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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:49:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Eilie The first one is popular knowledge. It happened about a month ago and the GM was fired, but CCP almost didn't find out about it because of their stupid forum rules... So I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened other times too...
And in the public discussion that was allowed about that case, the GMs and Devs made it clear that that he would have been caught anyway during the regular audits of GM account activity. The forum post just sped up the process a bit, at the cost of generating a lot of angst and ranting because of the incomplete or incorrect imformation coming from players, exaserbated because so many forum readers are too impatient to even wait 12 hours until normal working hours so someone of sufficient seniority could resolve the situation. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
fuze
Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.07 09:45:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Boonaki Someone should create forums for discussing moderation, petitions, and GM responses.
Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing. |
Terraform
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.09.07 09:59:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Terraform on 07/09/2006 09:59:10
Originally by: Rodj Blake
GMs are like football refs - their decision is theirs alone, it's a tough job that mostly gets done well, and they deeserve a bit of respect for doing it.[/quote
Is that so? Indeed!
My new sig, like it? |
Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.09.07 10:00:00 -
[34]
Originally by: fuze
Originally by: Boonaki Someone should create forums for discussing moderation, petitions, and GM responses.
Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing.
Then go pay for a forum that has it. ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Benco97
Gallente Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.07 10:06:00 -
[35]
I think they do fine, yes, i've been on their bad side too over the years. If we all knew everything thery did it would be utter chaos. "But blahblah got HIS ship back, why can't I have mine?!" It's a good thing that we don't know it all about their actions.
Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (F.A.G) and Registered Fedo breeder |
Zikke
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.09.07 10:26:00 -
[36]
I DMed (Basically a GM) on a popular Neverwinter Nights server a while back and let me tell you: It's tough work.
Every single player is watching your actions. If the entire server knows about it, conflicts may arise. One GM may tell someone different than another. Chaos ensues and the entire world explodes. Then rabid chipmunks from the kingdom far far down below us begin gnawing at our toenails.
Er anyways, I think the reason why it's not allowed to be talked about is because it would cause too many problems. No one's perfect but some people expect GMs to be.
Just my .02 isk. -------- Get over it. (TM) |
Wild Rho
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.09.07 10:34:00 -
[37]
GM's are regular people like us and having their very actions constantly scutinised and judged by people who don't have all (or any) facts at hand would make their job miserable. It's already a fairly thankless task, no point in making it harder.
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
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Mrmuttley
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2006.09.07 10:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Mrmuttley FWIW i didn't hear that particular roumor and nor do i want to know the details its between CCP and their employee.
It wasn't a rumor (although the rude mods accused people of spreading rumors at first) and some devs did eventually post and confirm it. You can still read the thread here.
I'm not accusing any current GMs of anything, but my point is that with the forum rules, they could easily break the rules and no one would be able to say anything since it's impossible to directly contact the devs (as far as I know)
(I'm surprised this thread isn't even locked yet...)
Okay I read that thread ( took me a while as I read it in between calls at work )
Bearing in mind I only have the details from that thread I surmise that
- Noobie GM screwed up and got dealt with quite correctly by CCP Games
- Public ruckus on the forums only speeded up detection of the problem. Problem would have been detected anyways
- Could have been dealt with a little more effectively but end result was good.
- All I see in the thread are mods suggesting people settle down and let the GMs Investigate.
If I suspected a problem then I personally would probablyhave emailed [email protected]. Him being the community manager I would assume he would be ideally placed to pass on to the correct parties for investigation.
Again I ask you why do uninvolved parties need to be allowed to discuss the details on the forum. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am Dyslexic of Borg.
Your ass will be laminated.
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Eve is not supposed to be fair
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Valkazm
Amarr Cursed Spawn Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:13:00 -
[39]
All your answers are here OP
Cursed Spawn recruitment |
pilgrim8
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:26:00 -
[40]
hmm,
just get a forum/message based program and make your private game/forum message thingie
make it with no title of whats it about no references to any name/title that will discern who/what's it about(i.e. not mentioning the games name)
i gotta try and dig up the one i used in my last game for our forums
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Epsilon 1
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:27:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ephemeron It's much harder to control people if they have freedom of expression. It's too tempting for people in power to exercise censorship, because it's so easy to get away with.
