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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 17:37:10 -
[5491] - Quote
Wander Why not try demonstrating you grasp forum rules before moving on to more advanced game mechanic functions?
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
176
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Posted - 2016.01.11 17:41:22 -
[5492] - Quote
I'm sorry, sometimes my temper gets the better of me when I'm dealing with 5 year old kids who cannot come up with any sort of evidence except "WHAAAAAA BUT I WANNA" |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:06:38 -
[5493] - Quote
Wander You may want to try a post without being abusive. I play that game far better than you, but the moderators have instructed us to desist, so I have.
Actual game play reasons have been provided earlier in this thread. I understand that I have an excellent memory that gives me some advantage in longer discussions. But you can simply review the thread to refresh points you have forgotten.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
177
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:27:58 -
[5494] - Quote
Now now, don't let that special snowflake-syndrome show too much or someone might think you are somehow entitled.... Just because I don't play the game like you do I'm somehow worse than you? I spend about 50Gäà of my game-time in a cloaky ship scouting and hunting, so I know the mechanics quite well. That's why I am in this thread shooting down as many idiotic ideas as I can since I know what it takes to be good at using cloaks and how fragile that safety is. Cloaks are sitting at a fine balance-point and any move in either side can make them OP or useless |
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
38
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:34:39 -
[5495] - Quote
Round and round we go. :/
The cancer that this thread holds is staggering. I truly wonder why people are so abusive on this thread. Its like walking into a room where people want to kill each other for simple game mechanic changes. I get the same feeling when discussing with teenagers. I can't even form my opinions without getting personally attacked for my idea of how things should be changed for the betterment of what I think is balanced. Not only that, the entitlement of attacking people that have a different opinion of how things should be run is almost as stupid as caveman ideology. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4316
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:36:06 -
[5496] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:
Teckos You are not appreciating that for ESTABLISHED, OPTIMIZING PLAYERS there is not cost to afk cloaky camping. Its done in addition to all the active pilots they have real life time to manage and who in turn are easily able to fund all accounts any ESTABLISHED, OPTIMIZING PLAYER might care to have.
Other players can of course afk cloaky camp if they are willing to pay absurd opportunity costs to do it and after they have paid the initial 2 PLEX skill investment (which is a significant barrier). Bringing us back to:
Which is why afk cloaky camping is an established multiple account entitlement.
Afk cloaky camping is a bad game practice that should be ended without compensation.
Just ended. Snap of fingers. Gone.
Yes, there is, I have given proofs for multiple and single account holders with alts.
I have also shown why there is an opportunity cost even if it is a "useless" alt--i.e. one the player does not have time to use. Let me give again since you are having problems following the logic,
Lets assume Bob can play for 3 hours/day and 2 accounts. He has 3 characters and he plays on all 3 and what he is doing in game requires at least 1 hour of play on each character. So Bob plays on each of his 3 characters for an hour then logs. Using my usual notation,
Acct 1: Main, Alt 1
Acct 2: Alt 2 Cloaking pilot.
Now some other players who have some NS space have annoyed Bob so he decides to make a cloaky camper.
Here are the costs:
First, Bob is going to have to stop one of characters that is training to train the cloaking guy. This means that Alt 2 has to stop training and his skills level will be forever below what it otherwise would have been. That reduction in skills means that Alt 2 will be less effective at earning ISK than he otherwise would be. That is Alt 2 basically represents a stream of ISK for Bob. And the size of that stream is in part dependent on the skills/SP Alt 2 has. Since the skills and SP that Alt 2 are now forever reduced relative to not having trained the cloaking camper Alt 2's ISK stream is reduced. The effect can be seen here in regards to SP. The red line is how many SP Alt 2 acquires over time. The blue vertical lines represents the time spent training the cloaking alt, since Alt 2 cannot train at this time, Alt 2's SP shifts over the green line which is everywhere below the red line. That difference in SP and the difference in ISK that such a difference in SP engenders is an opportunity cost.
