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eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.12 13:50:00 -
[1]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/04/2007 13:48:59 Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/04/2007 13:47:28 CCP I believe you have tied your GM's hands on this one.
Fair enough you can't always tell an intentional logoff from a genuine disconnection..... on very rare occasion.
What about when someone logs off, then logs on a different char 2 seconds later? while their original char was being shot at - precisely at the time they logged off??
There is no doubt, there is no uncertainty, there is no excuse CCP.
I will anonymously quote a GM recently, please remove this excerpt if it is against rules: "I perfectly understand how frustrating your situation is as I am playing the game and agree that such a tactic is indeed shameful, but I remain unable to take any action as we canŠt make any distinction between normal log outs and connection drops."
Now I believe the GM knows exactly what is going on, but that it is CCP policy tying his hands in this matter.
CCP please untie their hands and stop this madness.
IMMEDIATE ACTION TO RESOLVE EXPLOIT: Allow GM's to ban / heavily punish players who log off and log on a second character to avoid getting the first character killed in combat. This is easy.
SECONDARY ACTION TO TAKE IN FUTURE AFTER CAREFUL PLANNING: Enforce policy that GM's investigate and ban/punish every genuine log off that is reported where the offender did so to avoid dying.
That is all, thank you and fly safe!
-eLLioTT
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Frozen Light
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.12 13:52:00 -
[2]
Word.
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Thread Winner
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.04.12 13:52:00 -
[3]
Two Words
Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers! |
Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2007.04.12 13:59:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Thread Winner Two Words
let me guess starts with F and ends on u
->My Vids<- |
Y Ashanti
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Y Ashanti on 12/04/2007 13:57:41
Originally by: eLLioTT wave What about when someone logs off, then logs on a different char 2 seconds later? while their original char was being shot at - precisely at the time they logged off??
To my knowledge, this bug has been fixed more than 2 years ago (unless it was re-introduced in one of the last 1-2 patches).
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Stakhanov
Shih Yang Tong
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:01:00 -
[6]
It's true , GMs should be given more freedom to defend their game. The current state of logoff and ISK farming is sickening.
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Thread Winner
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:02:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Garia666
Originally by: Thread Winner Two Words
let me guess starts with F and ends on u
Word is the singular form for the word Word
Two Words is Two Words.
Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers! |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Y Ashanti Edited by: Y Ashanti on 12/04/2007 13:57:41
Originally by: eLLioTT wave What about when someone logs off, then logs on a different char 2 seconds later? while their original char was being shot at - precisely at the time they logged off??
To my knowledge, this bug has been fixed more than 2 years ago (unless it was re-introduced in one of the last 1-2 patches).
As it was not fixed 10 minutes ago I will assume it was re introduced? |
Riho
Gallente Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Y Ashanti Edited by: Y Ashanti on 12/04/2007 13:57:41
Originally by: eLLioTT wave What about when someone logs off, then logs on a different char 2 seconds later? while their original char was being shot at - precisely at the time they logged off??
To my knowledge, this bug has been fixed more than 2 years ago (unless it was re-introduced in one of the last 1-2 patches).
its sooo not fixed :( --------------------------------------- Sig killed by MODs.... reworking it Great being Gallente... aint it ? ----------------- YARRRR, sig hijack! -HornFrog ----------------- |
Y Ashanti
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave
Originally by: Y Ashanti Edited by: Y Ashanti on 12/04/2007 13:57:41
Originally by: eLLioTT wave What about when someone logs off, then logs on a different char 2 seconds later? while their original char was being shot at - precisely at the time they logged off??
To my knowledge, this bug has been fixed more than 2 years ago (unless it was re-introduced in one of the last 1-2 patches).
As it was not fixed 10 minutes ago I will assume it was re introduced?
Well, the last time I tried a while ago (to test if it actually works with two characters in the same system), I ended up with two characters on the same account peacefully sitting next to each other at a gate for a few minutes.
How do you know whoever you were shooting at logged on another character?
And yes, the log-off timer is very low, unless you have aggro (especially if the log-off happens during a long warp), but that is an altogether different issue.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:49:00 -
[11]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/04/2007 14:45:52 Dunno how you managed 2 char's sitting next to each other except lag maybe?
Anyway in this particular scenario we chased a dominix a few jumps, he was shot at on one side of the gate, forced through to the other where there was a dictor bubble, he then logged off, his ship appeared, we shot it to structure and then it instantly disappeared from space. |
Marketcheck2
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:52:00 -
[12]
Been there done that too.
Not fixed.
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:53:00 -
[13]
This can't be policed through GM's. It needs a code fix to prevent.
A simple fix is to prevent logging on an alt if another character on that account is currently in space awaiting a log off timer.
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Cabadrin
Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:01:00 -
[14]
GM looks at account for character list - 30 seconds. GM then looks to see if first account was online and fighting at the time of the complaint - 1-2 minutes? GM then looks to see if second account is online - 30 seconds GM then verifies that first account was in combat and logged off, then logged in second account - 1 minute GM issues warning not to do this again - 30 seconds.
Time spent investigating this issue: 3.5 - 4.5 minutes. Number of petitions about hostile fleet doing this (say, 20-30 players) - 20 (zomg we all saw them do it!) 3.5 minutes x 20 = 70 minutes.
