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bundy bear
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Posted - 2006.09.06 06:55:00 -
[1]
Was comparing high end shield tanks to high end armor tanks and I was very very surprised at the results. Useing nothing but the very best gear (usually gist x-type vs centus x-type) shield tanks will always come out on top by a very long way. I talked to an old friend who uses a caldari navy raven for missions. He uses a caldari navy raven with gist x-type shield mods and a full crystal set. I got out quickfit and tried to see how well an armor equivilent setup did and was very dissapointed at the results.
Whay are gist and other high end shield mods so much better than corpum/centus and other high end armor mods? Also i couldnt find any armor version of crystal implants. Is there ever going to be an armor version of crystal implants or do armor tankers just have it bad? Should i stop using apoc and just go raven like everyone else so i can start using shield tanks?
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Hamatitio
Caldari ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.06 07:01:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Hamatitio on 06/09/2006 07:01:34 armor tanking is easier and cheaper (in most cases).
And you will probably get flamed for about 3 pages before an eventual lock, fyi :\. --- I'm going through sigs fast these days. |
Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.09.06 07:06:00 -
[3]
Its because god himself is Caldari
Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Sandra Tseng
THE MISPHIT'S
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Posted - 2006.09.06 07:08:00 -
[4]
Hang god
_ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg |
bundy bear
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Posted - 2006.09.06 07:12:00 -
[5]
Edited by: bundy bear on 06/09/2006 07:14:05 Just looking at stats now.
Gist x-type x-large shield booster repairs 672 shields every 4 seconds using 183.6 cap.
thast 168hp/s for 3.66hp/cap
centus x-typ LAR gives 1260 armor every 11.25 seconds using 450 cap.
thats 112hp/s for 2.8hp/cap
As you can see it boost ALOT more hp for alot less cap. Then you can add in your boost amp and for the same ammount of cap you get alot more shields. Also invulnerability fields add alot more than energised adaptives then theres the option of going for a crystal implant set which makes shields even better.
EDIT
Also forgot to mention shield users have option of passive tank and its easy to fit oversized boosters on cruiser sized ships
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Terraform
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:06:00 -
[6]
i completely agree, let's nerf shields... and while we're at it, let's nerf everything down so we can only use civilian modules... that should make things iteresting.¦
My new sig, like it? |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:13:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 06/09/2006 08:13:43 but if you want to be effective in any thing besides tanking you have to sacrifice some of your med slots to the ab/ew, which takes away from the shield tank. as of lows, you can tank with them all, you don't even need a cap relay because you can fit cap booster in med. as I understand it, shield needs to be more effective to compensate for that.
though yes, a dedicated shield tank is way better that armor tank which makes it better for pve.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:36:00 -
[8]
Shield tanks and armour tanks just aren't the same thing. Whatever arguments about efficiency you wish to make, the fundamental difference is that one uses med slot modules, and the other uses low slot modules.
That's leaving aside the general attributes of the ships that favour either style, e.g. cap sizes, vs. shield recharge.
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bundy bear
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 06/09/2006 08:13:43 but if you want to be effective in any thing besides tanking you have to sacrifice some of your med slots to the ab/ew, which takes away from the shield tank. as of lows, you can tank with them all, you don't even need a cap relay because you can fit cap booster in med. as I understand it, shield needs to be more effective to compensate for that.
though yes, a dedicated shield tank is way better that armor tank which makes it better for pve.
Please stay on topic. If your using a high end shield tank like gist x and want slots for EW your just an idiot for using it in pvp.
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Jude Kopenhagen
Caldari Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:56:00 -
[10]
Did you take skills into considiration? Shield tanking has 5 basic skills, not counting compensation skills, where armour only has two. Thus learning armour tanking is much faster and makes sense that shield tankers should get their times worth.
No with your other comparison, you speak of adding a boost amp - ok, add another armour rep to keep slots equal, invuln field, add a 1600mm plate. So firstly you have to keep slots equal in comparisons, and then you have to look at what you sacrifice in order to have such a shield tank, or armour tank for that matter. Even passive shield tanks take an insane amount of slots to be really great.
Thus this comparison needs to take a lot more into account that just a few modules, a holistic approach is needed in terms of what either tank allows you to do with your ship.
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Shadowsword
Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: James Lyrus Shield tanks and armour tanks just aren't the same thing. Whatever arguments about efficiency you wish to make, the fundamental difference is that one uses med slot modules, and the other uses low slot modules.
That's leaving aside the general attributes of the ships that favour either style, e.g. cap sizes, vs. shield recharge.
Both have the same use, however, and a lot (most?) ship don't have the otpion to choose between armor and shield tanking. So, at equal cost, they should be more or less equally effective.
Shield tanking and armor tanking are diferent, but since they do the same thing for a roughly equivalent of fitting cost and slots, their result should be comparable.
