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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:48:00 -
[1]
First impressions are the following:
1) Its nice that CCP came out and admitted something that they could have hidden.
2) The fact that they banned the person who brought all of this to light and are apparently not firing an admittedly corrupt employee absolutely reeks of evasion through admittance.
CCP needs to be 100% transparent about exactly what happened and how. That this is the only thing to have been addressed, and that it involves a developer really indicates to me that alot is being hidden from us.
There are far more pervasive issues existing within all of ISD that are not even hinted at by either blog post. The fact that the most obvious, pervasive and probably the most prevalent of all of the issues brought to light and CCP's treatment of the person who was responsible for all fo this leads me almost inescapably to the conclusion that much is still being hiden from us and that the so called "commitment" is highly disinenguous.
In order to win back my trust (I can hardly speak for the community), CCP needs to get rid of t20 (if this is not being done the purported gravity with which you view this corruption cannot be taken seriously), develop a transparent process for dealing with these issues (starting by telling us exactly what happened), unban the accounts of the player who allowed all of this to happen, and deal with the pervasive cheating, minor or not, that exsits within the ranks of the player volunteer core (I need make no specific accusations, but everyone who is even passingly familiar with the subject can't deny that there is a serious problem without lying).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:49:00 -
[2]
Originally by: NATMav How *not* to satisfy your customers.
1. Delete and ban anyone making accusations of wrongdoing
2. Deny deny deny
3. Launch an "investigation" after the community erupts into outcry
4. Close investigation, admit to one small insignificant problem
5. Deny deny deny
6. Lock and/or delete further discussion of the accusations
7. Reopen the "investigation" after the community erupts into outcry
8. Close investigation, admit to a bit bigger problem
9. Deny deny deny
10. To be continued.....
This is depressingly accruate and its a better explanation of why I am 100% possitive that this is only the tip of the iceberg.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:56:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Xendie to start with T20 should come 100% clean about everything even the account sharing and ebaying in RKK also and name names.
we know the name but if he has any spine at all he will name then for the record so all those accounts can be properly banned. we know he was in charge of RKK's capital fleet and had intimate knowledge of their cynonet and account sharing for that cynonet.
This is a point that should not be overlooked. There can be no question of EULA violating account sharing within that cynonet. This means at a bare minimum a developer of the game was complicit with breaking the same rules that people have their accounts banned for.
Quote:
also Sirmolle should have all his accounts banned for posting a persons RL name and adress on these forums.
Also should not be overlooked. They ban someone in retaliation for exposing their corruption and do not ban someone who was complicit in their corrupt for doing the same thing?
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:08:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Di Jiensai
CCP did investigate, and you have your witch to burn. You want to burn her now? Or maybe accept an apology for a realy not very serious act done long time ago?
This is the underlying point of this whole business. They *gave* us our witch to burn so we wouldn't burn everyone else with him. They admitted something serious enough to make people angry but something that clearly is not the limit of what happened.
They tried to placate us by offering a sacrifice. Are you really molified by such an overt attempt to quiet the mob?
Quote:
And about the Guy who started it off, I am realy glad he got Banned. He posted reallife Information about players he suspected (not proved) to be CCP people in player corps. That allone should get him banned.
So you really think they banned that guy for doing the same thing that did not get Molle banned? They are either being highly disingenuous or simply lying. I would go with the latter.
Quote:
So, t20, lessen learned i guess.
The lesson he learned is tha**** ok to cheat because if you are caught the worst that will happen is that part of what you did will be undone and you will be required to admit you did it.
The consequences to him are completely nil. If antyhing this should encourage more cheating.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:36:00 -
[5]
Quote:
Originally by: Various PlayersWhy were <players> from <corporation/alliance> not banned for account sharing due to being part of a cynonet network if t20 was managing the network of an alliance?
This is a question I had to do some research to get. Until reading the community response thread, I had not heard of a cynonet network and had to ask around to get some answers. As for the question itself...
It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
If anyone has evidence of account sharing in a cynonet network on the part of players, submit a petition. The GM team will investigage the evidence in the petition and take appropriate action.
If you had any credibility left, there it went. /me waves goodbye to it.