Number of new petitions popping into management system during those 70 minutes: unknown, but probably enough to make you regret doing all that investigating.
I'm sure it's a significant time sink to do all that investigating, and it'd be much better if you could poke the dev team to make some new functionality that would eliminate these tickets altogether. I don't think it's reasonable for you to demand that GMs investigate and take action against this, since a huge fleet where dozens log off may take up an eigth of their shift. This may then happen several times a day, so they lose a lot of time investigating more serious things (macro-miners, harassment, cheating, etc). So I don't think it's a matter of CCP tieing their hands, but rather a matter of limited resources. It may also be as the GM said, and he simply does not have the tools to determine why soemthing happened. I think the ebst solution would be from the dev team, to make sure that even if you log on an alt, your other character's ship stays in space for 15 minutes. _______________________________________________
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hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cabadrin GM looks at account for character list - 30 seconds. GM then looks to see if first account was online and fighting at the time of the complaint - 1-2 minutes? GM then looks to see if second account is online - 30 seconds GM then verifies that first account was in combat and logged off, then logged in second account - 1 minute GM issues warning not to do this again - 30 seconds.
Yup, this must be enforced. The excuse that CCP gives these people is that they cannot verify an intentional logoff from a disconnect. But if the account logs on his alt immediately after the so called "connection drop" in battle, then it definitely was not a connection drop but intentional logoffskii
Save your own game, CCP!
== Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
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ZZandra
TARDZ Gods of Night and Day
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:17:00 -
[16]
Would people settle for a 1-2 minute wait before being able to login another toon? |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/04/2007 14:45:52 Dunno how you managed 2 char's sitting next to each other except lag maybe?
Anyway in this particular scenario we chased a dominix a few jumps, he was shot at on one side of the gate, forced through to the other where there was a dictor bubble, he then logged off, his ship appeared, we shot it to structure and then it instantly disappeared from space.
Timers reset on session change.
He was not aggressed. He logged, two minutes later his ship dissappear from space.
Just as it should have happened. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Lab Technician071548
Astro-Support Services
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:24:00 -
[18]
GMs play the game.
Do you really want other players making judgement calls about whether or not a player should be disciplined for something that cannot be proven beyond a doubt 100% of the time? I think CCP has it right but not because they are not sympathetic to the problem. Can you imagine what will happen when a GM pulls a logoff and it is later revealed that person is a GM who was ruled not to have logged off despite all appearances to the contrary? CCP doesn't want that. I don't want that. You don't want that. http://www.koolsource.com/slandark/evelabtech.gif Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Thx Pirlouit
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Claska
Amarr Magnetar Ltd Dark Synergy
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:52:00 -
[19]
actually i've been thinking about it and i think there is a way to tell if a person Quites or if its a connection drop.You simply have a signal that is there when a person is playing, if the signal gets a cut off command from the client(as in quits) then that person has quit, if the signal is cut off but receives no cutoff command (as in lagged out ,crashed or DC'd) then the person has well lagged out or crashed or DC'd. The other way is to simply have the client tell the server hey i'm quitting then the server will know the person has quit intentionally, but if the server stops receiving data and had no Quite message then the person lagged or crashed out. two way's, i prefer the first. Also in all honesly i have no idea if either of those ideas were mentioned before.
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Gone'Postal
Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Claska actually i've been thinking about it and i think there is a way to tell if a person Quites or if its a connection drop.You simply have a signal that is there when a person is playing, if the signal gets a cut off command from the client(as in quits) then that person has quit, if the signal is cut off but receives no cutoff command (as in lagged out ,crashed or DC'd) then the person has well lagged out or crashed or DC'd. The other way is to simply have the client tell the server hey i'm quitting then the server will know the person has quit intentionally, but if the server stops receiving data and had no Quite message then the person lagged or crashed out. two way's, i prefer the first. Also in all honesly i have no idea if either of those ideas were mentioned before.
Turns off modem...
Petitions for ship loss due to ISP fault or other related issue.
Force one thing, they will find another.
Originally by: Dark Shikari Anyone comparing CCP to a glacier is really not being fair to the glacier.
Tripping The Rift Since 2005 |
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot This can't be policed through GM's. It needs a code fix to prevent.
A simple fix is to prevent logging on an alt if another character on that account is currently in space awaiting a log off timer.
Nice! Also add that if a character logs off and then gets shot he is aggressed (normal 15 minute or whatever) and he cannot login a different character until after that aggression. I am so sure this can be fixed it just needs enough people to complain and then it gets done!
The squeaky wheel gets the oil. |
Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.12 16:03:00 -
[22]
When someone ctrl-q's or disconnects, they should still be scramble-able (assuming their ship is targeted and scrambled before the auto-warp takes place). Furthermore, they should not disappear in 1 minute if someone has attacked them. Passive Drakes get away too damned easily because of this.
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TheEndofTheWorld
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Posted - 2007.04.12 16:04:00 -
[23]
WHAAAT? ...
NO, THEY DO NOT DISAPPEAR DUE TO LOGGING IN ANOTHER CHAR ON THE SAME ACCOUNT.
They disappear in 60s due to not having a pvp timer on. It is perfectly normal gamemechanic.
PROOF OR STAY SILENT TBH
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Repentant Sinner
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Posted - 2007.04.12 16:11:00 -
[24]
For what it's worth...