It's the case with T2 modules, but with faction mods/implants, things get totally out of whack.
------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy. |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.06 09:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jude Kopenhagen Did you take skills into considiration? Shield tanking has 5 basic skills, not counting compensation skills, where armour only has two. Thus learning armour tanking is much faster and makes sense that shield tankers should get their times worth.
No with your other comparison, you speak of adding a boost amp - ok, add another armour rep to keep slots equal, invuln field, add a 1600mm plate. So firstly you have to keep slots equal in comparisons, and then you have to look at what you sacrifice in order to have such a shield tank, or armour tank for that matter. Even passive shield tanks take an insane amount of slots to be really great.
Thus this comparison needs to take a lot more into account that just a few modules, a holistic approach is needed in terms of what either tank allows you to do with your ship.
My raven outtanks most ships by using 4 medslots while i need 5 lows on armor tanks.
But OP is discussing HI END armor tank vs HI END shield tank, and we know who's the winner there (lol @ shield tanked vindicator WTFpwning everything,,, coming soon). t2 are sort of ballanced apart the fact that ECM > shield tank, so shield tanking makes no sense. --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me. |
bundy bear
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Posted - 2006.09.06 09:18:00 -
[13]
Tech II is kinda balanced or close to it but when you look at the best mods on both sides shield is way ahead of armor. Even with dual centus-x type armor reps a gist x-l shield booster + shield boost amp will still way outperform.
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MrRookie
Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L
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Posted - 2006.09.06 09:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: bundy bear Edited by: bundy bear on 06/09/2006 07:14:05 Just looking at stats now.
Gist x-type x-large shield booster repairs 672 shields every 4 seconds using 183.6 cap.
thast 168hp/s for 3.66hp/cap
centus x-typ LAR gives 1260 armor every 11.25 seconds using 450 cap.
thats 112hp/s for 2.8hp/cap
As you can see it boost ALOT more hp for alot less cap. Then you can add in your boost amp and for the same ammount of cap you get alot more shields. Also invulnerability fields add alot more than energised adaptives then theres the option of going for a crystal implant set which makes shields even better.
EDIT
Also forgot to mention shield users have option of passive tank and its easy to fit oversized boosters on cruiser sized ships
Normaly i think comparing officer and complex loot is silly but I do find the gist type boosters slightly uber. To give a bether picture of it:
Comparing 2x centus repairers with a gist x-type XL booster + a tech 1 shield boost amp Centus: 2520 HP using 900 cap over 11,25 secs. 224HP/80cap/s Gist: 873,6 HP using 183,6 cap over 4 secs. 218,4HP/45,9cap/s
And this is only a regular T1 Shield boost amp and it's is easy to obtain alot bether ones which makes faction shield tanking by far superiour, not to mention the way overpowered crystal set that can be added on top of that to make stupidly overpowered tank out of it.
Then again discussing armor/shield balance based on on this is nearly as silly Btw, the Slave implant set is the armor equalent of the crystal set but that one adds a bonus to the HP and not repair amount ________________________________________________
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CptEagle
Gallente Stargate Command...
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Posted - 2006.09.06 12:03:00 -
[15]
You are completly correct, I was discussing this with a friend yesterday and the conclusion was that the dev who made all the uber mods is infact Caldari.
Boost uber armor mods!
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.06 12:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Its because god himself is Caldari
Alliaanna
So true --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.06 13:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: James Lyrus Shield tanks and armour tanks just aren't the same thing. Whatever arguments about efficiency you wish to make, the fundamental difference is that one uses med slot modules, and the other uses low slot modules.
That's leaving aside the general attributes of the ships that favour either style, e.g. cap sizes, vs. shield recharge.
Both have the same use, however, and a lot (most?) ship don't have the otpion to choose between armor and shield tanking. So, at equal cost, they should be more or less equally effective.
Shield tanking and armor tanking are diferent, but since they do the same thing for a roughly equivalent of fitting cost and slots, their result should be comparable.
It's the case with T2 modules, but with faction mods/implants, things get totally out of whack.
Define 'cost'? By shield tanking my raven, I therefore cannot fit webbers, scramblers, ECMs, tracking disruptors, remote sensor dampeners. Or even cap recharges, cap injectors, microwarpdrives or ... well a long list
There's a similar, discrete list for armour tanking.
We could make a similar comparison for slot availability, e.g. apocalypse and 'geddon have what? 7 and 8 lowslots, where the 'shield tank' ships, Raven and Tempest (and maybe a few others) do not have 8 mids. (OK, scorp does, I'll grant, but then you're trading off your shield tank against your ship bonuses)
More slots, as a rule, means a better tank, as you can stack in hardeners, rechargers/relays (except cap power relays are bad for shield boosting), additional repairer, booster amplifier, etc.