The *head* of the *capital fleet* of a *large* corporation was unaware of the existence of cynonets within his corporation and the account sharing that can accompany them? Are you alleging that he must simply not have been reading the forums of the corporation of which he was a director or am I miscontruing the only possible interpretation of what you just said? Was t20 playing with a blindfold on and earplugs in?
That is an outright, bald-faced, 100% lie. You would have been better of chanelling GM reimbursement petition replies and saying "out logs show no evidence of anything, sorry."
If you want to gain back trust start telling the truth, start being transparent. Offering up one dev for slaughter will not defuse this situation. You cannot regain what you once had by deflecting community concerns and offering up vacuous excuses and meaningless apologies.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 21:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
Agreed, this is an extremely important question!
There are two possible exaplanations:
1) CCP did not know that he actually made BPOs for himself- This seems to have been admitted as false by kieron and Hel.
2) CCP did not care and still do not care- This seems inescapable. They took action only six months after the fact because they were forced to. Accompanying this action they banned the player that forced them to reveal the information and have started lying to us again hoping that we will be sated by an un-fired dev whose punishment is not even known to us.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:14:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Baun on 10/02/2007 22:11:45
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
EVE will be 4 years old this year, and the Blog states there have been multiple of these situations, why wasnt this done MUCH MUCH earlier?
Becuase they don't care about actually policing themselves and protecting their customers, they only care that not doing so might cause them financial damage. They started "caring" the moment they were exposed and not one second before that.
If they cared they would have removed the BPOs when they found about about them. If they cared they would be completely transparent. If they cared they would not be lying to us and attempting to defuse the situation and deflect community concerns.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CPU To Sum Up:
1) Kieron should be commended for trying to come clean on this issue, and I expect that the slow response of CCP was a simple funtion of not being able to believe that a dev was cheating.
He definitely has a tough job but you should stop short of commending someone who is openly, branzely and repeatedly lying to us.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 22:59:00 -
[9]
Out of curiosity, if any mention of this thread is being kept from the general discussion section, how are people (read the vast majority of even the small subsection of the EVE community who read the forums actively but do not know this forum exists)supposed to find out about this or voice their concerns?
Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.10 23:49:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Baun on 10/02/2007 23:45:58
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Quote: It is my understanding that cynonet networks are a relatively new development in alliance warfare, primarily due to the recent commonness of dreads and carriers. I have been informed that t20's characters were removed from play before long before cynonetworks became common place and he was not aware of alleged account sharing.
You are not so stupid that you believe that so you must be lying. The dreadnoughts had been in the game for more than a year when t20s characters where deleted. We , the regular players have seen the pictures from their cynonets so we know t20 is lying.
In some sense this is actually the most insulting thing that has happened thus far; the devs actually think that their paying customers are so stupid as to buy this complete line of bull****.
"We had no idea that something people had been using for months and months and that was an inevitable implication of game mechanics we ourselves designed was even around. The cheating dev who happened to administer that area for one of the corps in the game with the largest capital fleet had no knowledge of the things he himself setup."
I am really sickened by this. Not only do they lie to us, they lie to us in a manner that assumes we are, at best, functionally retarded.
Of course, I feel like I am spinning my wheels here. I suppose that that isn't surprising given the dearth of information released to us and the almost complete silence from CCP (bar the occasional bald faced lie).
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Baun Why hasn't there been an ingame news posting about this? If you aren't covering this up how can you explain this?
65 pages and counting, nearly 2000 posts so far, and two dev blogs. Nope, no one can find this thread. CCP's cover up is working perfectly.
What percentage of active players even read the forums on a day to day basis? Lets be really generous and call it 20%.
What percentage of active forum readers ever read this section of the forums? 1% maybe?
What percentage of EVE subscribers even know that there are dev blogs, much less read the dev blogs? Probably less than 20%.
While all of that demonstrates actually how little the primary information has disseminated to the community, it is largely irrelevant. If CCP is so sincere about wanting our forgiveness and coming clean why are they deleting any linking of threads in other forums (even in replies)? Why hasn't their honest desire to make amends prompted an in-game news post?
