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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:29:00 -
[1]
The changes to the character creation process coming with Revelations on Tuesday has been the subject of much discussion. What's changing, why, and just who is going to benefit from the increase in skill points given to new characters are only a few of the topics of discussion.
Skellibjalla is the Dev that's been working on the improved character creation process, as well as the tutorial changes to cover the new system. He has also authored an in-depth blog with more information than you can shake a stick at. Not quite the length of War & Peace, but close enough when it comes to a Dev Blog.
Also highlighted are additions and changes to the New Player Experience.
So, what are you waiting for? Check out the Character Creation and The EVE New Player Experience Dev Blog.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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Canine Fiend
Minmatar Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:35:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Canine Fiend on 27/11/2006 00:36:11 Uhm, first (beaten by the !) ?! Also, can someone please figure out what I need to do to make a hauler alt right from the start now?
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"Stay up north boy, we don't play with training wheels down south." |
Pellaeon DuGalle
Caldari Deep Black Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:35:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Pellaeon DuGalle on 27/11/2006 00:48:42 Ahh....the long awaited blog
Great blog. Definatly will reassure many nooblets they won't won't be left behind. Pity I won't be getting 800k or so points, but I'm just greedy
If charactor creation is as good as it sounds, I'll be spamming my friends with 14-day offers
------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible." |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:36:00 -
[4]
After testing the new system, I must say that it is a killer improvement.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:38:00 -
[5]
That's pretty cool. I'm well over 800k SP, but that addresses every concern people raised.
Well done to the devs!!!
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Ralus
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:38:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ralus on 27/11/2006 00:38:31 ooo um... forth?
EDIT: Nice changed, and i'm glad lower sp chars will get free sp so there up the the same level.
plus having tested it on sisi the new player creation system rocks too
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Taralesk Inshani
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:43:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Taralesk Inshani on 27/11/2006 00:43:18 Holy crap.. it IS epic!
Edit: IBDS .
Quote: Oh, yeah, what are you gonna do? Release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you?
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:52:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 27/11/2006 00:53:54 I thought that that was a nice blog, because it shed a lot of light on the process development instead of just saying that something is going to happen. Could we get some more of these types of blogs (obviously not that long) - especially dealing with ship balancing, POSes and other gameplay mechanics? I think it'd be fascinating to know what kind of approaches a designer takes when thinking about changing these things...
Also, on character creation: Why do the military schools show images of ground combat? I'm a proud graduate of the Federal Navy Academy and I don't seem to have any skill points in small arms or ground vehicles. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Sgt Blade
Imperial Space Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:55:00 -
[9]
i think thats a decent change to the character creation.
ISC Are Recruiting |
Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:07:00 -
[10]
I think epic doesn't quite describe it, that blog is huge (thank you).
Last Weeks Signature |
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Rechal
Hedion University
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:10:00 -
[11]
Hooray! A 37,000 SP hauling alt like me can still live after the Revelations update!
(Seriously I think the new character creation system looks awesome and will help get new players into the game.) I'm getting my master's degree in Eve at Hedion University while hauling across the galaxy! |
Tokka Konnair
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:13:00 -
[12]
New char gen well and good but i realy think they should of been starting new players with all the learning skills on creation already. Preferably marked with a large sign saying "Train ME". |
Gilgamoth
Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Gilgamoth on 27/11/2006 01:21:46 Makes me want to go and create another character, now if only EVE allowed 5 Character slots
Regards,
Gil
Edit: 1am Typo's 4TL
Future Falcon EVE Tools - Project Leader.
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aeti
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:25:00 -
[14]
not going to be able to clear a charslot before the patch, but one thing:
does your session still timeout if you spend ages tinkering with how your char looks, and then loose all your options + end up rather frustrated :/
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:30:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 27/11/2006 01:33:53
Quote: Like a summary of a lifetime û A prologue to life.
Why not take this one step further?
Specifically, why not show the player the timeline they're constructing for themselves?
I'm not sure exactly where you'd display it, but... how about this, for example:
You start with a blank timeline. In the first step, you choose a race, say it's Caldari like in the example. The timeline begins "83: You were born in the year 83 to Caldari parents...". You have the option to click on the first "83" (default graduation age is 25) and vary your DOB within certain limits (can't be younger than 21 or older than 40, for example).
In the second step, you choose to be an Achura. The first entry becomes "83: You were born in the year 83 to Caldari parents of Achura bloodstock,"
In the third step you choose to be male. The first entry becomes "83: You were born in the year 83 to Caldari parents of Achura bloodstock, the second of three sons". Drop-downs allow you to vary your position in the family if you so choose; otherwise it's randomised.
In the fourth step you choose your attributes. A new entry is added: "89: You entered the State's rigorous schooling system, which would be your home for the next twelve years. You showed great intelligence but were somewhat unpopular with your peers." Schooling 6-18, with a citation for your highest stat(s) and a mark-down for your lowest stat(s).
In the fifth step, you choose your ancestry. In this case, the Stargazers. A new entry is added: "92: Your teachers note that the legacy of your Stargazer ancestors is making itself clear, most strongly in tests of recall and spatial awareness."
In the sixth step, you choose your career - military, here. A new entry is added: "101: You graduate from the State education system and opt to pursue a career as a military capsuleer, enrolling in the State War Academy." (For older characters, there needs to be a break here so your date of graduation and date of enrolment are separated by the difference between 83 and your actual birth date)
In the seventh step, you choose your specialisation - special forces. New entry: "103: You elect to join a Special Forces unit and spend several years flying in covert operations and running down enemies of the State."
In the eighth step you choose your appearance - I don't think there's anything amenable to a timeline here
In the ninth and final step you choose your name. Final entry: "108: You graduate from the State War Academy with full honours. You are now a freelance capsuleer, beholden to no man. The galaxy is your oyster to do with as you please..."
This is how the final timeline would look for this particular character:
83: You were born in the year 83 to Caldari parents of Achura bloodstock, the second of three sons 89: You entered the State's rigorous schooling system, which would be your home for the next twelve years. You showed great intelligence but were somewhat unpopular with your peers. 92: Your teachers note that the legacy of your Stargazer ancestors is making itself clear, most strongly in tests of recall and spatial awareness. 101: You graduate from the State education system and opt to pursue a career as a military capsuleer, enrolling in the State War Academy. 103: You elect to join a Special Forces unit and spend several years flying in covert operations and running down enemies of the State. 108: You graduate from the State War Academy with full honours. You are now a freelance capsuleer, beholden to no man. The galaxy is your oyster to do with as you please...
Would be a nice addition, IMO - gives you a sense of your position in the world as you start the game
(Incidentally, in the "Attributes" screen, the stat options are listed Int/Wil/Mem/Per/Cha, but in the summary in the bottom bar they're always "Cha/Int/Mem/Per/Wil", which makes it tricky to figure out what's adding to what, particularly as the main buttons don't list your current stats and the
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Valator Uel
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:55:00 -
[16]
Wow, what a long blog... but really cool! Thanks a bunch for taking your time to write it up!
Oh, and now that I think about it... eve-radio lemmings just got deadlier -----------------------------------------------
leave my siggy alone Eldo! Grrr |
Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:05:00 -
[17]
Please rework the racial descriptions as well to list good and bad sides of the races more clearly, and avoid creating oversiplified images of them. I think right now the descriptions are extremly biased and instantly create an oversimplified view of the races that kind of ends up being: Caldari are hard working and patriotic, Minmatar are escaped Slaves, Amarrians are Religious nuts and Gallente are just French. Who would you pick? Nobody ever even mentions that there is no such thing as freedom or human rights in the Caldari State...
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Sevarus James
Minmatar Meridian Dynamics Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:07:00 -
[18]
Excellent blog and reasoning behind the changes.
As a player who actually retired the original account for r/l reasons...then returned to start 'me' and work with the newer learning skills and train with more focus, I can say that this new character creation path and skills is something I wish that I could have used from the beginning, but am glad nonetheless that the new graduates will be able to use going forward.
Also as a CEO of a corporation, I can really appreciate these changes as it will allow new members even MORE ability to do things in the corp besides the 'train for tackler' that is so common a response to the new pilots.
Updated Linux Desktop+EVE+EVE-TV |
Oedus Caro
Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:22:00 -
[19]
I have just two brief comments: first, I like the new changes very much. However, and second, you nearly killed me, calling it the "New Player Experience" or "NPE" - anyone who used to play Galaxies will undoubtedly know what I'm talking about.
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Serenity Steele
Rearden Steele Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:23:00 -
[20]
That was one looooong read, Nice to see the level of detail and thinking that went into the character creation and the blog.
.. Not that every blog should be that long
Eve Strategic Maps - Outpost Alert
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:24:00 -
[21]
I'm happily stunned. A great epic dev blog. No other game would put so much into justifing one new feature. Indeed many do not justify at all, and at best give one sentence about it in a laid back dev chat.
The devs put me in awe yet again with the depth and thought put into their analysis and work. Even if it fails, I will have no complaints, as the devs clearly tried harder and longer and with more skill than I could have. ~ ~ ~ Signature removed. Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions - Petwraith |
Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:34:00 -
[22]
All I can say is nice, good work .
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Verone
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:57:00 -
[23]
Well, I've been pretty opposed to this idea even after reviewing it many times over, very closely.
After reading this blog, I can safely say I was wrong.
Obviously a lot of thought and effort has gone into this and Skellibajellybaby has gotten RSI from typing the longest blog in history to back it up.
Nice work, should be good to see it arriving on TQ.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.27 03:01:00 -
[24]
Very nice blog Skellibjalla!
I love this part the most:
Originally by: Blog ...advantage in EVE is not about luck but skill and conscious choices.
You seem to be much smarter than the devs who created the ECM system, the T2 lottery, the buddy raffle, and the new scan probe system!
...and that's it for me. I will now be killed by my master and replaced by a new 800k SP research slave instead.
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.27 03:11:00 -
[25]
After actually having tried this system out on the test server I'd like to congratulate all who thought this out and worked on it. It's a huge advance over what I started with under Castor, to the point that it almost seems like a different game. When I started I had no idea what most selections did, I just guessed and hoped it was for the best. Later on when I realized that many had been poor decisions based on lack of lack of good information this annoyed me more than a little bit. After trying it out on the test server this should no longer be the case. Every option is clearly explained, as well as what each stat does and what it all means. In addition, the skills added are simply the kinds of things that a n00b with any kind of brain or getting good advice would instantly head to the nearest school base to buy. Under the Kali system, what you get is a character creation process that explains your choices clearly so you make good ones, while adding skills that enable the new character to get out and do something with some level of character competence basically instantly, so the "watch eve" process is lessened. This is a good thing and should be welcomed.
