacrilege and gets spared?
Sacrilege
Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile damage
4% bonus to all armor resistances
Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile max velocity
5% bonus to Rapid Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty
#DeleteTheWeak
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Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
606
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Posted - 2017.04.03 02:03:54 -
[98] - Quote
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:[quote=Korvin][quote=Nightfox BloodRaven] I am not trying to compare them .. the people who think RLML are broken are saying that RLML are so op they kill brawlers at brawl range.. which is completely untrue as to the video i posted and from my in game experiences.
He was close on that video.
Anyway, my main point is - the whole rebalance idea we were asking since csm4 was to make low tier ships useful for something, and get a proper role, so new players on a rifter or atron had a role in a serious pvp fleet and be wanted in corporations. RLMLs and t3 destroyers just ruined that idea like a hummer and the anvil. With those strange immune interceptors on top.
More than that, the whole point of RLMLs were the role of a secondary weapon on an extra slot, if you don't want to use it for the neut or salvager.
Giving the light missile bonuses on a cruiser size was a major mistake from the start.
Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
825
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Posted - 2017.04.03 03:06:10 -
[99] - Quote
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:Korvin wrote:Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njJAnWzKDfQ
At the end of the day.. RLML are not op by any chance.. u can barely kill a properly tanked vexor in an orthrus
properly fit thoraxes can solo tank orthrus no problem. Hell an exequror rep fit can kill orthrus and tank its dps no problem.
What you have are legions of idiots in **** fits hitting approach and mwd right at you and they complain op when they die.
but once again CCP has decided to take a dump on caldari lol.. caracal will be entirely useless... what it gonna be like not even 200dps with reload?
You wanna fix op? Vexor, Algos, Tristan all top of their meta.. for years.. You try to compare long range orthus with the close range fit thorax. Got webbed - deserved to die. Close range is always more dps, for a good reason. I am not trying to compare them .. the people who think RLML are broken are saying that RLML are so op they kill brawlers at brawl range.. which is completely untrue as to the video i posted and from my in game experiences.
I was curious, so i looked up the orthrus loss. I can't post the killboard link (against rules i believe). For one it was not a properly fit orthrus, it did not have max damage, nor did it have a proper tank. It was a terribly fit orthrus that died by being ontop of an AB thorax. Not exactly a normal situation for an RLML orthrus.
The orthrus that died in the video you listed was fit like this:
x5 t2 RLML (using faction inferno missiles, not T2 and also not ideal missile for an armor cruiser)
T2 MWD T2 Sensor booster Republic Fleet warp disruptor T2 Invuln XLASB
x2 BCU T2 OD injector T2 nanofiber
Rigs: x2 T2hyperspatials T2 Semiconductor memory cell (lol wat)
This is not the kind of fit we (or Suitonia) are talking about with RLML outbrawling other cruisers. A terrible fit does not mean RLML are fine. Anyone who is competent and knows how to fit a ship and use the right ammo will be far more dangerous than what is shown in that video.
With that in mind, even with how terribly fit that Orthrus is, he still almost managed to kill that thorax while brawling, perfectly illustrating our point.
If that orthrus had a DCU or 3rd BCU and a better midslot layout, along with either fury or explosive ammo (or both, ideally) he would of tanked and killed that thorax no problem.
EVE being EVE, there are always many variables in fights and no one is perfect, especially in videos. But using that one video as your proof that RLML are fine is pretty short sighted.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Make the Muninn great again!
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XJIE6YLLIEK 6OPOgUHCKUU
PEETOOSHKEE PRIMARY OK Scourge.
1
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Posted - 2017.04.03 03:14:30 -
[100] - Quote
I have a strong feeling nobody from CCP actually playing their own game. |
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
283
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Posted - 2017.04.03 03:49:59 -
[101] - Quote
RLMLs are fine. The problem is that only undersized missiles can actually hit a same-size target with full damage, and even the paper dps of heavies/HAMs isn't all that impressive. Nerfing RLMLs without fixing all the other missiles just means that missile ships in general take a major nerf and probably cease to be viable.
The actual solution here is to buff "normal" size missiles so they can hit same-size targets for full (or at least near-full) dps, with better dps than undersized missiles (which have fine paper dps as they are). That gives you the choice between maximum dps at the cost of projection against smaller targets, or awesome projection against smaller targets but weaker dps against anything in the same size class. |
oiukhp Muvila
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
146
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Posted - 2017.04.03 05:21:44 -
[102] - Quote
I think the whole damage calculus of this game needs to be re-thought.
I agree the biggest issue is how poorly cruiser class missiles are against cruiser sized ships. That should be their strong point regardless of the propulsion modules added to the targets.