The answer is so obvious that you prodding me must have been disingenuous.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
What percentage of people hear stuff 'word of mouth' from their friends? 100%
True as that may be,that means that the vast vast majority of players are getting information through a cosmic version of telephone.
That people can get information without actually seeing the primaries actually has nothing to do with my question. Please deal with that directly if you could;
If CCP is so committed to coming clean and being open, why can't this thread be linked to other more commonly read areas of the forum? Why haven't they made an ingame news post about the most monumental game related piece of news ever?
It is hard for me to simultaneously believe that ever EVE player out there is getting this information somehow and that CCP is instructing forum moderators to quash mention of this elsewhere with no ulterior motive. Certainly if everyone has ready access to this information there would be no reason why there is no news posting right? There would be no reason not to make clear notice of this post on the other areas of the board?
Here is a nice corrolary for you. When the forums were being bombarded with trojan links that were taking over people's accounts did CCP confine discussion of it to one thread? Did they make a new post about it? No, they stickied every forum with the information and made an urgent news posting about it.
CCP thought that that was something everyone should know immediately. Obviously they don't believe that the entire player base should be given immediate notice of this.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 00:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kalindra naskan Edited by: Kalindra naskan on 11/02/2007 00:44:55
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Counterparty
WHen every self-righteous eula-thumping innocence-feigning poster quits, yes it would be better around here. The posters ranting that their subscription payment entitles them to render judgements of holy purification on the devs don't make a better game.
We are customers, we have every right.
You don't have any right at all! CCP is offering you a service that they completely own, and are free to do whatever they want with. Paying to use a service does not give you any kind of power to change decisions or how CCP operates.
I am sure CCP wants a reputation as the company people can pay money to to be cheated and lied to in their spare time.
Ace deal I am sure they are looking forward to this.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: The Armin Those of you wanting t20's head should consider the following. You have set the jobs of your friends and coworkers in danger, you have seriously damaged your companys rep, if CCP looses subscriptions over this (like many).. well imagine the consequences. Isn't it punishment enough to have to clock in at work at 7 or 8 every morning and look into the eyes of the very ppl who's job you've set in danger ?
You mean the same people who didn't care enough to eve remove the fruits of his cheating from the game until they were forced to do so 6 months after the fact? The same people who gave him a wink wink nudge nudge slap on the wrist?
As I said, the sequence of events and the continued lying proves that CCP has no genuine care about this. They don't actually care about preventing misconduct or protecting the integrity of our gameplay, they care about their pocketbooks. They did nothing until they had no choice but to do something and they have revealed nothing more than is neccesary while continuing to lie to us.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:33:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Novina Agrari
Let him quit. Better yet, let's see him reassigned to the White Wolf division of CCP. Wouldn't that be a fitting solution? No more ever-so-important EVE dev account. No, t20 - now your job is to work on balancing vampire powers. And if a game comes out for that, well, you just go right ahead and make yourself a powerful vampire. Just think - you'll be able to work your way to head goth in some online coven, maybe slip them a few twinked out pieces of black lace clothing as a favor! Everyone will be impressed at what a great LARPer you are. And you won't be screwing up EVE anymore. It's a win-win.
Ok that made me LMAO.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Novina Agrari
By the way, as for the 'BoB never suspected the dev who supplied them with, at the least, 6 T2 BPOs was doing anything fishy' line, doesn't that leave us with only two real explanations? Namely..
1: They're liars 2: They're just really stupid
I suggest all of us who have faith in the integrity of BoB's leadership rally to their defense - to what is, in fact, their only defense.
Say it with me now. "BoB doesn't cheat. They're just really, really stupid."
Presuming of course that the information Kugustmen posted was true, keeping in mind that we now have pretty damn good reason to believe it is, the RKK brass knew about this. It seems entirely unclear whether they knew he cheated to get the assets he got but they definitely knew who he was.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 03:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 03:36:44 Baun,
Kugustmen is a criminal hacker. If you're foolish to believe anything he says, ever, without a full investigation then there's no hope for you.
