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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2006.12.10 07:39:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Wiggy69 Edited by: Wiggy69 on 09/12/2006 22:32:04 Personally, I'd pick the Avatar over the others due to it's ability to fit, and permanently run, 3 capital armor repairers. Any sane pilot will have a Slave set + 8% armor implant and maxed tanking skills, making a mean tank (maybe around 800.000HP? Wouldn't want to work it out ) for anyone to come up against. Oh, and the 37.5% capacitor recharge rate bonus to everyone in your fleet.
Erebus can exceed 1 million armor hp.
~Thor Xian, Chief Administrator
"For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One."
Corp/Alliance Services |
Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.10 08:37:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: DrLogan It is all because of the ships bonus..Skills are no problem for a huge alliance..and the avatar has the only universal (good, sig radius is meh) bonus (cap regen bonus).
Cap bonus is quite useless in most circumstances.
As pointed out elsewhere the only place it is uber is for dreads and then it is REALLY uber.
Don't forget other capital ships, for example Archon can run a quad capital repairer tank in a properly structured gang if there's a titan involved.
Originally by: Thor Xian
Originally by: Wiggy69 Edited by: Wiggy69 on 09/12/2006 22:32:04 Personally, I'd pick the Avatar over the others due to it's ability to fit, and permanently run, 3 capital armor repairers. Any sane pilot will have a Slave set + 8% armor implant and maxed tanking skills, making a mean tank (maybe around 800.000HP? Wouldn't want to work it out ) for anyone to come up against. Oh, and the 37.5% capacitor recharge rate bonus to everyone in your fleet.
Erebus can exceed 1 million armor hp.
Avatar can go up to 1.6 million HP with decent omniresists giving it around 5 million "real" HP. You are #27 in queue to see this signature. |
Max Hardcase
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.10 08:45:00 -
[33]
I disagree on the sig res bonus being lousy, -37.5% sig res and tracking starts to become iffey @ fleet ranges with long range crystals and any kind of transversal.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2006.12.10 10:37:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Max Hardcase I disagree on the sig res bonus being lousy, -37.5% sig res and tracking starts to become iffey @ fleet ranges with long range crystals and any kind of transversal.
The sig radius bonus is the best of them imo.
The Ragnarok's sig alone drops to less than 700 with Titan 5 and Halo Set. I bet it can go even further down.
~Thor Xian, Chief Administrator
"For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One."
Corp/Alliance Services |
Kharakan
Amarr New World Disorders
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Posted - 2006.12.10 10:57:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Marcathonas Cap recharge. 37.5%, IIRC.
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That's my guess.
Picking it for the damage type doesn't sound right though. Considering most ships armor tank in fleets, and Minmatar assault ships have stupid-insane EM resists, you'd probably want explosive or kinetic instead.
However the avatar can have a simply insane tank now. Several million HP, hardened, and probably a cap armor rep as well? You aren't getting that sort of god-mode on a shield tanked Titan.
While Minnie AF's/HAC's may have stupid resists, it's quite possibly not enough to stop them from dying from the sheer damage of the DD.
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain (to Dark Shikari) HAHAHA I KNOW YOUR ACCOUUNT NAME TIME TO DIE
this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
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Alerean
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Posted - 2006.12.10 11:06:00 -
[36]
The real reason everyone picks Avatars, is because they're all nostalgic ex-homeworld players, Im afraid this is the best picture I could find at short notice:
<a href="http://home.wtal.de/host/shota003.jpg">Look on the right-hand side, familiar?</a>
Mothership for the Great Nebula missions, god I loved that game...
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.10 11:18:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Alerean Mothership for the Great Nebula missions, god I loved that game...
Ah yeah, it was awesome -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Sedai Hara
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Posted - 2006.12.10 11:45:00 -
[38]
A developer on EveTV talked about that they tried fitting a Avatar for insane HP. They used best Armor HP rigs, Armor implants (dont remember name) and maxed out skills. Well they ended up with about 1.8mil HP on the avatar. Just to kill that WITHOUT repairs and resistance will take a few days with dreadz, in that time i bet you will easely even BUILD a counter fleet.
Still, i think they choose what titan (like talking about a BS now) With teh thought of skills 1#, as well.. Cap ship V, dread V etc etc etc TAKES TIME. So i just bet they choose one for the majority of players in theallaince who may be able to pilot it...
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Bazman
Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.12.10 12:07:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: DrLogan It is all because of the ships bonus..Skills are no problem for a huge alliance..and the avatar has the only universal (good, sig radius is meh) bonus (cap regen bonus).
