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Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:09:00 -
[1]
Here's a discussion I had with a fellow UO-player a couple of minutes ago:
----------------------- Gottfried (BoC) (09:58 PM) : 'Ey Lex Lex (10:00 PM) : yo Gottfried (BoC) (10:01 PM) : How's it hangin? Lex (10:01 PM) : playing eve 4tw Gottfried (BoC) (10:01 PM) : Nice. Gottfried (BoC) (10:01 PM) : I would play that game if it wasn't so long term Gottfried (BoC) (10:02 PM) : When yous tart that game, you are so incredibly out classed it's ridiculous Lex (10:02 PM) : nah Gottfried (BoC) (10:02 PM) : *shrug* Gottfried (BoC) (10:02 PM) : Age of Conan is my savior Gottfried (BoC) (10:02 PM) : Untill then, Pootang. ----------------
So what do I tell this player? To specialize and focus on one field? Many players want to be able to play a broad part of the game.
I mean, it's alright if the difference is something like: -------------> --->
But with some people having skills at 60 or 70mill SP
-------------------------------------> (Veteran) > New player)
The differance is just too great at times.
I think CCP need to make another boost for new players, and perhaps buff some of the players who have had accounts since day 1 but recently returned. That's another point I've seen where players used to play EVE but are reluctant to return cause their old characters are just helplessly behind in skilltraining when new characters start at higher points.
Any ideas from the fellow EVE-Online community?
EVE Online - Pirates |
Haakon Jarl
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:11:00 -
[2]
Some people can't be saved.
In it for the state |
Rhaegor Stormborn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:13:00 -
[3]
Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
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Maam
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
Then don't start off in a "good long standing corp in a large alliance"! Work your way toward it if that's what you want. There are always roles in corps for lower SP characters, tackling etc. Don't run for your first battleship ... take it easy and aim for Assault Frigates first while you are learning the game. Still pack a punch, hard enough to kill, and a heck of a lot cheaper to buy and fit than a battleship.
You think drivers pass their L-Test and just step up to a Formula 1 car and start driving for the best team on day 1?
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Gerog
Gallente Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
It don't take 6 months to be part of pvp. If you have a fair decent sized gang, you can always fit a frigate with a warp scram and/or webber. Add to that a MWD and you got yourself a tackler. It don't take too long to train up until you get your bc, bs or whatever you want to pwn people in. Tacklers are needed in fleet and in gangs and they are inexpensive. Bigger ship doesn't always mean better. Gerog |
Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:22:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Maam
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
Then don't start off in a "good long standing corp in a large alliance"! Work your way toward it if that's what you want. There are always roles in corps for lower SP characters, tackling etc. Don't run for your first battleship ... take it easy and aim for Assault Frigates first while you are learning the game. Still pack a punch, hard enough to kill, and a heck of a lot cheaper to buy and fit than a battleship.
You think drivers pass their L-Test and just step up to a Formula 1 car and start driving for the best team on day 1?
Thing is. I think there are many good players who feel limited by the slow training times when they start as a totally new player.
Sure, you can gather ISK and buy a better char but that doesnt really solve the problem + you need to know about the possibility of buying chars as a new player.
EVE Online - Pirates |
Maam
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ander Sure, you can gather ISK and buy a better char but that doesnt really solve the problem + you need to know about the possibility of buying chars as a new player.
Even now, I'd rather start from scratch with a player of my own, knowing I'd nurtured her / him from the very start, rather than buy another character. I'd class that the same as buying second hand shoes or underpants. I know I can do it, but wouldn't want to!
It might seem slow to begin with, but you have all the skills laid out at your feet, and you have the fun of deciding which of Eve's many paths you can walk. Skills you can get to lvl 3 in half a day to a day.
IMO most new players make the mistake of thinking it's a race into the battleship and then they win Eve.
Tell your mates I'm more scared of a fast AF coming towards me to put a couple of points on me, than I am scared of the BC or BS sitting 50km away.
The only real pain in Eve in the early days or me was not being able to even fit a lot of modules, let alone use them efficiently.
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Haakon Jarl
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:31:00 -
[8]
Slow training time? New players start of with nearly a millon sp for crying out loud.
In it for the state |
Dop Sutol
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:36:00 -
[9]
As a new player it is hard to get into Alliance/PvP-combat Corp play. Most PvP corps have min requirements that are pretty high, like 10 million SP. I'm 3 months old and have a little over 3.5, my alt who is just training learning skills has a little over 4.5 million. Now, these 10 million SP requirements do have a purpose:
I took a third alt of mine (Yes I have 3 accounts, hey I love Eve) and brought my char up to Level 3 in all the flying, combat, and ship skills my character need. I then joined an alliance a friend from a previous game was a part of and found out why you need the 10 million SP.
