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Milonia
Caldari APEX Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:07:00 -
[1]
This issue keeps getting brought up by my friends that I try to recruit to the game.
They play "traditional" MMOs where you gain XP and you can powerlevel to endgame and a level cap and be just as good as older characters.
So I tell them about EVE's skill point system. They say, "So I create a character and I will NEVER be as good as the guy that has been playing for year or more? No thanks!"
How does everyone feel about this? I am new and only a month old so I kinda got dissapointed by hearing this point brought up as well.
Will I never be as good as older players? Or once someone trains skills for 6 months or a year they can start to compete with even older characters because the benefits start to get smaller with more skill time?
Like by the time people are years old all they can train are skills that take months to train and they gain a small benefit because of skills having a decreasing marginal rate of returns.
The new player is getting all the lower ranks trained quickly so they can gain the ability to do more in less time.
So they catch up in a way?
Does this make any sence? I need to have a counter to this argument. ============================== Milonia Combat Pilot of the ACV Acadia (Moa) I'm new so be nice!
"Talent is a gift... training opens the Box." |
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:08:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Milonia This issue keeps getting brought up by my friends that I try to recruit to the game.
They play "traditional" MMOs where you gain XP and you can powerlevel to endgame and a level cap and be just as good as older characters.
So I tell them about EVE's skill point system. They say, "So I create a character and I will NEVER be as good as the guy that has been playing for year or more? No thanks!"
How does everyone feel about this? I am new and only a month old so I kinda got dissapointed by hearing this point brought up as well.
Will I never be as good as older players? Or once someone trains skills for 6 months or a year they can start to compete with even older characters because the benefits start to get smaller with more skill time?
Like by the time people are years old all they can train are skills that take months to train and they gain a small benefit because of skills having a decreasing marginal rate of returns.
The new player is getting all the lower ranks trained quickly so they can gain the ability to do more in less time.
So they catch up in a way?
Does this make any sence? I need to have a counter to this argument.
You can kill someone whose been here since day 1 with a character fresh in the pod. Skills make your life easier, nothing more. Now if you were to complain that getting ISK was easier back in the day, I won't argue with that.
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Valan
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:15:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
You can kill someone whose been here since day 1 with a character fresh in the pod. Skills make your life easier, nothing more. Now if you were to complain that getting ISK was easier back in the day, I won't argue with that.
I'm sorry did I understand you correctly? It used to be easier to get ISK?
If thats what you mean you have no idea, none what so ever.
No missions No high end rats Battleships got p4wn3d by NPC cruisers Ore prices were fixed Ore didn't respawn, finding a roid field became nearly impossible No complexes You went from cruiser to battleship, a huuge jump.
If you didn't mean that, the above is for anyone who does
/start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:16:00 -
[4]
Man this again, moderators, there needs to be some topics that are stickied and refuted, this is one of them. I'm about to throw up every time someone new comes here stating how the openended skillsystem is unfair and how they can't catch up.
Old players leave, new ones get experience, circle of life.
I often get outmatched by pilots in my corporation with half my skillpoints total.
Ourselves Alone |
Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:17:00 -
[5]
you will in time get to be as good at any particular activity as the old timer whose been playing for years. remember you can only get so good at whatever it is and once you hit that cap the old timer can only pick something new to get good at.
what you will not be is as broadly skilled or versatile as an older player. all in all not exactly the most unreasonable way to set things up.
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Mr Li
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:17:00 -
[6]
but there is an "end game" or at least a point where returns on skill training time diminish. Let's take Gunnery as an example. I use rails almost exclusively on my alt and he has well over 6m SP in gunnery and has t2 rails from large to small. It doesn't get much better once you hit a certain point, and even then the percentage of "betterness" is negligible. I could train an extra 25 days for large rail spec 5 and get a 5% bonus to damage, but that doesn't make much sense when it took 10 days or so to train for a 20% bonus (and also the ability to use the t2 mod itself but lets keep it simple).
if you specialize you can reach an "end game" in your chosen specialization -- meaning that you are just as good as the oldest players in the game when it comes to SP in your field of specialization.
but your friends do have a valid argument to a point. If I have a lot of time, like a week long holiday, i can just have a grindfest all week and get my WoW warrior to lvl 70. Eve takes more patience tbh and that's not necessarily a good thing all the time.
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Valan
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
You can kill someone whose been here since day 1 with a character fresh in the pod. Skills make your life easier, nothing more. Now if you were to complain that getting ISK was easier back in the day, I won't argue with that.