As well, I think the ranges for all weapons and targeting systems should be increased something like 5 to 10 times. A frigate shouldn't be able to cross a cruiser's engagement range in less than 30 seconds in any circumstance.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3927
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Posted - 2017.04.03 08:29:41 -
[103] - Quote
oiukhp Muvila wrote:I think the whole damage calculus of this game needs to be re-thought.
I agree the biggest issue is how poorly cruiser class missiles are against cruiser sized ships. That should be their strong point regardless of the propulsion modules added to the targets.
As well, I think the ranges for all weapons and targeting systems should be increased something like 5 to 10 times. A frigate shouldn't be able to cross a cruiser's engagement range in less than 30 seconds in any circumstance.
Oversized AB's are meant to be a counter to Missiles, AB's in general are. While MWD are meant to be weak to them. So prop mods should have a decent impact, but currently an unfitted cruiser, some of them are down to 60% of paper damage from Heavy Missiles, fix at least that issue to 100, and prop mods are no longer as insanely good at negating the damage, because they start from 100, not 60%. |
Isengrimus
Call of the Wild The Minions.
35
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Posted - 2017.04.03 10:55:20 -
[104] - Quote
So this was NOT April's Fools after all? Well, that's even less funny. |
elitatwo
Dicker Quick and Hyde Defense Attorneys O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1702
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Posted - 2017.04.03 12:12:49 -
[105] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:RLMLs are fine. ...
No, they are not. And ships like a Caracal don't even have enough fitting room to fit heavy launchers in the first place.
Light missiles are fine, rapid IWIN launchers are not.
Why do you think, I made a thread about rapid artillery turrets??
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
285
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Posted - 2017.04.03 12:53:13 -
[106] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: And ships like a Caracal don't even have enough fitting room to fit heavy launchers in the first place.
Then this needs to be fixed. If you just nerf RLML then congratulations, you have a Caracal that can't work effectively with RLML, can't fit anything else, and can't apply useful damage even if it could fit HML/HAM. IOW, you might as well delete the Caracal from the game. |
Isengrimus
Call of the Wild The Minions.
35
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Posted - 2017.04.03 13:19:28 -
[107] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:elitatwo wrote: And ships like a Caracal don't even have enough fitting room to fit heavy launchers in the first place. Then this needs to be fixed. If you just nerf RLML then congratulations, you have a Caracal that can't work effectively with RLML, can't fit anything else, and can't apply useful damage even if it could fit HML/HAM. IOW, you might as well delete the Caracal from the game.
Just like basically all Mordu's ships, because Garmur is not worthy keeping a whole line of cool-looking useless line. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3285
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Posted - 2017.04.03 13:20:24 -
[108] - Quote
To fix RLML, you need to fix the other medium missiles and make RLML a real trade off to fit. Having a dedicated anti-support missile syytem isn't the end of the world but it has to be an effective limitation. Right now, the ships that use them pretty much work better against EVERYTHING with RLML instead of HMs and HAMs. |
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
556
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Posted - 2017.04.03 14:35:25 -
[109] - Quote
Giving more damage to heavy missiles seems like a good idea, considering some of my favourite ships are basically on death row because it's not possible to get sensible DPS with heavy missiles. Seriously, there are frigates who have higher DPS than a Cyclone with HMLs. That's not right. |
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
534
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Posted - 2017.04.03 15:21:25 -
[110] - Quote
Let's take a trip back in time.
I started playing in 2012, when the Drake was still an amazing ship. I trained into missiles based on feedback everyone gave me, that it was good for PVE and PVP. Pretty soon afterwards:
Winter 2012
- Heavy Missile Damage reduced by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
- Heavy Missile Explosion Radius increased by 12%
Summer 2015
- Heavy Missile Damage increased by 5%
So now we're looking at increasing HML damage again, by 5.6%. That puts damage levels basically back to the same as they were in 2012, possibly increased by a whole 0.6%. But with the previous nerfs to damage applications, it's almost pointless.
The Missile Explosion Radius has never been adjusted to my knowledge. We have Missile Guidance Computers/Enhancers now, which we didn't back then, but HML damage application has been suffering since the nerf in 2012, hence why it's such an underperforming weapon system.
CCP Fozzie: Please consider increasing the damage application, and undoing some of the Explosion Radius nerf from 2012. |
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DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
198
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Posted - 2017.04.03 15:31:35 -
[111] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:Giving more damage to heavy missiles seems like a good idea, considering some of my favourite ships are basically on death row because it's not possible to get sensible DPS with heavy missiles. Seriously, there are frigates who have higher DPS than a Cyclone with HMLs. That's not right.
Lack of damage and even worst: the lack of application. HAMS and HML have really crap damage application. I used to fit HAMS or HML in my caldari fits but was pretty much "obliged" to fit RLML due to the explosion radius and velocity nerfs these 2 systems suffered.
