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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 10:04:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 17/02/2007 10:04:39 Something other than Jump Gates
This thread is a companion to another thread, here. When reading this thread, please keep the entire idea in mind and not the weakness or strength of any one particular part. I won't claim to have seen all the angles or foreseen all the problems.
The purpose of this idea is three fold. First, to help reduce the need for blobs and help reduce lag. Secondly, to make space feel more like space, and less like big rooms. And lastly, to encourage players to take more over all risk, by reducing the risk of gate camps.
First, consider a new form of travel between solar systems. Call it a mini-cyno, fast-warp, trans-warp, whatever. Any of these would suffice as the method, the implementation could be the same for all. I will use the term trans-warp.
The main part of the idea, as stated is the trans-warp. When a player wants to move to another solar system, he would engage the trans-warp, which would then move him to the desired destination.
The trans-warp would not use fuel as cynos do, but instead use the capacitor of the traveling ship. The amount of capacitor used would depend on distance and mass. (The skill, "Trans-Warp drive Operation" (Intelligence and Perception) would reduce the amount of cap used by 5% per level.)
This would require an update to the map. How far is it between Jita and Sobaseki anyway? This would need to be known and the Autopilot would make its calculations based upon this new data and not its current data set of adjacency by jump gate. What may be adjacent systems today, because of gates, may not be adjacent systems under this new system. Also, a player might be able to "hop over" some systems, if the player happened to be in a tight star cluster, had enough cap and not too much mass.
There is of course more to this. Time, aggression and piracy and evasion. Each is addressed in the sections below.
Cont ...
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 10:05:00 -
[2]
Trans-Warp walk through
In brief, calculate jump, align, jump, travel, and arrive at destination.
The time it takes to trans-warp between two systems should not be more than three minutes. About the same amount of time it takes to travel across a system now. When the player would initiates a trans-warp, what would happen is that the "jump computer" would start to make its calculation. This calculating would take about 90 seconds. (The Skill "Jump Calculation" (Intelligence and Memory) would reduce this time by 10% per level.)
While the jump computer is making its calculations, the player may warp around the system as usual. However, if the player docks, enters a POS field or cloaks, the calculation is aborted. Calculations can not be started while docked, in a POS field or cloaked. A completed calculation will only stay viable for 30 seconds. So, a player can't jump into a system, start a calculation, attack someone, loot them and poof away instantly. Nor can a miner jump in, start his calculation, mine for an hour and trans-warp away at a whim.
Once the calculation is completed, the player is notified and clicks the "trans warp" button. The ship will align the same as it does for a normal warp. When the ships is aligned, the trans-warp begins. Ships can not trans-warp out from a bubble. They must escape a bubble as they do today. If Autopilot is enabled, the calculation would start as soon as a player enabled AP, and AP would jump as soon as the calculation was completed. When the player arrives at the destination, AP would cycle and do the next jump.
Then, when the ship is in trans-warp, the player will see a graphic similar to today's warp graphic, but more intense and perhaps with stars zipping by instead of moons and planets like we see today. The duration of the trans-warp will depend on the distance being traveled, and the speed of the ship (just as freighters today warp much slower than interceptors.) The total time, from start to finish, should not be much more than it is today. Time sinks 4TL.
When the player comes out of trans-warp and arrives at the system, the player is dropped at a random location in the system, not more than 1 AU from the local star (seeing as the gravity of the star bends all trans-warp tunnels ... or something.) Not only is the player at a random location within 1 AU of the local star, but the player's alignment is also random as well, no instant zipping off to some safe spot. If the player is in a gang, then the whole gang arrives at the same location and will have the same alignment. (Also for gangs, when in a gang, only the commanders need to do the calculations, and the commander can start the trans-warp for all players in his command - though only players in the same grid will jump, just as gang warp today.)
Piracy and Counter measures.
Two new things will need to exist.
First, all ships will have a new mode on the system scanner. That mode allows for the locating of ships within a 2 AU sphere. The scanner takes 30 seconds to activate/return results and the accuracy is a base 120km, (+/- 10 to 20km for balance). Existing skills (Astrometrics, Pinpointing, Signal Acquisition, et alia, would apply.) Recon and Covert Ops ships would have bonuses as well. In essence, a built-in 2 AU recon probe for all ships.
