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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:34:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Patch86 OK, picture the situation:
ok!
Quote: Person A is an honest player.
like us!
Quote: Person B is a macro-user.
boo! hiss!
Quote: Person C is a hacker.
like Neo!
Quote: Now I ask you- aside from the fact that it took Person B a few weeks to achieve what Person C did in 10 minutes, in what way does it differ? In what way is it any less cheating?
not in the slightest, i'm not disputing that it's cheating. But what does he then do with his ill-gotten gains? sell it on the internet probably, so he's gained nothing in-game for it and quickly moves on to a different account.
The isk seller then flogs the cash to some chump willing to risk his account for isk, and too lazy to buy GTCs. The isk seller has no in-game presence beyond accounts for shuffling cash.
The chump who bought the isk now has loads of money, aside from the fact that it took him a few hours to achieve what could have been achived in a few days if he'd bought and sold bought GTCs.
in what way does it differ? In what way is it any less cheating?
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Grash Freedom
Gallente MAZA Solutions
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:37:00 -
[62]
Macros are bad
You can make macros for all activities in eve, mining/production/rat hunting/ even for pvp so whats the point of you playing a game? its not you if the pc does all the work
Macros are used by isk sellers, not by players isk sellers make their living and feed their cubs(its a game, not an industry)
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:40:00 -
[63]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 25/04/2007 12:37:49 In my opinion, the economy and industry of EVE is also a vital part of it. Especially when you start talking about alliance/0.0 warfare.
I think it's good that you can build a strong industrial powerbase, and use that to make a difference to your pilot numbers/skills. E.g. acquire good T2 production, have your ships better fitted/supplied.
And similarly, if I know someone has this capability, I can attack it. Raid their systems, camp their complexes, mine their ore, blockade their supply lines. That's all good IMO.
What's bad ,is if in situation B, the group in question is able to support operations via 'out of game' methods. If I can go and 'just buy' a mothership or titan, without the associated logistics and supply, then I've made a strategic impact on the game, with my credit card. That to me, is all wrong.
The secondary effect of macros being inflation and skewed prices (if you buy your isks, you can afford to spend stupid amounts on fittings) is also relevant, because it means when I want a new falcon, I have to spend more to get it. That's also annoying.
Macros and farming are symptoms of the disease that is isk sales. I have no objection to intensive mining ops or whatever, I do have an objection to someone cheating (farming isn't, macros are), when such cheating is having an active impact on my game experience.
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mr bighelmet
EnTech Pax Familia
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:44:00 -
[64]
The fact that i have to fight over belt with player who strip mine it using macro make my eve expriance less fun. You know it and everyone else in this post know it, the fact that you keep arguing aginst this make me wander if you really want an answer to your question.
If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest |
ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:45:00 -
[65]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:46:48
Originally by: Lynae It works like RL. When the big supermarket over there has opening hours from 7 AM to 2 AM, the small store next door (open from 7 AM to 7 PM) cannot keep up. The difference is, there are still workers in both stores, even more shifts in the big supermarket, so it is fair. Imagine a macro miner as a 24h store, just with 1 robot as the only personnel. Does not sleep, needs no food, water or air. Always there for your customers. How should someone compete with that?
i wonder how much is an actual loss, and how much is simply a reduced profit margin.
what about new players trying to compete with large mining alliances, or noob-corp dwelling miner alts? surely they will struggle to match the prices offered by an alliance using a capship fleet to mine, unless the capship miners are making no effort to compete on price and are - dare i say it - selling minerals at whatever inflated price the market will withstand, rather than competing with their fellow miners. Oligopoly be damned, that's price fixing isn't it?
and yes! i realise that every counterpoint i've raised has been in the form of a question, but i'm rather objective in all this (being neither a miner, nor an isk dealer)which is why i find it so fascinating.
EDIT: and we're talking about freelance empire miners here, right? surely alliance miners and 0.0 miners are pumping their proceeds back into corp rather than selling them on the open market, and are able to protect their mining grounds.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.04.25 13:13:00 -
[66]
Originally by: ry ry Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
For me it is because someone is sucking up in game resources, to sell for a RL profit, for a game I am paying for - hence they are stealing from me, and you, and ccp, and the noob, and the vet.
-AS |
Aritcio
Amarr Dark Skyes
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Posted - 2007.04.25 13:20:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Aritcio on 25/04/2007 13:17:45 Macro are bad because when we like to mine. There northing there because they go from one system to another 23 hours day getting the best ore they can get in empire. So i left with Veld and scord. I like it have kernite now and then some day.