I play chess on the Internet Chess Club (ICC)and at times a losing player will disconnect to avoid defeat (sound familiar?).
In any event, it appears ICC can easily tell a willful disconnect from a dropped connection. They routinely forfeit players who "quit", while allowing dropped connections to reconnect and finish the game.
I don't know all the ins and outs of the programing, but apparently there are ways to tell.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.12 16:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 12/04/2007 16:13:06 As always, I propose a change of the game mechanics.
Old a bit modified proposal:
- Ctrl-q, cdts, crashing don't remove your ship from space for something like 2 minutes. If you get aggressed during that time, you get the aggression timer,online or not. (The timer should be visible, once you log back in. )
- The regular log-out mechanism gets changed. When you do a regular log-out in space and are not at a pos, a timer runs down. Any action or aggression cancels that timer, aggression flags you for pvp. If the timer succeeds, you are out and your ship gets removed from space immediately.
That would stop all kind of emmergency log-offs. To log in space, you needed to go to a safe position, where you have time to click log-out and wait for the timer to run down without being aggressed, like a safespot, when hostiles are around.
And if you crash, cdt, 'accidently' control-q in space, you would have to log back in to check, if you are aggressed and do a regular logout like described above, if you want to go offline. This mechanism would only apply to logging in space of course. ___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
Claska
Amarr Magnetar Ltd Dark Synergy
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Posted - 2007.04.12 16:15:00 -
[26]
Better then nothing postal, at least this way they will have to do more then simply ctrl+q. Plus its still a better way to find out if some one truly quit or not then now.
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Maraude Fury
Minmatar Shadow Of The Light R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.12 17:08:00 -
[27]
Why not simply make a log in CCP's database that tells them how you logged out last time.
If they hit Ctrl Q, then it gets logged as the last way they logged off.
If they simply DC becuase of their ISP went down, then it would show a connection time out.
Maraude Fury Shadow Of The Light .SOL.
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Thesas
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Posted - 2007.04.12 18:09:00 -
[28]
The problem with the software observing a logout function call to confirm a player logged out is that it could be easily defeated.
A system crash or disconnect could be easily simulated by simply flipping the power switch on the modem or PC. Any software functionality that analyzes the player log off routine can be defeated client side. That is a fact.
A possible course might be a penalty for any kind of disconnect at specific times during game play. If you are about to be disintegrated and disconnect for any reason, access a penalty on that player which will be in effect when they log on next. That penalty would need be defined.
If a connection is so unstable as to be dropping a player frequently, then that player would be wise to not engage in activities whereby a disconnect penalty would be accessed.
Ask this question. Statistically, what are the odds that you will crash at the instant most opportune for your player character? I would suggest those odds are astronomical.
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Fswd
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Posted - 2007.04.12 18:40:00 -
[29]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/04/2007 13:48:59 Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/04/2007 13:47:28 CCP I believe you have tied your GM's hands on this one.
Fair enough you can't always tell an intentional logoff from a genuine disconnection..... on very rare occasion.
What about when someone logs off, then logs on a different char 2 seconds later? while their original char was being shot at - precisely at the time they logged off??
There is no doubt, there is no uncertainty, there is no excuse CCP.
I will anonymously quote a GM recently, please remove this excerpt if it is against rules: "I perfectly understand how frustrating your situation is as I am playing the game and agree that such a tactic is indeed shameful, but I remain unable to take any action as we canŠt make any distinction between normal log outs and connection drops."
Now I believe the GM knows exactly what is going on, but that it is CCP policy tying his hands in this matter.
CCP please untie their hands and stop this madness.
IMMEDIATE ACTION TO RESOLVE EXPLOIT: Allow GM's to ban / heavily punish players who log off and log on a second character to avoid getting the first character killed in combat. This is easy.
SECONDARY ACTION TO TAKE IN FUTURE AFTER CAREFUL PLANNING: Enforce policy that GM's investigate and ban/punish every genuine log off that is reported where the offender did so to avoid dying.
That is all, thank you and fly safe!
-eLLioTT
Whine --- So I flame and troll when the occasion calls for it. So what are you gonna do about it? |
Quutar
Caldari Auraxian Irregulars The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.04.12 18:44:00 -
[30]
as an experiment I did the following
on one of my accounts I have multiple characters.
char A on that account fires off a cyno... now stuck in space for 10 minutes. I observe this char with my main (quutar)
I log off this second account. Char A then disappears from local... but the ship and cyno field remain (for the full ten minutes btw). I assume if I attacked the ship, the pod would then warp off and could be probed? did not try this
BUT...
on the same account as Char A I then log in Char B... and guess what... Char A is still in front of my main. Char A did not immediately disappear when I logged in a second character on that account. Hell, I brought char b over and had both characters on the same grid.
when the cyno expired Char A warped off, and dispared after 30-60 second.
Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services. |
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Lenaria
Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2007.04.12 19:14:00 -
[31]
I'm 100% sure the bug was fixed 2 years ago. In your case the guy cleared his aggro when he jumped throu gate. Jumping throught stargate clears player agression for log-off purpose.
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prsr
Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.04.12 20:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lenaria I'm 100% sure the bug was fixed 2 years ago. In your case the guy cleared his aggro when he jumped throu gate. Jumping throught stargate clears player agression for log-off purpose.