Or we can think of it this way, the only way to get the green line to be above the red line is to change the slope...and that is only possible via implants....which cost ISK.
Second, due to Bob's time constraint moving the cloaking pilot into position will mean that Bob cannot play on one of his other accounts that evening.
So there are two types of opportunity cost even in this ****-eyed view of yours.
You are quite simply wrong.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:41:44 -
[5497] - Quote
Wander I apologize profusely for so transparently thinking myself the smartest man in the room by far (though to be fair, the competition is not very robust).
Cloaks are very OP. I sold 40k nanite repair paste last week. Producing them in null-sec was about as risky as station trading in Jiita.
But the thread topic is afk cloaky camping. Which should simply be removed. Perhaps in a manner that does not inconvenience you personally more than slightly. But I could live with you being considerably inconvenienced.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:42:41 -
[5498] - Quote
Teckos I think we simply have to agree that you do not really understand that real life time is the only limiting factor for skilled and experienced players.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:44:04 -
[5499] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:I apologize profusely for so transparently thinking myself the smartest man in the room by far (though to be fair, the competition is not very robust).
Cloaks are very OP. I sold 40k nanite repair paste last week. Producing them in null-sec was about as risky as station trading in Jiita.
But the thread topic is afk cloaky camping. Which should simply be removed. Perhaps in a manner that does not inconvenience you personally more than slightly. But I could live with you being considerably inconvenienced.
f**k u jerghul :p
i am smart, intelimegent and incredibly good looking, i know cus my mum tells me :p
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:47:59 -
[5500] - Quote
Lugburz wrote:Jerghul wrote:I apologize profusely for so transparently thinking myself the smartest man in the room by far (though to be fair, the competition is not very robust).
Cloaks are very OP. I sold 40k nanite repair paste last week. Producing them in null-sec was about as risky as station trading in Jiita.
But the thread topic is afk cloaky camping. Which should simply be removed. Perhaps in a manner that does not inconvenience you personally more than slightly. But I could live with you being considerably inconvenienced. f**k u jerghul :p i am smart, intelimegent and incredibly good looking, i know cus my mum tells me :p
Hey lugz :). Truth be told, I am not very good looking (though I do have a dashing scar running from temple to jawline. Compliments of a snapped trawl wire from my fishing days...those things whip around something terrible:)).
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:53:36 -
[5501] - Quote
cloaky camping isnt much of an issue to me i must admit, i dont rat, i dont mine, i dont generally pve; the simple nfix to afk camping as i see it is simple, add a timer to cloaks; not a short timer of course, maybe an hour or so.. but to be really honest if you really think cloaky camping in null is an issue then you really shouldnt be in nullsec. Nullsec is supposed to be the most dangerous of space bar wormholes, if you cant bait a cloaky camper into dropping w/e then counter drop then in reality your the issue. Nullsec isnt supposed to be 'safe' if you think it is then well i hate to say it but you my freind are a carebear and should be living in highsec.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:17:58 -
[5502] - Quote
Lugz afk cloaky camping is a problem because it targets newer players (the idiots who actually depend on ratting and mining to fund peak time pew-pew fun); done free of cost by established, optimizing pilots
Actual carebears like me want cloaks protected so pesky pilots don't interfere with our rolling in PI and moon goo bling.
This is in other words one of my anti elitist prick (as in needle point collateral damage) rampages. You have heard them before in game.
Privileges to which they have become accustomed. Screw (as in rotate to tighten or loosen things. for example a lid or a bolt) that :D.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Digiblast
The Collective Collective Company
1
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:23:00 -
[5503] - Quote
Another Local Vote CCP?? First local removal was really close. or was it the 2nd. |
Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:41:57 -
[5504] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Lugz afk cloaky camping is a problem because it targets newer players (the idiots who actually depend on ratting and mining to fund peak time pew-pew fun); done free of cost by established, optimizing pilots
Actual carebears like me want cloaks protected so pesky pilots don't interfere with our rolling in PI and moon goo bling.
This is in other words one of my anti elitist prick (as in needle point collateral damage) rampages. You have heard them before in game.