Also i seen loads of macro mission in Taru all simlair names 5 ravens and a APOC.
SO because they mine 23 hours of the day its making a real miner hard to earn isk and also making a effect on market.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.25 13:36:00 -
[68]
Because CCP allows itself to profit off the sale of ISK via Game Time Codes I personally do not have a problem with macro users. Then again, I am in 0.0 space and spend absolutely no time in empire so they don't affect me in anyway.
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.25 13:55:00 -
[69]
Originally by: ry ry a macro is just a series of instructions, not some kind of omnipotent AI.
Go to eBay, search for eve and read some of the descriptions for the stuff on sale (no not character sales). I would say some of that stuff is VERY sophisticated if it indeed do what it say it does.
Good luck to CCP to find efficient counter measurements for those applications, I hope you somehow manage to catch them.
We're sorry, something happened.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 17:49:00 -
[70]
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17
Quote: I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games.
Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough?
While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now.
Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation.
but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds.
are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned?
No, these play the game and have every right to grind 24/7 if thats how they would like to live their life. However like anyone else they are not allowed to use any macro at all.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 17:56:00 -
[71]
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:14:35
so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating?
how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me.
edit: removed the quote. originally a response to one post, but since it seems to be general opinion, i made it more of an open question.
By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for these macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees.
The difference between a macroer and a dedicated miner is that the miner gotta be there to empty his hold, while the macro is a computer program doing it.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 17:59:00 -
[72]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Ebusitanus [...Ebusitanus is irritated...] It [also] irritates that someone dumps the rules and the "pain" that would come through legit mining and has a program do all that for him while he is in the livingroom watching TV. Why is this hard to understand?
whenever i need cash i sit and run missions or rat whilst either watching TV or playing Nintendo DS. It hardly requires much attention, and i'd imagine mining even less so.
You really need to listen to what people are saying to you... Macro miners are a PROGRAM WHICH MEANS NOT A PLAYER! If you play the game while watching television, who is pressing the buttons? YOU! If a program does it while the macro runner watches TV, he will be F****** his girlfriend or something like it which makes him unable to press any buttons at all..
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Coran Ordus
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.04.25 18:37:00 -
[73]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grunanca Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
Wrong, GTCs:
Are a transfer of isk, not a creation Allow more people to play the game (a good thing) Directly controllable and monitorable by CCP in any case, and as such can be easily checked should they start causing problems
Macrominers ruin economies. In the only game out there with a non-lobotomized economy, this ****es a lot of people off. Simple as that.
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PuncherDavis
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Posted - 2007.04.25 19:02:00 -
[74]
Umm this thing aint been locked or transfered to the main macro mining thread...which is that way>>>>>>>>
kind of surprised
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.26 11:57:00 -
[75]
Edited by: ry ry on 26/04/2007 11:57:24
Originally by: Grunanca You really need to listen to what people are saying to you... Macro miners are a PROGRAM WHICH MEANS NOT A PLAYER! If you play the game while watching television, who is pressing the buttons? YOU! If a program does it while the macro runner watches TV, he will be F****** his girlfriend or something like it which makes him unable to press any buttons at all..
i understand what a macro is, thx.
what i don't see why somebody automating tedious tasks fills you with CAPSLOCK RAGE. What if i phone the GF from work and get her to log in and change my skills for me - is that cheating? is that account sharing? would you feel the need to hurl abuse at my gf for being a filthy macro-er?
I understand why CCP want macros out the game, and i understand why players wouldn't use them, but for a Joe Average like you why are they such an irritation?
And for the love of god, don't just reply "BECASUE THEY ARE CHEATINGWITH A PROGRAM!!! THEY NOT EVEN DOING THE BUTTON PUSH!!" i was looking for the reasoning behind your blind hatred, not a description of what constitutes a macro.
Do they cheapen your own endeavours? Does the ease with which they gain money make you jealous? perhaps you just don't like the idea of making IRL profits from a computer game? are you concerned that they're crippling CCP financially?
there must be something more than simply them being able to watch TV as they mine?
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.26 11:58:00 -
[76]
Edited by: ry ry on 26/04/2007 11:54:33
Originally by: PuncherDavis Umm this thing aint been locked or transfered to the main macro mining thread...which is that way>>>>>>>>
kind of surprised
because it's not a generic OMG BAN MACROES CCP thread, and until you posted that pretty much every comment so far had been constructive in some way.