This is your answer.
Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
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Zaphod Jones
Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:28:00 -
[42]
In the two and a half years I've played I have never had a problem with GM's, Dev's or any CCP personnel, they have always acted in a professional manner and listened to reasoned arguments and usually acted upon them as such.
The only problem as I see it at present is the over zealous moderation by ISD's new forum police. These guys should, in my book should be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
My personal opinion is that they have probably recruited some newer members of the EVE community to act as forum police and these members have not actively participated in the forums in which they are moderating enough to justify their presence.
This post will probably get deleted, as such I will copy it to http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com (where all free speaking forum warriors end up) as well so that a permanent record is kept.
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James Snowscoran
Caldari Coreli Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:50:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Mrmuttley
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Mrmuttley FWIW i didn't hear that particular roumor and nor do i want to know the details its between CCP and their employee.
It wasn't a rumor (although the rude mods accused people of spreading rumors at first) and some devs did eventually post and confirm it. You can still read the thread here.
I'm not accusing any current GMs of anything, but my point is that with the forum rules, they could easily break the rules and no one would be able to say anything since it's impossible to directly contact the devs (as far as I know)
(I'm surprised this thread isn't even locked yet...)
Okay I read that thread ( took me a while as I read it in between calls at work )
Bearing in mind I only have the details from that thread I surmise that
- Noobie GM screwed up and got dealt with quite correctly by CCP Games
- Public ruckus on the forums only speeded up detection of the problem. Problem would have been detected anyways
- Could have been dealt with a little more effectively but end result was good.
- All I see in the thread are mods suggesting people settle down and let the GMs Investigate.
If I suspected a problem then I personally would probablyhave emailed [email protected]. Him being the community manager I would assume he would be ideally placed to pass on to the correct parties for investigation.
Again I ask you why do uninvolved parties need to be allowed to discuss the details on the forum.
Actually, you're very wrong...if people hadn't posted about it on the forum and made sure it was solved quickly, the officer mods that GM put on his ship would have been sold and traded left and right, possibly several times each, so that the problem would've been a real nightmare to solve without making a bunch of people very ****** off because the estamel item they just bought for 400 mill suddenly disappeared. -----
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Mrmuttley
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2006.09.07 13:09:00 -
[44]
You say I'm wrong yet you haven't contradicted anything I said.
Yes if the items had been traded some pilots would have got upset without doubt. The items being traded before the GMs took action is by no means certain as very high value items tend to take a bit longer to trade (think days to auction/transport) as the seller wants to get the best possible price for an ultra rare mod. Compare that to the forum discussion and a lot of uninvolved people getting upset with CCP apparently "Just on general principles"
The OP was about not being allowed to discuss specifics of GM / Mod activity. I have yet to see a remotely convincing arguement in favour. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am Dyslexic of Borg.
Your ass will be laminated.
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Eve is not supposed to be fair
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Duranis Satosith
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.07 13:16:00 -
[45]
Because discussing GM/Forum mod decisions on this forum would be a stupid idea. For one we would not have and would never have the full facts. People whining that their account has been banned will always put a spin on it to make themselves look better and CCP employees would not be allowed to disclose private information about peoples accouts on a public forum. Therefore any discussion would be completely pointless.
By using the forums and playing eve you basically agree to anything CCP say. In this case it makes perfect sense but even if it didnt you can either live with it or not.
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Duranis Satosith
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.07 13:18:00 -
[46]
Originally by: fuze
Originally by: Boonaki Someone should create forums for discussing moderation, petitions, and GM responses.
Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing.
Most people demand freedom of speech to make up for freedom of thought which they seem to lack. (cant remeber who orginally said this but it is so true)
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.07 13:28:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ephemeron It's much harder to control people if they have freedom of expression. It's too tempting for people in power to exercise censorship, because it's so easy to get away with.
Rephrasing for the other side of the argument:
It's much easier to control people if you have freedom of expression. It's too tempting for people without power to exercise falsehood, because it's so easy to get away with.
If people can talk about something, some of them will inevitably lie about it. This is even more likely when they know that CCP staff can't post back and disprove your lies due to confidentiality. And even if they did, there's some people here who would inevitably believe any evidence posted was a cover-up.