I'm sorry did I understand you correctly? It used to be easier to get ISK?
If thats what you mean you have no idea, none what so ever.
No missions No high end rats Battleships got p4wn3d by NPC cruisers Ore prices were fixed Ore didn't respawn, finding a roid field became nearly impossible No complexes You went from cruiser to battleship, a huuge jump.
If you didn't mean that, the above is for anyone who does
1. Ya, ore prices were fixed, so the 5,000 macrominers can't completely bugger up your sell price by flooding the market. 2. High end 'roids balanced lack of rats. 3. Pirates could actually camp somewhere and loot stuff, now they need to interdict or somehow intercept the player before he/she WTZ.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:20:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 06/02/2007 17:17:27
Originally by: Derovius Vaden You can kill someone whose been here since day 1 with a character fresh in the pod. Skills make your life easier, nothing more.
QFT, and quoted post wins the forums for today
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Milonia
Caldari APEX Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:21:00 -
[9]
I am not whining to the above poster. I was curious as to what the counter to that argument was. I think I get it.
I told my friend this in an email.
Quote: Well I was thinking, the skill system works as follows: Small Hybrid Turret is a Rank 1 skill that gives a +3% boost in damage to small hybrid guns. The first level of that skill only takes 20 minutes to train because it only about 250 skill points. Level 2 takes longer because its 1000 skill points so it can take an hour. Level 3 will be 4 hours. Level 4 is about 12 hours. It goes up by a factor of 4 every level. But you only get the same +3% boost for every level. So its a dimishing return on your time to train it. So a character that has been around for 6 months or a year has most all the skills trained to level 4 in the field of choice they do. Combat, Production, Research etc. Characters that are years old are now either spending HUGE amounts of time to train level 5's on rank 4+ skills that take months to train for very little return, or they are training skills in areas they didn't specialize in originally. Like a combat pilot wants to try out some production stuff and trains up skill there. So after a short time newer characters start to become very near the older ones in how good they are in thier career of choice. Having tons and tons of money is another issue.... :-)
============================== Milonia Combat Pilot of the ACV Acadia (Moa) I'm new so be nice!
"Talent is a gift... training opens the Box." |
William Hamilton
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:23:00 -
[10]
Edited by: William Hamilton on 06/02/2007 17:20:31 Edited by: William Hamilton on 06/02/2007 17:19:42 Diminishing returns, a new player can train level 1 for X% bonus, and old player has to spend 625 (?) times the amount of time for the same X% bonus. And that X% bonus doesn't stack either...
And also, skills are just one of many factors.
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Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:25:00 -
[11]
Two things to consider:
More focused new players - When I started, and Im far from an old timer, my character is less than a year and a half or so old, there were no tools like Evemon or Quickfit, compared to today where Ive seen new players very focused on a particular goal and how to achieve it in the most efficient manner possible, my training was a lot more fumbling, a bit of this a bit of that.
Specialisation - Two factors, there are only so many skill points you can effectively use in any ship and though level 5 in this an that is nothing to sniff at, thanks to the skill system it takes a lot of skill investment to move from level 4 to 5 for a minimal return. Thus while a vet may be effective in a lot of different roles and ships a new player can in a reasonable length of time be just as effective in a focused number of roles/ships. Not that you should underestimate the advantage that such flexibility offers, but the point still stands that if a new player tries to focus they can be just as effective in a ship as a vet with several times their skill points. - - - PIs and Forensic Accountants: adding risk vs reward for scams and thievery |
Valan
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:25:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Valan on 06/02/2007 17:24:40
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Originally by: Valan
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
You can kill someone whose been here since day 1 with a character fresh in the pod. Skills make your life easier, nothing more. Now if you were to complain that getting ISK was easier back in the day, I won't argue with that.
I'm sorry did I understand you correctly? It used to be easier to get ISK?
If thats what you mean you have no idea, none what so ever.
No missions No high end rats Battleships got p4wn3d by NPC cruisers Ore prices were fixed Ore didn't respawn, finding a roid field became nearly impossible No complexes You went from cruiser to battleship, a huuge jump.
If you didn't mean that, the above is for anyone who does
1. Ya, ore prices were fixed, so the 5,000 macrominers can't completely bugger up your sell price by flooding the market. 2. High end 'roids balanced lack of rats. 3. Pirates could actually camp somewhere and loot stuff, now they need to interdict or somehow intercept the player before he/she WTZ.