I don't know for certain whether those logs are valid or not but consider the following;
CCP at this point has less credibility than the supposed "criminal hacker." He could have known once piece of information and faked everything else but I know at least one thing he "uncovered" was true. Nothing CCP has told us so far has been true (unless you count something they didn't tell us for 7 months and then were forced to tell us and then continued to lie about). While you need to take a leap of faith to believe anything CCP says at this point, all I have to do is look at the facts laid out for all the world to see in order for that "hacker"'s credibility to find purchase.
So turn about is fair play Maya. Anyone who takes anything CCP says at face value is a fool, you included. You should feel like a moron for telling people to place more trust in a company that has cheated them and continues to lie to them then in someone who has had his information actually corroborated.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:09:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 04:06:38
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun, no, CCP is a legitimate company and I have heard of no criminal charges against them. Your statement is ridiculous hackfleet propaganda, and serves only to damage the company and the game you evidently hate so much.
What was wrong with my statement.
Here are the facts:
1) CCP becomes aware of this dev misconduct and did nothing more than remove the characters involved from the game (although I would actually be shocked if they removed them instead of changing the portraits and names).
2) Kugutsumen uncovers information about dev misconduct and other cheating.
3) CCP conducts an "investigation" into something they already had full knowledge of. Meanwhile CCP deletes all threads relating to the matter and bans the person responsible for bringing the information to light.
4) After continued community pressure CCP admits something they have know for 6 months and finally takes the absolute bare minimum action they must take to remedy the situation.
5) CCP discloses essentially no information beyond what the public already knew about the incident. CCP baldly lies to the community about what their cheating developer knew and did. CCP fails to ban people for the same acts that allowed them to seek vengeance against the party that "caused" (note; CCP actually caused) these problems for them.
How can you actually say CCP, which has been caught in a lie and coverup concerning one of their current employees cheating in this game, has more credibility then a player who has said nothing that has been shown to false and has said things that have been shown to be true? You are blind.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:19:00 -
[19]
More to the point Novina, the same tactics employed by many alliances in this game (not surprisingly most notably by BoB themselves), pretexting, which is to say misrepresenting yourself in order to gain access and trust, is actually an actionable offense in many countries the same way hacking is (the relative severity might be different but if you want to go down that road you have already lost).h
No one condones hacking. No one should condone pretexting (out of game, as in game no one owns anything to pretext concerning). It is especially hilarious for me to watch the same people that spend most of their time in game illegally misrepresenting their way into access in other people's out of game resources flailing about to find moral high ground from which to look down on the actions of someone who has outed them.
Highlighting the illegedly nefarious way in which information was obtained is no more than attempt to pull the wool over our eyes and cloud the real issue here; CCP has cheated us and continues to lie to us. We now know that what they say cannot be trusted.
The ball is in their court to address this. Bash K all you want for whatever reason you want, these are identifiably separate issues.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:21:00 -
[20]
Titan, the kind of investigation where you discuss how to minimize the impact of the fact that you demonstrably don't care one lick about your customers.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 05:30:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 05:31:51
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun,
"My outrage is based solely on things we certainly do know"
You're reaching when you take one word Kugutsumen has posted which has not been proven by a full investigation as gospel.
What are you talking about? Virtually everything I have posted has been based on things already admitted by CCP and simple pure common sense that relies in no great part on K's information.
I have suggested that his credibility is higher than CCP's at this point, because it is. I have suggested that by virtue of this fact we might want to contemplate that some of his other information is also correct, but I haven't needed to assume any of this to be just as angry as I am right now.u
Quote:
Social engineering as part of the game would have to fill several criteria to be illegal - and being "hurt" in Eve is in NO WAY under current British, American or Icelandic law an injury or loss. And CCP would be most displeased if you were able to prove otherwise...I'm sure you can work out the reason why.
Thanks for not reading.
I have nothing against any in-game spying, lying or what have you. The moment that spying reaches outside of the game onto websites, forums, killboards and teamspeak servers a line has been crossed. You gain access to very real resources paid for by very real money *owned* by very real people by lying.
While there can be no real injury in EVE except to CCP (as no one but CCP owns any property in EVE) there are very real injuries that take place as soon as you start using someone else's servers. From the most obvious TS server spammage to the most subtle information taking these injuries are real and the conduct is not legal.