This bug didn't even exist two years ago. It's just a very appealing way of reasoning when people can't explain someone disappearing in front of 'm.
Maybe it's something else, but i know i saw a dev post years ago telling people that there is no way they know of to get your character A to disappear from space when you connect character B on the same account. I've tried it routinely and it has never worked.
These threads pop up every few weeks, it's something like an eve urban legend tbh. -- .sig apathy ftw |
CaldariCorleone
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Posted - 2007.04.13 06:10:00 -
[33]
Hey,
You may know a game called Rising Force online, they had the same problem. They fixed it by not allowing manual logout during combat, and I believe if they dont logout properly their char stays ingame for a like a minute? Why not just stop manual logout during combat?
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Miyau
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.04.13 08:18:00 -
[34]
Something should definitely be done about the rampant abuse of logging off. If someone is getting shot (even AFTER they've done the CTRL+Q maneuver), their ship shouldn't disappear.
Anyone who PvPs has seen people log off to avoid a fight and it's stupid. Don't gimp the PvP in this game just to cover people who have a bad connection. |
Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.13 08:20:00 -
[35]
Um, I've tested this on the test server and it doesn't work. Am I missing something? ----------------------------------------------------
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DragonRiderTao
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Posted - 2007.04.13 08:38:00 -
[36]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave
CCP please untie their hands --- stop this [is] madness.
THIS IS SPARTAAAAA !
How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine. |
culdor
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.04.13 09:37:00 -
[37]
Quote: NO, THEY DO NOT DISAPPEAR DUE TO LOGGING IN ANOTHER CHAR ON THE SAME ACCOUNT.
They disappear in 60s due to not having a pvp timer on. It is perfectly normal gamemechanic.
Well, unfortunately I dont have any real proof, but Ill tell you what happened to me, what shows me that there's is indeed some way to make your ship disappear.
So, we were busy in this system but our scout reported dominix in next system, he kept warping between planets for ages, propably 30 minutes. There were no other hostiles to him, he didnt agress anyone at that time. When I had time, I jumped trough to that system and started trying to get the domi. After several minutes of warping between planets after him, I finally get in front of him in my rapier. I uncloak, lock, scram, web and fire 2 volleys and the guy disappears from local. And according to my logs the ship disappears about 50 seconds later. Well, looks normal unagressed logging off I guess, but Im sure I engaged the guy before he logged off. Well anyway, if the guy logged before I actually shot him, he didnt have agro timer, right? Thats why the ship disappeared? Well, I decided to stick around in the spot where the domi was and yeah, there he comes back online in 5 minutes or so. So I uncloak and activate my tackling gear. Therre comes the domi and even before its out of the warp, the guy logs again when seeing me there. Now this activates his emergency warp right away, I still try to tackle him, but I cannot get a lock. Im unable to log the ship for whatever reason. Anyway, Domi warps off and stays in scanner... for minute.. for 2 minutes, ah he has a agro timer? I call our prober from several jumps away, he finds the domi and yeah, its in domi-heaven now + the pilot found himself in a station when logged back next time.
Now, when did he get the agro timer? From the first and only time I shot him? Yes, I was only one who engaged him in hours. Well, if the guy got a agrotimer from that, why did the ship disappear in the first place? Cause when he logged back, I never got a lock even tho I and few friends kept on pounding the target button.
So whatever the reason is for the case of a disappearing ship, I think there's something f****d up here.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.13 16:49:00 -
[38]
Well another goon just did this now in a hauler, with pvp timer. The annoying part is we goto the effort of probing and a minute later he disappears off scanner :\
Cmon CCP you encourage this by not making it exploit except to say it is lame. What help is that? |
Rhaegor Stormborn
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.13 16:51:00 -
[39]
/signed
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Lord Slater
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.04.13 17:06:00 -
[40]
What do you expect CCP seems to suport such things nowadays. ----------------------------------------------- YYAARRHH HAHAHA IM THE HAPPY PIRATE
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Castra Noor
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Posted - 2007.04.13 17:06:00 -
[41]
I think it can't be ever against any rules to log off from game, whenever one likes. Maybe someone has an urgent RL issue, does he have to stay logged in, only caus you attacked him, so that you can destroy his ship ? I say: No ! Noone should be banished only for logging in or logging out from this game, no matter the circumstances. Period.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.13 17:17:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Castra Noor I think it can't be ever against any rules to log off from game, whenever one likes. Maybe someone has an urgent RL issue, does he have to stay logged in, only caus you attacked him, so that you can destroy his ship ? I say: No ! Noone should be banished only for logging in or logging out from this game, no matter the circumstances. Period.
You are absolutely missing the point. I agree with you, we should be able to logoff whenever it suits us - it is a game after all.
This thread is about logging off to avoid combat, then logging back in when the coast is clear and continuing on. It is about using out of game mechanics to your advantage. Technically this is an exploit.
We are more specifically talking about logging off and then immediately logging in another character to make your primary character disappear from space - avoiding PVP timers.
-eLLioTT |
Castra Noor
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Posted - 2007.04.13 17:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave
Originally by: Castra Noor I think it can't be ever against any rules to log off from game, whenever one likes. Maybe someone has an urgent RL issue, does he have to stay logged in, only caus you attacked him, so that you can destroy his ship ? I say: No ! Noone should be banished only for logging in or logging out from this game, no matter the circumstances. Period.