Raptor and Ares Fix |
SonOTassadar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 03:49:00 -
[26]
All devblogs from here on out that are not as thorough as this one shall have to be rewritten.
Seriously, this blog may not affect me at all, but I read every word of it, and it's the best one I've ever seen, bar none. ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standar Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless |
Driven
Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea
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Posted - 2006.11.27 04:34:00 -
[27]
This looks really cool. Nice changes and should help new players a lot.
Plus empire high-sec gankers won't have to waste any time training up to be useful. They can gank from day 1!
I BUY TECH II AMMO BPOs |
Nate D
Naughty Ambitious Temptatious Endeavours
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Posted - 2006.11.27 04:37:00 -
[28]
It's really a good blog. Well laid out and contains some great answers to the questions and accusations that have been flying around.
I am very glad that new characters will be getting some love because I remember being extremely lost as a nub.
-NateÖ --- Voice Comms are Coming ...SoonÖ [Click] |
Annya Avishnaya
Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.27 04:48:00 -
[29]
Originally by: SonOTassadar All devblogs from here on out that are not as thorough as this one shall have to be rewritten.
Seriously, this blog may not affect me at all, but I read every word of it, and it's the best one I've ever seen, bar none.
very much qft! Very nicely written, worded and presented for sure.
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Yrth Wyndynfyr
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Posted - 2006.11.27 04:50:00 -
[30]
As with all things, the more I know, the more I find I do not know...
If I started as a "Miner" after the the patch, and that calls for a skill of "Mining" trained to level 5... but because I was created pre-patch, my miner skill started at 3 and I trained it to 4...
As I understand it, if I am under th 800K limit, my Miner will grant me an upgrade to mining to level 5... but, if I am over that magical 800K level, I am stuck with level 4 mining and a weeks worth of training to get it to the point a new character starts with...
Is this correct?
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Alastorr Frost
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2006.11.27 05:11:00 -
[31]
Just want to add my 2 isk to this...
First: Well done CCP! I really like the changes thats coming and improving the NPE is a bonus (Can anyone say "MORE TARGETS")
Secondly: What a nice, long and informative blog. I think ALL blogs from now on should be written like this one.
IMHO, this upgrade is going to ROCK! I might just have to get me an extra account...
Regards,
Frosty
Thanks to MAXSuicide for this nice Sig |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.27 05:38:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Skellibjalla we must not let the abusers hold back our improvements to the game, or dictate our direction. That would be the ultimate abuse.
thats so right on so many levels even totally beyond character creation.
excellent blog, i enjoyed it immensely.
1000% awesome guide to logging out |
Sha'Uri Dark
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.27 06:21:00 -
[33]
Wow what a great blog. If this amount of information and in depthness was in every blog I think there'd be a lot less whining on the forums. Possibly because all the kids would have fallen asleep 1/4 of the way through but, meh it's passed their bedtime anyway. ------------------------------------------------- As a Freelancer the thoughts and opinions contained within this post are my own. Don't like them feel free not to complain to me about them. |
Charon Gonzales
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Posted - 2006.11.27 07:14:00 -
[34]
skills and sp amount arent the only problem. How many of us have made a wrong choice of attributes due to our experience with other RPG's and then after a long while cursed it to ground ?
i hope new system points out the priority of attribute focus, cause without deep knowlage of EvE no noob knows it and in end he, like many of us, may curse the day he made those choces.
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Dao 2
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 07:19:00 -
[35]
**** that is long stuff ;p
i think every char under 810k sp should have 800k sp added to them, nust just until 800k but whatever they have +800k ;p
gives them something since theyve been playing ><
and anyone under 1.6mil gets auto boosted to 1.6 mil ;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Rillian
Black Lance Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 08:12:00 -
[36]
WOW thats a blog and ahalf
cheers CCP
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Lady Zirconia
Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 08:12:00 -
[37]
Well,
Firstly, I think the NPE looks great. I know how confusing it was for me when I first joined, so I applaud the changes to the process - the transparency of choices as well as the evening-out in SPs so that everyone gets more-or-less the same. The unfairness of SPs at character creation was as matter of fact something I realized was happening and was quite upset about at the time, so I am happy its finally being fixed.
(Now the rant.)
However, the idea of choosing 800k as the level of standardization I totally totally oppose! And your rationalization for giving new players 1 or 2 level 5 skills is weak to the extreme. You try to justify it with the explanation for universities and teaching specialization, but last I checked universities do not pump out graduates at the peak of their careers with nothing more to learn from the real world in a particular skill.
When I joined there was actually some mystique to level 5 skills - because you had none. Now, think of the psychology of lvl 5 to the new player - it will be nothing special because they will have started with 2 already. You'll be instilling that jaded view of lvl 5's which veterans have, in the new player base. Why on earth would you willing do that?
You also claim to trying to create a level player field and you aspire to fairness. However, by setting the limit of 800k and creating unappreciative new players, you now have to "compensate" a group of players for past wrongs - but what you dont realize that you arent helping anyone really, you are just creating new victims. The poor sods who have just hit their first million SP (for most new players this used to be an important milestone) or have 850k SP will be the victims of this "compensation". What about the older players who _were_ victims of the previous unfair system, only to be made victims of the new unfair system. 800k is not a small number of SP considering it encompasses 2 lvl 5 skills.
Do what you want, justify it how you want - but the 800k limit only helps a select number of players picked rather arbitrarily, it doesnt uphold any ideals of fairness and I believe it will actually change the psychology of the new player....for the worse.
Sorry, for the rant, but I happen to feel very strongly about it and couldnt keep my much shut even though I seem to be the only one on this thread who doesnt think the new system doesnt have its flaws. And moreover considering its the day before the publish, I have no illusions that this is the way it will be regardless.
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.27 08:30:00 -
[38]
That was a very good blog. Informative, well-constructed and comprehensive. If only NPE was on this level when I started. ---
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.27 08:51:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/11/2006 08:55:23 I believe that to be the longest blog in the history of ccp.
It was very good. Lots of good and detailed information! And good move on compensating people with less than 800k skillpoints, you probably are right about them getting a bit angry otherwise. :)
Originally by: Lady Zirconia
Sorry for the rant, but I happen to feel very strongly about it and couldnt keep my much shut even though I seem to be the only one on this thread who doesnt think the new system doesnt have its flaws. And moreover considering its the day before the publish, I have no illusions that this is the way it will be regardless.
I can understand you think its unfair compared to how it used to be, and now newbies will have some level 5 skills. I dont think its the end of the world. I have probably 40 level 5 skills now... so what if a newbie gets 1 or 2? :) --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Lady Zirconia
Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 09:06:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/11/2006 08:55:23 I can understand you think its unfair compared to how it used to be, and now newbies will have some level 5 skills. I dont think its the end of the world. I have probably 40 level 5 skills now... so what if a newbie gets 1 or 2? :)
And that is exactly the type of jadedness which happens to old players. Its not a criticism, I am the same. However, just because us old-timers see level 5 skills like that, doesnt mean new players should be punished or deprived of that first magical moment when you run to your friends and brag about your level 5 Gunnery or whatever.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.11.27 09:12:00 -
[41]
Thank you for the excellent blog, Skellibjalla.
At first glance into the revamped char creation on SiSi, I'd say that you really reached what you guys and girls aimed for. Yes, I still remember the talk at the Fanfest '04.
Two thumbs up!
That I don't like the ready to farm trial alts is another topic you touched in the blog too. And it is my personal opinion. To bad you had to remove the first 20 'Wow, look what I achieved!' points in a pilot's career. *eg*
You dropped a huge ball into the storyline/background team's yard. Now let's see how that (currently lifeless) part of EVE develops. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
ZoRzEr
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.27 09:21:00 -
[42]
Looking good.
Yarrbbq, Yarrdware and Yarrsters ZoRzEr |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 09:37:00 -
[43]
I approve of these changes.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Blacklight
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.27 09:42:00 -
[44]
That's a tremendous blog, very well written and it is a real joy to get more of an insight into the background of why something has been developed alongside how something has been developed.
Clearly an enormous amount of work has gone into setting up the new character creation system and having tested it on Sisi I can say that it works well and is certainly an improvement over the old system.
Good job, well done!
Blog
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Smagd
Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.27 09:55:00 -
[45]
That blog itself was a work of art.
I started reading it, found it interesting enough to read it some more in spite of finding the scrollbar only a third down, realized somewhere between 4.1.4 and 4.1.5 that this was a cleverly disguised TECHNICAL PRESENTATION (wow you're good with words) and in 5. you explain just how you made that possible by reversing its order.
Hope you're not too mad if I try to borrow that trick for business purposes if I can. Very clever.
Additionally, I'd like to say that it made me want to create a new character, and research just exactly how bad my own initial choices were --
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Adam C
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:14:00 -
[46]
this seems to me as a alternative to skill queing* ? for new charactors that is
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:37:00 -
[47]
Excellent blog. FireFoxx80 gives his stamp of approval.
Good to see you've not screwed over us old timers; or equally those who create a character today only to find it's outdated tomorrow (though you might need to explain to them where the 730,000 skillpoints came from).
A nice and long, and well thought out blog
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
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Skellibjalla
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:40:00 -
[48]
Thank you all.
I am thrilled over your responses and that you all seem to find answers to your questions. And of course that you appreciate the sneak peek into the design process. We are pretty serious about this and it can become pretty agonizing.
One thing I want to note specifically: Thanks to everyone that tested and provided feedback on the test server. It was crucial in helping us to decide how to fairly implement the Revelations skill point compensation. Props to Oveur for holding his finger on the pulse there. We more or less implemented exactly what a part of the community suggested and simply adjusted it to fit the background of the characters. The community is really the entity most suited to judge what is fair for its members and all we had to do was to react quickly once we decided to run with it.
We only just finished programming the procedure for this yesterday (for real) at the same time that I finished the blog - It will take over 9 hours to run!
PS. Good idea Joerd Toastius, a family background template - I like!
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Adam Reed
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:43:00 -
[49]
Blimey, you don't often get a change this big that doesn't prompt at least a few moans and rants. I guess you must have got it right CCP, good work. -------------
"I don't mean to sound cruel or harsh, but I am, so that's how it comes out." |
Ysolde Xen
Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:45:00 -
[50]
/me appaluds one of the best Devblogs ever.
