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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:17:00 -
[1]
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
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Kirianshalee
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:19:00 -
[2]
A macrominer is not a person but a computer program hense the word macro
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:20:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kirianshalee A macrominer is not a person but a computer program hense the word macro
nah, they need somebody sat there watching them.
a macro is just a series of instructions, not some kind of omnipotent AI.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:23:00 -
[4]
Originally by: ry ry Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:24:00 -
[5]
'macro' is a someone playing EVE on a script. Be it 'macro mining' or 'macro missioning' or whatever.
I don't think it's fair to gain in EVE in that fashion.
The other place of 'issue' is the percieved correlation between 'farmers' and 'isk sellers'. I'm not so clear on how/where that happens, but it's 'generally held' that there's communities who make a living from EVE, by running multiple accounts, grinding the isks, and selling the isks.
I don't mind the 'farming' per-se, although I'll admit it does get irritating to see the same people prevending you from doing whatever (be it complex, mining, or ... well whatever really). However I do object to isk selling. Similar problem to the macro-mining - I shouldn't be able to use my credit card and salary to gain a significant advantage in EVE. Which is why it's against the rules, and quite rightly IMO. However I still see frequent 'buy my isks' adverts in faction channels, and even get spams within EVE. My f12 key is in danger of wearing out ...
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:26:00 -
[6]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:23:01
Quote: There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money.
yay! the first accusation of buying money off ebay. still waiting for the first accusation of being a macro miner. and Chinese.
I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
i've also heard the arguments CCP put forwards, but they sound - without trying to be a***** about it - like CCP's problem rather than mine. Macro miners don't impact my Eve experience as far as i can tell, so i wondered why people get so angry about it.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: James Lyrus The other place of 'issue' is the percieved correlation between 'farmers' and 'isk sellers'. I'm not so clear on how/where that happens, but it's 'generally held' that there's communities who make a living from EVE, by running multiple accounts, grinding the isks, and selling the isks.
but isk sold re-enters eve's economy, so it's not exactly causing inflation.
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Ebusitanus
Caldari Mythical Warriors and Workers
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:30:00 -
[8]
The trolling is strong in this thread.
------------------------------------------------ "Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"
Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage. |
Jessica Lorelei
Minmatar Decimus Corp FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:32:00 -
[9]
macro miners IF they are isk sellers have a wider impact on the game, that is why they are hated so much.
basically, it wont impact your personal game that much, but on the grander interlinking scheme of things it affects the whole game for the reasons already stated.
oh and that guy wasnt accusing you of buying isk LOL -NEVER CONFUSE OPINNION WITH FACT-
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: ry ry I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
You answered your own question. The ISK that is sold is obtained EXCLUSIVELY from macro mining. "defeats the point of the game" is exactly why it's bad. ---
I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment. |
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:36:00 -
[11]
Well, they don't irk my chain too much.
ever even seen a macro/bot/japanese letters for names flying a "obviously" bought titan thingy.
Though...most of the problems posted on these forums evade my sight as well. Like the amarr problem, or the drone problem...or the belt problems...or the DT...extended DT..whatnot..
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:23:01
Quote: There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money.
yay! the first accusation of buying money off ebay. still waiting for the first accusation of being a macro miner. and Chinese.
I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
i've also heard the arguments CCP put forwards, but they sound - without trying to be a***** about it - like CCP's problem rather than mine. Macro miners don't impact my Eve experience as far as i can tell, so i wondered why people get so angry about it.
May I ask where I accuse you of anything? I answered your question and you ask it again in the post. I suggest you try read it again as it contains the answer of your question but no accusations however...
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: ry ry I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
You answered your own question. The ISK that is sold is obtained EXCLUSIVELY from macro mining. "defeats the point of the game" is exactly why it's bad.
so macro mining is bad because it lets some people ruin the game experience for themselves? B the same merit you could argue that spending your entire life mission running in empire, or sat in a station margin trading defeats the point of the game too.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Grunanca May I ask where I accuse you of anything? I answered your question and you ask it again in the post. I suggest you try read it again as it contains the answer of your question but no accusations however...
yeah, i misread it. sorry.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:43:00 -
[15]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:41:20 Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:39:38
Originally by: Jessica Lorelei basically, it wont impact your personal game that much, but on the grander interlinking scheme of things it affects the whole game for the reasons already stated.
but to what extent does it effect me*?
every time i drink a glass of water, some tiny part of it passed through (EDIT: a well known German dictator) some point. Doesn't mean i'm chugging down a steaming mug of his urine.
the macro hate just seems a little bit.. hazy. its a sort of unfocsed rage that loosely involves a hatred of anybody who might not be 'western' and does a lot of mining/plexes. I just don't get it.
*or you, obviously.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: ry ry I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
You answered your own question. The ISK that is sold is obtained EXCLUSIVELY from macro mining. "defeats the point of the game" is exactly why it's bad.
so macro mining is bad because it lets some people ruin the game experience for themselves? B the same merit you could argue that spending your entire life mission running in empire, or sat in a station margin trading defeats the point of the game too.
Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:45:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Andrue on 25/04/2007 10:43:21 Note:This is my personal view assuming complete freedom of choice. When playing Eve I accept to being limited by the EULA at all times
In general terms I take the view that as long as the macro is only providing automation of simple repetitive tasks, requires regular and frequent operator monitoring/assistance and functions by normal interaction with the client (ie;doesn't rely on hacks or generating its own packets) it is okay.