You are absolutely missing the point. I agree with you, we should be able to logoff whenever it suits us - it is a game after all.
This thread is about logging off to avoid combat, then logging back in when the coast is clear and continuing on. It is about using out of game mechanics to your advantage. Technically this is an exploit.
We are more specifically talking about logging off and then immediately logging in another character to make your primary character disappear from space - avoiding PVP timers.
-eLLioTT
Yes but look what you are asking for. You want GMs punish people from logging off/in in a specific situation. The only diffrence between punishable and unpunishable behaviour is the intention, the will of the one who loggs off. You are asking the GM to look in his head and to say what his reason was to do so. And thats not possible, and thats what CCP says. You would punish innocents if you would always punish if it looks suspicious. If you want that, then ask for changing the mechanics, so that people cant log in if one of their characters is still in game. But not giving the GMs power to decide situations that they cant decide on proof but only on suspicion on what the potential rulebreakers intentions were.
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Y Ashanti
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Posted - 2007.04.13 20:11:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Y Ashanti on 13/04/2007 20:12:00
Originally by: eLLioTT wave We are more specifically talking about logging off and then immediately logging in another character to make your primary character disappear from space - avoiding PVP timers.
To reiterate what several people in this thread tried out already: IT DOES NOT WORK. I routinely use different characters on the same account for a cyno route and have lost several cyno ships 5+ minutes after logging on another character on the same account doing that.
The only way to remove your PvP timer is by jumping through a gate, which is a normal game mechanic. You could argue that it should not do that, but that is not anyone exploiting a bug but just the way the PvP timer has always worked.
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Kyo Makamoto
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Posted - 2007.04.13 21:11:00 -
[45]
Why o why is it possible to log out immediately in any case. In every other mmorpg I have played, your character stays online for a certain amount of time, even if you pull the plug.
Exceptions to this may be in a safe haven (i.e. stations).
If you crash in the middle of a fight, for whatever reason then tough luck buddy. This can happen to anybody, even your enemy so it all evens out over time.
This would save the GMs hours (probably days) each month trying to sort out those reimbursement petitions and let them do something useful.
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Snapp
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.04.13 21:59:00 -
[46]
Why can they not just disable the ability to log a "new" "alternate" char on to the account if the "old" "Main" char is in space for say 15 minutes. if the char is docked it would be safe to hot swap into a different char.
other games such as ultima online used that method.
cuase crash/logout whats it matter. dead = dead
(* and I do not believe that players should be able to petition for ship losses period. but, I am not the majority.*) so crashing/logging off to me only means that the person should be dead. I so came to party!
Founding member of the "Gonna Gank a CareBear Alliance"
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Ironnight
Caldari x13
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Posted - 2007.04.13 22:28:00 -
[47]
I like the idea of not being able to login on another char, it does not have to be for very long, just a few minutes and it shouldnt be to hard to do for CCP. No more freebies for Mr. Girlieboy Logoffski.
Originally by: kieron Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer
Originally by: t20 Posted on 02.07.07 The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.04.13 22:29:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 13/04/2007 22:32:16 As far as I can tell, you don't need to log off a character under attack. Just login to the same account on a second computer, and the other session is immediately logged off. You don't even need to select a character, just login.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.04.13 22:36:00 -
[49]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave This thread is about logging off to avoid combat, then logging back in when the coast is clear and continuing on. It is about using out of game mechanics to your advantage. Technically this is an exploit.
Using out of game mechanics is not automatically an exploit. Plenty of meta-gaming is not only allowed, but encouraged. Multiple accounts and GTC selling come to mind. I think you can make a case that sometimes logging off is exploit-y behavior, but just pointing out that it is a out of game mechanic is not sufficient.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.20 07:47:00 -
[50]
Sorry to dig but...
Ebon Hawke member of GoonFleet [LWTAX] Goonswarm
you are hereby publicly named for logging off to avoid combat, and logging in a second character so that your deimos was only visible in space for 9 seconds after you jumped through a gate before it suddenly disappeared (at half armor i might add)
Exploit or not hopefully people you know will see this and think you are lame for doing it. |
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.04.20 08:15:00 -
[51]
While there are ways that exist for people to avoid death, they will use them.
When sitting at a gate cloaked, if you log off and are agressed by someone camping the gate, you should be subject to the same 15 minute agression countdown as everyone else.
When your caught at a belt and are dying, logging out and into a 2nd char to force your first char to log off, shouldn't be an option - a player who logs out aggressed shouldn't be able to log in a 2nd char on the same account for 15 minutes - of course, logging onto the aggressed account should be perfectly possible in the off chance you can recover from the disconection.
CCP should focus on fixing what are obvious loop holes in the game mechanics concerning log offs. Once thats done and given a month or so trial, alter their reimbursement policy to disclude anyone requesting reimbursement because of connection issues, unless there is a known network fault on the CCP side.
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Mink Latur
Amarr Private Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.04.20 08:53:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Mink Latur on 20/04/2007 08:51:40 Oh boy! Of course im loging in a different character after i just loged of with a different on in peril... Now what's the suprise? I can't play with char #1 as i like and am in not in a mood to not even come close to bother with politics/pvp... of course i log on a diferent character. Why? Because im in the mood to play eve. And play the way i like, not the way you like. Suprising? Not really...