-----
It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong. |
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Hurf Durf
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:58:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Hurf Durf on 27/11/2006 10:58:37 Stuff like this is why I'm resubbing. Thanks a ton. :)
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Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:04:00 -
[52]
ôôCharacters get skills that strictly originate from their cultural background û Amarr and Gallente are armor oriented, Caldari and Minmatar shield oriented, etc. û Any cross-cultural overlap is as EVE design dictates.ö
Err Gallante have had passive shields in there cultural for over 3 years now its even in the news. I thought Eve was all about players making the story and cultural background.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:19:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Taralesk Inshani Edit: IBDS
Yeah it is pretty **** awesome.
I like it!
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:22:00 -
[54]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 27/11/2006 11:23:30
Longest. Blog. Ever.
Now we see why the tutorial is so huge.
Seriously though, this is great stuff. I've introduced a lot of people to EVE, and I've had my share of successes and failures at luring people into the game.
Generally, I've only been reasonably successful with people who are patient enough to go through the whole tutorial and deal with a few weeks of training before they really get into things. Some of my more impatient friends seemed to really like the game but didn't have the patience to get through the "training phase", and ended up being distracted by another game before they really got a chance to experience what EVE has to offer.
Very impressive; perhaps with this new system I can give a second go at pulling in some of my more impatient buddies.
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:53:00 -
[55]
Great Blog!
But would have been even better, if it would have been published a bit earlier (or if Kali^^Revelations would be deployed later). Then it would have been easier to really test it.
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Zarch AlDain
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:53:00 -
[56]
Nice blog. The idea sounds good - It may be too late but I would like to suggest a sliding scale rather than just bumping everyone to 800k though.
i.e. if currentSP < 1.6 mill then targetSP is 800k+currentSP/2
So if you just hit 800k now then you will go to 1.2 mill, if you just hit 1 mill you will go to 1.3, etc.
This way it's less of an abrupt 'chop off' and people who have been playing a week or two and nearly have 800k won't feel so hard done by.
(And no I have no chars anywhere near that level - so I get no benefit either way :( )
Zarch AlDain
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:18:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Noriath Nobody ever even mentions that there is no such thing as freedom or human rights in the Caldari State...
If the test server was working right now I'd quote you the exact passage where it says that in the racial description in step 1.
Originally by: Lady Zirconia giving new players 1 or 2 level 5 skills is weak to the extreme. You try to justify it with the explanation for universities and teaching specialization, but last I checked universities do not pump out graduates at the peak of their careers with nothing more to learn from the real world in a particular skill.
Any GOOD university will ensure that its graduates know everything they will ever need to know about the fundamental theoretical and practical principles of their chosen specialisations. From there they have a good foundation to go on and learn the more advanced and esoteric stuff themselves. This is pretty much exactly mirrored by the revamp - you spec in Mining, so you get Mining V. The school (being one of the 12 best in the entire cluster) teaches you everything about the fundamentals of mining, plus the basics of more advanced stuff that you can learn more about in the field.
Originally by: Pottsey ôôCharacters get skills that strictly originate from their cultural background û Amarr and Gallente are armor oriented, Caldari and Minmatar shield oriented, etc. û Any cross-cultural overlap is as EVE design dictates.ö
Err Gallante have had passive shields in there cultural for over 3 years now its even in the news. I thought Eve was all about players making the story and cultural background.
That's more like the cultural foreground, and in any case it's the Gallente capsuleers' culture, not the background culture of the Gallente race. At a traditional, "universities teaching what they believe to be core principles" level, Gallente = armour tank. It's only once Gallente pilots get exposed to the real world that they find all the snazzy tricks that people like you have dreamed up ;)
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:34:00 -
[58]
Quote: Of these 800.000 skill points, 512.000 are derived from two level 5 skills (rank 1) that each character gets as a part of his school’s career specialization.
This seems not to be true in all cases. The combination Caldari - Military - Special Forces has only one lvl5 skill, which is a rank 2 skill (missile bombardement). Amarr-Military-Special Forces has only one rank 1 lvl5-Skill, but 5 rank 2 lvl4 skills.
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:37:00 -
[59]
Originally by: aeti not going to be able to clear a charslot before the patch, but one thing:
does your session still timeout if you spend ages tinkering with how your char looks, and then loose all your options + end up rather frustrated :/
Yes, I just had a session timeout on Sisi.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Helison
Quote: Of these 800.000 skill points, 512.000 are derived from two level 5 skills (rank 1) that each character gets as a part of his schoolÆs career specialization.
This seems not to be true in all cases. The combination Caldari - Military - Special Forces has only one lvl5 skill, which is a rank 2 skill (missile bombardement). Amarr-Military-Special Forces has only one rank 1 lvl5-Skill, but 5 rank 2 lvl4 skills.
Quote: This helped us to come to the conclusion that the right thing to do was to give people one to two level 5 skills (depending on the rank of the skill) and a decent spread of level 4 skills, appropriate to the specialization that the player chooses. This background element played a huge part in this decision û Schools are only believable when they teach something of significance, and now ours do.
:)
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Freaky Bare
Minmatar Blueprint Haus
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:57:00 -
[61]
How often does an official company communication include the phrase "****ing in the wind?" I DO love this game.
I think the new changes are great. My character is just about to 2 million SP. I cannot take advantage of this with my main, however I can now have a mining ALT and an industrial ALT without the previous agony of deciding NOT to train my Main.
Seperately, I think this will have a huge impact on players on the Trial. The 1st two weeks are currently rather boring.
Now if they can just give me a face!
I am not an Alt, I am punctuation. |
Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:16:00 -
[62]
First off, good Blog Skellibjalla, read the whole thing and several parts a few times... For the most part, the changes to the Character creation or NPE sound good.
I understand that when ever you pick a number, whether it is 20, 200K or 800K Sp, someone is going to complain... why 800K why not 1600K or what ever... I am not here to complain about the total, but about the individual skills...
It is my opinion that regardless of the path taken (Mine has changed in the month and a half I have played at least twice) that any character, regardless of the skill points earned so far, should benefit from the new base skill set offered by their race, bloodline, ancestry and profession.
So if I started as a Gallente Intaki Command, even if I found out later I liked mining and building (moving more to the industrial path) any skills I would have acquired Thursday as a new character, should be credited to my character at restart on Tuesday, regardless of the skill points I spent.
We all know people that have gone to college, learned some skill, and then entered the working world to find they have a different calling... the time in college may have been wasted learning the wrong things for that calling, but they still learned them.
Noob in training...
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JohnCrichton
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:43:00 -
[63]
As a new player of less than a month old how can I put this I feel frelling shafted. I've paid my money in good faith for the game to find out that now everyone else who pays after tuesday will have just about 200k less skill points than me instantly. Personally had I known about this stupid limit I could of stopped skill training for a few days and made a hell of a lot more sp.
No offense it should be given to characters less than a full billing cycle old. Mines only been paid up for 24 days.
God ****it I always seem to get shafted with changes everytime I start a new mmorpg. To be honest there's not a lot I can do about it I'm enjoying the game just for the good people I know in it so I don't want to leave I guess I just gotta take one for the team >.<
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Kage Getsu
Lordless
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:10:00 -
[64]
You'll live. Skill point total isn't necessarily a measure of how good anyone is at anything. This isn't a generic MMO where level 60 is infinitely better than level 59.
Remember that the guy with the most SP in the universe is completely useless in a fight because he has over 60 million SP in science and industry. _________________________________________________________
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:14:00 -
[65]
Originally by: JohnCrichton Personally had I known about this stupid limit I could of stopped skill training for a few days and made a hell of a lot more sp.
...huh? You'd still have 800k SP after the patch, regardless of whether you'd stopped training in the meantime or not. It's not as if skill training costs you anything...
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding Placid Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.27 14:23:00 -
[66]
800k is about a month's worth of training for new characters. While I agree that it gives players a much faster entry into the world of Eve, I think it's like having characters in Diablo 1 start out on lvl 10, because it's just too cruel to have them start on lvl 1 with a broken basic sword of crapness.
At no point in a character's career is the relative gain in strength as visible as in the first few weeks, and this new player experience deprives people of part of that. Not only on a skill but also on a material level, since skills are the most expensive things new characters typically purchase.
Another point I dislike is that every completely disposable alt now has access to 1 or 2 lvl 5 skills. You will probably have thought about abuse possibilities (apart from macro mining), and I sure hope your thoughts and "other measures" to deal with those problems are correct and complete. We'll see how this plays out.
I agree that the learning skills have become a no-brainer and a mindless grind for new players, you absolutely need them at 4 initially, in order to soon get them to 5 and the advanced ones to 4 or so as well. On the other hand, giving everybody access to high levels in (for example) learning skills from the start fixes that problem only partially. If you give them all to everybody, it defeats their purpose. If you give parts of them to everybody (as I think it will be now) the rest is still mandatory, and the length of the grinding is reduced slightly in the best case.
Giving everybody a flat 500k (or whatever) boost would imho have been the better option, since 500k skill points don't mean as much for the veterans anyway. Ah right, one of the skills I want to lvl 5 for another 2-5% bonus is half done. But that's still better than "Hey wait, all newbs just got a month of skill training for free, I got nothing." So the impact on game play would have been close to negligible, but the ****-off factor and the miffedness of the people with 801k+ skill points when the patch hits would have been absent. ______________ Join the Family |
Labratory Rat
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:55:00 -
[67]
Excellent Blog and I really like the changes for new starters.
Just with this system was in place when I created my char 3.5 years ago and dumped so many attribute points in Charisma.
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Josia
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:59:00 -
[68]
I really liked this blog, though it was a bit long, all of it was in my opinion an informative read. And I hope that we get more of this in the future. But...
I have to agree somewhat with the people who are basiclly getting screwed up the back side because they got just over 800K, I think it would have been better to give everyone the skills that that person should have gotten if he/she made that char right after patch deployment.
So for instance. I choose a caldari fighter but I still don't have missle bombartment to lvl5 but at lvl3, now someone who just made a char gets 5 right away, To me that makes me feel a bit bentover and pounded. Yes I may have more SP, but I paid my real hard worked money (not isk, but euro's) to get that far plus the time it took me to get there. Now some noob comes in and takes it all for free. I'm not saying I just want 600k added to my skills but I would like to get that lvl5 missle bombarment, I think that way it is much more fair to people who have been playing not that long but still long enought to get somewhere. And even though I might have more experience I still do feel like a noob at times beacause this game is huge and I still find new mods and skills I feel I really did not know about, but that's a different storry.
Now for just giving 800k sp I really think it is a little bit too much. 450k would be better because you still have to train more than double that to get to 1mil. Which like mentioned is a very big point in the game to get as is getting your first lvl5 skill (which for me was a learning skill :)). I was very happy when getting that far now it is only 2 days away or no day away at all. I think that is very important step in really understanding the game.
