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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1083
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Posted - 2015.05.21 09:37:30 -
[31] - Quote
Tabyll Altol wrote:Already implemented it-¦s called volley damage. Just adjust your damage to volley the ships ;)
-1 No need for ECM...just volley them! No need for warp disruption...just volley them! No need to rep my friends...just volley the other guys!
Just because there are multiple solutions does not make mine any less valid. Not everyone brings 204 of their closest friends to every engagement.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
972
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Posted - 2015.05.21 09:38:33 -
[32] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I've never in all my time in eve had a bait ship pop before we got through. Not ever.
That solution is like suggesting jumping before you hit the ground will save you from a falling elevator.
I've seen it happen plenty of times - not often to bait ships, but to BLOPs hunters. Granted, I do not know what caused the problem on the hostile end, but several of my friends have been dropped and killed the cyno ship before the hostile gang made it through. I have also seen it happen when going after a bunch of Skiffs and the horde of assisted drones obliterates the cyno very quickly. Usually this happens to throwaway alts in stealth bombers. If you use a sturdier ship, you don't have the same issues, but you are also not as agile.
Anyone who engages an probable bait ship without expecting an escalation needs to rethink their approach to Eve.
I do understand the frustration inherent behind the OP's suggestion. The hardest part of Eve PvP is finding a way to make someone commit to a fight so you can kill them. Whether that comes with hiding numbers in a gate, on the other side of a jump bridge, in a nearby WH, cloaked, docked, or wherever, disguising your true strength is usually the first requirement for success in Eve PVP.
This module would not make people more likely to get into fights, so it does not solve that problem.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1229
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Posted - 2015.05.21 09:45:55 -
[33] - Quote
No module can stop people caring about losses more than good fights, unfortunately. Too many people are too precious about "not losing" at all costs and damn the actual fight itself.
The crippling irony here is they'll claim everyone but themselves are risk averse. It's a sad state of affairs indeed. |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1083
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Posted - 2015.05.21 10:27:07 -
[34] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I do understand the frustration inherent behind the OP's suggestion. The hardest part of Eve PvP is finding a way to make someone commit to a fight so you can kill them. Whether that comes with hiding numbers in a gate, on the other side of a jump bridge, in a nearby WH, cloaked, docked, or wherever, disguising your true strength is usually the first requirement for success in Eve PVP.
This module would not make people more likely to get into fights, so it does not solve that problem. Thank you for being constructive. I agree with most of your post. As for the last part...you may be right. Perhaps the most risk adverse pilots will simply stop fighting at all. However, I think most would find another solution, whether it is extra support for their cyno or just ditching it altogether and roaming. Hopefully this means more ships out in space flying around and having the potential to make "mistakes" and get content and less sitting docked up in station. And if people are forced to be more careful about dropping cynos willy-nily then there will be more room for smaller roaming gangs that would otherwise find it difficult to operate.
Or it might just lead to mass unsubbing as we all succumb to our true risk-adverse nature. Who knows.
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per
Terpene Conglomerate
56
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Posted - 2015.05.21 10:59:36 -
[35] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:. Perhaps just "jams" the cyno
i like this part, would be nice to be able to "jam" active cyno so ships that will jump on it will end up in different parts of the grid randomly(aka 200k from cyno) ;)
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Daoden
The Scope Gallente Federation
98
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Posted - 2015.05.21 13:43:14 -
[36] - Quote
I don't think there should be any module that can deactivate another persons modules (short of neuts or course). if your really worried about cynos that much there are several things you can do to avoid them. 1. as stated before cyno inhibitors 2. High sec if your really that afraid of them 3. WH space 4. a ship that people generally wont drop a cyno on
the problem is it seems you just want to change the game for your own benefit, and while im sure others would benefit as well it takes away from the game. |
Lord LazyGhost
Bear Bones Brigade The Bastards.
488
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Posted - 2015.05.21 13:55:10 -
[37] - Quote
Hows about the item does not block them but means they dont land on the cyno but land at random spots in system |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
692
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:51:16 -
[38] - Quote
What is there to stop a ship with a utility highslot from fitting this? What is the trade off? Besides losing a small neut or whatever. Would not every fleet roam with a ship or two that has this module fit?
Stopping or impeding cynosural fields is an interesting idea, but it can't be so easy and guaranteed.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
471
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:32:35 -
[39] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:What is there to stop a ship with a utility highslot from fitting this? What is the trade off? Besides losing a small neut or whatever. Would not every fleet roam with a ship or two that has this module fit?
Stopping or impeding cynosural fields is an interesting idea, but it can't be so easy and guaranteed.
Pretty much this. The most I could see a highslot module do is cause the cyno landing range to become massively dispersed from 5km to (Just throwing a number out there) 500km. This would make it so extrreme sniping doctrines wouldn't simply benefit from using it on their own cyno by having most of their fleet land out of lock range, and it would simply give the defending fleet a few more seconds to react to the cyno as the enemy fleet attempts to warp back to their cyno. However this still wouldn't be a guarantee as something could still land 5km from the cyno. Although will that ship be that blingy pirate hull brawler, or will that be your logi backup?