Disclaimer: I didn't read past the OPs post.
Remove all safety labels, give evolution a chance. |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.20 08:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth While there are ways that exist for people to avoid death, they will use them.
When sitting at a gate cloaked, if you log off and are agressed by someone camping the gate, you should be subject to the same 15 minute agression countdown as everyone else.
When your caught at a belt and are dying, logging out and into a 2nd char to force your first char to log off, shouldn't be an option - a player who logs out aggressed shouldn't be able to log in a 2nd char on the same account for 15 minutes - of course, logging onto the aggressed account should be perfectly possible in the off chance you can recover from the disconection.
CCP should focus on fixing what are obvious loop holes in the game mechanics concerning log offs. Once thats done and given a month or so trial, alter their reimbursement policy to disclude anyone requesting reimbursement because of connection issues, unless there is a known network fault on the CCP side.
Yes well that would work |
Malcanis
High4Life
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Posted - 2007.04.20 09:34:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth While there are ways that exist for people to avoid death, they will use them.
When sitting at a gate cloaked, if you log off and are agressed by someone camping the gate, you should be subject to the same 15 minute agression countdown as everyone else.
When your caught at a belt and are dying, logging out and into a 2nd char to force your first char to log off, shouldn't be an option - a player who logs out aggressed shouldn't be able to log in a 2nd char on the same account for 15 minutes - of course, logging onto the aggressed account should be perfectly possible in the off chance you can recover from the disconection.
CCP should focus on fixing what are obvious loop holes in the game mechanics concerning log offs. Once thats done and given a month or so trial, alter their reimbursement policy to disclude anyone requesting reimbursement because of connection issues, unless there is a known network fault on the CCP side.
That's one of the most intelligent posts on this subject I have seen.
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Llewellyn III
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Posted - 2007.04.20 10:02:00 -
[55]
WIne Wine Wine wine. Get on with it.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.20 10:09:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Maraude Fury Why not simply make a log in CCP's database that tells them how you logged out last time.
If they hit Ctrl Q, then it gets logged as the last way they logged off.
If they simply DC becuase of their ISP went down, then it would show a connection time out.
And if I decided to pull the internet plug? Then I would get the ship reimbursed if you got it instead...
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Helforian
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.04.20 10:14:00 -
[57]
You guys need to read up on how the aggression timer works. You can NOT aggress somebody AFTER they have logged off.
In this instance, the person lost aggro when he jump through the gate. After seeing hostiles, he logs off BEFORE he decloaks. Since he has NO aggression (remember, he's logged off) he will disappear after 2 minutes (max).
When he logged back in 5 minutes later and saw you all in local, he logged off AGAIN. Since he was logged off when you tried to target him, he was not there and was able to log warp off again with impunity.
There was no second character, simply somebody that knows how to work the aggression time in his favor.
It suck, but that's the way the game works.
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B orange
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Posted - 2007.04.20 10:30:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Cabadrin GM looks at account for character list - 30 seconds. GM then looks to see if first account was online and fighting at the time of the complaint - 1-2 minutes? GM then looks to see if second account is online - 30 seconds GM then verifies that first account was in combat and logged off, then logged in second account - 1 minute GM issues warning not to do this again - 30 seconds.
Time spent investigating this issue: 3.5 - 4.5 minutes. Number of petitions about hostile fleet doing this (say, 20-30 players) - 20 (zomg we all saw them do it!) 3.5 minutes x 20 = 70 minutes.
What about a script?
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Susan Acid
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.04.20 11:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave Sorry to dig but...
Ebon Hawke member of GoonFleet [LWTAX] Goonswarm
you are hereby publicly named for logging off to avoid combat, and logging in a second character so that your deimos was only visible in space for 9 seconds after you jumped through a gate before it suddenly disappeared (at half armor i might add)
Exploit or not hopefully people you know will see this and think you are lame for doing it.
Proof or STFU.
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B orange
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Posted - 2007.04.20 11:34:00 -
[60]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave Sorry to dig but...
Ebon Hawke member of GoonFleet [LWTAX] Goonswarm
you are hereby publicly named for logging off to avoid combat, and logging in a second character so that your deimos was only visible in space for 9 seconds after you jumped through a gate before it suddenly disappeared (at half armor i might add)
Exploit or not hopefully people you know will see this and think you are lame for doing it.
Now, did you or did you not had a dictor bubble on that gate? To quote a dead man "that's the question"..
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Vactet
Immortalis Silens
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Posted - 2007.04.20 12:25:00 -
[61]
Just a minor thought... Say CCP sets it up so it logs how you logged out. Hitting the X (For those in windowed mode like me), or CTRL-Q, or if the ISP fails. Thats nice..really. But i dont know about the rest of yall... On my nice big VOIP/Internet Cable modem... Theres this button... "STANDBY" If i push that...it cuts the connection instantly..period. On CCP's end that would show as an ISP Failure.
Come up with a more concrete idea for a solution and consider factors outside of the game. Oh and for those older modems...simply unplugging the cable gets the same ISP Failure response.
Oh and elliott. Dont go calling people out without proof. Its not that this is the internet and no one trusts anyone..oh..wait...it is. Sometimes the world needs to be kicked in the face to stop drooling on itself like an ignorant child. ::Im paid to talk, not to be civil.