What I find interesting is the inequality on burdens of proof people on these forums apply. They'll believe pretty much anything another player says, however outgrageous or unlikely, but even the most well-structured and detailed responses from the Devs will bring accusations of lies and cover-ups. They automatically trust the "annonymous source", the "friend of a friend", the unknown, faceless player, who has nothing to lose and everything to gain by making things up. Yet they automatically distrust the CCP employee who's every action is overseen and audited, and who's job, their ability to pay their rent and put food on their table, depends on them behaving properly.
Of course, we should not discount the possibility that the annonymous player is telling the truth, nor that the CCP employee is lying. But those should not be the starting assumption.
There's also a significant inequality in the burden of behaviour that people seem to apply. It seems to be the expectation that the players can behave however badly they like, yet the GMs are expected to be perfect at all times.
People want to come here and moan about the GM's as much as they like. How would you feel if the opposite happened? If GM's started posting whining threads "Look what player X called my mother!" etc, some of which even complained about things players hadn't actually done. I'm sure the clamour for moderating those posts would be deafening.
If you want the GM's to treat you in a professional manner, it's not too much to ask that you behave the same way towards them. You would expect a GM doing otherwise to be censured for their actions, so you should expect to be too.
Originally by: James Snowscoran Actually, you're very wrong...if people hadn't posted about it on the forum and made sure it was solved quickly, the officer mods that GM put on his ship would have been sold and traded left and right, possibly several times each, so that the problem would've been a real nightmare to solve without making a bunch of people very ****** off because the estamel item they just bought for 400 mill suddenly disappeared.
Even if that had happened, it's still a lot less people affected than the whole forum pubic outrage route.
Besides, you're focussing on pretty much the only about-a-GM thread that actually had a positive effect, however minimal. Frankly, that one incident is not worth allowing the forums to be constantly spammed up with the usual pointless GM whine threads. Cause that's what would happen if the rule was lifted. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
James Snowscoran
Caldari Coreli Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.07 21:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: James Snowscoran Actually, you're very wrong...if people hadn't posted about it on the forum and made sure it was solved quickly, the officer mods that GM put on his ship would have been sold and traded left and right, possibly several times each, so that the problem would've been a real nightmare to solve without making a bunch of people very ****** off because the estamel item they just bought for 400 mill suddenly disappeared.
Even if that had happened, it's still a lot less people affected than the whole forum pubic outrage route.
Besides, you're focussing on pretty much the only about-a-GM thread that actually had a positive effect, however minimal. Frankly, that one incident is not worth allowing the forums to be constantly spammed up with the usual pointless GM whine threads. Cause that's what would happen if the rule was lifted.
Actually, that's not true, I didn't bring up the example myself, and if you had bothered to read my earlier posts you'd know I'm against discussing individual cases of moderation, I was just reposnding because some guy was saying it would've been better to have that issue solved in private, which I don't hold too much faith in tbh.
And your arguing carries other wierd implications too. The GM abusing his priviledges thing was originally someone ganking a rattlesnake (I think?) and going zomg wtf when they found a full stash of officer loot in its hold. Are you seriously suggesting that when something extraordinary happens in EVE, people should shutup because they might be infringing on the comforts of some GM? -----
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Hellspawn01
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.09.07 21:56:00 -
[49]
Imagine we could discuss GM decisions here.
GM1 gives player1 his ship back which he lost to lag. GM2 gives player2 not back which he lost to lag.
Can you imagine the consequences if player2 starts a forum war cuz player1 got his ships back? Its a case by case decision. They do a great job and the last what CCP/GMs would want to see is endless whining about petitions not worked out propers aka not as players want.
GMs, you are doing a great job *[insert noises of ass kissing here]*
Ship lovers click here |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.07 22:46:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Eilie Edited by: Eilie on 07/09/2006 07:53:48
Originally by: Rules Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue. You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned.
Warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum. Such matters shall remain private between the CCP and the user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through e-mail or private messaging. Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread, please contact [email protected].
Whenever I read those rules, all I think it that they only exist to cover-up the corrupt GMs that break the rules/eula...
