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Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:09:00 -
[1]
Here's a discussion I had with a fellow UO-player a couple of minutes ago:
----------------------- Gottfried (BoC) (09:58 PM) : 'Ey Lex Lex (10:00 PM) : yo Gottfried (BoC) (10:01 PM) : How's it hangin? Lex (10:01 PM) : playing eve 4tw Gottfried (BoC) (10:01 PM) : Nice. Gottfried (BoC) (10:01 PM) : I would play that game if it wasn't so long term Gottfried (BoC) (10:02 PM) : When yous tart that game, you are so incredibly out classed it's ridiculous Lex (10:02 PM) : nah Gottfried (BoC) (10:02 PM) : *shrug* Gottfried (BoC) (10:02 PM) : Age of Conan is my savior Gottfried (BoC) (10:02 PM) : Untill then, Pootang. ----------------
So what do I tell this player? To specialize and focus on one field? Many players want to be able to play a broad part of the game.
I mean, it's alright if the difference is something like: -------------> --->
But with some people having skills at 60 or 70mill SP
-------------------------------------> (Veteran) > New player)
The differance is just too great at times.
I think CCP need to make another boost for new players, and perhaps buff some of the players who have had accounts since day 1 but recently returned. That's another point I've seen where players used to play EVE but are reluctant to return cause their old characters are just helplessly behind in skilltraining when new characters start at higher points.
Any ideas from the fellow EVE-Online community?
EVE Online - Pirates |
Haakon Jarl
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:11:00 -
[2]
Some people can't be saved.
In it for the state |
Rhaegor Stormborn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:13:00 -
[3]
Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
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Maam
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
Then don't start off in a "good long standing corp in a large alliance"! Work your way toward it if that's what you want. There are always roles in corps for lower SP characters, tackling etc. Don't run for your first battleship ... take it easy and aim for Assault Frigates first while you are learning the game. Still pack a punch, hard enough to kill, and a heck of a lot cheaper to buy and fit than a battleship.
You think drivers pass their L-Test and just step up to a Formula 1 car and start driving for the best team on day 1?
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Gerog
Gallente Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
It don't take 6 months to be part of pvp. If you have a fair decent sized gang, you can always fit a frigate with a warp scram and/or webber. Add to that a MWD and you got yourself a tackler. It don't take too long to train up until you get your bc, bs or whatever you want to pwn people in. Tacklers are needed in fleet and in gangs and they are inexpensive. Bigger ship doesn't always mean better. Gerog |
Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:22:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Maam
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
Then don't start off in a "good long standing corp in a large alliance"! Work your way toward it if that's what you want. There are always roles in corps for lower SP characters, tackling etc. Don't run for your first battleship ... take it easy and aim for Assault Frigates first while you are learning the game. Still pack a punch, hard enough to kill, and a heck of a lot cheaper to buy and fit than a battleship.
You think drivers pass their L-Test and just step up to a Formula 1 car and start driving for the best team on day 1?
Thing is. I think there are many good players who feel limited by the slow training times when they start as a totally new player.
Sure, you can gather ISK and buy a better char but that doesnt really solve the problem + you need to know about the possibility of buying chars as a new player.
EVE Online - Pirates |
Maam
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ander Sure, you can gather ISK and buy a better char but that doesnt really solve the problem + you need to know about the possibility of buying chars as a new player.
Even now, I'd rather start from scratch with a player of my own, knowing I'd nurtured her / him from the very start, rather than buy another character. I'd class that the same as buying second hand shoes or underpants. I know I can do it, but wouldn't want to!
It might seem slow to begin with, but you have all the skills laid out at your feet, and you have the fun of deciding which of Eve's many paths you can walk. Skills you can get to lvl 3 in half a day to a day.
IMO most new players make the mistake of thinking it's a race into the battleship and then they win Eve.
Tell your mates I'm more scared of a fast AF coming towards me to put a couple of points on me, than I am scared of the BC or BS sitting 50km away.
The only real pain in Eve in the early days or me was not being able to even fit a lot of modules, let alone use them efficiently.
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Haakon Jarl
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:31:00 -
[8]
Slow training time? New players start of with nearly a millon sp for crying out loud.
In it for the state |
Dop Sutol
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:36:00 -
[9]
As a new player it is hard to get into Alliance/PvP-combat Corp play. Most PvP corps have min requirements that are pretty high, like 10 million SP. I'm 3 months old and have a little over 3.5, my alt who is just training learning skills has a little over 4.5 million. Now, these 10 million SP requirements do have a purpose:
I took a third alt of mine (Yes I have 3 accounts, hey I love Eve) and brought my char up to Level 3 in all the flying, combat, and ship skills my character need. I then joined an alliance a friend from a previous game was a part of and found out why you need the 10 million SP.