Cont ... |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 10:06:00 -
[3]
Second, Interceptor ships, both T1 (condor for example) and T2, can use a new type of ammunition called a "Trans Warp Bomb" (High slot). These ships can scan for active trans-warp signatures, using the system scanner, and jump into the trans-warp tunnel with another ship(s), they can drop the bomb, which breaks the tunnel, and drops all ships from the tunnel to random locations around the local star, just as if those ships had arrived normally. The interceptor and the bombed ship may not land at the same place, in fact most likely will not and should not (For gangs, if a gang is bombed, the gang members are all dropped at random locations around the star and do not arrive at the same location. The gang/fleet still exists, they just get scattered around and have to regroup.)
The chances of a successful interception would be 100%, but the chances for successfully interrupting a tunnel would be based on the interceptor pilot's Astrometric skill and the new skill "Trans Warp Bomb" (Perception and Intelligence). 10% for per each level, in each skill, for 100% effectiveness at lvl 5 in both skills.
Two important notes - A bombed player gets agro - So no getting bombed and logging off. You got intercepted, deal with it. Also, if bombed, cloaking can not be done for 60 seconds.
The counter to being trans-warped bombed is run or fight. Since a jump calculation can not be started when cloaked, and a cloak does not work when intercepted, and agro is started, this should stop "carebears" from griefing "pirates". And since carebears and pirates are not in the same spot -this should stop "pirates" from greifing "carebears". Some balance issues will need to be addressed as far as time and distances on the 2 AU scanner, but that should not be too difficult to change once the system was in place.
For fleet blobs - This system will change the nature of combat to a degree. Scouting will become more important and scattering forces will be come a valid tactic. Blobbing my still occur at POS and outposts, but recent Dev logs seem to have some ideas about that, so will leave that to them.
Fin
-AS |
ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 10:47:00 -
[4]
Strangely I like this idea very much.
Good stuff matey.
But the only thing I can think is the "trans-warp bomb", a tad (only possibly) overpowered. too much like an interdictor should be.
Apart from that, me likey. Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing
Funny, i'm still here - Petwraith
There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus
pwnt - Immy!!!11 |
hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.17 10:50:00 -
[5]
the trans warp bomb sounds like a good idea
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Minuz1
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.17 11:15:00 -
[6]
a) can't fit a cloaking module when trans warping... b) when intercepted by the very much unused stealth bombers they drop at a station or random gate in system...dropping off randomly would be stupid since systems are bigger then 2000*2000 AU's in size. The Tech 2 Lottery is rigged, In my favor!
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 11:19:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 17/02/2007 11:26:32
Originally by: Minuz1 a) can't fit a cloaking module when trans warping... b) when intercepted by the very much unused stealth bombers they drop at a station or random gate in system...dropping off randomly would be stupid since systems are bigger then 2000*2000 AU's in size.
Intercepted players would drop randomly within a 1 AU spehere of the local star. The defending players would then activate their built-in 2 AU scanner and warp to the resultant target(s).
If this were a fleet enagement, all sorts of fun chaos would ensue. If the lone traveler and pirates, it would be a bit of cat and mouse. Intelligence and decisive action would win. -AS |
ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 11:23:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Minuz1 a) can't fit a cloaking module when trans warping... b) when intercepted by the very much unused stealth bombers they drop at a station or random gate in system...dropping off randomly would be stupid since systems are bigger then 2000*2000 AU's in size.
Intercepted players would drop randomly within a 1 AU spehere of the local star. The defending players would then activate their built-in 2 AU scanner and jump to the resultant target(s).
If this were a fleet enagement, all sorts of fun chaos would ensue. If the lone traveler and pirates, it would be a bit of cat and mouse. Intelligence and decisive action would win.
And that my freinds is what we need (I want really). Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing
Funny, i'm still here - Petwraith
There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus
pwnt - Immy!!!11 |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 11:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ThaMa Gebir Strangely I like this idea very much.
Good stuff matey.
Thanks
Originally by: ThaMa Gebir
But the only thing I can think is the "trans-warp bomb", a tad (only possibly) overpowered. too much like an interdictor should be.