Some things I have seen posted were: GM giving their other account uber items. GM allowing account thiefs to keep the character and only giving the empty account back to the original owner.
But what is worst than corrupt GMs are the really rude forum mods who say to "put on a t2 tinfoil hat" when someone posts about them...
I'd ask you for proof, but the only proof you'd give would be the thread that discussed the cheat ship which got a new GM fired.
What is worse than 'corrupt' GMs are the morons that think privacy is always some sort of coverup.
Now clearly, we can see from your condemnation of GMs, that you can do their job much better, and CCP should jump to hire you.
Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath |
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.09.07 23:37:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Kldraina on 07/09/2006 23:41:49 Edited by: Kldraina on 07/09/2006 23:39:25 Basically, giving people the ability to speak freely on the forums, is giving them power. Power corrupts, and in a game where lies and backstabbing are the norm, giving them more power is very dangerous. Giving players the ability to speak freely without giving GMs the same ability, would be downright suicidal. Do you really want every single petition you make to appear on the forums? |
The1
Amarr ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.07 23:46:00 -
[52]
Edited by: The1 on 07/09/2006 23:48:25
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Spanker Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot.
Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's.
Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this.
Really, so I guess taking out the guy who ruled by threats, fear, mass murder, repression, ect...was not a good idea? Wake up man, we are at war for the very soul of humanity. Its either islamic fasicism or freedom. I, for one, am glad we have a president who knows this.
What has the rest of the world done to stop the rise of radical Islam?? Oh yes, nothing. The same countries who sat around and looked the other way while H1tl3r came to power are doing it all over again. I am sure gald at least one world leader has his head out of his a$$!
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Turin
Caldari RONA Deepspace Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.09.08 00:09:00 -
[53]
It is quite simple. They dont want the users to compare notes. If we were able to do that, then people would see what a messed up job that is done.
Case in point. Me and a frind of mine were killed a while back due to an exploit. We both petitioned. We both got DIFFERANT GM's. The situation was identicle, as we were together. I got my ship replaced, he didnt.
So why the differant conclusions No one knows.
The sad part is that The GM that helped my friend then convod me and threatened to ban me for discussing my ship replacement with the person I was ganged with.
________________________________________________________
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.08 00:35:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 08/09/2006 00:37:23
Originally by: Eilie knowledge. It happened about a month ago and the GM was fired, but CCP almost didn't find out about it because of their stupid forum rules... So I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened other times too...
It's hard to tell if you're ignorant or just ignored osts in that thread.
All GM actions are logged, and the logs get reviewed. The players posting about it made them look at it sooner, it still would've been discovered.
edit: and iirc, you said with your friend that they had been gone a year or so?
Why should your friend be given his old character + a year (or however long) of skills? That situation was lose-lose, and if the account was truly 'hacked', I have a hard time believing CCP just let the person keep something they stole.
Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.08 00:36:00 -
[55]
Because policy won't change, except to become harsher. There was a long thread. We were told at the end what CCP would do if they did make changes. After almost everyone asking for something else.
There's no point. Move on.
//Maya |
Mrmuttley
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2006.09.08 08:36:00 -
[56]
Damn! So far people are keeping this pretty reasonable. Thank you to the mods for accepting this and not just locking it for just mentioning the words GM /Petition Response / Moderation etc etc.
One thing I personally would love to see is the GMs posting the "Top Ten Dumbest Petitions" every month or so. Anyone who has ever worked with customer will know that there will be some really special ones. That alone 9technically0 is reason not to allow GMs to discuss petitions. If they can't discuss them then neither should we the players.
One thing to remember is that you should always keep things in perspective. First of all if you can do a better job apply for the job. Secondly its a game. If the level of GM support is not acceptable stop playing and stop paying. Thats not meant as a "Go back to WoW" comment it is just reminding you that you do have a choice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am Dyslexic of Borg.
Your ass will be laminated.
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Eve is not supposed to be fair
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Saucerhead
Forum Moderator
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Posted - 2006.09.08 08:45:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Za Po Why should moderation be discussed? Either you have proof that a GM did something wrong, or it's only your opinion. In the first case, you should contact CCP and posting on the forums won't help you. In the second, CCP has no reason to act against the GM, so it won't, regardless of how much you whine.