If they go ahead with this nerf and dont change the application status of HML's and HAMS, a lot of the Caldari BC/Cruiser Hulls will be useless. |
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2017.04.03 16:09:49 -
[112] - Quote
Fozzie, while your intentions are good, you may want to consider some of the ideas put forward.
1. RLML are the defining choice because HML and HAM launchers are extremely poor at applying damage below battlecruiser sized targets. Improve application for these, and then it becomes a question of players balancing benefits against RLML rather than "always RLML"
2. Increasing reload time simply makes RLML more unpleasant to use, where reducing both clip size and REDUCING reload time by 5 seconds would make them far more useable WHILST making them less oppressive.
3. Decreasing range makes RLML less effective against fast moving targets, the real purpose of the weapon system, it simply means fly another ship if you want to fight frigates and interceptors.
I hope you will take these ideas and comments in board, you have far more experience and knowledge of future developments than most of us, but we do have in game experience, and from that perspective this solution is not addressing our issues. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
3053
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Posted - 2017.04.04 00:06:06 -
[113] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:No, they are not. And ships like a Caracal don't even have enough fitting room to fit heavy launchers in the first place. Max skills it fits 5x T2 HAM launcher, T2 MWD, and T2 LSE, needing only 1% powergrid bonus to make it fit. With Powergrid Upgrades 3 and without Advanced Weapon Upgrades (same as a starter toon), it fits T1 versions of those mods (not compact) using 700 out of 724.5 MW powergrid. Still got room to fit everything else.
You don't have to fit a 1600mm armor plate to your Caracal.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
440
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Posted - 2017.04.04 09:06:26 -
[114] - Quote
While you're at it, could you take a look at precision light missiles? In my opinion they lack velocity already, and now that they lose bonuses from many hulls, it puts them into an even weaker place. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
740
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Posted - 2017.04.04 10:00:41 -
[115] - Quote
Fozzie, do a balance pass to all missiles systems instead. Range Application Hull bonuses Straight buffing damage won't solve anything here.
This community always pick the best options and the best now are rapids missiles lanuchers for both undersized and same size hulls. Maybe instead of introducing burst damage launchers give hulls bonuses to undersized weapons?
"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
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Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static Sleeping Dragons
26
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Posted - 2017.04.04 10:02:45 -
[116] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:Let's take a trip back in time. I started playing in 2012, when the Drake was still an amazing ship. I trained into missiles based on feedback everyone gave me, that it was good for PVE and PVP. Pretty soon afterwards: Winter 2012
- Heavy Missile Damage reduced by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
- Heavy Missile Explosion Radius increased by 12%
Summer 2015
- Heavy Missile Damage increased by 5%
So now we're looking at increasing HML damage again, by 5.6%. That puts damage levels basically back to the same as they were in 2012, possibly increased by a whole 0.6%. But with the previous nerfs to damage applications, it's almost pointless.
No missile damage is still lower than it was back then (albeit not by much) 0.9*1.05*1.056=0.99792 so still ~0.2% lower dps |
Stridsflygplan
Yjellio The Volition Cult
90
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Posted - 2017.04.04 10:38:15 -
[117] - Quote
Will the range nerf also affect the role bonus on the Drake and Drake Navy Issue? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2864
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Posted - 2017.04.04 11:03:16 -
[118] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:RLMLs are fine. The problem is that only undersized missiles can actually hit a same-size target with full damage, and even the paper dps of heavies/HAMs isn't all that impressive. Nerfing RLMLs without fixing all the other missiles just means that missile ships in general take a major nerf and probably cease to be viable.
The actual solution here is to buff "normal" size missiles so they can hit same-size targets for full (or at least near-full) dps, with better dps than undersized missiles (which have fine paper dps as they are). That gives you the choice between maximum dps at the cost of projection against smaller targets, or awesome projection against smaller targets but weaker dps against anything in the same size class.
I agree with this assessment.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2865
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Posted - 2017.04.04 11:14:03 -
[119] - Quote
Alderson Point wrote:Fozzie, while your intentions are good, you may want to consider some of the ideas put forward.
1. RLML are the defining choice because HML and HAM launchers are extremely poor at applying damage below battlecruiser sized targets. Improve application for these, and then it becomes a question of players balancing benefits against RLML rather than "always RLML"
2. Increasing reload time simply makes RLML more unpleasant to use, where reducing both clip size and REDUCING reload time by 5 seconds would make them far more useable WHILST making them less oppressive.
3. Decreasing range makes RLML less effective against fast moving targets, the real purpose of the weapon system, it simply means fly another ship if you want to fight frigates and interceptors.
I hope you will take these ideas and comments in board, you have far more experience and knowledge of future developments than most of us, but we do have in game experience, and from that perspective this solution is not addressing our issues.
These are also good points.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Planet 6
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
18
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Posted - 2017.04.04 15:35:51 -
[120] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_oiSQehU_M
im only good for memes anyway, ill just leave this here |
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