And finally I really like the way the new char creation looks, I really had no idea what I picked for and later found out it would have been beter to pick other things. So this really looks to be much better then the old one and I will definnetly make a new alt just to see how much different and better it had become.
Sorry for the long rant I hope someone does take the time too read it, and if not meh.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:08:00 -
[69]
You can have your missile bombardment V, but only if you give up the other skills you've trained instead...
Training is pretty zero-sum - newbies will have some skills that you don't, you'll have some that they don't. If you really want those level 5s, bin your character and start over.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:12:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Noriath Nobody ever even mentions that there is no such thing as freedom or human rights in the Caldari State...
If the test server was working right now I'd quote you the exact passage where it says that in the racial description in step 1.
Server's working again
Quote: Ruled by a handful of mega corporations, the Caldari State is the epitome of civil duty and efficiency, where ruthless capitalism leaves no room for human rights or feelings. They are brutally efficient fighters, giving their opponents no chance of retaliation. Through grit and superior technology, the State fought the much larger Gallente Federation to a standstill.
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Scorpyn
Caldari The Patriot Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:25:00 -
[71]
Will the basic clone have its skillpoint saving capabilities bumped to reflect these changes?
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o0Ethan0o
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:30:00 -
[72]
As a 28 day nub with less than 800k SP, can i just say WOOT and YAY! Thanks to the Devs for resolving the problem for such as me by boosting us up to the new skill level.
I had felt pretty dissapointed the way things looked, didnt want to reroll as I felt I was making progress, but this move removes any doubts I had about sticking with EVE. It looks like I've joined not just a cool game, but one run by a great bunch of Devs, which gives me a lot of confidence for the future. So thanks CCP.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:35:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius You can have your missile bombardment V, but only if you give up the other skills you've trained instead...
Training is pretty zero-sum - newbies will have some skills that you don't, you'll have some that they don't. If you really want those level 5s, bin your character and start over.
Training does not have to be a zero-sum... If a New Caldari Fighter has missile bombardment V, and as an old Caldari Fighter you have not got missile bombardment V, then you could be granted that skill at that level... so what if you have found out you disliked being a Caldari fighter and used the system to shift your profession to Caldari (race remains the same) Industrialist... the Caldari Fighter course of training still taught you the missile bombardment V, even if you no longer use it... much...
Perhaps this will spark a renewed interest in that profession your parents paid so many ISK to put you through...
As I see it the issue would be those that started on a path, stayed on that path, and trained all the skills they would start with in a few days to or beyond that will get nothing... where those like me who started on a path, found another path, and yet another path... and another... read a few posts and looked at yet another path (a very eclectic training pattern) would be granted some skills that may or may not help me on my current path...
The base training skills granted to any player that started would be granted regardless of the path they would take in the future based on the path they started out onà not, as it seems, based on the 800ksp setà
This would grant a player who has been playing a month a bit of an advantage over a player that started in a week (in Sp Count)à but is that not how it should be?
Noob in training...
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:03:00 -
[74]
Not quite sure what you're trying to say there. By "zero sum" I mean that post-patch, someone who started before the patch will have the same number of SP as someone who started after - sure, they may have fewer levels in some skills, but that will be exactly made up in training-time terms by having more levels in other skills. There's no advantage gained in net terms.
Similarly with changing your mind about what path you want to take and being given the "wrong" skills, a post-patch newbie who makes the same mistakes will be stuck in exactly the same position, only they'll have even more skills that they don't want. If anything this is a disadvantage. This might be what you were trying to say, but it's hard to tell...
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TorTorden
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:12:00 -
[75]
800k sp character sounds swell, but two lvl 5 skills ?
Personaly I would prefer that nobody would roll out of "college" with anything more than lvl 3 as max lvl, and that they rather give more skills in order to build up to the 800k.
I started playing eve early in march this year, and getting my first lvl 5 skill was a huge milestone for me, now it looks to become a "I got gunnery 5 and spaceship command 5 with this toon". I think nobody should undock in their first impairor/ibis with any higher than a lvl 3 skill, lvl 4's and 5's need to be earned.
I sort of remember my EVE 'birth' in a sort of haze, I chose an amarr for some odd reason (I have a thing for hooded cloaks) as for my attributes I didnt have a clue, same about skills.
I think it went something like this, "hmm, intelligence is always usefull in rpg games, I'l have some of that. Memory has always been usefull as well, charisma hmmm... (at 3) I think I'l just get a big gun. Willpower, well I consider myself a stubborn ass at times, so more of that."
I also remember asking myself "How do I gain skillpoints? I must have used most of those I started with by now." only to look at my total and see I had far more then than what I started with. I woohooed and was subsequently hooked from then on. It took at least a week before someone told me about learning skills.. Another week and then off the trial before I learned I could have rolled more SP in character creation, but by then I liked my guy and had already surpassed any optimal guy in skills and wealth. inow This guy I have right here has been my main since I downloaded the trial, whatever mistakes I made in character generation is also parts of what makes him me I guess
Please dont take away the satisfaction of getting your first lvl 5 skill a few weeks into the game, max starting lvls at 3.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:49:00 -
[76]
Mmmm, that's some good blog.
I don't 100% agree with all of your decisions on this (L5 skills for instance) but thank you very much for taking the time to explain the thought process in detail. Most of the results look very good, and even the parts I'm not crazy about don't exactly look bad.
Overall, it looks like a huge improvement of the "NPE". Good job, and thanks again. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Gunther Dwendel
Minmatar Texas Lone Star Spacers
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:56:00 -
[77]
Just one word to describe this blog....WOW!
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DHU InMe
Gallente JUSTICE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:03:00 -
[78]
TBH, what shock me is the way people gonna receive the 800k:
People under 800k (noob or freshly created character): Get some skill until he reach 795-809k
People over 5-10m: Only 16-8% loss of "advance time", but still not bad.
People between 850k and 5m: 95-16% loss of "advance time".
"advance time": Time we paid to play & train skill. In other words, while those people between 850k and 5m were playing, they sudenly have all their power somehow reduced by all the new people coming with a quick boost. __ UI Overhaul Eve Links http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&thread |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:08:00 -
[79]
Those coming later just found a shortcut to ~800k SP. The playing experience and the Iskies aren't adjusted.
Many pilots with less than 5mio SP will have a good amount of SP in learning skills and pull ahead again quickly. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Lady Zirconia
Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:26:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Any GOOD university will ensure that its graduates know everything they will ever need to know about the fundamental theoretical and practical principles of their chosen specialisations. From there they have a good foundation to go on and learn the more advanced and esoteric stuff themselves. This is pretty much exactly mirrored by the revamp - you spec in Mining, so you get Mining V. The school (being one of the 12 best in the entire cluster) teaches you everything about the fundamentals of mining, plus the basics of more advanced stuff that you can learn more about in the field.
"fundamental theoretical and practical principles of their chosen specialisations" does not for a second equate to Level 5 anything. Level 5 implies there is nothing more to learn in this subject. Which is clearly not the case of any university graduate. New Characters should not exit the creation screen with a single skill higher than Level 3, IMO.
Originally by: Joerd Toastius Training is pretty zero-sum - newbies will have some skills that you don't, you'll have some that they don't. If you really want those level 5s, bin your character and start over.
Delete his character and start over?? It may come as a surprise to you but players get attached to their characters. And more-so, he paid for that time he used to train the skills he wanted to train. He doesnt care that he will have "some skills that they dont". He wants what he wants, and if he wants to train Missile Bombardment 5 and another player just gets it given to him...then whichever way you look at it, he will feel cheated. And in fact, he is being cheated.
Without a doubt, this decision will upset a lot of players in the 801k-5mil SP range; it will strip the pleasure of earning one's first Level 5 skill, which many of us remember with fondness; and it will lead to abusive alts even though they carefully dodge the entire issue in the blog (how convenient).
And your defending this new system with positions like "bin your character" and "university teaches you everything there is to know about a subject" is illogical and not helping anyone.
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Lady Zirconia
Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:31:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Lady Zirconia on 27/11/2006 19:35:18
Originally by: Tachy Those coming later just found a shortcut to ~800k SP. The playing experience and the Iskies aren't adjusted.
Many pilots with less than 5mio SP will have a good amount of SP in learning skills and pull ahead again quickly.
They dont want to "pull ahead" with Learning skills. They want their bloody 800k SP which they are being cheated of AND to "pull ahead" with Learning skills.
Imagine, Revelations never came along....thats where these new-ish players would be. Now they are being set back a month of training - even though they paid for it.
edit: And dont bring up the fact that they arent actually losing anything because then you are simply revealing your ignorance of the fact that people also possess things which arent tangible - such as pride in their characters and their achievements. How would the older players like it if they arbitrarily choose 5mil SP as the starting point? Or what about 10mil or 15mil? Ridiculous sounding isnt it? But only because its in your neighbourhood of SPs and THAT many SPs actually matters to you. Put yourself back in the shoes of a player who has just earned - and I mean earned - their first 2mil SP. Now feel the outrage...
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Vellaron
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:32:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Vellaron on 27/11/2006 19:33:24
I started playing a couple of weeks ago, and just like your usability labrats i had no idea what i was doing and created a real disaster character. I realised the mistakes i had made and went back thru the creation for a second try.
In my short time ive figured out the 'important basics' as i would call them - like afterburner, shield operation, hull upgrades, electronics etc. I was lucky in that i met someone who bought me all the books i would need, without him i would have been completely lost. The point i want to make is that the new character creation system very cleverly gives people the important basics for thier role and race, its been very well designed.
People get set on the right path, take mining for example, in the new system you get vespar refining skill, which registers 'oh, i can specialise in mining better' and sets people in the right direction.
Also i want to commend the devs and staff for listening to their players on this one, ive been pretty vocal in my views on compensation since i have two week old characters with 150k SP. I have played world of wacraft for two years and eventually quit because blizzard only cares about making money rather than making a good game and listening to their players. Sure eve has tonnes of bugs and there is much room for improvement but to me this is a glimmer of hope, that maybe there are some developers out there who havent sold out.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:12:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Lady Zirconia Level 5 implies there is nothing more to learn in this subject.
...except where there is more to learn about in the subject. Examples: Small Hybrid -> Small blaster/rail spec Gallente Frigate -> tech 2 frigates Science -> all those t2 science/engineering skills Leadership -> warfare specs spaceship command -> advanced spaceship command navigation -> jump drives and so forth...