Friend: "Set up your rifter like this for BS tackling" Me: Ah, I can't, I'm short on PG....
Friend: "OK, set up a WD scrambler with this, this, and this." Me: OK, but I can't fit anything in my high slots now...
Basically I could not set up my ship in a way that would be effective for PvP, I just did not have enough skills. I think it is going to take a half of a year total, until I can add something to PvP. And that is the problem 100% combat focused n00bies will have with Eve. Luckily, I learned to love resource harvesting in SWG, so I have no REAL problems with Eve.
BTW- It really sucks leaving a friend's alliance, you feel like you let em down.
How to solve the issue? Halve the training time on all skills. Veterans benefit because those long ass skills take less time to learn and noobs benifit because they can enter the Eve PvP combat community that much quicker. (I know I will get flamed for that, let it be said that I do not need the training time halved, I like Eve as is... Thank you.)
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:42:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Soporo on 26/03/2007 20:42:33 Rhaegor Stormborn, I suggest going down to the recruitment forum. There are a lot of other 0.0 Corps that take low skill point people. Only real rule a lot have is, "don't be a tard."
Also, I was aiming at a bs myself, among other things, till I jumped in a new Battlecruiser, now you cant pry me out of my Drake, you can pod me maybe, but not pry me.
I know a guy whos 2 years old in-game and still flys nothing but frigates and other light stuff, though he could step into a Command Ship if he so chose.
But yeah, to a degree I feel like you do sometimes, and I've been in for 5-6 months, I suspect that feeling will always remain, every time you encounter someone flying some uber sh*t thats out of your league.
To Dop, I dunno man, the Goons wouldnt be so damn big and nasty if that was totally true.
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:53:00 -
[11]
I think its fine just the way it is.
Many months ago before you new people started, we had it much harder: implants were very expensive, skill requirements were higher (so we basicly trained some skills for nothing).
So we realy did work for our sp. I was also worried that I had started a mmorpg that had players that were 2-3 years older than me. Dont let it bother you just enjoy the game for what it is the freedom to do what you want!
Another point is that when vets fly a ship they only use a certain percentage of thier sp, so having uber skill points in battelships and large guns and everything else that they have isnt going to help at all when flying a smaller ship. |
Wild Rho
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:54:00 -
[12]
The simple truth is Eve won't be for everyone.
They'll either like what it as to offer and invest the time into playing more of it or they won't. Little point in trying to force it on someone.
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Aleria Angelis
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:54:00 -
[13]
Theres loads of PvP corps that will take players with only 1 mill SP *points to link in siggie* the ones that ask for 10m SP are the Elite PvP corps, no you cant expect to be an elite player after only 3 months. EVEs a complex game, not only are you training your skills your also learning about the game, Ive been around for 2 years now and theres still stuff I dont know, if Id simply brought a char they'd be alot more I didnt know
Sorry to have another bash at WoW but its games like that, where everyones in a rush to get to level 60 as soon as posible that make EVE look slow.
GEPT opens its doors! |
Lunfal
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:13:00 -
[14]
Well you have to look at it this way. For eve 0.0 and allience warfare is eve's endgame.
Saying that you want to do that off the bat is like saying that you want to do lvl 70 raid instences in your first week of playing World of warcraft. (it takes you a month or two to get to 70, then that amount to get the equipment needed for raiding)
That being said eve offers alot to new players, and it's not like you have to sit on your butt and wait for 0.0 to open up. He can still participate in empire wars and do some of many other things eve has to offer.
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Cloora
APEX Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:21:00 -
[15]
This is what I tell all new or potential new players to this game that are put off by the skill system.
The law of diminishing returns.
It takes less time to train a skill from level 0 to level 4 as it does to go from 4 to 5. Yet the bonues are 4 times greater for the former.
New players catch up fast.
Old players are basically training skills in other fields or extreme advanced skills (Titans?) to have something to do.
Characters with 20 million + SP started in combat and now are training stuff to try exploration or production. New characters can't expect to do that. That is the price to pay.
But if you are a good player and a smart player you can make your character with much less SP work VERY effectivly in combat (and other things) and compete with the vets.
I have only 3.5 million SP and I already command the respect of older players in given situations. And I have only been playing since November.
Tell your friend this and tell them they are missing out on the best MMO ever. ======================================== Production Assistant of APEX Unlimited
I don't want to be forced to Jet Can mine or buy a hauler alt to mine effectivly. BIGGER CARGO HOLDS IN BARGES NOW! |
sakana
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:25:00 -
[16]
get rid of the learning skills, boost new players starting attributes?
a lot of current players will whine that this therefore isnt fair on them, but we've all been through it, so haud yer wheest! ------------
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Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:31:00 -
[17]
When you take an honest look at this game it's really not meant for new players at this stage.