The bomb breaks the trans warp tunnel only and would be most effective in breaking up fleet blobs. In most cases, capcitor cost being high enough, most players won't be hopping over systems anyway.
But you do make me think of something I've not considered, and that would be that interceptors should only be allowed to bomb hopping and arriving trans-warps and not intercept outbound warps ... which makes sense, considering the speeds involved.
-AS |
ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 11:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Minuz1 a) can't fit a cloaking module when trans warping... b) when intercepted by the very much unused stealth bombers they drop at a station or random gate in system...dropping off randomly would be stupid since systems are bigger then 2000*2000 AU's in size.
Granted but if said person was to drop out randomnly next to a normally warp-to-able object (please no moons that is just asking for trouble) then there are plenty of exits and too many to camp, like the old (I have only heard horror of the jips) way.
I like this idea. Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing
Funny, i'm still here - Petwraith
There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus
pwnt - Immy!!!11 |
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Draxxxion
GIT-R-DUN Southern Connection
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Posted - 2007.02.17 11:53:00 -
[11]
Love this idea, This very concept has been on my mind awhile,[inspired by starwars] Nav computers plotted courses to systems,this could take minutes or seconds,depending on distances.Then Trans-Warp. Glad someone typed it down.Brilliant.Wish it was implemented now.
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ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 12:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: ThaMa Gebir Strangely I like this idea very much.
Good stuff matey.
Thanks
Originally by: ThaMa Gebir
But the only thing I can think is the "trans-warp bomb", a tad (only possibly) overpowered. too much like an interdictor should be.
The bomb breaks the trans warp tunnel only and would be most effective in breaking up fleet blobs. In most cases, capcitor cost being high enough, most players won't be hopping over systems anyway.
But you do make me think of something I've not considered, and that would be that interceptors should only be allowed to bomb hopping and arriving trans-warps and not intercept outbound warps ... which makes sense, considering the speeds involved.
I agree to a certain extent, but that role should be given to an interdictor if anything, at least name wise. Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing
Funny, i'm still here - Petwraith
There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus
pwnt - Immy!!!11 |
Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.17 12:11:00 -
[13]
i always thought a pretty cool idea would be a mini-jump drive with limited range where you could target stars and jump to them if in range *****ble on any ship by size. But then people would say it would be impossible to kill anyone just jumping from one system to the next, perhaps if it had a cool down and a fuel consumption as well and increases your signature for probing.
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Elenit
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Posted - 2007.02.17 12:16:00 -
[14]
Post from another tread (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477528&page=1):
Quote: What about having a POS module or mobile Jump Gate generator. The principle has already been introduced with Titans.
The module would be anchored in space (outside the POS Shields) and require a number of ships (logistics is a good category) to power it. The module would take some time to anchor/online/offline/unanchor. The module comes in different sizes and requires an amount of energy to activate it and to maintain the tunnel.
The module would be bi-directional - allowing those in the target system to come down the tunnel to destroy the module.
If you want to make it "more" interesting - then follow the principles behind player outposts. You construct a module egg, to take the egg to a location and convert the egg to a portal generator with building materials. The object becomes a semi-perm object around a moon/planet. Add in an activation delay - so when it runs out of power - it needs x hours to cool down (apply the "Heat" principle and reactivating before it's cooled down with a % of chance of dmg).
The module would have no natural defences and would require a presence (players) to defend it.
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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.17 12:24:00 -
[15]
Anyone thats seen me post on this kinda issue before knows i advocate the full removal of star gates for a more manual form of inter system travel basically take the warp system we have now duplicate it but allow more direct control such as the ability to throttle down mid warp and stop in the middle of nowhere.
Where system to system travel in the same constellation takes 4-5 minutes, Constellation to Constellation travel takes 30 minutes or so, and region to region travel takes around 4-5 hours but for region to region but has the option of logging out and it will continue to your destination then log off or you can slave you ship to another person (someone like a fleet leader possible expansion for gang system) and they can take you beyond the current destination. Sorta like convoy travel.