While everything is rather abstracted, I would certainly say that a university graduate would have "level 5" in a rank 1 skill - the rank 1s are essentially the "fundamentals of" categories. After mastering the fundamentals of small hybrids, you can specialize more in blasters or railguns - spending your training time on one of the weapon types in the category, and with 3 times more effort to gain results. This isn't all that dissimilar to the real world where in undergrad you generally learn the fundamentals of your discipline, after you get your bachelor's you either go into industry or grad school - either way you specialize in some small part of your field. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Minroct Duprect
Gepe
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:21:00 -
[84]
I have a bit of sympathy for those new to the game at around 1.5 mil points but I think it's a good change overall and they'll get the advantage if they want a hauler alt or something similar in the future. It needs to be done to give the noobs a hand up and it's just unfortunate that people playing for a month or two will feel slightly hard done by - but you're playing this for fun right, not skill points?
I've used the new char generation system on sisi and it's a really nice piece of work - congrats to those involved, it's way better than the old system. Only problem I could see is that if you hang around too long the session times out as you haven't logged in - don't know if this can be fixed but it's annoying and new people might not understand why they were kicked out after figuring out all their options. |
Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:25:00 -
[85]
Sound like a great changed, I'll look forward to look at the new skills my alt will have that I have had for almost 2 years and still only has 49k skillpoins.
But I do have one question Now in the Blog is says that Amarr and Gal are armor based races, and Cal and Minmatar are Sheild.
Now I have a Minmatar charater that has over 12mil skill points but no skills in Sheilds. Now I'm assuming that all minmatar charcters will now start with shield operations of some lvl since shields are now what minmatar favor for defensive measures(according to the Blog).
So shouldn't all minmatar characters be given some shield skills even if they have over 800k skill points. Or am I wrong in that all minmatar characters from revelations on will now have some sort of shield skills?
Thanks Jet
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Lady Zirconia
Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:58:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Lady Zirconia on 27/11/2006 20:58:07
Originally by: Hllaxiu
...except where there is more to learn about in the subject. Examples: Small Hybrid -> Small blaster/rail spec Gallente Frigate -> tech 2 frigates Science -> all those t2 science/engineering skills Leadership -> warfare specs spaceship command -> advanced spaceship command navigation -> jump drives and so forth...
While everything is rather abstracted, I would certainly say that a university graduate would have "level 5" in a rank 1 skill - the rank 1s are essentially the "fundamentals of" categories. After mastering the fundamentals of small hybrids, you can specialize more in blasters or railguns - spending your training time on one of the weapon types in the category, and with 3 times more effort to gain results. This isn't all that dissimilar to the real world where in undergrad you generally learn the fundamentals of your discipline, after you get your bachelor's you either go into industry or grad school - either way you specialize in some small part of your field.
Granted. But that cut-off of where graduate studies end and postgrad begins is rather arbitrary. Would you say that new players (undergrad) should start with Gunnery 5 or Small Hybrid 5 or perhaps when they pick a Specialization in Blasters in Character Creation they should start with a few levels Small Blaster Spec. T2 guns at charater creation? Why not? Give the poor noobs a hand.
Sounds ridiculous doesnt it?
Equal playing field. That is whats being given to us by the new system on the one hand and simultaneously taken away with the other. Why "fix" characters who arent even in the game yet, and kick existing players in the teeth? Particularly when the "fix" is by their own admission not very accurate.
However, your point stands, even though its simply in the way one chooses to explain it away. The underlying issues are not changed though - unhappy, cheated players, however you wish to justify it.
Originally by: Minroct Duprect but you're playing this for fun right, not skill points?
I would assume that since we are playing an MMO - which by definition is a persistent realm, means that one of its alures is that you do in fact accrue things - whether it be ISK, SP, territory, ships or fame. Otherwise you may prefer games like CounterStrike more - their stateless environments lend themselves perhaps more to meaningless "fun".
Frankly, I dont like your judgmental tone of how people choose to have their fun in this game. And as an example if I choose to have my "fun" by taking out my frustrations with this 800k SP decision by killing innocent noobs in high sec (and their idiotic Level 5 skills) then so it shall be.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:16:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Lady Zirconia "fundamental theoretical and practical principles of their chosen specialisations" does not for a second equate to Level 5 anything. Level 5 implies there is nothing more to learn in this subject. Which is clearly not the case of any university graduate.
BS. If I get Industry V on graduation that does not mean I know everything there is to know about Industry as a whole. There are twenty-eight further skills to master. Industry V constitutes having a complete understanding of the fundamental principles of industry, and if I graduated from the School of Applied Knowledge without that skill I would turn around and sue them. Similarly if I took a degree in English at an Oxbridge university I would absolutely expect to graduate with "English V", and probably "Basic Grammar V" as well. Throw in "Advanced Grammar III", "Critical Analysis II" and "Shakespeare I" and you're working towards a well-rounded package.
Quote: He doesnt care that he will have "some skills that they dont". He wants what he wants, and if he wants to train Missile Bombardment 5 and another player just gets it given to him...then whichever way you look at it, he will feel cheated. And in fact, he is being cheated.
Only if he insists on having his cake and eating it too. He doesn't have missile bombardment V. The newbie that does doesn't have Warhead Upgrades IV, which he does. Like I said, zero-sum. Nobody's being cheated of anything.
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Jordan Musgrat
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:11:00 -
[88]
Well, whatever you say, we are getting shafted. I'm not going to argue that I can't be good because I don't get those 500k SP, I'm going to argue that you just basically wasted a month of my time, and money. Now, a noob gets to the same place I did after around a month of work and money. I'll repeat myself- I'm still better than him, and I have more isk. But I lost a whole lot of training time, and in this game, you pay for training time more than the chance to make isk, or gain experience. I doubt that you will change for me :(, but I hope you at least think twice. That said, I think that the rest of the changes are great, and very needed. All in all, I'll probably be happy enough that I'm getting more of a game.
Keep up the good work.
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Chumber
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:47:00 -
[89]
I feel kinda left out too, just because you are over 800k doesn't mean you won't need it.
500k SP are 16 days with my average of 1300 SP / hour. Don't call that nothing :/
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Rumbaar
Solitary Forsaken
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Posted - 2006.11.28 00:05:00 -
[90]
Great blog.
Now the changes as a whole who can say they aren't a positive step forward for EVE. I remember starting with 50k SP, it took me 1-2 months to actually be able to do anything. That in itself can be the biggest hurdle for new players. This will address that issue, but create one of a ISK vacuum for them, but one they should be able to handle with the skills.
Now I'm sure I'm like the major of mid veteran players and wished it had been implemented months ago or years ago when 'we' first started ___________________
Custom banner? Click above or EVEmail |
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Mini Mizer
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Posted - 2006.11.28 00:46:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Mini Mizer on 28/11/2006 00:54:36 800,000 sp to start off with? Frankly thats bull.
Make em learn the game just like the rest of us, faithful subscribers get NADA with this! How about giving everyone over 800k a free 600k sp to spend as they wish. Thats just the diff from 800k - 200k simple math if people already started with ~200k sp character.
I paid like so many others and re-made characters till i found one that might work during the first weeks or just rode it out and trained up the second character to do what it needed to do.
Glad the the character creation process is improved but in reality it isn't fair.
How about no lag for new player experience. How about better corp controls. How about better ways to get back at scammers and corp thieves. How about ways to better determine when corp characters are no longer playing and contributing.
Thanks for the additional hitpoints etc on ships but the small guns vs large targets damage potential is still to high.
grrrr"one frikken day maybe"eeaattt.
Good Luck on patch day and keep up the hard work....
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Fragofon IX
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Posted - 2006.11.28 01:07:00 -
[92]
i am constantly amazed by two conflicting feelings for this game and CCP: how at the same time you can have marvelous ideas and constantly improve the game and at the sime time manage to screw it up some way in the process, take some arbitrary dump decision and ruin the fun of your players base ( and clients....)
To get to the point, yes the new character creation process is great, much better thn the old one and I'm currently very happy that i can use it to lure more friends and acquaintances to the game, and feel positive they'll like it form the start instead of having to try to convince them that in two or three months they'll be having the time of their lives ...
BUT.
it is a complete nonsense and i wonder why did you came up with it ( beyond that it might make your coding life easier maybe?? ), to limit the recompensation to those players under the magic 800k limit. This way everyone else is screwed up , more or less depending on their advancement level, and even though if some may not bother to scream "theft", "bloody murder", "whatsover" :p, it still is a bad decision.
it doenst mattter that a character with all advanced learnign skills to 5 and +5 implants needs maybe 7-8 days to train those 500k-700k SPs NOW. essentialy this little idea puts everyone over 800SPs , 15-20 days behind what they would be if they had this better opportunity earleir in their trainign "career". Would you like to reinburse all of 150.000 cleints for 15 days ? nope didnt think so.
and dont say it;s insignificant even for a semi advanced or moderately advanced character.
500-700k SPs are a BIG deal to any character of up to 2-3 mil SPS.
500-700k SPs are a REALLY important to any character between to 3-7 mil SPS. (10+% of their total training..??)
500-700k SPs are a also iportant deal to any character of betwen 7-15mil SPS. (10-5% )..
and even you are beyond that point i dont think it;s irelevant.
========= as ana example a friend has an account with 1 character with 4.5 mil SPs, one with a but under 2 mil, and a new one with 350-500 mi l or so.
Tell me he's not screwed. sure his third character will get a mediocre boost, the other two are clearly to a disadvantage....
==========
I can go on... with many more exampels that showcase how bad a decision this is.
so .
Please iplement this idea the right way. give everyone what they "missed", in order to be fair and straight to your customer base.
giving everyone a 500k SP boost would be MUCH more fair than what you propose.
eitherwise give us 2 weeks of reimbursment for our accounts, as that's what we're essentially missing compared to new characters, at minimum... and we'll still be ****ed, just not feeling cheated..
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CenturinSG
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Posted - 2006.11.28 17:08:00 -
[93]
The new changes look great. It will allow new players to actually do something while training those 2 months worth of learning skills..
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DeAdspAwN
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Posted - 2006.11.29 07:53:00 -
[94]
Great blog!!! not very fair though imho. I have been playing a bit over 3 months now, for the first 2 months I was not very educated in the ways of eve, so my training is all kinds of wackado. now players starting the game will have about 400k less than me compared to the 30k something when I first started the game. where is my love? i spent a fair bit of cash getting to 1.6mil sp if I had only waited a few months I could of saved some cash. I think CCP should give every one alittle bit of extra sp or atleast make a larger gap between the 14 day trail players and the players that have played a few months. If I get ganked by a 3 day old Im gonna be a very unhappy monkey .