That's about the simplest view of things. --- Be true to your work, your word, and your friend. Henry David Thoreau |
EntroX
Caldari El Fugel Corp
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ander Here's a discussion I had with a fellow UO-player a couple of minutes ago:
I mean, it's alright if the difference is something like: -------------> --->
But with some people having skills at 60 or 70mill SP
-------------------------------------> (Veteran) > New player)
The difference is much easier than you think, just like any MMORPG the LVL 1 character (or low SP) doesn't stand a chance solo against the LVL X (insert level there) for obvious reasons, but this isn't any stupid level based game, here there are roles that have to be filled in order to do actions, I'd rather have 5 noobs in frigates as tacklers than 1 uber guy with lots of sp.
The problem with eve is finding your role, if you know what you want you have to work out your path untill you get there, thats the way i saw it when i started and its the excuse that i use to keep getting people to play :P
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Calamitty
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:46:00 -
[19]
i dont think new players should be thrust into PVP right off the bat,
while your waiting for your 3-5 mil SP until you can seriously do hurt, a NEW PLAYER will learn how the rest of the game works
flying around, gathering minirals, fighting dud NPC's etc, learning the basics, by the time they level to a good enough position they would have learned the basic skill set they need to be a good player.
what good is 10m SP if you dont know how to do ANYTHING??
i think the game is setup perfectly, its simply not set up for everybody.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Requiem of Hades
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:51:00 -
[20]
Show them how warm and fuzzy eVe-O forum is that tells them PvP is not about massing skill points? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
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Kasilof
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:56:00 -
[21]
Pretty new player here about 3 months. I really like EVE and will keep playing it but the training is really slow. The biggest turn off is learning skills. You gotta have them so the first month or two is spent mostly training stuff so you can learn stuff. I almost quit the game over this. A friend started the same time I did he quit because he wanted to play and felt like he was just waiting on the clock.
I would recommend that CCP do away with learing skills or make them an added benifit from training other essentail skills. Of course if they do away with them and grant new players the attributes they would have to compensate older players that learned them with more SP.
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Dranearian
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:26:00 -
[22]
I have about 1.8 million skillpoints.
I am in a 0.0 corp/alliance. I pvp regularly. I knew none of them prior to this game.
I also get told every gang that those of us with low skillpoints shouldn't be discouraged, because the ships we are flying are vital to the gang.
By having us running frigates with webs/scrams it allows those with the skillpoints to be in a more specialized ship. I would like to see a lot of the battleships function without a tackler. It works, just not nearly as well.
You may not have many Skillpoints, but you can still hop into a merlin and fit to speed-lock those shuttles and scram em :)
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Strel Samodelkin
Caldari Nationalist Party
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:29:00 -
[23]
Tell him to write a letter to CCP.
CEO Caldari Nationalist Party http://www.eve-caldari.com Eve Online tips now available! Go to the link above! |
Maam
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:35:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Maam on 26/03/2007 22:32:00 All new players should remember, like learner drivers, all the experienced people have been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
I did the learning skills, couldn't fit **** due to grid or CPU issues for the first few months.
Didn't stop me playing and learning. I wasn't uber leet then, and still am not.
You think waiting for skill trains to finish is boring at the start? I waited 40 days for Gallente BS 5 to finish, and now I fly mainly Caldari!
Stick with it, do whatever is within your capabilities, and play on through.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Alektorophobia
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
There are many important roles that can be filled with lower sp characters. For example tackling, EW and various other support roles. Yes, training for primary damage dealer takes time, but it is faster than ever thanks to the wonderful Rokhs, that enable you to reach to sniper BS ranges with T1 guns and contribute your part in that role too... Just contact your FC when he is not busy, and he will propably be more than happy to discuss how you can best contribute.
As for getting into good corps. Look through the recruiting forums and see if there is anything that you like there, or just apply to a corp that does pvp training for new players. Most large alliances have training corporations for possible new players, or if Eve University, or agony unleashed are still around, it's worth a shot applying. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Mogrin
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Posted - 2007.03.26 23:09:00 -
[26]
What are you to say? Hes absolutely right, eve is for long-term or you are wasting your time. Other games you can get the grind out of the way and then do what you want without much of a disadvantage. Can't say that about eve.