Good points but you put a new guy in this thread that hasn't had enough for a cruiser in the first month. Most new players have enough for a battle crusier in a couple of months.
It took about 2 months to get the isk for a cruiser tops, took me around three and I was in low sec and scraps of 0.0. If you look at my corp history at the time I joined Sanctuary Corp I owned a Blackbird and I played a lot.
EDIt : After thinking about point 2. Ores like Noxcium and Isogen are worth shed laods more than used to be. Megacyte and Zyd have been stable for a while. Point 3 is a failure to adapt and change. Darwins rules apply here, things change if you don't adapt you die like the Dinosaur.
/start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Valan
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Originally by: Valan
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
You can kill someone whose been here since day 1 with a character fresh in the pod. Skills make your life easier, nothing more. Now if you were to complain that getting ISK was easier back in the day, I won't argue with that.
I'm sorry did I understand you correctly? It used to be easier to get ISK?
If thats what you mean you have no idea, none what so ever.
No missions No high end rats Battleships got p4wn3d by NPC cruisers Ore prices were fixed Ore didn't respawn, finding a roid field became nearly impossible No complexes You went from cruiser to battleship, a huuge jump.
If you didn't mean that, the above is for anyone who does
1. Ya, ore prices were fixed, so the 5,000 macrominers can't completely bugger up your sell price by flooding the market. 2. High end 'roids balanced lack of rats. 3. Pirates could actually camp somewhere and loot stuff, now they need to interdict or somehow intercept the player before he/she WTZ.
Good points but you put a new guy in this thread that hasn't had enough for a cruiser in the first month. Most new players have enough for a battle crusier in a couple of months.
It took about 2 months to get the isk for a cruiser tops, took me around three and I was in low sec and scraps of 0.0. If you look at my corp history at the time I joined Sanctuary Corp I owned a Blackbird and I played a lot.
I've had this character for almost two weeks, and I'm more than half way to a Battleship; I purchased by first vexor after 4 days, and it only took me an extra day to save up for the skills to make it worth my while.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/02/2007 17:28:11 Let's put it this way... in terms of skillpoints, how long does it take to completely max out anything that might be even remotely useful on a Wolf/Jaguar, for instance ? And I mean everything. Not THAT much, and the "fully maxed out" (all L5) char won't be that much better compared to a mostly L4s char... meaning two of the guys with 1/5 total SPs will completely obliterate the single char with more than 5 times more SP. Heck, you can start a char almost ready to get into one (or anyway, less than a month away).
Bottom line is, in most cases, two low-SP alt chars will have a relatively easy time beating up a much older main char specialising in the same ship they do a "face off" with, assuming equal (actual) in-game experience. The reverse is also true... an "out of the box" alt might be able to beat up a year-old "ebayed" char's ship _ MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
0raven0
Independent Fleet O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:32:00 -
[15]
Edited by: 0raven0 on 06/02/2007 17:32:02 You can easily beat the older players by specializing. Most of the older players end up cross training so that they are good with each races ships. All you have to do is specialize in one race and ship type and you can be on par with them in no time. Just specialize in say gallente battleships. Train battleship to level 5, all the skills you need to use T2 large energy weapons, and then train cap support skills as well as armor hardening and repairing skills and if you want to train drone skills. With a set of +3 implants and starting from the point that learning skills have finished being trained you can be sitting in a maxed out T2 fitted hyperion with amazing blasters and DPS that can play on the same level as the best in just 7.3 months. Not to say that you still can't own everyone a lot sooner like in 1.5 months but at 7.3 months are are pretty much maxed out and are one of the best. Its at that point your ganna need to find another ship to max out for and it will be a lot quicker and easier because you will have all the support skills down which take over half of that 7.3 months.
Or you don't even have to train up all those skills but instead train to use specific electronic warfare modules ect.. EVE gives you many options when it comes to combat. Older players often complain about how younger players have beaten them and its their own faults for not being smarter when it comes to tactics.
Also with invention all of the T2 prices will come down drastically closing the gap between the poorer noobs and the richer older players
when i started to reply nobody else had, it took me so long because I actually had to look at the training time for all the skills required to give you that 7.3 month time. So yeah that 7.3 month time is not random, its accurate.
