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Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
121
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Posted - 2012.02.07 03:41:00 -
[61] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:WHY did someone revive this long dead horse? There was another thread about this recently as well. On the test server before Crucible was released there were people using Naga's to flat out obliterate Battleships using torps. There are even a few vids on YouTube of this. It was far too overpowered and had to be neutered. I would love a cruise Naga though...but the Naga is fine as is with Rails honestly.
Basically this.
As it is, the Naga is a fantastic ship both in the blaster and railgun role and I don't think CCP are every going to change that now. It even out-blasters the Talos (but Talos gets drones so that's ok )
Get your corpies to train turret based skills and out of their ratting drakes. |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
150
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Posted - 2012.02.08 11:22:00 -
[62] - Quote
Hellz Hitman wrote:Caldari are missile based. Not Hybrid based. If I wanted a hybrid boat I'd go for the Talos, which by the way is almost exactly the same. Why release a laser ship, a projectile boat, and then 2 hybrid boats. How is that even balanced. That basically gives all missile users the finger, a caldari player have to skill up in Hybrid turrets just to use it. ((To clarify, I already have all the skills for large hybrid but alot of my corpies don't. They teched up to Ravens and scorps, so they cant use a ship of their own race because they don't have the weapons for it.))
Simply put, we don't need a hybrid ship, there were no missile ships released in this patch and there should have been. It's not fair for caldari players that you release two gallente ships in one patch.
-Hellz
No |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
70
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Posted - 2012.02.08 11:55:00 -
[63] - Quote
Quote:Caldari are missile based. Not Hybrid based.
Are they really?
Merlin has hybrid bonuses Raptor has hybrid bonuses Harpy has hybrid bonuses Cormorant has hybrid bonuses Moa has hybrid bonuses Eagle has hybrid bonuses Ferox has hybrid bonuses Rokh has hybrid bonuses
So they plainly are at least partly hybrid based. |
Davader
Space Cleaners
0
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Posted - 2012.02.08 14:43:00 -
[64] - Quote
Caldari have Drake and Tengu with Nighthawk and Cerberus. Why to have one more?
Naga should stay hybrid-based. |
Jalmari Huitsikko
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
29
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Posted - 2012.02.08 14:52:00 -
[65] - Quote
a) missiles on naga were totally bad in every way b) caldari also use hybrids stfu c) be happy naga uses hybrids because missile naga sucked ass d) it's in line with other tier 3 caldari ships e) missiles on naga are bad mkay?
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Eva Yang
No-Mercy The Methodical Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.03.25 19:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
So this is Primarily a bump post, but I still argue that a cruise Naga would be great. and to be honest over half of these arguments are lacking any reasoning behind them... its all ppl saying missiles suck. and that's it. come on ppl come up with some real content... be it you hate missiles or not... and caldari are missile based... :) |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
228
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Posted - 2012.03.25 22:18:00 -
[67] - Quote
No, it would be as bad as your post. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
153
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Posted - 2012.03.26 17:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
Jesus christ are people still whining about this?
I'll put it in simple words for a simple OP: A missile Naga would be absolutely worthless. It needs guns to compete with the other tier 3s, and to do its job well.
Get over it. |
Tyran Scorpi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
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Posted - 2012.03.27 06:51:00 -
[69] - Quote
Hybrid bonuses
Merlin Raptor Harpy Cormorant Moa Eagle Falcon Tengu Ferox Vulture Rokh
Missile bonuses
Condo Hero Kestre Crow Manticore Hawk Flycatcher Caracle Cerberus Onyx Rook Tengu Drake Nighthawk Raven Golem Widow
3 hybrid frigate < 6 missile frigate 1 hybrid destroyer = 1 missile destroyer 4 hybrid cruiser < 5 missile cruiser 2 hybrid battlecruiser = 2 missile battlecruiser 1 hybrid battleship < 3 missile battleship
This is the division of ship types before you take the naga into account. The number of hybrid ships is less than or equal to the number of caldari missile boats for a given hull size, therefore, the new battlecruiser needs to be a missile boat, or at least have the capability to utilize both weapon types like the tengu. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
47
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Posted - 2012.03.27 08:51:00 -
[70] - Quote
It was a missile platform originally, but since the theme was "cheap'ish sniper" the only alternative was cruise which are quite frankly horrid hence the change to guns.