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Nymos
Fimbulvintr
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Posted - 2007.03.26 23:20:00 -
[27]
yup there are 0.0 corps that take low sp pilots. that's how they get loyal recruits instead of corp hoppers if they make an experienced player out of a noob.
it's true, you can't fit real good setups, but is that important? i mean, even if you could fit a setup with maxed fitting skills would that really make a huge difference? tbh, a noob who just raced to his battleship and invested all his little isk he had can't properly fly it and in no way he can replace it (this is an important point, income).
battleships do need high end fitting skills, good cap skills and good weapon skills to make them rock. else the tank will break way fast and its damage will suck and not really worth the investment. skills at lvl3 won't do it with a BS, interceptors and assault frigs are very useful ships. ceptors are fairly cheap too. and a good ceptor pilot can make a difference. can never have enough of them.
eve has a long learning curve. you'd miss out the fun of learning (the game, not the SP) if you could start way ahead. and btw new players start with 800k+ SP. they get lvl5 skills at character creation! this skill system keeps people playing. there's always something you want to train even with 40m sp. other games live from content upgrades which is just more of the same. eve lives from the deep skill system and the player involvement.
play for a year which is when you will have a really solid set of skills and you'll feel that the waiting paid off. it'll give you some achievement. eve isn't for everyone. you love it or hate it. it requires patience, nothing can be rushed in eve at all. everquest 2 tried to cater for everyone and it sucks accordingly. --
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.26 23:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ander But with some people having skills at 60 or 70mill SP
-------------------------------------> (Veteran) > New player)
The differance is just too great at times.
The difference is not so bad as it may seem. Remember this is not a level based game where you need to have 60 mil SP to do anything.
If you want to be an uberleet miner you can probably pull that off with something like 12 million SP. With 5-6 mil SP you can be a pretty decent frig pilot. For those getting ready to quibble over my numbers don't bother...just illustration. The point is that the guy with 60 mil SP can probably mine with the best of them, fly a carrier, fly every race's battleships (and probably most ships in the game) and do research and build. So, while that guy can fly all four races battleships with MUCH less training you can fly one race's battleship just as well. A few things are exceedingly long to get to (Command Ships, Cap Ships and such) but there is still plenty a lower SP character can do.
Further, unlike WOW, you can be useful at low levels. People love having suicidal frig tacklers with them and it is fun to do. If you want a mining corp you can start helping with hauling as you work up to a good mining ship in not so much time. 60 mil SP guy may have been training for 4 years but he can't mine any better than you could with several months of work.
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syphurous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.26 23:27:00 -
[29]
I'm sorry, you want Eve to be more like Wow ? Easy ?
Its the training times that use to sort out the men from the boys ( Girls - Ladies ), since they gave more sp at start up I've noticed a total loss of maturity in my NPC corp ( mine included :P ) Having to deal with whining kiddes because their ship went pop and they lost all their expensive fittings, only to find out they lost a rookie ship with the dropped loot from the training ships fitted. I'm only at 7.6 mil SP and I dont feel I'm behind anyone, I'll take on a titan single handed ! I'll get a vacum bath in space, but its not like I didn't have a fighting chance ( the pilot could be AFK or DC with aggro :P ).
You have to work for everything in life, why should Eve be any different ?
You dont need to join a corp to experience the game, plently of us in the N00b corps get into the action. ______________________________
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Nyabinghi
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.03.27 00:00:00 -
[30]
Things have gotten better for new players with the million skillpoint starter kit. As far as how many skillpoints you need to get along in the universe it depends on what you want to do. EVE is however becoming increasingly cut throat. Whatever profession you want to take on be sure there are many thousands who are doing it far more efficiently and effectively than you, trading and combat being two very good examples. Add to that isk farmers and well I don't envy the new player's position at all.
And yes there are Alliances that take on low skillpoint players. It's called the Meat Shield Initiative. ***
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.03.27 00:30:00 -
[31]
SP !=skill and SP !=experience
Yet skill and experience is what you need.
As far as I'm concerned the 800k SP boost for newbs just made them lose cruisers earlier. They're still making the same stupid mistakes and they're still newbs for as long as new players half a year ago have been.
If they could pilot battleships right from the start, they'd lose them in their first week - and they would complain that earning ISK is too hard, as they need 200m now. Except when some veteran comes along and tells them what to do. Great, doing what others tell you from day 1 on. No finding out yourself, no accomplishments, just some dependent test-tube baby.
Exactly what kind of player would this draw into the game? No thanks.
___________________________________ _/_/ "The sky is the sky wherever you go" _/_/ |
Stakhanov
Shih Yang Tong
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Posted - 2007.03.27 00:54:00 -
[32]
No. Training times are here for a reason. They don't just separate new players from old players ; they encourage specialization and methodical character building. They reward patience and foresight. Without them , Eve would be a straightforward game about accumulating ISK to fly the best possible machariels or whatever.
I liked hardcore Eve pre-kali (BS camps all over lowsec , starting with only the skills to fly frigates) and the willpower it required to make progress. The only helpful boost came from extra learning skills at start , reducing an annoying timesink. Week old newbies should not be able to fly cruisers or fit T2 , for their own good - and for the variety of the game.