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Lady Zirconia
Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.29 09:10:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Lady Zirconia on 29/11/2006 09:15:11
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
BS. If I get Industry V on graduation that does not mean I know everything there is to know about Industry as a whole. There are twenty-eight further skills to master. Industry V constitutes having a complete understanding of the fundamental principles of industry, and if I graduated from the School of Applied Knowledge without that skill I would turn around and sue them. Similarly if I took a degree in English at an Oxbridge university I would absolutely expect to graduate with "English V", and probably "Basic Grammar V" as well. Throw in "Advanced Grammar III", "Critical Analysis II" and "Shakespeare I" and you're working towards a well-rounded package.
Granted. You make a good case. But your analogy doesnt work across all skill trees. But even if it did, its bad game design to have new players start within easy reach of advanced modules and ships. It shortens the feeling of progression and advancement.
Its worth pointing out also that "feeling of advancement" needs context or a point of reference. As such, one tends to compare oneself to those around you and to ones friends and corpmates. Giving the new players so many free SPs while ignoring the rest of the player base entirely is bad game design. At the very least, there should be a sliding scale of free SPs going to characters up to the 10mil SP mark. Not cutting off at 800k.
Quote:
Only if he insists on having his cake and eating it too. He doesn't have missile bombardment V. The newbie that does doesn't have Warhead Upgrades IV, which he does. Like I said, zero-sum. Nobody's being cheated of anything.
Player A has 850k of SP pre-Kali. Player B has 20k of SP pre-Kali. Player A has already been playing for a little over a month. Player B has just started. Player A created their character as an industry character but got bored and two weeks in, started training for combat stuff, like missiles and shields. Player B just started a combat character and gets Missile Launcher Op 5 for free and a host of other combat skills adding up to 800k immediately. Player A gets nothing.
Thats ok, Player A has had the luxury of playing for a month already and thus ample time to realize his mistake and change his career direction. That is afterall the premise of EVE, forge your own destiny etc. Oh No! "Luxury of playing for a month" my ass because Player B was just rewarded where he wasnt. I guess he just has to deleted his character and re-create it in order to catch up to someone who he in all fairness should be a month ahead of! So he has lost a month afterall.
He has been cheated, and the more I think about it, the more criminal this is looking since real money and real time are involved. If you cant see that there are players being cheated here (this is just one scenario) then you arent a very good judge of whats fair.
Originally by: CenturinSG It will allow new players to actually do something while training those 2 months worth of learning skills..
Actually people coped quite fine without this boost to SPs for many years now. They somehow managed to play through the first two months and *shock* do productive stuff during that time period.
I have no idea why people keep saying "yay now I'll be able to bring my friends to play". All I hear is "blah blah blah more lag". And thats because EVE is already expanding its subscriber base at a phenomenal rate which currently exceeds the cluster and game stability capacity. So why all this fever about the NPE anyway. If those people didnt have the stamina to stick through the old character creation/tutorial system then they should stay far away from EVE. Its clear this game isnt for them. So stop bringing millions of people to the game who do nothing but lag out the game cluster and then leave after a month of complaining that the game sucks.
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Josia
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Posted - 2006.11.29 10:10:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 27/11/2006 23:50:06 Well, whatever you say, we are getting shafted. I'm not going to argue that I can't be good because I don't get those 500k SP, I'm going to argue that you just basically wasted a month of my time, and money. Now, a noob gets to the same place I did after around a month of work and money. I'll repeat myself- I'm still better than him, and I have more isk. But I lost a whole lot of training time, and in this game, you pay for training time more than the chance to make isk, or gain experience.
This is exaclly what I meant. I/we just got screwed out of real money. If you can't see that your very ignorant
Originally by: Joerd Toastius You can have your missile bombardment V, but only if you give up the other skills you've trained instead...
Training is pretty zero-sum - newbies will have some skills that you don't, you'll have some that they don't. If you really want those level 5s, bin your character and start over.
Do you really think I'm gona throw my character away who does have over 2,5mil sp. I Like my character I have made 2 alts who I haven't used ever really. those are very much under the 800k region but I don't care about those they will be assimilated anyway very soon.
What they have basiclly done whith this is screw everybody who came to this game before revelations. For a company who says they listen and care for their fan base, this seems like a very unwise decision. And they are basiclly are turning their backs towards any over 800k and putting their fingers in their ears saying "lalala I don't care about you we just want the noobs to stay so we get more money". Now finacial wise this is a very sound decision, but moral wise and fan base wise it is not.
If they really want to have people stick with the game after their trial. And I have thought about this for awhile. Give them a preview of things to come. what I mean by this is. Give them a look at corp life and higher missions. For instance after they have finished the tutorial give them a one time jump clone and let them look at real corp with real people doing a lvl3 or 4 mission. now how to get the corp to agree to letting newbs in their inner circle. Make it a special mission (newbie show around) which give more money or has better loot so the person who gets the mission also has a benefit. The corp gets the benefit of getting a little extra exposure. And possibly a new corp member. give theo newb a one time off indesctrutable ship which gets destroyed after the mission has ended, so that they don't get shot down by the pirates or make it a hologram ship. To me this looks like a much better then just giving them 800k sp, This way they have soemthing to look forward too. (now if you don't get what I'm trying to say with this, It all fits good in my head I'm just not very good at explaining :P)
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Nanchen Huimoro
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Posted - 2006.11.29 11:47:00 -
[97]
After some considiration there is another way for those of with 7,5m+sp to look at this.
With this our up to now virtually useless character slots will actually mean you can make a trader/hauler alt relatively quick, without needing to halt training on the main. I just rolled a new char on TQ earlier today and got engieering 5, mechanic 5, hull upgrades 4,and several other lvl 4 skills. It's still far too much I think, I agree on increasing the starting SP but I would rather have seen it fleshed out into more skills in total than 2 lvl 5 skills and 4 or so lvl 4 skills. I still think you should get no greater than a lvl 3 skill from character generation.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.29 11:47:00 -
[98]
Great work on the charachter generation and giving some bonus to the recent players. To the writer above me: no, you haven't been cheated. Different in skillpoint, even in characters chreated at the same time are common. I have 2 main characters in 2 accounts the first has almost 1 million less SP than the second, even if it was created a month before. the difference is that the second character is a scentist one and has trained mostly int/mem skills, her strong points, while the first one is more a generalist, and has more average characteristics, with a strong charisma. So it is easy to get imbalances even in characters wih the same age.
A side note: I hope that in the training it is strongly suggested to upgrade the clone, as a strarting character now has a lot more skill points that the starting clone.
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TorTorden
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.29 11:49:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Nanchen Huimoro After some considiration there is another way for those of with 7,5m+sp to look at this.
With this our up to now virtually useless character slots will actually mean you can make a trader/hauler alt relatively quick, without needing to halt training on the main. I just rolled a new char on TQ earlier today and got engieering 5, mechanic 5, hull upgrades 4,and several other lvl 4 skills. It's still far too much I think, I agree on increasing the starting SP but I would rather have seen it fleshed out into more skills in total than 2 lvl 5 skills and 4 or so lvl 4 skills. I still think you should get no greater than a lvl 3 skill from character generation.
Dang alt posting thing. There is no such thing as good or evil. Just an egotistic struggle for self empowerment. [u] |
LeeLewis
Caldari The Guardian Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:29:00 -
[100]
First off i hate what you have done to missiles, you already nerfed them once just leave them alone GMs.
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Diss Champ
Amarr Synergy.
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:40:00 -
[101]
Originally by: LeeLewis First off i hate what you have done to missiles, you already nerfed them once just leave them alone GMs.
Nerfed? The big missle overhaul made them better for anyone willing to train the skills. Not only do they kick ass even more than before once you max the skills, but the old countermeasures (defenders and smartbombs) are almost entirely useless now. Most any situation you would use them before you can still use them as well or better, and they have more utility. They are long overdue for balancing- will be interesting to see how the Kali tweaks turn out, regarding the nifty new missle type vs slight downgrades on some old ones.
In other news, and more on topic, I really liked the SP compensation scheme. Not for my main, but for my hauler alt, which I'd created long ago and put some of my real skill time into getting into a Bestower. When I first heard about the new char creation, I'd been afraid I'd want to toast him, but the extra pointed rounded him out nicely for utility work, while leaving his points intact, very similar to if I'd created him from scratch now and invested some training time to get him into a Bestower. Nothing overpoweringly good given, but enough to balance the newly created alts. Bravo!
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Ekkiskjotamig
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Posted - 2006.11.29 20:18:00 -
[102]
Boo-hoo!
OMG I'm so angry at the people that invented the internet, because they allow kids today to use, and I didn't get to use it when I was a kid! I didn't have it and neither should they! The creator is screwing me over and kids are being robbed of the hard experience I went through, getting information about basic stuff! God is unfair! He sucks!
...uhm, hold on.
Lighten up, whiners.
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Hon Kovell
Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.30 00:24:00 -
[103]
Thank you, Skell. That was a truly gorgeous devblog. You clearly explained your aims, how you mean to achieve those aims, and addressed people's concerns. Great work.
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Jordan Musgrat
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Posted - 2006.11.30 05:32:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 30/11/2006 05:32:22
Originally by: Josia
This is exaclly what I meant. I/we just got screwed out of real money. If you can't see that your very ignorant
I'm sorry, I really don't think that I was talking to you, does your screen show a quote on my reply to the OP? Mmkay then, let's settle down.
And Ekkiskjotamig, we're not really whining at all, merely sharing our thoughts with the devs, I think that is accepted in this thread, maybe even encouraged? Not seeing how you contributed to the thread...
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Javal
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Posted - 2006.11.30 08:04:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Venkul Mul To the writer above me: no, you haven't been cheated.
If with the writer above you mean me, then your right I didn't got cheated if got robbed.
@Jordan Musgrat: The ingnorant part wasn't meant for you, it was for Joerd Toastius, I just tried to say that I agreed with you. Sorry for not writing it down more thuroly:P
@Ekkiskjotamig: Don't start throwing mud around if you don't have something consttuctive to say don't say anything. and besides you don't know me and neither do I know you.
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Skellibjalla
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Posted - 2006.11.30 12:23:00 -
[106]
Yeah, thanks everyone for your replies. Appreciated
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andymark
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:08:00 -
[107]
Phew, that was awfully long winded. Could probably have trained 800k sps in the time taken to read and digest all of that. Any chance of fixing the f*&k up that is Contracts?
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Monkey Rogue
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:38:00 -
[108]
That's a really long read. After dozing off a few times I finally finished.