At any rate, you should train guns regardless as most of the skills cover all systems and they are pretty much superior to missiles in the vast majority of cases. |
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
155
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Posted - 2012.03.27 11:35:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tyran Scorpi wrote:A load of complete crap.
Nice job just listing off arbitrary bonuses rather than looking at what the ships are actually meant to do. Tier 3 BCs are meant for mid-long ranges, and specifically sniping. To do this, they need guns. Caldari have hybrids as their alternative weapon system, and the Naga is a great railgun platform - so this works quite nicely.
A missile Naga on the other hand is ******* worthless, and if you tried to bring one along to my tier 3 gang I'd take a good amount of time to laugh at you before kicking you out of the fleet and telling you to fit up a proper ship.
various idiots wrote:BUT THERE'S ALREADY A HYBRID TIER 3 OMFGWTFDERP Yes, yes there is, and it works completely differently to the Naga despite the shared weapon systems. The Naga has a nich+¬ that the Talos cannot fill anywhere near as effectively. Notice how it does this without using missiles, and now punch yourself in the face and learn to play.
Tyran's stupid little list wrote:herp derp derp herp derp And just because I can, I'm going to point out a few flaws in your list of missile boats.
Condor Heron - is a probing ship, the fact it has a missile bonus is purely incidental. Kestrel Crow Manticore - is a stealth bomber. All the stealth bombers have missiles, regardless of race. I don't see many threads from Minmatar whining about how their Hounds can't fit artillery, do you? Hawk Flycatcher - is a dictor, and the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role. Caracal Cerberus Onyx - is a hictor, and the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role. Rook Tengu - nice to see you listed this under both categories, missing the irony that if the Naga were made into dual missiles/hybrids, the missile variant would be worthless much like the hybrid Tengu is. Drake Nighthawk Raven Golem Widow - is an ECM/jump bridge monkey, the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role.
Naga - the fact it's hybrid bonused means it can perform its role on par with the other tier 3s.
Quote:It was a missile platform originally, but since the theme was "cheap'ish sniper" the only alternative was cruise which are quite frankly horrid hence the change to guns. Yeah, once cruises and long range missiles in general get their fix, the idea of a missile Naga might be worth considering, but I don't see the point personally. Also IIRC, the first iteration of the Naga was dual-bonused to hybrids and missiles, but the missile variant sucked balls. |
ganks theman
Planet Watchers
3
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Posted - 2012.03.27 22:58:00 -
[72] - Quote
my words missiles do not miss and do not need to level 3ters of missiles for 2t missiles bs
ganks theman =-á gangster man :P |
Tyran Scorpi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
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Posted - 2012.03.27 23:22:00 -
[73] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:stuff
Yes, I realize that the missile version would be useless in a gang/fleet, unless you were shooting structures with Torps... I would like to have both options available.
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: Heron - is a probing ship, the fact it has a missile bonus is purely incidental. Manticore - is a stealth bomber. All the stealth bombers have missiles, regardless of race. I don't see many threads from Minmatar whining about how their Hounds can't fit artillery, do you? Flycatcher - is a dictor, and the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role. Onyx - is a hictor, and the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role. Tengu - nice to see you listed this under both categories, missing the irony that if the Naga were made into dual missiles/hybrids, the missile variant would be worthless much like the hybrid Tengu is. Widow - is an ECM/jump bridge monkey, the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role.
Heron/manticore - I agree, I only included them to avoid the omg you missed something posts. Flycatcher/Onyx - They do happen to be dictors, but I also believe that they need to fix dictors so they can be used with the weapon systems they have bonuses for. Tengu - Yep, they need to fix the hybrid tengu as well. Widow - Yep, they need to fix black ops too.
Even if you remove the heron, manticore, and widow, my previous analysis stands unchanged. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3179
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 06:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
Hellz Hitman wrote:Caldari are missile based.
There are more Caldari turret bonused ships than there are Gallente drone bonused ships.