Quote:
Technical and social hacking are treatedly very differently under the law. Maybe it shouldn't be so..but they are. You might want to ask someone who studies computer law before you reply to that one, incidentally.
Incidentally, I am a law student.
The line that is usually drawn between those two is between a crime and a tort. Both kinds of conduct are illegal the only difference is that in some countries the governments have decided the former is so much more dangerous than the latter than they have criminalized it rahter than allowing society to self regulate through pursuit of civil action. You would probably have a pretty tough time finding an injury sufficient to sustain a civil cause of action, but that doesn't have much to do with the underlying conduct only with the demonstrable value of what was stolen.
Of course, the division is not exclusive. You could undoubtedly find jurisdictions where both types of conduct are criminally actionable and jurisdictions where neither is.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 05:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Tanis Bastar OK, I've got another theory, which was already brought up by someone on this thread--the timing strongly suggests that the failure to deal with this in the summer is connected to the deal with White Wolf.
While I think that CCP has it's fair share of idiots, I would hope they weren't that completely inept.
I'm not sure that I'd call it inept; picture what would have happened if, just prior to signing a merger agreement (or whatever it was), CCP fired a leading dev for cheating, and has the fan base erupt into uproar. I suspect that they thought, "Gee, it's only some crappy BPOs, it doesn't really matter, it's not worth losing our big deal over..."
Wow, I did not think about that.
This might be better placed in a separate thread, but think about the possible repercussions;
Facts: 1) CCP knew about something that could damage their credibility with the player base and potentially ravage their subscriber pool and lower the net worth of their company.
2) At the time CCP learned of this they were conducting a merger with another company.
3) CCP did not diclose the information,
Now maybe this means:
1) CCP deliberately did not disclose the information so as not to jeopardize merger negotations.
2) In so doing CCP failed to disclose information material to the financial condition of their company
3) CCP might be criminally liable and civilly liable to White Wolf.
Don't want to go down that path, but it really does not sound too far fetched (though it doubtless will to some).
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 05:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: MrDisposable
Originally by: Hemroid
Originally by: Baun
1) CCP deliberately did not disclose the information so as not to jeopardize merger negotations.
2) In so doing CCP failed to disclose information material to the financial condition of their company
3) CCP might be criminally culpale and civilly liable to White Wolf.
Does this mean we should start playing WoW for our online gaming fix?
I guess.... the fantasy crap bugs the hell out of me... maybe that new battlestar galactica MMO coming out or any other sci-fi game. CCP better straighten up before competition comes by and railroads them.
Can you link to the BSG mmo? :)
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:15:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar
Er, I think you're getting carried away. It's not clear now, and certainly would have been even less clear then, that the initial situation would have really been a big deal if handled properly. If CCP would have come out (before being outed by a hacker) and said, "hey, there's been a problem, here's what we're doing to fix it...", I don't think people would have been very upset with CCP (although the BoB flames would be just as bad).
I didn't mean what I posted to imply that these were neccesary consequences of the facts at issue.
What I meant is that it may turn out that this has a hugely negative impact on CCP's net worth. If that is the case and they didn't tell White Wolf when they knew about it then it seems like there is potential for legal action and hence, retrospectively, a potential motive for why they did not immediately reveal what had happened.
It is quite likely that if they had dealt with this properly it wouldn't have been so serious, but i think this is a piece of the puzzle we need to consider.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:45:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Xthril Ranger Every eve related website I got an account with got my real name.
Rather you than me.
I never give out my real name over the internet, unless it is over a secure connection to someone I trust with those details.
You really should consider the same very basic levels of net-security imho.
You might be interested to know that many corporations require your real name and some basic info about you before they will let you join. Even those corps that do not require this basic sort of information always will ask you who your alts are and what corporations they are in (if there is a corp in game, in an alliance, that does not do this I would be shocked). Lying about this is and then using the information you obtain for purposes against that which the people who gave you the access intneded *is pretexting*. Simply because teamspeak passwords and forum information are not as obviously valuable as CC #s and SSNs does not mean that it is perfectly legal to lie your way into access to those resources (forgetting of course the personal information that will inevitably be disclosed on corporate forums to which you gain access).