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Alowishus
OctoberSnow Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:34:00 -
[16]
You can be as good but maybe not as diverse. You can train, for instance, to be a Blasterthron pilot and be as good as the fellow who was a good Blasterthron pilot two years ago but now is also a good Geddon pilot and a good industrialist as well. In certain areas you can hit a peak of diminishing return. Usually when this happens you move on to a new area. For older players, as CCP adds content, the skill tree gets wider but not always taller. This gives newer players a chance to have a tree that's just as tall but never will be as wide. That's life.
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Spix 'UK
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:44:00 -
[17]
I Came back to eve in 2006. April
& i have found it was alot easyer to make isk ... Eve became so easy - of course since then the dEVS keep nerfing missions here & there so its alot harder once again to make fast isk grrrr !!
but yer.. came back +4 implant set in no time.. was in a BC at 15days BS at 1.5 months & then from there I went back into learning skills such as hulls 5 repair 5 etc etc ,, it might not be the best choice some people rather go from frig to Cruiser.. & learn med turrets etc etc & slowly build up - I just went for BC / BS as soon as I could to do level 3s in - made more sense to me at the time
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Shanna Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:44:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Shanna Dawn on 06/02/2007 17:41:00 I find my third attempt gets me the character I want.
But not the one I deserve
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ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:46:00 -
[19]
I'm frankly pretty tired of people who only look at the end result (the level 60 if you like) - and not at the pleasure you gain from the journey.
If they have that attitude I'd rather not see them in EvE. Let them pick flowers in wow
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vinnyfardel
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shanna Dawn Edited by: Shanna Dawn on 06/02/2007 17:41:00 I find my third attempt gets me the character I want.
But not the one I deserve
Although it is hard to leave all that training time behind.
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Taram Caldar
Acheron Vanguard Armada The Makhai
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Milonia This issue keeps getting brought up by my friends that I try to recruit to the game.
They play "traditional" MMOs where you gain XP and you can powerlevel to endgame and a level cap and be just as good as older characters.
So I tell them about EVE's skill point system. They say, "So I create a character and I will NEVER be as good as the guy that has been playing for year or more? No thanks!"
How does everyone feel about this? I am new and only a month old so I kinda got dissapointed by hearing this point brought up as well.
Will I never be as good as older players? Or once someone trains skills for 6 months or a year they can start to compete with even older characters because the benefits start to get smaller with more skill time?
Like by the time people are years old all they can train are skills that take months to train and they gain a small benefit because of skills having a decreasing marginal rate of returns.
The new player is getting all the lower ranks trained quickly so they can gain the ability to do more in less time.
So they catch up in a way?
Does this make any sence? I need to have a counter to this argument.
The counter is as simple as it is complicated...
Basically you can't compare a skill based system like EVE to a level based system like, for example: EverQuest or WoW...
Why? Because in EVE your total skill points doesn't really tell the full story. You could have 3 million skill points totally dedicated to PVP Combat while another player has 15 million skill points totally dedicated to industry.
In Mining/Industry that 15mil SP player is going to be much better than you. However, in PVP/Combat you are going to be better than him. This is true in all aspects of the game. Lets take Combat trained characters, for example...
If a pilot trains their entire career around large ships (BS/Dreadnaught/Carriers) they may be very good at those areas. However, you can do the same in another area that doesn't take nearly as much skill but is still just as needed, effective, and fun in the game.
For example: there are players in my own corporation who have been playing for years and have scads of SP. but I'm a better covops pilot than most (if not all) of them. Because I dedicated to it and maxed out my skills for flying my covops ships. I'm now proceeding to finish up Recon ships as well then will move to interceptors and interdictors. Once I'm done (about 6 months down the road) I'll be as good or better than 90% of players out there in those same ship types. Why? Because I specialized in those areas while they may be more generalized.
In EVE there IS a finite ammt of skills that you can really train for any given role. So you CAN reach 'max level' (so to speak) in a given role that you choose.
No, you will never have as many skill points or be as diversified as a 3+ year veteran. (until you are one yourself, of course) but you CAN be as (or more) effective in a chosen area.
Skill based MMORPG's aren't about reaching 'the next level' They're about choosing a skill and training for it (and it's supporting skills).
Hope this helps!
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Valan
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch I'm frankly pretty tired of people who only look at the end result (the level 60 if you like) - and not at the pleasure you gain from the journey.
If they have that attitude I'd rather not see them in EvE. Let them pick flowers in wow
The instant gratification mob. Without being disparaging. He takes a look at EVE now and again, looks at the training times and just doesn't get it. He's actually obtained isk by other menas and then lost it in no time and then quit again.