In short: there's more to Caldari than farming L4 missions with Tengus. The Naga is currently a popular and useful PvP ship. With missiles it would be almost useless.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
155
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 11:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
Quote:Flycatcher/Onyx - They do happen to be dictors, but I also believe that they need to fix dictors so they can be used with the weapon systems they have bonuses for. ... Umm, what? Damage dealing isn't their job. They have token weapon systems as they do just fine at bubbling/infinipointing, it seems they work just fine. If they were doing decent DPS, they'd have to have compromised somewhere on the "interdictor" part of their description.
Quote:Even if you remove the heron, manticore, and widow, my previous analysis stands unchanged. What analysis? You threw up a list of ships that are hybrid bonused vs those that have missiles, and then declared that the Naga should be missile bonused based on that rather than, oh let me think here... ah yeah, being a good ship.
Quote:Yes, I realize that the missile version would be useless in a gang/fleet, unless you were shooting structures with Torps... I would like to have both options available. You have no shortage of structure bashers available. Including the blaster/rail Naga, in fact.
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Tyran Scorpi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
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Posted - 2012.03.28 21:11:00 -
[76] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: ... Umm, what? Damage dealing isn't their job. They have only token weapon systems as they do just fine at bubbling/infinipointing. If they were doing decent DPS, they'd have to have compromised somewhere on the "interdictor" part of their description.
The only reason you dont see caldari dictors fitting missiles is due to using up all their powergrid on tank modules. I want to be able to fit the weapons systems those ships have bonuses for, while still being able to perform the role adequately. DPS doesnt even come into it, I dont really care about the DPS, I just want to be able to fit the weapons in the first place.
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: You have no shortage of structure bashers available. Including the blaster/rail Naga, in fact.
I am not arguing that, all I am saying is that I want to have the option of using torps on the naga. |
Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
230
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 21:28:00 -
[77] - Quote
Wow this thread still going?
I think it's safe to assume that the Naga won't be getting missiles anytime soon.
Personally I think the Naga is a kickass ship with blasters. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
155
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 22:50:00 -
[78] - Quote
Quote:The only reason you dont see caldari dictors fitting missiles is due to using up all their powergrid on tank modules. I want to be able to fit the weapons systems those ships have bonuses for, while still being able to perform the role adequately. DPS doesnt even come into it, I dont really care about the DPS, I just want to be able to fit the weapons in the first place.
If it's an Onyx - it's really not that hard to fit. If it's a Flycatcher - fitting weapons to it is a waste of money anyway.
Quote:I am not arguing that, all I am saying is that I want to have the option of using torps on the naga. So basically, you want to open up a potential balance nightmare and take up dev time, because you want a different graphic while shooting a structure. Yeah, that's an awesome justification. |
Tyran Scorpi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 00:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: Flycatcher - fitting weapons to it is a waste of money anyway.
That is a matter of opinion.
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: Yeah, that's an awesome justification.
*shrug* I was bored when I joined this thread, I want one seems as good a justification as any. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
155
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 10:03:00 -
[80] - Quote
Quote:That is a matter of opinion. It's a squishy, high priority target that can put out token DPS at best, and doesn't need weapons at all to do its job. Not really an opinion, more like common sense. If a ship has: 1. A very high chance of dying. 2. No actual use for said weapons. Then fitting them does indeed seem like a bit of a waste. |
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Rimase
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 10:35:00 -
[81] - Quote
- Amarr: Lasers
- Minmatar: Projectiles
- Gallente: Drones & Hybrids
- Caldari: Missiles & Hybrids.
amirite? |
Tyran Scorpi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 13:51:00 -
[82] - Quote
Rimase wrote:
- Amarr: Lasers
- Minmatar: Projectiles
- Gallente: Drones & Hybrids
- Caldari: Missiles & Hybrids.
amirite?
Primary/Secondary Amarr: Lasers/Missiles Minmatar: Projectiles/Missiles Gallente: Hybrids/Drones Caldari: Missiles/Hybrids
I think this is slightly more accurate. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
243
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 16:03:00 -
[83] - Quote
Rimase wrote:
- Amarr: Lasers
- Minmatar: Projectiles
- Gallente: Drones & Hybrids
- Caldari: Missiles & Hybrids.
amirite?
It's not that simple. For Caldari, missiles and hybrids are far more equal in importance, relative to the two weapon lines of any other race, where there's a clear primary and secondary divisons.