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 17:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2007 14:07:29
Originally by: Heritor
Originally by: Avon
At the end of the day, one person in CCP cheated.
One BoB member CHEATED he happened to be employed by CCP.
Please realise this BoB Cheated..do you understand
One CCP employee CHEATED he happened to be a member of BoB.
Please realise this CCP Cheated..do you understand
Ya and thats the entire thrust of this whole thread.
While some may want to dissemble and try to act like everyone is outrage solely because this involves BoB, this is really not the case.
The primary problems are the way in which CCP has reacted to this. They did nothing until they were forced to do so, they have disclosed no information, they have continued to lie to us and they have not enforced their policies consistently.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: XirtamVotf Baun.. the legal term for action would be "silent fraud" and actionable, with mis mal and non feasance for a basis I would beleive. Followed by breach of trust, and contract.
"Silent fraud" only occurs when there is a legal duty to disclose and answers are implied through silence.
In this case, presumably those people who gain access to others' corporations were asked the sort of questions that create a duty to disclose (i.e. please tell me these things before we will give you forum and ts access) and they responded by lying about them.
That is not "silent fraud" it is just simple fraud. If there is a reason that it would not be actionable it would be in cases where there is no demonstrable injury flowing from the fraud.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nils Bohr
Originally by: Baun Of course, the division is not exclusive. You could undoubtedly find jurisdictions where both types of conduct are criminally actionable and jurisdictions where neither is.
Pretexting is a crime in California. I have no idea whether hacking is against the law where K lives, nor whether pretexting is against the law where BoB's forums/TS spies live. But both can be considered "criminal activity."
Personal jurisdiction isn't the simplest topic, no matter what country you are talkiing about, but it may be entirely irrelevant whether it is illegal where the person who did it lives. More likely, it matters more where the relevant information is "located" and the extent to which there any purposeful availment of that jurisdiction. The issue is quite a bit more complicated since what is being dealt with is not tangible and as such the virtual location of the information may also be less relevant then the wronged party's home jurisdiction but, as I said, this is unclear.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:10:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 18:07:02
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/02/2007 18:03:12 Baun, there is no "duty" to give correct personal information in matters which do not involve contracts or financial transactions, and even then that duty can be limited. You could impose such restrictions specifically, but then you would not be permitted by the Eve rules to use that forum for discussing Eve.
There is no underlying legal duty to tell anyone who wants to know your personal information, or indeed any information at all.
When they ask for this information in order to justify giving you access to some of their property, a legal duty to respond truthfully (or decline to answer the questions) is created. Indeed, a legal duty not to imply an acceptable answer that might induce their reliance is also created. When you lie to someone so that they will give you access to something they would not have given you had you not lied you have committed fraud. When you make use of that access in a way they explicitly do not want you to you have probably committed a crime.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Baun
This is the wrong tack to take Avon. What you guys (and yes, many many others) do has lead inevitably to hacking as a simple short cut. Illegally lying your way into information owned by someone else might seem more acceptable to the public than hacking but that in no way implies you are allowed to do it, it only implies that the community lets people get away with it.
I think you are missing my point Baun
By registering on any forum and using the name of a fictional character, either everyone is pretexting, or no-one is. A character on one account is no more "legitimate" than a character on another account.
This is a clever attempt to get around the thrust of every recruitment/security check in EVE.
When you signup with *any corporation in any alliance* they will ask you what alt characters you play and what corporations they are in. If you respond by lieing to this and this response gains you access then you are committing fraud.
You also forgot when I mentioned that many corporations ask for your real name. I suppose that "any real name" is as good as any other? Or is lying about who you are to gain use to the property of others perfectly acceptable in your mind?
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Example: Avon registered on BoB forums: Pretexting: I am not Avon, he is made up. Avon4Sspy registered on the Morsus Mihi forum: Pretexting: I'm not him either.
Now, which one is pretexting unfairly? Which is me?
Given that you are one person operating multiple characters, if you are asked who those characters are and you lie about it in order to facilitate use of the property of another you are committing a crime (in some places) and/or are exposing yourself to civil liability.
It is entirely irrelevant whether you can say that there is one "main" character. All that matters is that you lie to a direct question.