Friend: "Set up your rifter like this for BS tackling" Me: Ah, I can't, I'm short on PG....
Friend: "OK, set up a WD scrambler with this, this, and this." Me: OK, but I can't fit anything in my high slots now...
Basically I could not set up my ship in a way that would be effective for PvP, I just did not have enough skills. I think it is going to take a half of a year total, until I can add something to PvP. And that is the problem 100% combat focused n00bies will have with Eve. Luckily, I learned to love resource harvesting in SWG, so I have no REAL problems with Eve.
BTW- It really sucks leaving a friend's alliance, you feel like you let em down.
How to solve the issue? Halve the training time on all skills. Veterans benefit because those long ass skills take less time to learn and noobs benifit because they can enter the Eve PvP combat community that much quicker. (I know I will get flamed for that, let it be said that I do not need the training time halved, I like Eve as is... Thank you.)
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:42:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Soporo on 26/03/2007 20:42:33 Rhaegor Stormborn, I suggest going down to the recruitment forum. There are a lot of other 0.0 Corps that take low skill point people. Only real rule a lot have is, "don't be a tard."
Also, I was aiming at a bs myself, among other things, till I jumped in a new Battlecruiser, now you cant pry me out of my Drake, you can pod me maybe, but not pry me.
I know a guy whos 2 years old in-game and still flys nothing but frigates and other light stuff, though he could step into a Command Ship if he so chose.
But yeah, to a degree I feel like you do sometimes, and I've been in for 5-6 months, I suspect that feeling will always remain, every time you encounter someone flying some uber sh*t thats out of your league.
To Dop, I dunno man, the Goons wouldnt be so damn big and nasty if that was totally true.
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:53:00 -
[11]
I think its fine just the way it is.
Many months ago before you new people started, we had it much harder: implants were very expensive, skill requirements were higher (so we basicly trained some skills for nothing).
So we realy did work for our sp. I was also worried that I had started a mmorpg that had players that were 2-3 years older than me. Dont let it bother you just enjoy the game for what it is the freedom to do what you want!
Another point is that when vets fly a ship they only use a certain percentage of thier sp, so having uber skill points in battelships and large guns and everything else that they have isnt going to help at all when flying a smaller ship. |
Wild Rho
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:54:00 -
[12]
The simple truth is Eve won't be for everyone.
They'll either like what it as to offer and invest the time into playing more of it or they won't. Little point in trying to force it on someone.
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Aleria Angelis
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2007.03.26 20:54:00 -
[13]
Theres loads of PvP corps that will take players with only 1 mill SP *points to link in siggie* the ones that ask for 10m SP are the Elite PvP corps, no you cant expect to be an elite player after only 3 months. EVEs a complex game, not only are you training your skills your also learning about the game, Ive been around for 2 years now and theres still stuff I dont know, if Id simply brought a char they'd be alot more I didnt know
Sorry to have another bash at WoW but its games like that, where everyones in a rush to get to level 60 as soon as posible that make EVE look slow.
GEPT opens its doors! |
Lunfal
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:13:00 -
[14]
Well you have to look at it this way. For eve 0.0 and allience warfare is eve's endgame.
Saying that you want to do that off the bat is like saying that you want to do lvl 70 raid instences in your first week of playing World of warcraft. (it takes you a month or two to get to 70, then that amount to get the equipment needed for raiding)
That being said eve offers alot to new players, and it's not like you have to sit on your butt and wait for 0.0 to open up. He can still participate in empire wars and do some of many other things eve has to offer.
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Cloora
APEX Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:21:00 -
[15]
This is what I tell all new or potential new players to this game that are put off by the skill system.
The law of diminishing returns.
It takes less time to train a skill from level 0 to level 4 as it does to go from 4 to 5. Yet the bonues are 4 times greater for the former.
New players catch up fast.
Old players are basically training skills in other fields or extreme advanced skills (Titans?) to have something to do.
Characters with 20 million + SP started in combat and now are training stuff to try exploration or production. New characters can't expect to do that. That is the price to pay.
But if you are a good player and a smart player you can make your character with much less SP work VERY effectivly in combat (and other things) and compete with the vets.
I have only 3.5 million SP and I already command the respect of older players in given situations. And I have only been playing since November.