This is why I see nothing wrong in using tools such as the Logitech G15 keyboard to fire multiple keystrokes into the Eve client. All they do is save the player from RSI and wear and tear on the keyboard.
I would also have no problem using the Windows Macro Recorder to send mouse commands although from experience with other games it probably wouldn't work.
Where I would draw the line is when the macro includes code to detect and respond to game state or when it relies on hacking or packet detection/generation.
The problem for game developers like CCP is that the point at which a simple UI event generator turns into an intelligent game playing tool can be blurred and it is safer and simpler to just say "no" to all macros. I can understand and fully respect that position
And why? Because as soon as a macro can 'play' a game it becomes easy to automate the acquisition of in-game items and that fuels inflation and out-of-game item sales. It can seriously disrupt the balance of an MMORPG and can be a factor in the creation of 'sweat shops'. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grunanca May I ask where I accuse you of anything? I answered your question and you ask it again in the post. I suggest you try read it again as it contains the answer of your question but no accusations however...
yeah, i misread it. sorry.
np:)
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grunanca Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
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Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:50:00 -
[20]
I think the trillions of isk allowed to enter and remain in the game via bugged complexes is more of an influence on the Eve economy than macro-miners will be in the next couple of years. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
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brakespear
Minmatar Wayward Brewing
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:50:00 -
[21]
Edited by: brakespear on 25/04/2007 10:47:55 Depends on your point of view......if you don't find it annoying that an ingame character's buying power can depend on the size and disposability of their RL income then i guess you wouldn't find people selling ISK annoying....personally it annoys me no end edit - and yes i agree with the two posts above which appeared whilst i was typing :) -------------------------------------------------- brakespear - the lowest common denominator |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grunanca Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
I agree. I personally have misgivings about the whole GTC to Isk thing. It cheapens the value of Isk (I worked for my money over three years and I'm proud of being a billionaire even if I'm not the richest guy in the game). The only saving grace is that it helps fund the game and might in some cases mean that a player who would have quit because they can't handle their in-game finances might continue to play.
I still think it's a ****ty thing to do though -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Malibu Stacey
Gallente Playboy Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:53:00 -
[23]
The problem isn't the macro miners. It's the losers who buy ISK from them.
Simple solution to macro miners & other operations who generate ISK to sell for real money: remove their market. Setup a GM division to hunt out the scum who buy ISK & start temporarily banning them & removing the bought ISK from their accounts. Problem solves itself from that point.
CCP have tried to address this with allowing people to trade ISK for GTC's but it's only a small step. There are still too many sites out there selling ISK. Take a look round most "community" sites & you'll find banner ads for ISK sellers where you can buy one billion ISK for less than I would spend on an average Saturday night out. That's just plain wrong. --- Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! |
Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grunanca Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
Indeed! And im totally against selling GTCs. However (not saying that it aint bad), its not as bad as the farmers. A farmer is generating isk, especially the mission and complex runner ones, a player buying a GTC will just move money from one point to another. More isk into the game is worse than the same amount of ISK moved to another wallet. But then again, it should not be allowed.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:59:00 -
[25]
Found the link: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=437
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Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Minmatar Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: ry ry Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
Macro's by themselves are not the problem, we use them in excel for example ;-) . It becomes a problem when people abuse these automated scripts/applications to gain an unfair advantage over otehr players in Eve.
I point you to the Devblog: The price of ISK
Bottom line is, you should not use any program or script to advance yourself over others in Eve. The use of these programs by malicious people and the problems that causes are described in the Blog.
Ssoraszh
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Aioa
Planetary Assault Systems
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Malibu Stacey The problem isn't the macro miners. It's the losers who buy ISK from them.
Damn right....I mean, what sort of bed-wetting virgin do you need to be to buy ISK for RL cash? Yet, judging by the amount of farmers/ISK-sales websites about, it must be a very common thing indeed. I fail to even comprehend it :S
In answer to the OP's question: because people like a good witchhunt ;-)
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:11:00 -
[28]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:08:33
read the devblog, and this is what i got from it:
Quote:
1. Macro mining
irritating
2. Spamming
irritating
3. Account hacking
kinda.. maybe.. you know.. your own fault?
4. Evil conglomerates are formed and prices go up!
proper bad. but how common? and the changes in the t2 lottery & invention etc. mean this will be less effective. besides, people are CONSTANTLY creating trade cartels without selling any of the proceeds.
5. Customer support suffers ( = you suffer)
couldn't possibly comment. certainly it takes up time, but probably less time than investigating incorrect OMFG <random user> IS DONIG THE MACREOS!!! petitions and people trying to get back stuff that got legitimately scammed off them.
i'm not pro-isk seller, or pro-macro miner, or particularly pro-anything. i'm just a little bit anti-hysteria.
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000Hunter000
Gallente Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:12:00 -
[29]
Sadly ccp has their own cheat to 'win eve'
So ur rich in RL? kewl, go buy a few dozen gtc's, sell them for iskies.. presto u 'won eve'.
to be entirely fair, i did consider doing just that a few weeks ago, but then i realized that wouldn't make me much better then the peeps who buy isk for rl money, only the rl money goes to ccp instead of some cyber maffia type.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:12:00 -
[30]
cause they are bad mmmkay
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