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Alexis Nightwish
202
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:35:28 -
[40] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Cara Forelli wrote:As it is, the only really viable counter to dropping is counter dropping. Alexis Nightwish wrote:[Maller, Brick cyno] Or...you know, not taking obvious bait. Maller is terrible because everyone knows its a cyno. If you get scrammed by something as obvious and slow as a maller, you have bigger issues. You can annoy a cyno maller and blueball his gang by just sending enough kiting ships to tear it apart slowly - it's not going to light unless it has a solid lock on something, and if it does light, you can all just scurry away. Ship scanners and cargo scanners are also your friends, but again, most bait ships can be discerned more readily through judgement alone. Procurer? check to see if it has a mining laser equipped. If no, its a cyno. If you want to make convincing bait, you have to hull tank it so it still goes really fast but has enough buffer to initiate and aggressively tackle something. I never suggested the Maller was the bait ship, just the cyno. A more tantalizing ship or small fleet would be used to bait, then the Maller would warp in or decloak and pop the cyno. My point was simply that "killing the cyno" isn't a valid tactic.
Cyno mechanics are terrible, and have been without change since implemented. I just want to be able to roam in LS or NS without needing my own Titan and fleet of risk averse l33t PvPers waiting on standby. So any change that would facilitate that interests me.
Maybe when all this sov nonsense is done cyno mechanics will get a long overdue pass, but CCP has a knack for ignoring glaring problems for long periods of time so I'm not holding my breath.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
401
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:40:47 -
[41] - Quote
per wrote:Cara Forelli wrote:. Perhaps just "jams" the cyno i like this part, would be nice to be able to "jam" active cyno so ships that will jump on it will end up in different parts of the grid randomly(aka 200k from cyno) ;) I like this, instead of turning off the cyno, just increasing the radius that the jumping ships arrive at.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:What is there to stop a ship with a utility highslot from fitting this? What is the trade off? Besides losing a small neut or whatever. Would not every fleet roam with a ship or two that has this module fit?
Stopping or impeding cynosural fields is an interesting idea, but it can't be so easy and guaranteed. Considering that allot of ships had their utility high slots removed through tiericide, chance are that you'd have to go without a turret/launcher, rather than an actual utility high slot.
Considering the number of ways that we have to prevent ships warping, adding an additional way of interacting with Cynos would be a good thing.
T1 module increases the incoming radius to 100km, and T2 to 125km? I wasn't sure weather to suggest values outside or inside minimum warp range, if outside T1 175km, T2 250km.
Remember that the module if targeted in the same way that WarpScrams/WarpDisruptors etc are, so it would only effect cyno's lit by the targeted ship. |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1085
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Posted - 2015.05.21 22:47:40 -
[42] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:What is there to stop a ship with a utility highslot from fitting this? What is the trade off? Besides losing a small neut or whatever. Would not every fleet roam with a ship or two that has this module fit?
Stopping or impeding cynosural fields is an interesting idea, but it can't be so easy and guaranteed. Some good criticism here! I think there are ways to solve this. Harsh fitting...very short range...some kind of penalty that makes it undesirable for general purpose use.
Lets think about a roam fleet with a few of these mods. Is that such a bad thing? As others have pointed out, it would take time to react and take advantage of the module, especially if it has short range. It's quite possible a well coordinated group could drop anyway. Shouldn't we reward good coordination and punish poor coordination? Imagine actually needing skill to hotdrop.
Plus there are other ways to get around it. Use a Falcon cyno for example. Bring multiple cynos. You know, the sort of HTFU workarounds that people normally throw at you when you suggest something out of the box (see early portions of this thread). I really don't think my suggestion would mean the end of hot dropping. Just perhaps the end of careless hot dropping, which is exactly how it should be IMO.
per wrote:I like this, instead of turning off the cyno, just increasing the radius that the jumping ships arrive at. Interesting idea! After some retrospect however, I'm not sure that I'm a fan. Chance based mechanics are kind of frustrating and a big turn-off for most players (see ECM). I feel it would be much worse to spawn 70 km from your refit carrier buddy than to miss your cyno entirely, and it's not a mechanic you would have any control over. With my original idea, at least the suppressor ship could be dealt with, allowing the jump capable ships to enter the fight on their own terms (not stranded and random distances from the fleet). It would just require more effort and coordination than a single bait cyno (more ships in space!)
Thanks everyone for the discussion, some interesting points are coming up!
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1086
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Posted - 2015.05.26 13:39:58 -
[43] - Quote
Perhaps its use could be restricted to a single ship type. Interdictors maybe? It seems fitting given their role.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2462
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Posted - 2015.05.26 14:09:09 -
[44] - Quote
I like this idea. I'd use it to jam a friendly cyno to scatter all the sniper battleships so they can engage at optimal range immediately after landing.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
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Christopher Mabata
The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium
327
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Posted - 2015.05.26 16:10:13 -
[45] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Perhaps its use could be restricted to a single ship type. Interdictors maybe? It seems fitting given their role.
Interdictors are meant to breach hostile warp tunnels and rip fleets out of warp early, not necessarily impact capital and titan bridged travel such as this. Of course thats not to say i dont like the idea, perhaps however it should be a choice the dictor has to make, bubble trouble or cyno disruption mod, never both
Adds variety, choice, and consequence
And it could even make the less used interdictors popular, say a fleet chooses to keep all its bubbles on the sabres but use eris to fit the cyno disruptors or vice versa
Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1090
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Posted - 2015.05.28 15:56:11 -
[46] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:[quote=Cara Forelli]Interdictors are meant to breach hostile warp tunnels and rip fleets out of warp early, not necessarily impact capital and titan bridged travel such as this. Of course thats not to say i dont like the idea, perhaps however it should be a choice the dictor has to make, bubble trouble or cyno disruption mod, never both Yes, I like the idea of making tough choices when fitting it. They could either be mutually exclusive or the fitting could be designed very harshly.
Thinking about it more, perhaps HICs should have the option as well as they can actually stand up to gate guns in low sec. It could even be added as a script for their current bubble module, though that's the sort of detail I would leave up to CCP.
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