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Pretexting does not apply in works of fiction, sorry.
Pretexting does not apply where there are no property interests involved. You can lie to hell and back in game and no one will have suffered any injury because no one owns anything in EVE. The moment you use someone elses' website, someone elses' teamspeak server, someone elses' information that they *own* and do so only by virtue of having lied to them then you have are no longer in any "fictional world" you have entered the real one.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:50:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Baun,
No, you are not. I suggest you read up on this, because it's ridiculous that someone who claims to be a law student has so little idea about the topic. Your concept of the duty to respond honestly to random questions is ridiculous, and would ban the use of aliases
You have no right to use someone elses' website unless they give you that right. You have no right to use someone else's teamspeak server unless they give you that right.
A person may choose to require certain information before giving anyone those rights. If they require that information then if you make use of those rights granted to you must respond truthfully. You induce their reliance by giving them false information where they have expressed a desire for true information. Everywhere this is civilly actionable and in some places it is a crime.
You would be well served to not talk out the ass about something you have absolutely no idea about.
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If you want to have certaincy, you must have a contract. But then that forum, per the rules, cannot be used for Eve.
Let me repeat again about how you shouldn't talk out of your own ass.
The EULA states: "You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber's personal information within the EVE Online game world or website."
An out of game website owned and operated by a real person is not part of the Eve Online game world and it is not part of the Eve Online website.
I can just as easily require certain information for viewing my personal webpage about pogs as I can require information for viewing my personal webpage in which other people similiarly granted access talk about EVE and their plans in it.
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If you ask me my name and I say "Maya Rkell", I am not commiting a crime, as is your contention.
If you think that is my contention you are either retarded or disingenuous.
What is being done is that people ask a serious of factual questions in order to ascertain whether they wish to give you access to their personal property. If you lie to those questions you have induced their reliance on your lieing and have committed fraud. You have very few duties to tell anyone anything in the abstract, but we are not working with the abstract.
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Further, those websites and TS servers are NOT on contract (and this is deliberate), but on a limited condition of usage, so it is further irrelevant.
There is good reason why I am talking in terms of inducing reliance through fraud and not in terms of breach of contract. Your hilarious assumption is that the only way in which any false information could be actionable is if it implicates a contract. This is incorrect.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:52:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Baun on 11/02/2007 18:51:36
Originally by: XirtamVotf Wow so Mutual Assent does not apply eh Maya? and the the community and CCP engage in Acceptance?
Contacts are expressed and implied, paper doesnt need to be involved
The only way in which this can be a contract situation is if there is consideration involved.
Unless you can fashion an argument whereby consideration is the forebearance of your right to dissimenate information to which you are giving access you are going to have a tought time making that argument.
That said, people like Maya who know nothing about this think that contracts are the only font of liability and this is false.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:08:00 -
[33]
Originally by: XirtamVotf It wouldnt actually be tough at all, since corporations are responsible for the actions of its employees. And if they are expressed and implied, and induces the community to agree through trust of said EULA .
When you mix contract and implied you are almost always talking about promissory estoppel (which is a contract like grounds for recovery that has to be with reliance).
Contracts require an objective manifestation of mutual assent. It is hard for things to be objective and simultaneously be implied. Either there is an objective manifestation or there is not.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:15:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Baun,
There IS a permission. The one given by the owner for an Eve-related TS or forum. Otherwise, you could not put the forum there. You can ask for certain information, but without a contractual or financial relationship you have no recourse except to terminate that access if you were not given the correct data.
Here is where your ignorance shines through.
This is NOT TRUE. If someone's misrepresentation induces someone else's reasonable reliance then that person has a basis for civil action. Whether or not it is a crime is wholly a statutory matter. It is a crime in some places and it is not a crime in other places. Whether it is a crime that would actually be prosecuted in any place is an entirely different matter.
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If you're a law student, you'll have access to that recent precident.
What precedent concerning what?
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since you are asserting that the Eve corperation is an organisation...
What the hell are you talking about?
Forums are located on servers that are actually, as in in real reality, owned by someone. Teamspeak is the same. There are very real property rights involved that has nothing to do with EVE.