Tell your friend this and tell them they are missing out on the best MMO ever. ======================================== Production Assistant of APEX Unlimited
I don't want to be forced to Jet Can mine or buy a hauler alt to mine effectivly. BIGGER CARGO HOLDS IN BARGES NOW! |
sakana
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:25:00 -
[16]
get rid of the learning skills, boost new players starting attributes?
a lot of current players will whine that this therefore isnt fair on them, but we've all been through it, so haud yer wheest! ------------
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Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:31:00 -
[17]
When you take an honest look at this game it's really not meant for new players at this stage.
That's about the simplest view of things. --- Be true to your work, your word, and your friend. Henry David Thoreau |
EntroX
Caldari El Fugel Corp
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ander Here's a discussion I had with a fellow UO-player a couple of minutes ago:
I mean, it's alright if the difference is something like: -------------> --->
But with some people having skills at 60 or 70mill SP
-------------------------------------> (Veteran) > New player)
The difference is much easier than you think, just like any MMORPG the LVL 1 character (or low SP) doesn't stand a chance solo against the LVL X (insert level there) for obvious reasons, but this isn't any stupid level based game, here there are roles that have to be filled in order to do actions, I'd rather have 5 noobs in frigates as tacklers than 1 uber guy with lots of sp.
The problem with eve is finding your role, if you know what you want you have to work out your path untill you get there, thats the way i saw it when i started and its the excuse that i use to keep getting people to play :P
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Calamitty
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:46:00 -
[19]
i dont think new players should be thrust into PVP right off the bat,
while your waiting for your 3-5 mil SP until you can seriously do hurt, a NEW PLAYER will learn how the rest of the game works
flying around, gathering minirals, fighting dud NPC's etc, learning the basics, by the time they level to a good enough position they would have learned the basic skill set they need to be a good player.
what good is 10m SP if you dont know how to do ANYTHING??
i think the game is setup perfectly, its simply not set up for everybody.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Requiem of Hades
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:51:00 -
[20]
Show them how warm and fuzzy eVe-O forum is that tells them PvP is not about massing skill points? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
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Kasilof
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:56:00 -
[21]
Pretty new player here about 3 months. I really like EVE and will keep playing it but the training is really slow. The biggest turn off is learning skills. You gotta have them so the first month or two is spent mostly training stuff so you can learn stuff. I almost quit the game over this. A friend started the same time I did he quit because he wanted to play and felt like he was just waiting on the clock.
I would recommend that CCP do away with learing skills or make them an added benifit from training other essentail skills. Of course if they do away with them and grant new players the attributes they would have to compensate older players that learned them with more SP.
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Dranearian
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:26:00 -
[22]
I have about 1.8 million skillpoints.
I am in a 0.0 corp/alliance. I pvp regularly. I knew none of them prior to this game.
I also get told every gang that those of us with low skillpoints shouldn't be discouraged, because the ships we are flying are vital to the gang.
By having us running frigates with webs/scrams it allows those with the skillpoints to be in a more specialized ship. I would like to see a lot of the battleships function without a tackler. It works, just not nearly as well.
You may not have many Skillpoints, but you can still hop into a merlin and fit to speed-lock those shuttles and scram em :)
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Strel Samodelkin
Caldari Nationalist Party
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:29:00 -
[23]
Tell him to write a letter to CCP.
CEO Caldari Nationalist Party http://www.eve-caldari.com Eve Online tips now available! Go to the link above! |
Maam
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:35:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Maam on 26/03/2007 22:32:00 All new players should remember, like learner drivers, all the experienced people have been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
I did the learning skills, couldn't fit **** due to grid or CPU issues for the first few months.
Didn't stop me playing and learning. I wasn't uber leet then, and still am not.
You think waiting for skill trains to finish is boring at the start? I waited 40 days for Gallente BS 5 to finish, and now I fly mainly Caldari!
Stick with it, do whatever is within your capabilities, and play on through.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Alektorophobia
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Worst part for me, as a new player, is that I basically have to wait 6 months until I am ready to play the game I would like to play. I bought Eve so I could participate in 0.0 alliance warfare and to get into a good long standing corp in a large alliance it seems you need at least 3 million skill points, and many times 10 million. So for now, I sit in empire, run an occasional mission and wait until I can fly a well fitted Battleship.
There are many important roles that can be filled with lower sp characters. For example tackling, EW and various other support roles. Yes, training for primary damage dealer takes time, but it is faster than ever thanks to the wonderful Rokhs, that enable you to reach to sniper BS ranges with T1 guns and contribute your part in that role too... Just contact your FC when he is not busy, and he will propably be more than happy to discuss how you can best contribute.