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/ |
ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 12:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ToxicFire Anyone thats seen me post on this kinda issue before knows i advocate the full removal of star gates for a more manual form of inter system travel basically take the warp system we have now duplicate it but allow more direct control such as the ability to throttle down mid warp and stop in the middle of nowhere.
Where system to system travel in the same constellation takes 4-5 minutes, Constellation to Constellation travel takes 30 minutes or so, and region to region travel takes around 4-5 hours but for region to region but has the option of logging out and it will continue to your destination then log off or you can slave you ship to another person (someone like a fleet leader possible expansion for gang system) and they can take you beyond the current destination. Sorta like convoy travel.
Ok, that's an idea but I also believe that if you had to travel through the systems like normal just certain jump off points or such would make it perfectly believeable.
Log off mid-_ber-warp is a bit too much. But that's just me. Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing
Funny, i'm still here - Petwraith
There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus
pwnt - Immy!!!11 |
Stakhanov
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.17 12:35:00 -
[17]
How are alliances supposed to defend their territory with this ?
Send a few cyno alts in T1 frigates to transwarp into enemy system , warp to a few belts , transwarp to next system , repeat until you reach HQ , scatter in system and make a few safespots , drop cyno fields , jump fleet , win.
Ships dropping in empty space can be easily impossible to catch. I don't know about ships that take more than 30 seconds to align to warp... basically , anyone could get in and get out no matter how badly people in system want to catch said intruders.
I think warp to 0 made things easy enough...
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ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 12:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Stakhanov How are alliances supposed to defend their territory with this ?
Send a few cyno alts in T1 frigates to transwarp into enemy system , warp to a few belts , transwarp to next system , repeat until you reach HQ , scatter in system and make a few safespots , drop cyno fields , jump fleet , win.
Ships dropping in empty space can be easily impossible to catch. I don't know about ships that take more than 30 seconds to align to warp... basically , anyone could get in and get out no matter how badly people in system want to catch said intruders.
I think warp to 0 made things easy enough...
I think that is where the defence modules / poses / structures come into play.
When you have sovereignty over a certain system then you can then install guns etc in key positions to protect your space.
That would encourage active defence ofc because the defence guns would only be a slow down to a certain attack force but would also be a deterrant for smaller groups or solo pilots. Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing
Funny, i'm still here - Petwraith
There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus
pwnt - Immy!!!11 |
Elenit
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Posted - 2007.02.17 12:44:00 -
[19]
Which is why I was advocating a module that was anchorable in space. It takes time an effort to setup and implement.
It takes time to charge up the module and continued effort to keep the thing online.
This opens up the posibility to locate and destory the object ahead of time - and also to warp to the entry point and go down the tube to the module.
Alliances can react to it as they would to any threat that appears in system.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Stakhanov How are alliances supposed to defend their territory with this ?
Send a few cyno alts in T1 frigates to transwarp into enemy system , warp to a few belts , transwarp to next system , repeat until you reach HQ , scatter in system and make a few safespots , drop cyno fields , jump fleet , win.
Ships dropping in empty space can be easily impossible to catch. I don't know about ships that take more than 30 seconds to align to warp... basically , anyone could get in and get out no matter how badly people in system want to catch said intruders.
I think warp to 0 made things easy enough...
All open to balance of course. Perhaps the scanner takes five seconds and the accuracy is 100km giving interceptors a more traditional role. Thing is, it can't be a sure thing, either way.
As for the cyno frigs - Perhaps some adjustments will be needed in that regard. Perhaps a 60 second delay before the cyno can be used by a cap ship. If the generating frig goes poof, the field poofs with it. 60 Seconds, with that big arrow on the overview, is a long time.
Another possibility is the addition of a cyno damper that disrupts any cynos in a system and it has to be destroyed before cynos can be created, (an idea by someone else not to long ago.) It is space after all and not a series of castle gate houses, which is what we currently have.
-AS |
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: ThaMa Gebir
I agree to a certain extent, but that role should be given to an interdictor if anything, at least name wise.