Cap bonus is quite useless in most circumstances.
As pointed out elsewhere the only place it is uber is for dreads and then it is REALLY uber.
I disagree, in a fleet battle, this will give Mega, Apoc, Arma pilots the chance to stay in the fight that much longer, as long as the battle lasts more than a couple of minutes. Most of these pilots will run dry firing a rack of guns after 2 or 3 minutes. Sig res or extra armour is probably better though, but cap bonus is far from useless -----
OMG READ TUXFORD!!!1 |
Fuglife
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.12.10 12:16:00 -
[40]
The avatar is the cap fix for the abbaddon! ---
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Pinoy
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.10 12:23:00 -
[41]
In fleet battle, Amaar titan offers something unique. In addition to the 37.5% cap fleet bonus that is very rarely used, amaar EM damage is the easiest to tank by armor tanked BS. This is a bad thing, but it also can be a good thing.
Any BS that fits 2 1600mm plates, 1 EM hardener + EANM can tank the 67k EM damage titan puts out. This wouldn't be true if that damage would be kinetic or explosive. You'd need much bigger tank than the mere 4 slots.
So you can outfit your BS fleet to stay put when your titan fires, and still be there at the end. While enemy might not nessesarly be prepared for this.
Reason why you might now want titan in the general gang of 200+ pilots is that there may be some idiot that'll warp to ya... uncloaking you.
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2006.12.10 18:10:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Pinoy In fleet battle, Amaar titan offers something unique. In addition to the 37.5% cap fleet bonus that is very rarely used, amaar EM damage is the easiest to tank by armor tanked BS. This is a bad thing, but it also can be a good thing.
Any BS that fits 2 1600mm plates, 1 EM hardener + EANM can tank the 67k EM damage titan puts out. This wouldn't be true if that damage would be kinetic or explosive. You'd need much bigger tank than the mere 4 slots.
So you can outfit your BS fleet to stay put when your titan fires, and still be there at the end. While enemy might not nessesarly be prepared for this.
Reason why you might now want titan in the general gang of 200+ pilots is that there may be some idiot that'll warp to ya... uncloaking you.
i missed the part where that's a good thing
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Kella DelRae
Ammu-Nation
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Posted - 2006.12.10 18:31:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Siakel Edited by: Siakel on 10/12/2006 06:41:53
Originally by: Audri Fisher for those who don't follow thsoap oper *cough* cor and alliance channel, who was the titans?
Ah, as far as I know BoB has one(Avatar?) ASCN has an Avatar, and now Lotka Volterra has an Avatar, too.
Damn I'm glad we left Catch... |
David Koresch
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.10 19:17:00 -
[44]
Give the Ragnarok a +5% gang target painter effectiveness per level tbfh --------------------------------- Carebearin' in a hi-sec near you! |
Gor Kraon
Minmatar Shadowclan
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Posted - 2006.12.10 20:50:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kharakan While Minnie AF's/HAC's may have stupid resists, it's quite possibly not enough to stop them from dying from the sheer damage of the DD.
Without some mods, yeah, they can't. But with a little help they can do crazy stuff.
EM hardener and 400 RT on a wolf gives 96.34% EM and 2271 armor. That means it can soak 62,049 EM damage in armor alone. Change it to tech 2, add plates or armor rigs and it just goes up fast...
No doubt a HAC with its much larger plate capacity can do alot more.
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Tunajuice
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.10 21:38:00 -
[46]
If the entire enemy fleet has to fit 1 or 2 EM hardeners just to survive the doomsday, you already won the fight. You just gave your fleet 30 whatever more cap (saving a cap mod, gaining your entire fleet 1 more slot) and cost the entire enemy fleet 1 or 2 slots in normally useless hardeners.
That's a pretty significant swing of power.
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Gor Kraon
Minmatar Shadowclan
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Posted - 2006.12.10 22:15:00 -
[47]
Yeah, hardening against an enemy titan isn't practical. But hardening your own strike force that can attack the enemy and survive the blast could be really good though.
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Auron Shadowbane
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Posted - 2006.12.10 22:31:00 -
[48]
I think it wasnt for the battle-value but for the time it saves when moving it (and other capital ships). whoever tried to move a capship several jumps (cap-jumps!) know what it means to wait for the recharge of the capships capacitor.
for a doomsday alone caldari and galente are maybe the best but ragnarok with maxed skills and the right warfare link (or a mini command ship with extra bonus on that link) and you drop your fleets signature by 50%.