As for getting into good corps. Look through the recruiting forums and see if there is anything that you like there, or just apply to a corp that does pvp training for new players. Most large alliances have training corporations for possible new players, or if Eve University, or agony unleashed are still around, it's worth a shot applying. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Mogrin
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Posted - 2007.03.26 23:09:00 -
[26]
What are you to say? Hes absolutely right, eve is for long-term or you are wasting your time. Other games you can get the grind out of the way and then do what you want without much of a disadvantage. Can't say that about eve.
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Nymos
Fimbulvintr
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Posted - 2007.03.26 23:20:00 -
[27]
yup there are 0.0 corps that take low sp pilots. that's how they get loyal recruits instead of corp hoppers if they make an experienced player out of a noob.
it's true, you can't fit real good setups, but is that important? i mean, even if you could fit a setup with maxed fitting skills would that really make a huge difference? tbh, a noob who just raced to his battleship and invested all his little isk he had can't properly fly it and in no way he can replace it (this is an important point, income).
battleships do need high end fitting skills, good cap skills and good weapon skills to make them rock. else the tank will break way fast and its damage will suck and not really worth the investment. skills at lvl3 won't do it with a BS, interceptors and assault frigs are very useful ships. ceptors are fairly cheap too. and a good ceptor pilot can make a difference. can never have enough of them.
eve has a long learning curve. you'd miss out the fun of learning (the game, not the SP) if you could start way ahead. and btw new players start with 800k+ SP. they get lvl5 skills at character creation! this skill system keeps people playing. there's always something you want to train even with 40m sp. other games live from content upgrades which is just more of the same. eve lives from the deep skill system and the player involvement.
play for a year which is when you will have a really solid set of skills and you'll feel that the waiting paid off. it'll give you some achievement. eve isn't for everyone. you love it or hate it. it requires patience, nothing can be rushed in eve at all. everquest 2 tried to cater for everyone and it sucks accordingly. --
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.26 23:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ander But with some people having skills at 60 or 70mill SP
-------------------------------------> (Veteran) > New player)
The differance is just too great at times.
The difference is not so bad as it may seem. Remember this is not a level based game where you need to have 60 mil SP to do anything.
If you want to be an uberleet miner you can probably pull that off with something like 12 million SP. With 5-6 mil SP you can be a pretty decent frig pilot. For those getting ready to quibble over my numbers don't bother...just illustration. The point is that the guy with 60 mil SP can probably mine with the best of them, fly a carrier, fly every race's battleships (and probably most ships in the game) and do research and build. So, while that guy can fly all four races battleships with MUCH less training you can fly one race's battleship just as well. A few things are exceedingly long to get to (Command Ships, Cap Ships and such) but there is still plenty a lower SP character can do.
Further, unlike WOW, you can be useful at low levels. People love having suicidal frig tacklers with them and it is fun to do. If you want a mining corp you can start helping with hauling as you work up to a good mining ship in not so much time. 60 mil SP guy may have been training for 4 years but he can't mine any better than you could with several months of work.
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syphurous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.26 23:27:00 -
[29]
I'm sorry, you want Eve to be more like Wow ? Easy ?
Its the training times that use to sort out the men from the boys ( Girls - Ladies ), since they gave more sp at start up I've noticed a total loss of maturity in my NPC corp ( mine included :P ) Having to deal with whining kiddes because their ship went pop and they lost all their expensive fittings, only to find out they lost a rookie ship with the dropped loot from the training ships fitted. I'm only at 7.6 mil SP and I dont feel I'm behind anyone, I'll take on a titan single handed ! I'll get a vacum bath in space, but its not like I didn't have a fighting chance ( the pilot could be AFK or DC with aggro :P ).
You have to work for everything in life, why should Eve be any different ?
You dont need to join a corp to experience the game, plently of us in the N00b corps get into the action. ______________________________
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Nyabinghi
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.03.27 00:00:00 -
[30]
Things have gotten better for new players with the million skillpoint starter kit. As far as how many skillpoints you need to get along in the universe it depends on what you want to do. EVE is however becoming increasingly cut throat. Whatever profession you want to take on be sure there are many thousands who are doing it far more efficiently and effectively than you, trading and combat being two very good examples. Add to that isk farmers and well I don't envy the new player's position at all.
And yes there are Alliances that take on low skillpoint players. It's called the Meat Shield Initiative. ***
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