He loves WoW. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
0raven0
Independent Fleet O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.02.06 17:59:00 -
[23]
Look at this for example Linkage he has a very wide variety of skills a heck of a lot of skill points and has been playing the game for a while now, but almost every skill is at level 4 or below with a few level 5s. Yes he can do a lot but it would not take long to be superior than him if you specialize in one field.
Or this character is a better example. Tons and tons of skillpoints and skills but they are all over the place. She specialized in frigates of all races instead of specializing in just one race allowing her to be an awsome pilot of lots of different ship classes. Linkage
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.06 18:21:00 -
[24]
Ooops, wrong subject to make a post about
This topic always leads to a heated debate, don't take it personally.
My take: Don't think of character progression as a linear thing, as it is in many other games. Eve is more like starting a game with a multiclass character. You can choose to specialise in one class (for example, Amarrian Interceptor Pilot), and is is possible to max that class. Once you do so, no other character in Eve, no matter how old, will be better skilled than you in that specific role. What you will find is that older players may be proficient in more roles, but there is an absolute cap on any of those roles.
It really depends on how you want to play. If you want to specialise in a specific 'class' you can get to the top quite quickly. If, however, you want to be a "jack of all trades", the older players are likely to always have an edge.
Get a taste for the game, pick a role, and specialise.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2007.02.06 19:02:00 -
[25]
The counter to the argument is in this video. This guy is flying a wet behind the ears character in a rifter and doing damn well at belt piracy, often solo.
Okay, so he's not a novice at playing EvE. And there are lots of other factors involved. But just because you don't have many skill points doesn't mean you can't do well competing against characters much older than yours.
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Forando
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.02.06 19:07:00 -
[26]
Keep in mind that there is a limit to how much skill you can actually utilize flying in example a Battlecruiser. You won't need Battleship skills for that, you won't need other faction ships skills for that, you will only need specialized skills for your chosen type of weaponry and so on. Yes there are players with loads of skill points you will never be able to compete against in the shear amount of skillpoints, but they can only fly one ship at a time.
It's an MMO, that means it's a social game and you will most likely be in corp with people who have been playing the game longer than you, be it player corps or NPC corps. Make good use of this, learn from them and team up with them - If you can't beat them, join em'!
But people who join EVE with the attitude that they want a 'end it all'-character, be the BESTAST EVAH PLYAR!!!.. ..won't succeed in that, as they have years of skills to compete against.
Fair or not fair, really up to the individual and motivation you want to meet the game with. And c'mon, skillpoints ain't everything: Some people can have loads of it and still fly a ship like crap, but they probably have fun doing it.
Enjoy, and fly safe..
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gfldex
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Posted - 2007.02.06 19:11:00 -
[27]
The big majority of chars in EvE is less then 3 month old. Ask your friend if he would stop to play the game when he crossed 3 month because it would be unfair to compete with newer chars.
--
Number of pilots that logged while I scrambled, bubbles or shooten them: 9.
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Roshan longshot
Gallente Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2007.02.06 19:12:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Valan
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
You can kill someone whose been here since day 1 with a character fresh in the pod. Skills make your life easier, nothing more. Now if you were to complain that getting ISK was easier back in the day, I won't argue with that.
I'm sorry did I understand you correctly? It used to be easier to get ISK?
If thats what you mean you have no idea, none what so ever.
No missions No high end rats Battleships got p4wn3d by NPC cruisers Ore prices were fixed Ore didn't respawn, finding a roid field became nearly impossible No complexes You went from cruiser to battleship, a huuge jump.
If you didn't mean that, the above is for anyone who does
QFT: It took a whole corp of 25 to mine 4-6 days a week 5-6 hours a night to get BS for the directors and CEO....
And you had to keep moving to find better belts to mine in...
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Ivonis
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Posted - 2007.02.06 19:26:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet The counter to the argument is in this video. This guy is flying a wet behind the ears character in a rifter and doing damn well at belt piracy, often solo.
Okay, so he's not a novice at playing EvE. And there are lots of other factors involved. But just because you don't have many skill points doesn't mean you can't do well competing against characters much older than yours.
I love that video.
Player skill > character skill. 'nuff said.
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Rejka
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Posted - 2007.02.06 20:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Milonia The new player is getting all the lower ranks trained quickly so they can gain the ability to do more in less time.
So they catch up in a way?
Does this make any sence? I need to have a counter to this argument.
Yep, as you said they catch up in a way. You might find interesting this read: How Many skillpoints to be competitive? |
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