Or we could even start to wave around average resistances (slightly better on armour), or even how badly shields suck vs EM/Thermal (e.g. lasers) and armour gets shredded vs. projectiles (all that explosive/kinetic).
Or I could re-iterate my original point. They're just different.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.06 13:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Its because god himself is Caldari
Alliaanna
So true
Yes, I am actually. But I didn't design the faction mods.
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Mable
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.06 13:27:00 -
[19]
Originally by: bundy bear Was comparing high end shield tanks to high end armor tanks and I was very very surprised at the results. Useing nothing but the very best gear (usually gist x-type vs centus x-type) shield tanks will always come out on top by a very long way. I talked to an old friend who uses a caldari navy raven for missions. He uses a caldari navy raven with gist x-type shield mods and a full crystal set. I got out quickfit and tried to see how well an armor equivilent setup did and was very dissapointed at the results.
Whay are gist and other high end shield mods so much better than corpum/centus and other high end armor mods? Also i couldnt find any armor version of crystal implants. Is there ever going to be an armor version of crystal implants or do armor tankers just have it bad? Should i stop using apoc and just go raven like everyone else so i can start using shield tanks?
Pith X-Type Hardeners are better than Gist X-Type (64% vs 61%). For the price you pay for one Gist X-Type Shield Set you can buy 3 or more Centus X-Type Sets. So the armor tanking stuff usually is more common, only very rich people will use a Gist X-Type set in PvP, but Centus stuff is also for the not absolutely rich peoples available.
The armor version of crystal implants is called Slave implants. The idea behind armor tank is not 'holding armor at 100%', it's mor like 'survive long enough to kill all your enemies'. Therefore its easier to run armor repairer infinite than to do it with shield gear. On my ratting Apoc I can run all Lasers (all L, no small or medium), hardeners and 1 Large repairer infinite, cap never drops below 65%, so I can run an additional second large armor repairer for long time. On my Raven I cannot run 1 Gist X-type XLarge shield booster infinite.
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Arimai
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.09.06 13:36:00 -
[20]
Originally by: James Lyrus We could make a similar comparison for slot availability, e.g. apocalypse and 'geddon have what? 7 and 8 lowslots, where the 'shield tank' ships, Raven and Tempest (and maybe a few others) do not have 8 mids. (OK, scorp does, I'll grant, but then you're trading off your shield tank against your ship bonuses)
let's start it then?
I seem to recall some ships have a dmg bonus? So, basically, using tanking mods detracts from your ship bonusses.
Ok, i'm glad to have that out of the way.
Now on resistances: shields (3 ranks to V) photon II + 2x invul II: 72-79-69-59 w/ 3 mods armor, 3x eanm with compensations to V (11 ranks of skills to V): 80-60-62-67
Is it me, or is it better to use shieldmods, if you want resistances? High-end mods only further unbalances this, it's sad imho, especially with cap boosting being as normal as it is atm.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.06 14:50:00 -
[21]
i know with the Ferox i run a godly shield tank for missions but i give up lots of DPS(i think i give up lots of DPS, but i have high missle skills and with no real parsing engine i cant compair 250mm with iridium(with dual Magstab 2s) against heavy missles(with dual BCUs, soon to be BCU2s when i get the money up).
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Arimai
Originally by: James Lyrus We could make a similar comparison for slot availability, e.g. apocalypse and 'geddon have what? 7 and 8 lowslots, where the 'shield tank' ships, Raven and Tempest (and maybe a few others) do not have 8 mids. (OK, scorp does, I'll grant, but then you're trading off your shield tank against your ship bonuses)
let's start it then?
I seem to recall some ships have a dmg bonus? So, basically, using tanking mods detracts from your ship bonusses.
Ok, i'm glad to have that out of the way.
Now on resistances: shields (3 ranks to V) photon II + 2x invul II: 72-79-69-59 w/ 3 mods armor, 3x eanm with compensations to V (11 ranks of skills to V): 80-60-62-67
Is it me, or is it better to use shieldmods, if you want resistances? High-end mods only further unbalances this, it's sad imho, especially with cap boosting being as normal as it is atm.
You're comparing 3x active hardeners to 3x passives.
Also there are more shield skills and they have higher ranks.
Shield: 5x skills (rank 1,2,2,3,4) + 4 compensation skills. Armor: 2x skills (rank 1,2) + 4 compensation skills.
Armor tanking is less cap consuming and armor tanks generally have higher HP (balanced somewhat by shield regeneration). I might add that armor has higher base resists than shield and recieves racial resistance bonuses while shields don't.
The free lowslots gained from sheild tanking are usually used for tanking support and damage mods just like the free medslots of armor tankers are used for tackling and tanking support.