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.27 01:42:00 -
[33]
everything is fine....
except the guys that bait newbs with cans with "free stuff" and the scammer that targets newb specificly...
but hey, is part of eve... We molest innocent Virgin new players.. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
syphurous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.27 02:59:00 -
[34]
I believe if you petition anyone baiting newbs in the newb systems they will get warned and told to move out of the systems.
I've taken their bait and chased them around the systems before, they usually hide in the station till I disappear from local. They crap themselves when they discover 2 or 3 ganged battleships's taking their bait and sitting outside waiting for them.
Griefing the griefers doesn't usually result in any warnings at all. ______________________________
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Mogrin
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Posted - 2007.03.27 03:33:00 -
[35]
I don't think 99% of you even understood his statement. Eve is without question a longterm game. In comparison to other games, you get the point. His statement is undebatable.
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.03.27 03:39:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Derovius Vaden on 27/03/2007 03:35:24 It takes ~30 days to get into a battleship with half-decent skills to PvP, how many people do you know that can reach level 60 (or 70, whatever they get up to now) in a month? The biggest difference is that EVE doesn't bullsh** you about how long it will take, they are all up front with it.
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Nizar
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.27 03:56:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ander
I think CCP need to make another boost for new players, and perhaps buff some of the players who have had accounts since day 1 but recently returned. That's another point I've seen where players used to play EVE but are reluctant to return cause their old characters are just helplessly behind in skilltraining when new characters start at higher points.
NO! good nuff?
-------------- Nizar -------------- BARON VON NEINLEDERHOSEN
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Jacquot Troyes
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Posted - 2007.03.27 04:09:00 -
[38]
If anyone is counting, I am against the new character creation system. 800+ skill points is way too high for a new character. I think my old char from about a year ago has less than that and I played him for a month.
You should be able to leap in to PvP and the other advanced aspects of the game in no less than a month.
I wanted to start a new character, but was disappointed to find I could not build one from scratch. This is a roleplaying game. Most of the fun comes from starting some pathetic loser and transforming yourself in to a knowledgeable and capable winner. Its that grind to get those first skills up that are so rewarding.
Please, some dev feedback would be appreciated.
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k Rose
ECMI
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Posted - 2007.03.27 04:17:00 -
[39]
This post is just a whine! GL with your post.....
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Eridicus
Deadworlds Reclamation Inc Ice Storm Allliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 04:29:00 -
[40]
Here's an example of a low SP(8M) new(Takes 6 months) using a T1 cruiser to take out T2 ships solo.
Proof
If he can do that solo, people with far less SP can hook up in other gangs and actually have a role to play.
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Mr Mozzie
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.03.27 04:43:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Stakhanov No. Training times are here for a reason. They don't just separate new players from old players ; they encourage specialization and methodical character building. They reward patience and foresight. Without them , Eve would be a straightforward game about accumulating ISK to fly the best possible machariels or whatever.
QFT
I read the OP and wanted to say things, but others have already said them.
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Mi Lai
Under Influence
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Posted - 2007.03.27 07:05:00 -
[42]
I think Ander has a valid point, but dont aggree with any 'buffs' to newer players just yet.
I think the best way to deal with it by CCP is more content focussed on new(ish) players. It's nice seeing they keep adding new ships and concepts every now again, but (nearly?) all of them require a timesink, and is open to people that allready played for months, some content even for years. Nothing wrong with that, it gives you the reason to set some goals, and have things to look forward to, but please do try and add some stuff that is focussed on, or at least accessible to new, low skillpoint players.
The way it is now, I would advise new players to get a hang of the game for a couple of months, and then grind away to get the ISK to buy an old character....
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Sgt Blade
Save Yourself Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.27 07:26:00 -
[43]
for me when i first started i never saw compitition against Vets... why? cause i thought its better to have a challege now and then who cares if everyone is better then you... atleast you can give it a go at killing them and if you lsoe... not probs they are better hehe
my first few months of eve consisted of flyin a suicidal kessie into 0.0... probly couldnt do much yes but then again my first ever kill was against a stilleto against someone who had played for around over 1 1/2 years long.
if i was starting again now??? probly the same thing would happen ...
you jsut ahve to ermember that not everone in eve is cp,letely pvp oriented and that even if they can fly a bigger bader ship thn you.. they can still make mistakes/human error.
at the end of the day though i play eve casuse i can really sink into it and play for years on end.... i never liked 20-40 hour games where once you get so far taht is it... game over. in eve there will be somone in the game always better then you and that even though you cant catch up to them skill wise.. its possible to catch up to them in personal skill and tactics.
Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5 |
Jan Riksma
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2007.03.27 07:29:00 -
[44]
Its been said before in this thread eve is not about SP but RL skill/tactics and common sense.
We got a Dreadnought kill lastnight cause a 3 week old player found him and pinned him down.
Try to enjoy what you can already fly and fit and don't worry about what you cannot fly/fit yet. Figure out what you like most and plan accordingly. But i do know how you feel cause the content of eve is overwhelming.
Not all corperations have SP requirements. I know we don't have them but instead we only ask reverals. So the only people we let in the corp are either RL friends or in game friends we know for a long long time. Believe it or not atm we are low on tacklers and scouts wich can perfectly filled by younger/ low sp players.
My 2 cents,
Jan Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.27 09:20:00 -
[45]
Eve isn't about winning and losing. It isn't about the having the most leet character or the biggest ship.
It's about having fun.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 09:59:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Eve isn't about winning and losing. It isn't about the having the most leet character or the biggest ship.
It's about having fun.
QFT on the bold bit.
As far as newer folks are concerned the whole "3 year-v-new player" is a lot of baloney. Pilots can only fly one ship at a time (exception-multiple account dudes)....hence 3 year vet in a hauler can get blown by a new player or two--a lot depends on circumstances. A one-month pilot with decent frig skills and a bit of training can quickly contribute to any gang.
My recommendation would be to enjoy just playing the game for the first couple months and train the basic fun skills/support skills prior to going thru the learning skill grind (which ain't so bad now that advanced learning can be trained from L4 basic). This probably goes against most folks thinking but its a heckuva lot more fun to train Frig V than Learning V . Losing a month or so of grinding learning skills won't make that large a deal in the long term....and implants will help speed things along as well.
As far as 0.0 corps go the OP needs to check the recruitment area as there are plenty of corps willing to take on new folks and get them active and surviving quickly. I think the 5 million SP barrier presented by many corps is there just to keep trial accounts out and most organizations will make an exception if the pilot motivation and willingness to commit is apparent. A lot of the larger Alliance corps tend to run Empire-based training/eval sub-corps that prep new players for life in combat and 0.0.
At close to 8 months ingame I personally have yet to train BS (yeah...I could have BS 4/Large projectile 4 trained quickly if I felt like it...but I don't )....but then again I love flying the small ships. Outside of certain fleet actions a BS is not needed...even for 0.0 ratting which can be done comfortably-if sometimes slowly-in a BC, cruiser, or assault frigate.
Just my two isk...
"Lead me...Follow me...Or get the **** out of my way...." -General George Patton USA
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Mr Mozzie
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.03.27 10:23:00 -
[47]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone My recommendation would be to enjoy just playing the game for the first couple months and train the basic fun skills/support skills prior to going thru the learning skill grind
That is a really good way of looking at it.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.03.27 10:34:00 -
[48]
New players make awesome tacklers. A friend of mine has been ehre for 2 weeks and he loves his stabber.
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
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Roshan longshot
Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 10:48:00 -
[49]
This is a misunderstanding of both old and potental players, SP really does not count much. Sure it allows you to use 'special' mods, Bigger ships, and yes 'tech II'. But its not about skill points, but the heart to get out there and do somthing besides mining a roid.
A high sp character is no better then a boosted new character, except that high skill character is a 'jack of all trades, but master of none'. He can fly several types of ships, and on the average has a 35% increase on his weapons and mods. The biggest problem a high sp character has is that, low level character. Yeah you heard me, that low sp character. He has little to loose, he does not have a head full of implants, he does not have muti million isk clone to save, and he does not have a billion isk faction BS to worry about. That low level character can swoop in with a frigate or destroyer, that at the most cost what 5 million ISK? His clone is still in the low range of 900,000isk?
So in comes this noob that has been playing less then 2 months, and completly messes this expensive faction BS up. Now if the High SP character is lucky...this noob came alone. The High SP character has not completly screwed himself for a 'long range kit' set up. And after three or four minutes he finally gets this noob.
Now what fun is that? More of a disavantage if you ask me....
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.03.27 10:53:00 -
[50]
There are a few solutions to reduce the 'curve' effect between a new player and high sp player.
CCP already reduced it slightly by reducing the skill requirements for the adv learning skills (instead of basic lvl 5, you now only need lvl 4).
A question that should be asked, do they really need to? the op points out that it takes a while before a new player can fly a new ship, but at least you can fly a frigate and be useful within a week or so in a 0.0 gang as a tackler - sure your not as good as that guy flying an inty at 10km/s, nor are you flying T2 HAC's, but your 20km scrambler works just as well as his, and the skills for frigates are fairly quick to advance in.