Privileges to which they have become accustomed. Screw (as in rotate to tighten or loosen things. for example a lid or a bolt) that :D.
Thats the thing though jergs, null is supposed to be more elitist, more sp required but also its designed so that the players there need and should be able to protect themselves; its not a farm, its a serious investment of time and isk in many ways, its also the reason why pvpers leave sov holding entities, ie too much pressure placed on them to protect the guys that wont. |
Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:44:07 -
[5505] - Quote
Digiblast wrote:Another Local Vote CCP?? First local removal was really close. or was it the 2nd.
Im in favour of local chat to be removed from null (like w-space) with the exception that sov holders should have some form of structure that gives them the chat back so to speak.
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Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:45:01 -
[5506] - Quote
Nullsec is supposed to be dangerous space, its not supposed to be 'safe'; you want sov, you best damn well protect it. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:02:14 -
[5507] - Quote
Afk cloaky camping is dangerous in the wrong way. Its implicitly dangerous. A nuisance thing that only encourages newer players to limit the time they play EvE to peak periods for organized pvp events. You have probably lost out on 100ds of fights due to a third party afk cloaky camping this or that system on your roams. A player that might have fought you does not because of the unquantifiable risk an additional neut or red in that system gives.
Its also not dangerous versus the right activity as it does not impact on PI or Moon Goo collection where the actual isk is.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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SFM Hobb3s
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Psychotic Tendencies.
382
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:04:42 -
[5508] - Quote
Did I hear there are now blueprints on SISI for devices to track down cloaked players in space?
...and all it took was a week or two of SMA Gorilla's whining they were being blopsed back into the Mist. |
Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:10:34 -
[5509] - Quote
it doesnt limit play, it limits your area of play; leave system, simple. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:15:48 -
[5510] - Quote
A solution that was viable for quite some time while afk cloaky camping was more of a marginal thing. Its not so marginal now as hardware requirements are met by an ever growing mass of players (being able to nominally multi-box). Hence the need to end it.
I am not adverse to simply adapting various wormhole mechanisms to null-sec and in that way again marginalize afk cloaky camping.
But feel it is better to simply address the issue head-on.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:23:44 -
[5511] - Quote
Its really not an issue, look to bait and counter drop; you shouldnt be looking to 'make isk for pvp' when someone is potentially providing the catalyst to pvp for you. Ive popped plenty of cloaky blops droppers, and have also been dropped on; this is nullsec, this is 'endgame' content; this is dangerous space. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:36:28 -
[5512] - Quote
Its an issue. Specifically the AFK bit. Or to put it another way. The cloaky camping risk should be explicit. Someone doing it should be actively looking to blop someone (or otherwise engage). Or otherwise get hunted down for stupidly being afk while in space in null-sec.
Hell, I would not mind going afk cloaky campy extreme either: Introduce a cloaky camping drone that is active as long as the controlling pilot is in the same region. Let everyone afk cloaky camp without opportunity cost.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4316
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:37:58 -
[5513] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Teckos I think we simply have to agree that you do not really understand that real life time is the only limiting factor for skilled and experienced players.
What are you talking about, I gave an example with a hard RL time constraint...and still there was opportunity cost.
I think the more accurate thing to say is that you just don't get opportunity costs.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4316
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:43:51 -
[5514] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:A solution that was viable for quite some time while afk cloaky camping was more of a marginal thing. Its not so marginal now as hardware requirements are met by an ever growing mass of players (being able to nominally multi-box). Hence the need to end it.
I am not adverse to simply adapting various wormhole mechanisms to null-sec and in that way again marginalize afk cloaky camping.
But feel it is better to simply address the issue head-on.