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Breed Love
FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.12.10 22:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sedai Hara A developer on EveTV talked about that they tried fitting a Avatar for insane HP. They used best Armor HP rigs, Armor implants (dont remember name) and maxed out skills. Well they ended up with about 1.8mil HP on the avatar. Just to kill that WITHOUT repairs and resistance will take a few days with dreadz, in that time i bet you will easely even BUILD a counter fleet.
Still, i think they choose what titan (like talking about a BS now) With teh thought of skills 1#, as well.. Cap ship V, dread V etc etc etc TAKES TIME. So i just bet they choose one for the majority of players in theallaince who may be able to pilot it...
Totally wrong, a bunch of dreads would chew through unresisted 1.8mil hp in a matter of minutes.
Originally by: Wrangler We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want *both* anti-social *and* social players to grief each other!
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Taipan Gedscho
Taipan Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.10 23:29:00 -
[50]
not that i know anything about it, but my bet is, its the slot layout and the amarrstyle of armor resistances.
this allows for a real nasty tank, which is necessary to keep up the cap recharge bonus for the fleet as long as possible.
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Cividari
Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.10 23:34:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Taipan Gedscho not that i know anything about it, but my bet is, its the slot layout and the amarrstyle of armor resistances.
this allows for a real nasty tank, which is necessary to keep up the cap recharge bonus for the fleet as long as possible.
Well, Titans are abit like carriers, they work just as well sitting at a POS so I think its more about the gang bonus and that cap bonus has got to be uber in dread fleets.
Oh and I just <3 your sig
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.11 00:25:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Akita T on 11/12/2006 00:27:48
Avatar armortank (all relevant skills assumed maxed out, titan L5 too)
Base Capacitor: 140,625 recharge in 3164 sec ; peak recharge 111.11 cap/second Base armor HP: 437,500 (over 650k with slave set) Base armor resists: 60/20/25/35
3 rig slots BUT NO CLUE as to wether it can or can not fit rigs at all (god help you all if they can)
8 lowslots, 5 midslots I'm going to go out on a limb here and just ASSUME there's nothing better to fit in the mids other than cap rechargers, for the obvious reasons (hello, almost 53 minutes full cap recharge, bad). And seing how much these babies cost, we can safely assume you're only going to get the best possible... so... Draclira's/Chelm's for -36% cap recharge time, and screw the costs. Or, is it really needed ?
New cap recharge time : 3164 * 0.64^5 = 339.7 seconds (under 6 minutes for full recharge, about 5 for jump) New peak cap recharge: 1034.8 cap per second
Capital Armor Repairer I uses 2400 energy every 28.5 sec at L1, every 22.5 sec at L5 So, at most 106.6 cap/second... you could run 8 of them 24/7 with the setup you have 'till now, and only use 853.3 cap/second and still have 181.4 per second excess at peak recharge... let's just say, cap ain't a problem anymore. At all. Theoretically, you could repair 3413 armor/second this way, but it would be silly... running only 4 of them plus 4 best hardners is better in all conceivable ways.
Hmmz, apparently, you can easily run 4x cap repairers and only need to use Cap Recharger IIs in mids for that. So if you fit the expensive officer ones... WHAT WOULD YOU FIT IN MIDS OTHER THAN RECHARGERS, IF CAP WOULD BE NO PROBLEM ? Quite frankly, I have no clue what would be useful instead.
So, all 8 lows can easily be dedicated for tank. Personally, I'd say 2 of each best (64% resists) except EM, a SINGLE active EM plus ONLY ONE single capital repairer (426.6 armor/second repaired at L5 capital armor repair skill).
END RESULT:
650k HP, 85.60/87.22/88.02/89.62 resists 5.24 mil average damage resisted: 4.5/5.0/5.4/6.2 mil vs each resist DPS completely absorbed: 3445 average 2963/3338/3561/4109 vs the four resists
PERMA-tank, cap holds steady at around 75% or even higher, stop the tank and jump in less than 2 minutes. ___
P.S. I don't even want to think what "could be" if you can fit armor rigs on this behemoth... or even worse, cap recharge rigs. _ My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Taipan Gedscho
Taipan Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.11 14:45:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 11/12/2006 00:27:48 WHAT WOULD YOU FIT IN MIDS OTHER THAN RECHARGERS, IF CAP WOULD BE NO PROBLEM ? Quite frankly, I have no clue what would be useful instead.
ok, i have an idea. that prolly makes 70% of th eve population scream "DONT MIX ARMOR AND SHIELD TANKS".... BUT!.... the only reason why you dont mix tanks, is because you want to get one type to its optimum. so if you reached that goal, with only half the slots, you could use the remaining slots for the other type.