I'd still say dedicated shield tanks are in many ways better than armor tanks for short combat (although cap injectors have made them much easier to sustain) but they are still rare in pvp due to the lack of tackling and EW. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Yual
Minmatar Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mable On my Raven I cannot run 1 Gist X-type XLarge shield booster infinite.
Thats like complaining that you cant run a Large Rep forever on a cruiser. If you could even FIT a large rep onto a cruiser....
Originally by: W.W. Smith
"Consistancy is a hallmark of a small mind."
ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI |
Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:37:00 -
[24]
there is imbalance in the shield/armor tank situation imo, because of the fact that the idea is that
1. Armor tanks are sustainable long term defense systems, shields are unsustainable short term heavy tank
this is disadvantage is nullified by the gist mods
2. Referring to point 1, whereas in pvp you'll hardly ever meet a situation which requires a sustainable tank since most pvp sessions last under a minute and I've never seen a shield tank that can't hold out a minute
(unless you maybe fit a large booster on a retribution or something but then you deserve to die anyway)
The idea is fine but because of the way eve is played (and the gist mods) shield tanks were made a bit overpowered
(i mean **** the ''i can't ew'' crap, armor tanks can't EW either cuz they have the med slots, and you can fit a very nice 3-slot shield tank which will leave room for EW on a raven and stuff)
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Blind Man
Caldari Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:38:00 -
[25]
if uber shield mods are touched, a lot of people will lose a rediculusly large amount of isk they have invested into buying them (me being one of them)
SignatureTemporarily Out Of Order |
dalman
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Blind Man if uber shield mods are touched, a lot of people will lose a rediculusly large amount of isk they have invested into buying them (me being one of them)
That would seem to be correct but it isn't.
Price changes on the highend pimp-mods are much more dependent on the supply, which is pretty much set as a fixed ammount due to the nature of the complexes. Changes to the complexes would affect the prices much more than changing the attributes on the modules. And I haven't seen CCP give a **** about that when messing with the plexes.
And my answer to the op is that I have started to think that: * whoever 'designed' gist boosters and the officer invulni-fields was drunk. * whoever decided to have pimped shield boost amps doesn't know the difference between multiplication and addition and hence didn't know he'd royally **** up gamebalance by doing so. ... and so far none has denied it.
And the pirate implants were designed pre-RMR, so they're imbalanced cause of that...
Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Saria Mysdrial
Amarr Research Associates
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:58:00 -
[27]
...so perhaps boosting armour tanks to a comparable level is better than nerfing shield tanks.
I do remember someone saying that shield tanks were supposed to be more cap-hungry than armour tanks, but clearly with the high-end mods, this is made moot. Maybe it needs to be retooled?
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Thoris Levithar
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dixon Also there are more shield skills and they have higher ranks.
Shield: 5x skills (rank 1,2,2,3,4) + 4 compensation skills. Armor: 2x skills (rank 1,2) + 4 compensation skills.
Just wanted to correct you on the armor tanking skills: there's actually three of them. Mechanic (rank 1, lvl 5 required for LAR II's), Repair Systems (rank 1, lvl 5 required for optimal dps repair amount), and Hull Upgrades (rank 2, lvl 5 required for t2 active and passive hardeners). With shield tanking skills you mostly require lvl 4 to fit tech2 equipment (only the XL Shield Booster II needs Shield Op 5). So you may have more skills for shield tanking, but you don't need them all at lvl 5 to have a tech2 tank.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.06 16:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Thoris Levithar
Originally by: Dixon Also there are more shield skills and they have higher ranks.
Shield: 5x skills (rank 1,2,2,3,4) + 4 compensation skills. Armor: 2x skills (rank 1,2) + 4 compensation skills.
Just wanted to correct you on the armor tanking skills: there's actually three of them. Mechanic (rank 1, lvl 5 required for LAR II's), Repair Systems (rank 1, lvl 5 required for optimal dps repair amount), and Hull Upgrades (rank 2, lvl 5 required for t2 active and passive hardeners). With shield tanking skills you mostly require lvl 4 to fit tech2 equipment (only the XL Shield Booster II needs Shield Op 5). So you may have more skills for shield tanking, but you don't need them all at lvl 5 to have a tech2 tank.
Right you are sir, I forgot about repair systems. But the fact remains that a dedicated shield tanker will need more SP than a dedicated armor tanker (shield operation + management to lvl5 requires the same amount of SP as mechanic, hull upgrades and repair systems to lvl5).
I actually use both and prefer armor tanks for pvp but shields for pve. I like to think they are different and balanced in their own way. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
000Hunter000
Gallente Dummy Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.06 16:59:00 -
[30]
Usually when my shieldtank is about to break i know it is time to vacate the scenery and also know i still have a slab of armor and some structure between me and the cruel vacuum of space.
Sadly this also makes the agony a little bit longer if ur unable to vacate the scenery when it does break hehehe Banner will be updated shortly |
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