With Caldari, there are entire lines of hybrid and missile boats, and, arguably, a third of ewar boats. |
Katy Ling
Crimnson Concept Flame Flaming Nebula
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 16:31:00 -
[84] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:In order to get the most out of their race, Caldari must train missiles and hybrids.
In order to get the most out of their race, Gallente must train drones and hybrids.
I don't see the problem here.
the Talos uses hybrids, and has a small drone bay.
the Naga cannot use missiles, but it used to, in the test server phase.
- it would make perfect sense to be able to use missiles, besides hybrids and it would add more interest to the ships and you would expect the caldari Tier 3 Battlecruiser to use the guns that made Caldari famous for, the missile launchers.
and wile you're at it, all New Tier 3 bc's should have a small drone bay, anyway, not just the Talos.
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Eva Yang
No-Mercy The Methodical Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.03.29 21:12:00 -
[85] - Quote
just throwing this out there, if the naga is such a perfect hybrid boat, y do I never see any in sov space? I mean I see a lot of drakes, so would it not say that there are a lot of naga capable pilots? or do these drake pilots not like the naga?
Oh and thanks for all the posts.. :P |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
155
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 01:57:00 -
[86] - Quote
Katy Ling wrote:Jiska Ensa wrote:In order to get the most out of their race, Caldari must train missiles and hybrids.
In order to get the most out of their race, Gallente must train drones and hybrids.
I don't see the problem here. the Talos uses hybrids, and has a small drone bay. the Naga cannot use missiles, but it used to, in the test server phase. - it would make perfect sense to be able to use missiles, besides hybrids and it would add more interest to the ships and you would expect the caldari Tier 3 Battlecruiser to use the guns that made Caldari famous for, the missile launchers. and wile you're at it, all New Tier 3 bc's should have a small drone bay, anyway, not just the Talos. So much derp here I'm not even sure where to start. |
Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune Celestial Imperative
54
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 04:14:00 -
[87] - Quote
Sigh... this argument may be old, but it still stands.
The Caldari invented and primarily use Railguns as their turret system. The Gallente invented and primarily use Blasters as their turret system.
the Tier 3 battlecruisers were ALL meant to be large turret equipped battlecruisers.
there is no anti-caldari bias here. everything is working as intended.
a couple of notes on lore, as that was touched upon earlier...
Yes, the caldari favoured one man fighters over the larger, more cumbersome ships used by the federation navy.
the federation began to research drones, which started out as basically little more than rudimentary AI controlled bombs. In response the caldari began to upgrade their fighters, both sides upgrading their respective technologies over the course of the war until the drones used by the federation were almost up to hobgoblin standard and the one man fighters used by the caldari had evolved into the first generation of caldari frigates.
on a related note, the federation has many lumbering slow ships... in my experience the domi, mega and hype are all slower than a simillarly fitted raven.
anyways, to cut a long story short, railgun ships work well when you're skilled up for them, and the 5 second reload cycle makes them even more effective. the Naga is a good ship even without giving it torps or cruise missiles... while it may mean that caldari pilots have the same miss chance as the other 3 races... i don't see that as an issue.
Eva Yang... seeing many drake pilots does not in ANY WAY mean that there will be many naga pilots.... that is like saying 'you can fly a cruise misile raven really well.. so you should be able to do just as well in a rokh' ... see where that logic fails?? |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
155
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 12:17:00 -
[88] - Quote
Basically: the Naga is fine as it is, stop trying to fix what isn't broken. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
967
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 14:39:00 -
[89] - Quote
Hellz Hitman wrote:Caldari are missile based. Not Hybrid based.
Bad start, this is completely untrue.
Leaving disappointed. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
569
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 22:56:00 -
[90] - Quote
Not supported.
And I am primarily a Caldari missile user.
Train for turrets.
It took me about 2 weeks to train for every basic turret (laser, hybrid, and projectile) of every size (small, medium and large) to level 3 (large requires gunnery 5, but is rank 1), plus turret support skills to level 3. I think I spent another week or so after that training all the turret support skills to level 4, which will soon be followed by all the turrets to level 4. I'm not a turret specialist (should be obvious that I prefer to be a jack-of-all-trades) but I am functional with them. That's all it takes to have fun.
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