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:27:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Helforian You guys need to read up on how the aggression timer works. You can NOT aggress somebody AFTER they have logged off.
In this instance, the person lost aggro when he jump through the gate. After seeing hostiles, he logs off BEFORE he decloaks. Since he has NO aggression (remember, he's logged off) he will disappear after 2 minutes (max).
When he logged back in 5 minutes later and saw you all in local, he logged off AGAIN. Since he was logged off when you tried to target him, he was not there and was able to log warp off again with impunity.
There was no second character, simply somebody that knows how to work the aggression time in his favor.
It suck, but that's the way the game works.
You need to read the post!
If the 2 minute timer worked as it should all the targets we have come across that have done this would be dead (easily!). When you login second char the 2 minute timer is broken and the ship dissapears instantly (BEFORE 2 MINUTES).
The Goon above disappeared approx 9 seconds after he jumped into a bubble. The timers AREN'T working as they should. |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:34:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Vactet Just a minor thought... Say CCP sets it up so it logs how you logged out. Hitting the X (For those in windowed mode like me), or CTRL-Q, or if the ISP fails. Thats nice..really. But i dont know about the rest of yall... On my nice big VOIP/Internet Cable modem... Theres this button... "STANDBY" If i push that...it cuts the connection instantly..period. On CCP's end that would show as an ISP Failure.
Obviously, so make it ISP failure = bad luck bye bye ship. If you internet connection is so unstable then you shouldn't fly anything expensive that you can't afford to lose.
I fly 200m + ISK ships frequently and last week my net was dropping in and out every 10 minutes, i didn't lose any to disconnection (even though my ship mysteriously never warped off) but if i had of too bad get another or fly something cheap if i couldn't afford another.
RE proof, let someone prove otherwise (or let the person in question say otherwise and i will retract the comment pending screenshots/fraps).
THE POINT OF THIS THREAD IS:
GM's can easily look at game logs, see the person was in battle, they logged off and immediately logged in a second char to make first disappear. They hand out punishment (severe), everyone hears that you now get punished for doing it and the problem goes away pretty soon.
It ain't rocket science people! |
Vactet
Immortalis Silens
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Posted - 2007.04.20 18:19:00 -
[64]
Grr.. 200M+ISK....wow. I fly a ship worth roughly 600M, its a BS, thats all you get.
So ISP Failure=bad luck bye bye=my fault? How again is my isp dropping the ball my fault? And DONT you dare say "Choose another ISP" there isnt one. I live in a condo I own, there is only one ISP. 2nd off.... To my knowledge, and i havent had a reason to check recently, that log onto another char thing no longer works to immediately make the first character disappear.
So basically..let me get this straight, your entire whine. Wha Wha. CCP, hold my hand. I am but a wee lil lass and cannot play without mamasan guiding me.
Right so..remove your head from your rectal cavity.
Yes folks logging off is annoying. Yes you just want to ring their ever loving necks. Yes..EVERYONE has done it at some point (Intentionally or not) No..CCP does not need to fix anything Yes..you need to learn to overcome your shortcomings.
I hope to never go into battle beside you elliot and the reason is simple. You have the tactical sense of a chicken.
But only to be fair, i will give you an idea. Friendslist/Buddylist the guy. Pull your gang back to the next system, the one on the other side of the gate he logged off at. Be patient. When he loggs back on you KNOW he is instantly warping back to that spot. Ok so he logs on. Count to 5. Jump in. Smile as he warps right into your gang. (IF 0.0) Drop dictor bubble. KILL THE SOB.
Why..is that so hard to do? Go onto the test server, practice with friends. Once you get it down...the log off trick is nothing but a chance for you to scare the waste from the guys system. Cause as you know, once he logs back in and auto warps..he cant really stop it. So if you are fast, you catch him. Sometimes the world needs to be kicked in the face to stop drooling on itself like an ignorant child. ::Im paid to talk, not to be civil.
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.04.20 18:28:00 -
[65]
The sad thing is that I lost a ship due to legit issues with the game desyncing and I didn't get reimbursed because the server didn't log any problems. Maybe the next time I am having issues with the game I should DC my modem then they will reimburse it.
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LarryBongo
Stinky Wee Morons
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Posted - 2007.04.20 19:16:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Vactet
. . . Ok so he logs on. Count to 5. Jump in. Smile as he warps right into your gang. (IF 0.0) Drop dictor bubble. KILL THE SOB.
Why..is that so hard to do? Go onto the test server, practice with friends. Once you get it down...the log off trick is nothing but a chance for you to scare the waste from the guys system. Cause as you know, once he logs back in and auto warps..he cant really stop it. So if you are fast, you catch him.
Because what the guy actually does is logon, see that you and your buddies are still in local, so he logs off. Then he logs on again, and off again, and does that a few more times. Each time he does that, the emergency warp moves him another 1m km away from the gatecamp.
Guess what, you can 'stop' the autowarp unfortunately.
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DeadProphet
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.20 20:11:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Stakhanov It's true , GMs should be given more freedom to defend their game. The current state of logoff and ISK farming is sickening.
quoted for total truth
its out of control
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Vactet
Immortalis Silens
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Posted - 2007.04.21 07:27:00 -
[68]
Originally by: LarryBongo
Because what the guy actually does is logon, see that you and your buddies are still in local, so he logs off. Then he logs on again, and off again, and does that a few more times. Each time he does that, the emergency warp moves him another 1m km away from the gatecamp.