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:25:00 -
[77]
ISK sellers, I hate. Farmers, are annoying (but legal). Macro's, I have absolutely no problem with.
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Hellspawn01
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:32:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: ry ry Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
For me it is because someone is sucking up in game resources, to sell for a RL profit, for a game I am paying for - hence they are stealing from me, and you, and ccp, and the noob, and the vet.
*hands this man a beer*
Best explaination so far.
Ship lovers click here |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:33:00 -
[79]
Originally by: ry ry
What if i phone the GF from work and get her to log in and change my skills for me - is that cheating?
Actually yes, technically, it is
But anyhow, you know my opinion from my first post. Using a program to amass wealth while you're not around is no different when its a "mining macro" than it is when its a "OMGH4XB0T". I'm sure it doesn't need explaining why people would be angry if someone is "winning" by hacking. "Winning" by macroing is exactly the same, and evokes the same reaction.
Case and point, look at the rage that ensued from the events of The Weekend that shall not be named. That was the same as the macro rage, only more acute and directed. --------
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:36:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Elgar Lightfoot on 26/04/2007 12:33:19
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: ry ry Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
For me it is because someone is sucking up in game resources, to sell for a RL profit, for a game I am paying for - hence they are stealing from me, and you, and ccp, and the noob, and the vet.
*hands this man a beer*
Best explaination so far.
Totally wrong. She asked what your problem was with macro's, not with real life trades. Macro's <> RL sales.
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Ebusitanus
Mythical Warriors and Workers
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:45:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot ISK sellers, I hate. Farmers, are annoying (but legal). Macro's, I have absolutely no problem with.
Since the first time I logged in a month ago on this forum I was wondering why I saw you always actively trying to sabotage any attempt/idea by the playerbase to come to a solution for this pest. Finally I see you writing it clearly. Thanks for that.
------------------------------------------------ "Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"
Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage. |
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:48:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Elgar Lightfoot on 26/04/2007 12:47:52
Originally by: Ebusitanus
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot ISK sellers, I hate. Farmers, are annoying (but legal). Macro's, I have absolutely no problem with.
Since the first time I logged in a month ago on this forum I was wondering why I saw you always actively trying to sabotage any attempt/idea by the playerbase to come to a solution for this pest. Finally I see you writing it clearly. Thanks for that.
You're welcome. You only needed to ask . I never try to sabotage any idea, but I will not stand by and see something attacked when it's not even the real focus. Players shout about RL trading and then instantly macro's get thrown into the mix. I'm anti RL trading, but I'm not anti macro. The two are not one and the same.
I have yet to see anyone give a really valid reason as to why they hate macro's, other than the competion over resources. Even then more often then not they are crying about their competition with Farmers, not macroers. I have played Many MMO's over many years and I have never even once had a macro cause me any problems in a game. Farmers and other players cause plenty, but never any macro.
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Ebusitanus
Mythical Warriors and Workers
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:50:00 -
[83]
So...your solution should be for everyone to get a macro program then?
Are macros allowed in game or not? ------------------------------------------------ "Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"
Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage. |
Chequrself
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.26 13:00:00 -
[84]
H8 H8 Macro isk farmers <3<3 Macro isk miners
Why the double standard simple farmers rob me, miners help me.
"ZOMFG How can this be?" You ask.
Simple I am not a miner ergo I like mineral prices cheap. I am a 0.0 ratter when I need to, but bah were are the faction/officer spawn I always hear about. GAHHH macro ratter been and gone with them.
In all fairness to the macroers tho, without them you would not be buying isk of ebay you would all be buying GTCs and selling them in game for isk .... OH now I see why CCP hates them so.
Just remember, while there are people to be exploited, there will be people to exploit them. Who's Who in this scenario weelllll, I will leave that to you. -------------------------------------------------
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Agent Li
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Posted - 2007.04.26 15:41:00 -
[85]
Originally by: ry ry Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
Because they skew the game mechanics.
If you're going to allow people to strip mine the belts, then make them do it without a macro. Make them sit there through all of the boring mining operations.
I even think that autopilot should be nerfed, just so people can't go afk.
The game was meant for people who play, not for people who use it to sell isk. ------------------
"Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all." |
Asmosis
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Posted - 2007.04.26 15:52:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot There you go again...