in this case, some shield hardeners/rechargers. why? because a titan has a whole ****load of hp, so it prolly makes a difference?
on the other hand... if you really bring it to battle or have it uncloaked at its SS, why not fit some more cap equipment, and reserve one or two highslots for remote repairers, to keep your escort happy?
all just thoughts. i have no fleet experience, and my biggest ship is a dominix ;)
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2006.12.11 15:29:00 -
[54]
to whomever said it takes a dread days to get through 1.8mil armor: the average dread can kill off about 7mil unhardennerd armor hp
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Borasao
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Posted - 2006.12.11 15:39:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Deathbarrage to whomever said it takes a dread days to get through 1.8mil armor: the average dread can kill off about 7mil unhardennerd armor hp
My tech1 Merlin can kill off 1b amount of unhardened armor hp given enough time. It's rate that matters but you didn't mention any timeframe. How long would it take your average dread to kill off 7mil unhardennerd armor hp? or did you mean in one day?
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2006.12.11 16:08:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Deathbarrage to whomever said it takes a dread days to get through 1.8mil armor: the average dread can kill off about 7mil unhardennerd armor hp
My tech1 Merlin can kill off 1b amount of unhardened armor hp given enough time. It's rate that matters but you didn't mention any timeframe. How long would it take your average dread to kill off 7mil unhardennerd armor hp? or did you mean in one day?
sorry my bad, takes a dread 1hour average to kill off 7bill of unhardenerd armor
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Liam Fremen
Gallente Global Isk Network
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Posted - 2006.12.11 17:47:00 -
[57]
I made an extensive testing about Carriers tanking, the best result (tested with lot of ppl of my corp and friends on test server just with "affordable" equip) was to use the med slot you needed for the armortank, the remain was used for Invul field t2 or better.
This is why if you tank on armor you just "waste" your med slot for a long time beafore your enemy reach the armor, the more time they spend for reach the armor the more cap you will have at the begin of the tanking and less cap they will have.
This is just a tactical reason :) then in low slot if you make some count on capital armor repairs is not always "good" to place extreme resistance, the hp are a tons and you can sustain a lot of repper (3 capital armor repair for 15 minutes in my nidhoggur, that with resist makes 1870 true dps already counting resistance)
Avatar can sustain at least 5 of them while using 1 internal force field (who the hell would be so DUMB to not use a damage control that give you near 70% hull resist??? on so much hull???) so 1 low slot is gone for sure 100%.
Then you have 7 low, i think that 2 eanm will be good, just for overall tanking obviously true sansha or super powwa named one, and then, you have 5 slot, you can fit 5 capital repper, and you get a shiny 2000 "raw" dps repaired each second, then you must add your resistance that with 2 eanm and damage control counting t2 stuff is average of 64% so 3280 tankable dps that you regen each second.
As you can see is nothing of amazing, the problem is always the same of all the capital ship, the fleet around it don't wait until the flagship explode :) they fight :) and if the fire is concentrated on the "flagship" all the whole fleet have the chance to keep the maximum damage output while reducing the enemy one by killing them.
I tryed this by deploying my Nidhoggur in battle, well, everyone just locked and shoted me, (about 9 ppl mixed between bs/bc and frigs) well i was under dampener, under heavy fire, what you want, but my 4 man gang was able to shot down 4 of them and the other moved away while my fighter were in the bay waiting for a more tought moment :)
Capital ships attract fire, the fleet concentrate on them, and they must survive the time needed for the fleet to destroy the attacker :)
This is realy true on carriers beacause you CAN'T ignore the damage of 10-12 fighters on your bs/bc, you will die if you don't warp or kill the fighters
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Colonel Drego
Caldari Angels of the Apocolypse
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Posted - 2006.12.11 18:23:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Colonel Drego on 11/12/2006 18:24:21 I saw a BoB Ragnarok on the test server not too long ago. As far as I know it wasn't spawned for them either, as it got to the FFA via cryosonal field.
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.11 18:32:00 -
[59]
Because amarr in capital ships have alot of armor tank+alot of cap+its one of the cheaper ones to build and yes because its gold and its doomsday is blue __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. |
Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.11 19:30:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Colonel Drego Edited by: Colonel Drego on 11/12/2006 18:24:21 I saw a BoB Ragnarok on the test server not too long ago. As far as I know it wasn't spawned for them either, as it got to the FFA via cryosonal field.
You didn't know BoB has two?
...well you do now. Their Ragnarok isn't in use most prolly since the pilot is still training skills and messing with the fit on SiSi. You are #27 in queue to see this signature. |
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