Basically, discussing moderation on the forums is only a way to gather pressure against GMs without having proof that they misbehaved. Very handy for people that break the rules: you're wrong, you know you're wrong, the GM knows you're wrong, but let's ***** about it anyway. Nothing good can come out of it.
I think this sums up the matter pretty well. --
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James Snowscoran
Caldari Coreli Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.08 08:54:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Saucerhead
Originally by: Za Po Why should moderation be discussed? Either you have proof that a GM did something wrong, or it's only your opinion. In the first case, you should contact CCP and posting on the forums won't help you. In the second, CCP has no reason to act against the GM, so it won't, regardless of how much you whine.
Basically, discussing moderation on the forums is only a way to gather pressure against GMs without having proof that they misbehaved. Very handy for people that break the rules: you're wrong, you know you're wrong, the GM knows you're wrong, but let's ***** about it anyway. Nothing good can come out of it.
I think this sums up the matter pretty well.
Fair enough.
So what about forum moderation? Why can't we discuss the rules of that? -----
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Saucerhead
Forum Moderator
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Posted - 2006.09.08 09:11:00 -
[59]
Originally by: James Snowscoran
Fair enough.
So what about forum moderation? Why can't we discuss the rules of that?
You can. What you cannot do is discuss specific instances of moderation - because: 1. We consider them involving only player being moderated and moderator team, not any third parties. 2. We communicate about it using email privately, not on forums.
Note that threads about general rules of moderation have a sad tendency do degenerate into bringing up specific examples of moderation and flames against the moderator team, which often leaves us no choice but to lock them. --
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.08 09:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: James Snowscoran Actually, that's not true, I didn't bring up the example myself, and if you had bothered to read my earlier posts you'd know I'm against discussing individual cases of moderation, I was just reposnding because some guy was saying it would've been better to have that issue solved in private, which I don't hold too much faith in tbh.
OK, so the question then becomes, how do you know beforehand which threads are going to be ones like that, with a (debatably) positive effect, and which are going to be the usual useless spam? The balance of probability is heavily skewed towards the spam. If a couple of useful posts, which should be being reported through the proper channels anyway, get suppressed in return for preventing this forum turning from "General Discussion" into "GM Bashing", then that's a price worth paying.
Originally by: James Snowscoran And your arguing carries other wierd implications too. The GM abusing his priviledges thing was originally someone ganking a rattlesnake (I think?) and going zomg wtf when they found a full stash of officer loot in its hold. Are you seriously suggesting that when something extraordinary happens in EVE, people should shutup because they might be infringing on the comforts of some GM?
Not shut up, no. Just express themselves through the appropriate channels in the appropriate way. Don't trust the petitions cause you think it's a corrupt GM, then email kieron. Don't trust anyone at CCP? Then why are you giving them your money and installing their software on your computer?
This is the sort of thing i was talking about with the inequality in burdens of proof. People take the player at his word, but automatically assume that CCP is dishonest and covering it up. They then take a few hours delay in responding to be "proof" of the cover-up, when in reality it may be because it was the middle of the night and the Head GM and 99% of the devs were in bed. Or that they want to be sure of the facts before posting anything. After all, if "corrupt GM" accusations turn out to be true, it's someone's job on the line, with RL legal implications. You have to be very sure about publicly commenting on such things, otherwise you end up getting sued. Even after the situation has been resolved, and a full explanation of what had happend given out, even though someone may have lost their job, people still say CCP is covering up. Others claim that it was only the public exposure that had forced action, even if no other route had been tried first.
That's the whole problem with the "keeping CCP honest" argument for free forum posting. If you don't trust CCP enough to feel you need that, then you're also not going to trust them enough to believe any solution they post.
Another thing some people seem to take as evidence of cover-ups, is the innocent until proven guilty line taken by CCP in relation to accusations directed at GMs. Imagine if you were that GM. Do you really want GMs that have to fear for their job every time you make a decision someone doesn't like? Do you want players to be able to use that threat to sway GM decisions? That would just make it far harder to give equal treatment to all, rather than preferential treatment to anyone who can muster a forum lynch mob. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
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