However compare it to other games. If you go play WoW or Everquest etc, and a new player is useless for a much longer period of time than a high level player - a lvl 2 char, can't hope to group with the top levels for many months, in EvE thats not the case - while they can't fly the best T2 ships, a new eve player can fight alongside and fulfill a useful roll.
If the gap needs lessening and CCP want to get rid of some of the initial bordom suffered by new chars skill training, there are a few options that wouldn't have a huge impact on higher SP chars -:
- Removal of Learning skills completely - and set everyone to max.
- Add a multiplier which players under a set number of sp's are gained. e.g. 1.5x rate for SP's under 10 million etc.
Personally btw, I like things the way they are, I think people should have to put in some time to fly a T2 ship with sufficient support skills.
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Wendat Huron
Lupus Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.27 11:23:00 -
[51]
No more catering to noob crybabies, there has been enough compromizes already, they got the 800k skillpoint hike and as mentioned the learning skills bypass.
You're not going to get Titan capable inside a month, just deal with it, this isn't Clichequest where you can get twinked to the top and run around sporting epic tubesocks barely mastering the controls.
Put in the time, learn your place and work your way up, if you called yourself Lord Almighty and truly suck at the game for a year then that's a bad call on your part, nothing to blame the game for.
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Spaced Skunk
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.03.27 11:30:00 -
[52]
They should scrap learning skills, give use older players some free lvl 5s to make up for it.
Learning skills are a bore, and to be honest arent needed in the game. I think CCP would get a lot more people playing, if they could start training what they wanted from the beginning, and not have to be told in the Help channel, 'Train your learning skills up first'.
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Spaced Skunk
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.03.27 11:31:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Spaced Skunk on 27/03/2007 11:27:26 .
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Edgars Sults
LFC Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.03.27 11:48:00 -
[54]
There is no max SP level, maybe that is why it is hard to compare new players vs old ones. It's not like you can only get to lvl70 and that's it. You can never keep learning. Therefore the time to reach the level of an older player will never decrease. Just live with it.
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Tharim
Villains Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 11:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Lunfal Well you have to look at it this way. For eve 0.0 and allience warfare is eve's endgame. Quote:
Nope. For me, 0.0 and alliance warfare was the "middle" game. 0.0 alliances are the thing you think you want to do. After a while, you ralize that being in a 200man blob, sitting at a pos, taking orders from a brat, is crap crap crap crap and crap.
Then you start having fun. :P
Anyway. To get on topic. Dont care to much about your skills. Go out there and do what you find entertaining. There will allways be people that are lower skilled than you. Or just in smaller ships; or in the "wrong" ships. Take them out, laugh, and find another target.
If thats what you find entertaining that is.
In most other cases, you will have stuff that fits your skillpoints. Like different agent levels and belt rats.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 13:07:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Mr Mozzie
Originally by: RuleoftheBone My recommendation would be to enjoy just playing the game for the first couple months and train the basic fun skills/support skills prior to going thru the learning skill grind
That is a really good way of looking at it.
The problem is that new players are told to "grind learning or you'll screw yourself later". Utter horsepucky
Individual mileage may vary....but paying to log on, change learning skills, and logging off until some mythical learning threshold is reached becomes silly. I went down the "alternate one cool/fun skill with one drudge learning skill route"...but which is more FUN to have....Learning V or Frigate V?
I think the learning system is just fine. It's about choice and patience and that works fine for me. No buffs needed.
Interesting discussion anyway....
"Lead me...Follow me...Or get the **** out of my way...." -General George Patton USA
UKC |
Amphetaminer
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Posted - 2007.03.27 13:44:00 -
[57]
Eve's good side is also its bad side. thing is in other mmorpg's you can catch up with others by playing alot of time/working hard etc. But in eve half the time you are just waiting for a skill to finish u can do fairly little to make it go faster. Waiting 30days till skill x is done so u can fly in ship y is quite boring. Many people want to compete with others online here you can only compete by having an older acc?
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Marc deBourgogne
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Posted - 2007.03.27 14:33:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Marc deBourgogne on 27/03/2007 14:33:52 Edited by: Marc deBourgogne on 27/03/2007 14:32:01 Look at this nullhttp://ineve.net/skills/character.php?charID=OTU4ODYyNjI2 so called uber vet.
Now look closer.
You see a PvP/PVE player with minimum mining skills and developped trade skills to sell the loot. Production skills are minimum, just to be able to build amo in 0.0 myself. 3 years ago caldari was good for PvP hence the well developped missile and EW skills that I don't use any more as Gallente became the way to go in PvP. So I started investing in the drone skills that I use today. The amarr part is mainly for PvE, Except the skills for the Pilgrim, as this is the only way to solo today imo. Today I'm spending all my SP in Capital ships as this is what alliances expect from their vet players.