Quote: If you buy isk from farmers (ie: macroers)
SO WRONG. Macroing does NOT = Farmers or ISK sellers. Attempting to use any ISK selling annalogy when refering to macroers just shows how little your arguemnts will hold water when scruitinized.
Macroing, Farming and ISK selling are ALL totally seperate issues.
Thats like saying pirating has nothing to do with PvP.... Yarrr rrright
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.04.26 15:59:00 -
[87]
I just don't understand why people raise their voices and shout "macros are bad because they sell ISK!". We all know you can buy a few GTCs and sell them. Totally legal. So please get a new argument. |
Lithalnas
Amarr Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.04.26 16:03:00 -
[88]
The reason being is that when mission farmers, who effectively print isk, take that isk and sell it tey are effectively adding it to the economy. Let us say for the moment that the farmer has 3 chars, he runs missions all day making 500m isk(23/7). That means that when he sells that 1b isk to a character for RL $ he is injecting the difference. Now say the character who bought it makes 20-50m a day. That means 450m has just been added to the economy. Figure the farmer makes a sale a day that means 450m per day is added to the economy.
Now multiply that x10 macro companies that 4.5b isk per day being injected into the economy.
A word on macro miners, no they do not print isk, however they do strip high sec of all their belts, and i mean all of them. This week we saw the belts not respawn when they were supposed to, HDY could not find an asteroid within 3 jumps of HQ.
Macros also make it very hard to make money mining in high sec, 5 covetors will mine a whole lot more than a hulk and his alt, saying this, the amount of ore they bring into the system forces the prices of minerals to fall. This is both a good and bad thing, low prices mean cheaper battleships, however low prices also mean low profits for all the industrial characters out there, meaning the miners get paid a pittance and the manufacturers have to make due with thinner margins.
In closing go out there and shoot up some macros, the Chinese hate mail can be the best you will ever read. ------------- Hadean Drive Yards The EvE inflation, 80 Macro miners, 1.5b isk/day |
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 16:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Asmosis
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot There you go again...
Quote: If you buy isk from farmers (ie: macroers)
SO WRONG. Macroing does NOT = Farmers or ISK sellers. Attempting to use any ISK selling annalogy when refering to macroers just shows how little your arguemnts will hold water when scruitinized.
Macroing, Farming and ISK selling are ALL totally seperate issues.
Thats like saying pirating has nothing to do with PvP.... Yarrr rrright
No, Pirating is an action you perform. Macro's are a tool which can be used for good or bad. People here are complaining about ISK sellers which again is totally independant of macro's, Mission running, belt stripping or any other method of ISK collection you can think of. The ISK gathering isn't the problem or what should be the focus. The SELLING is. It's not the collection (however they do it) that causes the problems, it's the selling for RL cash that is. If no one purchased that ISK then no one would be selling it. If no one was selling it then you'd not have belts stripped or complexes camped by teams of farmers 23/7. You see it's not how the ISK is gained, it's whats done with it after that's the problem. It is nothing to do with macroing, farming, pirating or picking your nose.
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Lowanaera
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.04.26 16:43:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
No, Pirating is an action you perform. Macro's are a tool which can be used for good or bad. People here are complaining about ISK sellers which again is totally independant of macro's, Mission running, belt stripping or any other method of ISK collection you can think of. The ISK gathering isn't the problem or what should be the focus. The SELLING is. It's not the collection (however they do it) that causes the problems, it's the selling for RL cash that is. If no one purchased that ISK then no one would be selling it. If no one was selling it then you'd not have belts stripped or complexes camped by teams of farmers 23/7. You see it's not how the ISK is gained, it's whats done with it after that's the problem. It is nothing to do with macroing, farming, pirating or picking your nose.
No, how it is gained is exactly what matters. Macro miners do not hurt anyone except other miners in the area by creating market competition, their impact on inflation is zero because mining does not create ISK, it merely redistributes it. Selling ISK, whether through GTCs or illegitimate sites, does not create ISK, it merely redistributes it. Camping complexes and selling deadspace modules does not create ISK, it merely redistributes it.
ISK comes into the economy and worsens inflation primarily through killing rats, insurance and other things create ISK as well but bounties and mission rewards are the biggest cause. The people sitting in Motsu all day in Gistii CNRs are the ones responsible for inflation, not macro miners. Are they annoying because they lack respect for other players and "cheapen" the experience for people who work for their ISK? Yes, but they are not to blame for the economy, and all the people crying "inflation" need to gain a basic understanding of how a MMO economy works first.
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