Yeah, could go with either, or why not both. I chose interceptor because of the name and its speed. But, I can see the argument either way. -AS |
ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:22:00 -
[22]
/conceded. Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing
Funny, i'm still here - Petwraith
There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus
pwnt - Immy!!!11 |
Kw4h
Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Stakhanov Send a few cyno alts in T1 frigates to transwarp into enemy system , warp to a few belts , transwarp to next system , repeat until you reach HQ , scatter in system and make a few safespots , drop cyno fields , jump fleet , win.
Then there should be something that appears on your overview when this trans-warp is initiated - kinda like how the cyno fields work. Depending on the distance the hostile is transwarping - it could take up to three minutes for him to appear. So you can get a 3 minute warning at max, and scramble people together for defence. Also, the exit point of this transwarp tunnel should be able to be found by probes. Of course not a 0 meter accuraccy, but give you the ability to be near the hostile when he jumps in. Perhaps bind the accuracy to the signature radius? (for gangs, the sig radius of the ship with the smallest value) At least the person jumping in should not be able to disappear that quickly - in case of the mentioned cyno ships.
Another thing that could be problematic is the loading of the system. Each system needs loading, but where is that going to take place? I suggest the moment the ship enters transwarp, so it has enough time to load the next system. However, this might give problems for intercepting ships.
In general I love this idea very much. Though, it should be harder for hostiles to jump into someone else's system, than having friendlies jump into their own. ___________
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:42:00 -
[24]
What is the RP story for all jump gates not working anymore? I like the idea though. Star Warsy hyperdrive. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What is the RP story for all jump gates not working anymore? I like the idea though. Star Warsy hyperdrive. :)
Hrm ... Could be a s simple as a new technology was invented, it was so popular that everyone immediately upgraded all their ships to use it. Those that support the gates no longer had the tolls to keep up maintenance and shut them down.
Limitless ideas I suppose. :)
-AS |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What is the RP story for all jump gates not working anymore? I like the idea though. Star Warsy hyperdrive. :)
Hrm ... Could be a s simple as a new technology was invented, it was so popular that everyone immediately upgraded all their ships to use it. Those that support the gates no longer had the tolls to keep up maintenance and shut them down.
Limitless ideas I suppose. :)
But that feels like a totally new game experience for me. We could have both options of travelling, couldn't we? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Virida
Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What is the RP story for all jump gates not working anymore? I like the idea though. Star Warsy hyperdrive. :)
lmao, ccp got some great roleplayers, i am shure they could figure out something.
I think Perpetual would be miffed at seeing their amazing startrek online transwarp concept be stolen by CCP though
And, transwarp bombs sounds like a fun idea
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Dendrin Koljn
Minmatar Elite United Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.17 14:12:00 -
[28]
Why would Cynofields still be required ? Surely all ships would be able to do this..
As for Teritory defence, then giving alliances the abilty to own/control their own deadspace complexes, where they can build(anchor) defences ANYWHERE within them- just like the NPC ones. Pos'es as they are now could be limited to just mining.
That gives targets + defensable areas.
Just thought of so not at all thought through.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:51:00 -
[29]
So: Gate-camping is immediately replaced with star-camping
As soon as someone enters local you scan them down as you know they will be within your integrated scan-range if you sit on the star.
You warp to them, and they have to avoid being warp scrambled or killed for 90 seconds while they calculate the next jump.
Since any stabbed up ship like a hauler will die in this time, and any combat ship like a BS will be warp scrambled in this time, let's just assume they are dead, unless they are in a superior ship, in which case they can take over camping the system.
Travel anywhere in anything but a blob becomes impossible.
Any and all tactics regarding escorts which may have survived the current poor mechanics get utterly raped by the trans-warp bomb or whatever it is. ----------
IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! No such thing as griefing in Eve |
Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What is the RP story for all jump gates not working anymore? I like the idea though. Star Warsy hyperdrive. :)
Hrm ... Could be a s simple as a new technology was invented, it was so popular that everyone immediately upgraded all their ships to use it. Those that support the gates no longer had the tolls to keep up maintenance and shut them down.
Limitless ideas I suppose. :)
But that feels like a totally new game experience for me. We could have both options of travelling, couldn't we?
I totally agree, have both implemented. Make "hyperspace" travel slower by not allowing autopilot, and a certain flight time. Jump gate travel would be faster, and hence more mainstream, but you'd have the option of using another method.
- Got grief?
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