As a returning player, I have to say I am impressed with the general changes brought about with EVE. Since day one this game has been well done, but with some serious flaws that needed addressing. This should have been done ages ago. I think it's a better storytelling device, it's well done, polished, plus it really explains more details about skills and attributes. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread. There, I said it.
Having said that, this should have been the first change implemented. It would have helped to create a more level playing field and prevented so much steam from a now-mature player base. (Yeah, I called them mature. Scary huh?)
Is it unfair? Not really. It's a change to a changing universe, it's supposed to feel like life and life isn't always fair.
Is it right? Again, probably not.
Are long-time players entitled to some compensation because of this? Personally, I don't believe so. The people who have been here the longest have expanded their skillsets beyond these meager beginnings to such a degree that it's worth, what 2 weeks of time? 5 at the most? During that time of training and learning they also learned the basics of the game, earned money, developed friendships, gained influence and earned a place in the world. The new players coming in are just getting a slight leg up, with a better perspective on things.
While, I agree, long term players deserve a reward for being here and sticking with the game, it's not because of some perceived injustice from a changing environment. CCP has done alright by you guys so far. I recommend not going ape over it until we see what else they have in store. Who knows, maybe patience is a virtue.
I dunno, I have none. But I am glad to see I was right about some of the reasons for the new character creation. I was wondering how long that was going to go on for. |
adsfcdcss
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Posted - 2006.11.30 21:28:00 -
[109]
Edited by: adsfcdcss on 30/11/2006 21:29:04 wrong post pleas delete it
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Tila VaKala
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Posted - 2006.11.30 21:32:00 -
[110]
Is it unfair? YES. Why ? Becouse my freiends play not more then 2-4 months and 800sp is a month of skiling for a new palyer. and lowering the skils (lerings to lv4 to have the advenced lerings)Thay have to skil it to lv 5 each 4-8days (depends on memory/int +implants) to have lering so lost another month ? not ?? yes now you skil to lv 4(normal lernig) then advenced lerinig to lv 4 and after normal lering to lv5 so time saving how much ?? so 2 months lost of skillpoints ?? and what thay get ? nothing
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.30 22:43:00 -
[111]
I'm amazed nobody mentioned it yet - a new trader char starts out with Daytrading, which happens to be a 11.25 mill ISK skill. Talk about how long it used to take newbs to save up this amount of money. Now you get it for free, which means all the time you invested previously to get it is wasted. That's an undeniable fact.
Well anyway... great blog and great changes. I still think 800k SP is a bit too much, and the selection sound in char creation is kind of strange, but that's just my personal opinion and apart from it - good work!
________________________ -Don't try to enforce your opinion by usage of multiple exclamation marks, question marks, CAPS or swear words. It doesn't work- |
Vinni
Caldari Aveatcay Emptorway Intergalactic Freelance Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.30 23:14:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Vinni on 30/11/2006 23:18:33 IMO, it's a financial decision to make the game more attractive to newer players. A lot of people I hear from about EVE say that it's "too complicated", and usually end up playing a game like WoW. WoW is a very simple straight forward game with little learning curve and descent action. I feel it lacks the depth of EVE to keep a lot of people for a long time, though. It would be nice to know how many players stay with EVE or return after trying out other games, compared to games like DAoC. I've been keeping my accounts active for almost three years now. While I do feel "robbed" of skill point growth potential (don't get me started on the learning skills), I support the decision to give newer players more skill points, making them much more functional to start off. It's much more benefitial to have skilled labor in my work force, too. My only real concern are blobs of kami-kazi goons. Vinni [AvEm] Minister of Central Services |
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Skellibjalla
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Posted - 2006.12.01 09:21:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Skellibjalla on 01/12/2006 09:23:23
Originally by: Tarron Sarek I'm amazed nobody mentioned it yet - a new trader char starts out ...the selection sound in char creation is kind of strange, but that's just my personal opinion and apart from it - good work!
The sounds played upon selection are placeholder sounds and will be replaced by a voiceover - Slated for January 2007
Originally by: Vinni Edited by: Vinni on 30/11/2006 23:18:33 I support the decision to give newer players more skill points, making them much more functional to start off. It's much more benefitial to have skilled labor in my work force, too.
That's one thing I also hope will benefit the veterans, after all, corporations need staff to function
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2006.12.01 19:19:00 -
[114]
Here's the thing, other people getting something never robs anything from you. Sure you can talk about it not being fair, but a new player could just as easily say it's not fair that you have all kinds of money and skills he doesn't have, after all you are both paying the same amount per month. I bet as a percentage of the total skill base new players are getting less now then a new player did when EVE started. There are a million ways to look at it but ultimatly its all stupid, the world isn't fair and really who would want it to be?
The only way to analyze this that is worth it is to determine if it helps a) you and b) the game as a whole. I think you'll find that for most people it will do both.
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Mordrake
MetaForge
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Posted - 2006.12.01 22:42:00 -
[115]
Outstanding job revamping char creation... decided to go ahead and try it out even go so far as to use the Agents I am directed to by the tutorial.... then I hit a road block:
Training Complexes... the Spawn rate is WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY too slow.... sat at the entrance gate expectantly waiting for the "Pirate" NPC's to spawn... took about an hour and a half... then inside the first gate I waited for about 2 hours for an NPC to spawn and finally gave up.
Think you need to tweek the spawn rate in those training complexes... or it all comes to a screaching halt for a new player.
"Arte et Marte" |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.12.02 13:17:00 -
[116]
Awesome and I mean awesome read. Wish CCP would put out design docs for every change they make like this. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Octavio Santillian
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Posted - 2006.12.02 19:40:00 -
[117]
I applaud the changes, and the detail and effort put into the explanatory blog. Good work.
I, however, have two comments.
1: All æoldÆ players should receive a free 600,000 skill points. It is simply the fair thing to do. It is completely within the power of the DevÆs to do so, and I can see no reason why some players should be compensated due to the change and other will not.
2: You really need to offer more of a tutorial regarding the importance of choosing attributes wisely. I curse the day I made my character because I simply did not learn the importance of attributes for the long haul fast enough. I followed the æfighterÆ playerÆs guide and made a ôàcharacter with at least 10-12 Memory to start with, and an even spread between Intelligence, Willpower, and Perceptionàö By the time I figured out this was horrible advice for a long term combat pilot, it was too late; I wasnÆt about to throw away 2 months (I wish I had now). My character is over a year old, and I calculate that I would be approximately 3.5 months ahead of where I am now, had I chosen a higher perceptions/willpower. That gap will just grow as time goes on, and IÆm bitter as hell about it. I wouldnÆt feel so bad if it hadnÆt been the official CCP guide that lead me astray. IÆd like to save some others from that mistake (and ideally IÆd like to be able to change my attributes, but I know that isnÆt going to happen).
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Skellibjalla
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Posted - 2006.12.03 05:57:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Skellibjalla on 03/12/2006 06:01:08
Originally by: Mordrake Outstanding job revamping char creation... decided to go ahead and try it out even go so far as to use the Agents I am directed to by the tutorial.... then I hit a road block:
Training Complexes... the Spawn rate is WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY too slow.... sat at the entrance gate expectantly waiting for the "Pirate" NPC's to spawn... took about an hour and a half... then inside the first gate I waited for about 2 hours for an NPC to spawn and finally gave up.
Think you need to tweek the spawn rate in those training complexes... or it all comes to a screaching halt for a new player.
There is a mean bug with the respawn code which will be patched on tuesday. It was hard to spot because it came most apparent when many people were doing the same thing more than twice (not once - funny in a twisted way, it's like it was made for QA not to notice)
Originally by: Octavio Santillian 2: You really need to offer more of a tutorial regarding the importance of choosing attributes wisely. I curse the day I made my character because I simply did not learn the importance of attributes for the long haul fast enough.
This is why the new character creation now tells you directly what skill categories are affected by what attributes, both primary and secondary. The voiceover which will be patched in January will underline this further.
Octavio's other point is addressed in the blog and actually Lincoln Armm and Monkey Rogue for example supply a pretty down to earth point of view on the issue.
Originally by: Monkey Rogue Since day one this game has been well done, but with some serious flaws that needed addressing. This should have been done ages ago. I think it's a better storytelling device, it's well done, polished, plus it really explains more details about skills and attributes. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread. There, I said it.
...I am glad to see I was right about some of the reasons for the new character creation. I was wondering how long that was going to go on for.
Well, thank you and we apologize about the delay
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.12.03 09:06:00 -
[119]
Utterly off-topic, but man, for a dev you post at the oddest hours - when do you sleep? ----------------
Where are the scan probe BPOs? |
Octavio Santillian
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Posted - 2006.12.03 18:52:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Octavio Santillian on 03/12/2006 18:59:54
Originally by: Lincoln Armms Sure you can talk about it not being fair, but a new player could just as easily say it's not fair that you have all kinds of money and skills he doesn't have, after all you are both paying the same amount per month.
Just as easily; how so? Anyone who would employ such logic really doesnÆt know what a logical argument is: seriously. Sure we all pay the same per month, but æperÆ is the operative word here. Consider that I have paid for the game and played the game for X months and you have played and paid for Y; when X>Y it stands to reason that I will have more isk, skills, etc. I really canÆt fathom what your point is here.
The appeal to the percentage of starting skills to the total available skills is another red herring. At the current moment the new player and the old player are still working against the same top end skill total while the starting percentage of skill points they received for free (i.e. at character creation) vs that top level are unequal.
As for the mechanics, there are plenty of easy ways to deal with it. Use the mechanics stated in the blog for characters under 800,000 skill points. For characters above 800,000 skill points the mechanics would be much, much easier. Simply instantly add 800,000 skill points to their current training. If they have a remainder, add that to their next trainingàrinse and repeat until the surplus is exhausted. You would also want to send an evemail to all characters a reasonable time before the implementation, so they would be aware that their training will suddenly accelerate at X time and date. That way they could prepare to change their training accordingly (ahemàwe need a f-ing skill training queue).
Finally, IÆll put it like this. No one is going to go ape if you give everyone the skill points. Lots of people are going to go ape if you donÆt. So, why not?
Point 2:
Originally by: Skellibjalla This is why the new character creation now tells you directly what skill categories are affected by what attributes, both primary and secondary. The voiceover which will be patched in January will underline this further.
Indeed, it is an improvement, but I think it could go further. Simply adding a little more to the short description of the attribute (as in the one found on the bloodline choice page) would go a long way. For example: ôPerception is the most important skill for a typical combat pilot.ö or ôHaving a high perception can dramatically accelerate the progress of a typical combat pilot over his or her career.ö Something like that, would help.