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Your assumption is you have a right to certain forms of data, which is both incorrect and in many cases downright illegal in itself, especially for children.
If I pay for a TS server I have the absolute right to control who uses it. There is no argument about this.
Whether or not you are a minor is only incidental (and usually irrelevant) and completely beside the point.
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You cannot prove any loss, further, because losses in Eve are ZERO in the eyes of the law.
You can prove that they deprived you of the use of an asset or they misappropriated personal information. Difficulty in providing remedy does not speak to the nuderlying legality of the conduct it just speaks to the fact that the conduct involves a game instead of something more serious.
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You sound like you're reading a 4-5 year old textbook on this, when there were basic assumptions made which have not held up in court.
And you sound like you have not the first clue about any of this. You are throwing your arms up in the air screaming about the evils of hacking and simultaneously trying to defend similiarly illegal conduct on the grounds that the information involved in each case is worthless. Those positions are inconsistent.
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Also, "unauthorised" is the key word - authorisation given on false details when no duty existed to give correct details is valid.
You are very confused. You assume that because there is no legal duty, in an absolute sense, to tell the truth that whether you tell the truth in any particular context is irrelevant.
This is not the case. Misrepresentation inducing reasonable reliance is alone actionable. Misreprsentation for the purposes of misappropriating someone else's property might even be a crime. Simply because you have no sense of anything legal outside of some vague notion that a contract "provides assurance" does not mean that these things do not actually exist.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:22:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Le Pecarosh
Originally by: Prydeless WHY IS SIR MOLLE NOT BANNED FOR POSTING RL INFO ON THE FORUMS ABOUT KUG?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SOMEONE ANSWER THAT KIERON, HELMAR WHOEVER BUT SOMEONE ANSWER THAT.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever. - THATS A QUOTE AND YOU KNOW WHO SAID IT.
It doesn't matter anymore. Even if they ban him, he has (or 'had') advanced notice, so he'll move all the assest to another char. Unlike some other people who got banned without any notice...
While this advanced notice could allow him to give up all the assets to the corporation, if they are following K's precedent they will have to ban all of his accounts, not just the one he posted with.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 03:14:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Running Mann
Originally by: Helox
Dunno, but I believe t20 was a webdeveloper and just recently was promoted to a junior game dev? (Way to punish him btw) There we go!
Isn't this a case of foreshadowing? Check the end of what was linked to.
"Sharing these songs means I can't share them with my corpmates without being found out, with an unhealthy dose of paranoia and schizophrenia as an endresult. Thus are the secret lives of CCP player accounts."
If only you had realized t20, just how much "paranoia and schizophrenia" would result -- legitimately! - when we found out just what you were up to. I like how he labels the legit negative response to his in-game actions. Does this seem like he's trying to pull a bit of pre-emptive damage control or what?
Wow, he is both skilled a cheating (or well not skilled enough apparently) and good at inserting his foot all the way into his mouth ... repeatedly.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 09:21:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Baun on 12/02/2007 09:19:03 Just to remind people of one little "tid bit."
While the dev cheating is very high profile and very shokcing, there has been rampant cheating that CCP has known about for years and done nothing about, long before this ever surfaced or was an issue.
I am talking of course about ISD members cheating by misuing their forum mod access, event team access and limited informational access to their own benefit. Much of the event issues you are linking to the devs actually come from ISD people who are still in place. They are only removed when they are caught by the community, they are not policed by CCP.
It might not surprise you to learn that a very very great number of these people are in EVOL and other BoB corporations (EVOL especially though, old school FA has an absolute ton of ISD representation). The problem is by no means limited to EVOL or BoB, it is, rather, a pervasive community wide issue that has gone almost completely unchecked since the dawn of the game.
CCP doesn't care enough to do anything about it and in the midst of this scandal people are actually forgetting about a far more pervasive and potentially more damaging issue. Don't forget about it, be vigilant.
Before people start shouting "proof or stfu." All you need to do is know a single former ISD person and all will be revealed to you. Have some patience for the rest.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.12 14:38:00 -
[38]
Originally by: merc999
You have the best signature in the history of the forums.
/me ponders stealing it.
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