Would you be scared meeting me in a frig, (Battle)cruiser or even a BS ? Don't think so, the main difference is the fact that we are more allround and survived a wellknown persons' nerfbat a few times.
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PhalHell
Minmatar Rome SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 14:42:00 -
[59]
The above is my alt and i screwed the reply. I would appreciate a mod to fix the link
The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my corps, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 15:14:00 -
[60]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 27/03/2007 15:11:58
Originally by: Amphetaminer Eve's good side is also its bad side. thing is in other mmorpg's you can catch up with others by playing alot of time/working hard etc. But in eve half the time you are just waiting for a skill to finish u can do fairly little to make it go faster. Waiting 30days till skill x is done so u can fly in ship y is quite boring. Many people want to compete with others online here you can only compete by having an older acc?
This is actually funny...did you read the entire thread?
I don't mean to laugh at you as I have not tried any other MMO's...but spending 8 hours doing the chicken dance or gardening fumferols just to "level up" belongs in serious munchkin land far FAR away from EvE. Bleah....total suck. For those with a real life outside games (there must be one or two about) the "train while AFG" is perfect....
Stop eating at McDonalds (the land of instant fulfillment) and enjoy the sense of accomplishment from finishing Prop Jam V....then you too can anchor large bubbles and forget to take them down
"Lead me...Follow me...Or get the **** out of my way...." -General George Patton USA
UKC |
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Roshan longshot
Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 16:17:00 -
[61]
Let me add somthing else to this thread...
Multi million SP characters (like myself) will no dought be called primary. While the 1-3 million SP character will be one of the last to get targeted in a fleet op.
I call that a disavantage also....
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Amphetaminer
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Posted - 2007.03.27 16:19:00 -
[62]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 27/03/2007 15:11:58
Stop eating at McDonalds (the land of instant fulfillment) and enjoy the sense of accomplishment from finishing Prop Jam V....then you too can anchor large bubbles and forget to take them down
and why would i feel accomplishment for finishing a skill while all i did was push train skill and wait xx amount of time? in other mmorpgs yes you grind hard to gain xp but then when u get something you worked for it! you didnt just wait till it finished.. But i agree with you this should not come to eve... people who play 24/7 will get the upper hand and people with lives get the short stick. But sometimes it does get to me that i cant speed up my training or catch up with the vet players :)
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Jenson Cole
Red Dagger Fleet
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Posted - 2007.03.27 16:34:00 -
[63]
While I did not agree with the increase of skill points for new characters (Being a 3 year old player) the pirate friends I have just shrugged and like many have stated in this thread "The Newbs just are provideing us Bigger Ships to Blow Up."
I went the hard way Started with Frigate went to Destroyer, Cruiser, Battlecruiser and then Battleship as I went through the march of ship riseing. Know what? I STILL recommend this path for Players in my corporation. Reason being is if you "Fast Track" your way to Battleship you won't be able to do half the stuff an Experienced Player can do and your ship is effectively Gimped.
Ever see someone running around with a Battleship running Medium or Small Weapons? I can tell you now Pirates will get a good laugh as they blow your ship to Kingdom Come and leaves the new player crying they lost a 100 million isk investment along with there "Leet" Ship Setup that didn't hold up for more than 10 seconds vs a Pirate who knows what they're doing and you expect to survive in 0.0?
Now the Learning Grind. It's there to serve as an optional path for Players to use. You've got the option to train these skils and if you're complaining about the Learning Grind being to much and being the "First Thing that you HAVE to Do once you join EVE before you can be effective in a Ship" then you're wrong.
I recommend the Learning Training for my guys and tell them to wait until they're comfortable with flying a Cruiser before trainning these skills and once they get the skills going train Learning to 5 and all the sub skills to 4. If this is to much that's what Cybernetics are for. There are Attribute Enhanceing Implants ranging from +1 to +5 in EVE. Go for them if you don't want to grind the Learning.
With most of the new character bonuses due to SP increase you start off with some of the Learning Skills. I have an alt who started with the following.
Learning I Spatial Awareness II Iron Will IV
Attributes: 9-3-12-10-11
Skill Points: 807,605
Learning Skill Trainning would be done in 18 days and the benifits are instant.
That is nothing. Try looking at Battleship 5.
Those wanting instant gratification WoW and all the other MMO's offer that. EVE you have to work for your goals.
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MrTripps
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.27 16:43:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Nyabinghi Whatever profession you want to take on be sure there are many thousands who are doing it far more efficiently and effectively than you, trading and combat being two very good examples.
Sure there will always be someone better at X, but Eve is a big place. There are massive amounts of territory just sitting out there. Even a low sp character can find a profitable niche. Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. - Janis Joplin |
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