In any case, IÆm done now, thanks for indulging me.
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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James Potkukelkka
BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.03 22:00:00 -
[121]
So everyone that started playing earlier than the patch will get a relative slight decrease of sp :/
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Epoch
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Posted - 2006.12.04 03:03:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Octavio Santillian Edited by: Octavio Santillian on 03/12/2006 18:59:54
Originally by: Lincoln Armms Sure you can talk about it not being fair, but a new player could just as easily say it's not fair that you have all kinds of money and skills he doesn't have, after all you are both paying the same amount per month.
Just as easily; how so? Anyone who would employ such logic really doesnÆt know what a logical argument is: seriously. Sure we all pay the same per month, but æperÆ is the operative word here. Consider that I have paid for the game and played the game for X months and you have played and paid for Y; when X>Y it stands to reason that I will have more isk, skills, etc. I really canÆt fathom what your point is here.
I am in complete agreement with Octavio here. Lincoln your arguement is completely illogical.
Imagine an individul who starts a new job, specific department at a large corporation. Lets suppose this individual, this new hire: demands the same base pay, incentives, compesantion, benefits etc as employee B who works in the same department but has been there for 5 years. Do you think this person is going to be taken seriously? His first day would be his last day.
Back on topic: those older characters who have all that isk, the ships, the mods etc.. they *worked* for those items via ingame and by paying CCP ~$15/month.... some of us for years. If CCP says no.. older players get nothing, I have no intention of quiting.. I love this game. But in my personal opinion, older players should receive a modest 5-600k sp's to spend as they wish on whatever skills they want.
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Trayvok
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Posted - 2006.12.04 06:26:00 -
[123]
I can understand why players could want to delegate where the points went if ccp wanted to be cool and "share the love". The older players sacrificed points in one fielded or another to train things that are now freebies to all players new or under the 800k mark. I just as most of the others am not willing or planning to stop paying CCP my 15 bucks a month just yet. I don't mind if CCP delegates where to put the extra sp, even just one level 5 would make me happy. It would be nice to know what Skellibjalla thinks about it all. I am sure the Dev team's intentions were not to alienate all the loyal players that have dumped millions into this game and make there car payments possible. I love the fact that they made it so much easier for the new player but CCP can not just neglect the older players, business wise it does not make much sense. Skellibjalla if CCP is not willing to give all the old players some extra SP could you guys please explain why not? because I haven't a clue
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.04 16:57:00 -
[124]
First off, now that I have seen the results, I must say I like the boost given to the newer players and the alts, making Alts viable at start without training them is a great bonus...
Second, I think the idea that players that had more than the 800K getting free SP to spend is not really the right way to compensate... I have 2 accounts, one benefited, one did not, from the new system... and while I would love 600K to spend as I wish on skills, that was not what I got with the younger character... I got a selection of skills, boosted to level 4 (no level 5 skills due to prior training I had done)... all of these skills are good basic skills, but some I have not trained on my older character as of yet... yes, my older character is not much older then my new one...
The answer (in my opinion) would be to simply boost those skills that you would have gained if you were new to that level you would have them if they are not at that level at this time... in other words, my older character had mechanics at 2, I had not gone back to train it higher yet... if I would start it out at 4 if I started him today, then raise it to 4... if I have it to that level, I get nothing.
If my newer character wanted Salvaging after the update, it would take about 2 weeks (a few hours after Tuesday) for my older character, I was looking at almost 3 weeks... and that is with the bonuses I get for all the extra learning skills I have on my older character... thankfully after the change on Tuesday, both will be able to learn salvaging when I log in.
Noob in training...
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2006.12.05 01:27:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Lincoln Armm on 05/12/2006 01:36:46
Originally by: Trayvok I can understand why players could want to delegate where the points went if ccp wanted to be cool and "share the love". The older players sacrificed points in one fielded or another to train things that are now freebies to all players new or under the 800k mark. I just as most of the others am not willing or planning to stop paying CCP my 15 bucks a month just yet. I don't mind if CCP delegates where to put the extra sp, even just one level 5 would make me happy. It would be nice to know what Skellibjalla thinks about it all. I am sure the Dev team's intentions were not to alienate all the loyal players that have dumped millions into this game and make there car payments possible. I love the fact that they made it so much easier for the new player but CCP can not just neglect the older players, business wise it does not make much sense. Skellibjalla if CCP is not willing to give all the old players some extra SP could you guys please explain why not? because I haven't a clue
Yes I understand your point I was just saying that one point of view. But you can just as easily argue that what your paying each month for is thats months worth of play not a advantage over new players in the future. Again, this sort of analysis is totally subjective and pretty much useless. By the way in the real world new hires often do come in and command more money then experienced employees for a variety of reasons. Logic has nothing to do with it.
My point is this. ANY change to a MMO is going to effect some players. SOme will be benefit, some will gain, and the game as a whole is effected by the aggregate. Giving new players more xp doesn't cost you anything directly. What you need to decide is does the change make the game better both for you and the game as a whole.
Well, for me having more competent new players means the following:
- New players can join and be productive in corps sooner
You can create useful alts without spending valuable training time. New second accounts now come with more skills Mistakes made in character creation no longer result in larg xp disparities from day one.
ALl of these things make the game better for both me and the game as a whole, therefore I consider it a good thing.
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Octavio Santillian
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Posted - 2006.12.05 06:02:00 -
[126]
I think a lot of the arguments surrounding this topic are opinions and tangents. Now I donÆt begrudge anyone stating their opinion, as I wouldnÆt want to be begrudged. In any case, IÆll try to state my opinion as clearly and closely to the facts as I can.
1 û All Characters gain skill points based on an identical set of criteria. This is the same for all characters actively training.
2 - Not all characters started with a relatively equitable total of starting skill points (henceforth referred to as untrained skill points).
Statement 1 applies to all characters regardless of how many untrained skill points each character receives; therefore, it is irrelevant to any inequity in the number of untrained skill points a character receives. As such the number of trained skill points a character has acquired post creation is also irrelevant to the inequity expressed in proposition 2.*
So, we are left with proposition 2.
3 - Recognizing the inequity inherent in 2, CCP desired to rectified issue 2.
4 û Due to the method employed to rectify the inequality in proposition 2 a disparity of ~600,000 to 800,000 untrained skill points was created between pre and post Revelations characters.
5 û CCP deemed it acceptable to grant addition untrained skill points to pre-Revelations characters in an attempt to mitigate the newly created disparity.
6 û Nevertheless a disparity of ~600,000 to 800,000 untrained skill points still exists between the vast majority of pre and post Revelations characters.
As we noted above, the number of skill point a character has acquired post creation is irrelevant to any disparity in untrained skill points. So, it is my opinion that since the current disparity in untrained skill points is three to four times greater than the original disparity that CCP set out to rectify, it should also be rectified if possible.
So, the question becomes: can the disparity be reasonably rectified. I donÆt think anyone is arguing that it is beyond the ingenuity of the developers and coders to do rectify the situation.
So, why discriminate against certain characters? Well, IÆm not sure exactly. I can only assume it is because people are mistakenly factoring proposition 1 into their viewpoint. They are mistakenly taking total skill points into account when it should be clear that trained skill points have nothing whatsoever to do with the original number of untrained skill points each character receives.
Again, thanks for indulging me. Honestly IÆll shut up now. I donÆt expect to get any skill points, and it wonÆt be the end of the world.
*Actually, there is some connection. Post Revelations characters should advance faster as they start out with some learning skills pre-trained. Moreover, they can focus on training learning skills with greater dedication early on, because they start with more of the necessary basic skills pre trained.
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Naughty Cat
Caldari PAK
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:52:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Epoch
Originally by: Octavio Santillian Edited Back on topic: those older characters who have all that isk, the ships, the mods etc.. they *worked* for those items via ingame and by paying CCP ~$15/month.... some of us for years. If CCP says no.. older players get nothing, I have no intention of quiting.. I love this game. But in my personal opinion, older players should receive a modest 5-600k sp's to spend as they wish on whatever skills they want.
I totally agree. But I think Devs should add Veteran Rewards. For exaple boost Character attribs for 2+ points (just give player ability to modify any of his (her) stats with +2 points (or 1+1.) for the first year and then +1 point for another year of gameplay.
-----------------------------------------------
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Octavio Santillian
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Posted - 2006.12.05 17:39:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Naughty Cat
Originally by: Epoch
Originally by: Octavio Santillian Edited Back on topic: those older characters who have all that isk, the ships, the mods etc.. they *worked* for those items via ingame and by paying CCP ~$15/month.... some of us for years. If CCP says no.. older players get nothing, I have no intention of quiting.. I love this game. But in my personal opinion, older players should receive a modest 5-600k sp's to spend as they wish on whatever skills they want.
I totally agree. But I think Devs should add Veteran Rewards. For exaple boost Character attribs for 2+ points (just give player ability to modify any of his (her) stats with +2 points (or 1+1.) for the first year and then +1 point for another year of gameplay.
I didn't say that.
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.10 12:23:00 -
[129]
Don't know if it was mentioned already, but I would swap step 4 (Attributes) and step 5 (Ancestry) of the character creation process. It makes more sense when you add the freely distributable attribute points after you have finished the bloodline/ancestry based default attribute distribution. Now I always have to guess what attributes to assign, to achieve the distribution I want to have, although I do not know by heart what the attribute distribution for one of the following ancestries is.
Was that understandable?
Juwi Kotch
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Jordan Musgrat
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Posted - 2006.12.11 08:03:00 -
[130]
All we are trying to say is that new players pay less money and spend less time to get to where older players are. If the devs can explain why this is fair, or why it makes sense to you, we will most likely be happy. You haven't addressed this issue yet.
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ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
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Posted - 2006.12.25 19:09:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Jordan Musgrat All we are trying to say is that new players pay less money and spend less time to get to where older players are. If the devs can explain why this is fair, or why it makes sense to you, we will most likely be happy. You haven't addressed this issue yet.
It's not fair. EvE, like life is not fair.
Get over it
I love that new players get a bit more of a bump, good no you dev's
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Inquisitor Berthez
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.11.19 15:40:00 -
[132]
Time for a big fat necro here.
The point I want to make here is are we gonna get a similar change with Trinity as well??
Cheers :) |
Tek'a Rain
Gallente Isis Technologies
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Posted - 2007.11.20 01:28:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Tek''a Rain on 20/11/2007 01:29:10 kill it, kill it!
better still, why not put forth a question like this in.. the development forums?
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