And another load of hogwash. AFK cloaking is about as old as cloaks. And there is zero evidence it is becoming more prominent.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:46:28 -
[5515] - Quote
Talk to the hand Teckos.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:47:06 -
[5516] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Its an issue. Specifically the AFK bit. Or to put it another way. The cloaky camping risk should be explicit. Someone doing it should be actively looking to blop someone (or otherwise engage). Or otherwise get hunted down for stupidly being afk while in space in null-sec.
no its not an issue, either bait them and counter or move system; what your saying is basically its an issue for farmers, farming a game isnt playing a game, if you want safe isk go back to highsec or move system; ive been playing for 8 years now and still i see the same damn **** on here man 'omg i cant farm isk in peace' honestly man what part of 'its supposed to be the most dangerous space in all of new eden' dont you see? As for new players i agree that they should have relative safety, but thats what highsec is for; damn after less than two week ingame i lost my first ferox in lowsec; sure i was a tad upset, a bit bemused; but i understood IT WASNT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE SPACE.
if you want to mine or do pi safely, go back to highsec - stop trying to make nullsec a carebear paradise; its ruining the game, honestly |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:51:53 -
[5517] - Quote
Nullsec is a carebear paradise. Or to put it another way. Have you caught any blockade runners recently?
I am not against a dangerous null-sec (you caught the afk cloaky camping drone thought?). I am just against a dangerous null-sec for some like it is now.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4316
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:52:45 -
[5518] - Quote
Lugburz wrote:Jerghul wrote:Its an issue. Specifically the AFK bit. Or to put it another way. The cloaky camping risk should be explicit. Someone doing it should be actively looking to blop someone (or otherwise engage). Or otherwise get hunted down for stupidly being afk while in space in null-sec. no its not an issue, either bait them and counter or move system; what your saying is basically its an issue for farmers, farming a game isnt playing a game, if you want safe isk go back to highsec or move system; ive been playing for 8 years now and still i see the same damn **** on here man 'omg i cant farm isk in peace' honestly man what part of 'its supposed to be the most dangerous space in all of new eden' dont you see? As for new players i agree that they should have relative safety, but thats what highsec is for; damn after less than two week ingame i lost my first ferox in lowsec; sure i was a tad upset, a bit bemused; but i understood IT WASNT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE SPACE. if you want to mine or do pi safely, go back to highsec - stop trying to make nullsec a carebear paradise; its ruining the game, honestly
We have been over the list of options to people being camped and it is never enough.
Having to rat in a group...OMG no!!! Having to mine in a group, OMG no. Get on comms? Are you crazy?!?! Standing fleet? That is completely outrageous. Move over as system? My ISK/hour!!!!!
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:55:39 -
[5519] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lugburz wrote:Jerghul wrote:Its an issue. Specifically the AFK bit. Or to put it another way. The cloaky camping risk should be explicit. Someone doing it should be actively looking to blop someone (or otherwise engage). Or otherwise get hunted down for stupidly being afk while in space in null-sec. no its not an issue, either bait them and counter or move system; what your saying is basically its an issue for farmers, farming a game isnt playing a game, if you want safe isk go back to highsec or move system; ive been playing for 8 years now and still i see the same damn **** on here man 'omg i cant farm isk in peace' honestly man what part of 'its supposed to be the most dangerous space in all of new eden' dont you see? As for new players i agree that they should have relative safety, but thats what highsec is for; damn after less than two week ingame i lost my first ferox in lowsec; sure i was a tad upset, a bit bemused; but i understood IT WASNT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE SPACE. if you want to mine or do pi safely, go back to highsec - stop trying to make nullsec a carebear paradise; its ruining the game, honestly We have been over the list of options to people being camped and it is never enough. Having to rat in a group...OMG no!!! Having to mine in a group, OMG no. Get on comms? Are you crazy?!?! Standing fleet? That is completely outrageous. Move over as system? My ISK/hour!!!!!
basically this ^ |
Lugburz
Piraholics Anonymous Cede Nullis
10
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:57:50 -
[5520] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Nullsec is a carebear paradise. Or to put it another way. Have you caught any blockade runners recently?
I am not against a dangerous null-sec (you caught the afk cloaky camping drone thought?). I am just against a dangerous null-sec for some like it is now.
it isnt or shouldnt be a carebear paradise dude, take a good look at the security status of the system and rethink.
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