Guess what, you can 'stop' the autowarp unfortunately.
You sir fail the Reading 101 Class.
Hence why i said a nub alt. I dont know about the rest of yall but I always keep one around when im hunting to use as a forward scout or as a gate scout when its time to go. So use the nub scout in the system with the guy and he will have no way of telling for sure if its your alt or someone else's or a new player going for a joy ride. And yes, you can stop Ewarp if you catch it RIGHT as it starts. The reason i said wait 5 seconds is because most likely he will be in warp already, once in warp..then he cant stop it as yall jump into system. I just love how you totally missed the whole "Wait for 5", "Use a nub alt". GJ on reading comprehension.
Sometimes the world needs to be kicked in the face to stop drooling on itself like an ignorant child. ::Im paid to talk, not to be civil.
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.04.21 07:46:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Cabadrin GM looks at account for character list - 30 seconds. GM then looks to see if first account was online and fighting at the time of the complaint - 1-2 minutes? GM then looks to see if second account is online - 30 seconds GM then verifies that first account was in combat and logged off, then logged in second account - 1 minute GM issues warning not to do this again - 30 seconds.
Time spent investigating this issue: 3.5 - 4.5 minutes. Number of petitions about hostile fleet doing this (say, 20-30 players) - 20 (zomg we all saw them do it!) 3.5 minutes x 20 = 70 minutes. (...)
Macro it, then. -----
History is made by whinners
Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
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LarryBongo
Stinky Wee Morons
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Posted - 2007.04.21 16:33:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Vactet
Originally by: LarryBongo
Because what the guy actually does is logon, see that you and your buddies are still in local, so he logs off. Then he logs on again, and off again, and does that a few more times. Each time he does that, the emergency warp moves him another 1m km away from the gatecamp.
Guess what, you can 'stop' the autowarp unfortunately.
You sir fail the Reading 101 Class.
Hence why i said a nub alt. I dont know about the rest of yall but I always keep one around when im hunting to use as a forward scout or as a gate scout when its time to go. So use the nub scout in the system with the guy and he will have no way of telling for sure if its your alt or someone else's or a new player going for a joy ride. And yes, you can stop Ewarp if you catch it RIGHT as it starts. The reason i said wait 5 seconds is because most likely he will be in warp already, once in warp..then he cant stop it as yall jump into system. I just love how you totally missed the whole "Wait for 5", "Use a nub alt". GJ on reading comprehension.
Bah, I was drunk and trying to speed read past the invective. Sorry I missed the 5 or so lines of actual useful content.
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benzss
Circular Destiny Lupus Caerulus
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Posted - 2007.04.21 16:44:00 -
[71]
The solution is to ban people having alts.
Nobody should have that much spare money to spend.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.21 18:56:00 -
[72]
Originally by: benzss The solution is to ban people having alts.
Nobody should have that much spare money to spend.
Um yeh, anyway....
I am all for having links on each char to all alts on the same account though! (especially on the forums!!!) |
WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.21 19:34:00 -
[73]
Its not possible to tell why a connection is lost, you can put in all the flags you want serverside, but if the connection is lost there won't a reason. Simple fact is you don't know why he logged out, I will leave the comments how your treating others to myself.
Anyone that says you can flag a connection when they "exit" the client, doesn't know what they are talking about. There is a reason why no matter how you close the client, the wait is the same, only difference is the length of the wait.
Talking in general facts, how most games like Eve-Online work.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.22 16:00:00 -
[74]
Originally by: WhitePhantom Its not possible to tell why a connection is lost, you can put in all the flags you want serverside, but if the connection is lost there won't a reason. Simple fact is you don't know why he logged out, I will leave the comments how your treating others to myself.
Anyone that says you can flag a connection when they "exit" the client, doesn't know what they are talking about. There is a reason why no matter how you close the client, the wait is the same, only difference is the length of the wait.
Talking in general facts, how most games like Eve-Online work.
Relevant how?
No need to "flag a connection" just look at log that says Account A logged off with char 1 while being shot at 10:01 - then logged in char 2 at 10:01 to make char 1 disappear from space skipping the log off timer.
Also CCP please turn off aggression timer reset when jumping.
The number of people that use the exploit this thread is about on a daily basis in Great Wildlands is just amazing.
I keep harping on about it because I have spent a lot of time and SP learning and being able to tackle very well. When I do tackle a target and the player logs off and makes their ship disappear 5-10 seconds later it is incredibly frustrating.
If you are a carebear then picture this:
You can finally fly your shiny new Hulk. However, every second belt you warp to all the asteroids disappear when you try to lock them. Sound like fun?
Sound like fun? |
Evengard
Solar Dragons Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.22 18:20:00 -
[75]
Welcome to the fan-club... We facing all this every day. So as i see it:
1. Player logging off, no agression timer, he warps away, and dissapers after 1-2 minutes. 2. Player logging off, no agression timer, but he got scrambled by player, so he stay of that place with standard 15 minute agro timer. with aggro timer on Pod 3. Player logging off in Warp Disruption sphere without agro, he uncloacks, and getting scrambled etc on point 2. 4. Player logging off scrambled by NPCs, he stays on place for 3-5 minutes and dissapear
Someting like that... ___________________ Recon and Intercept |
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