|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13696
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 03:50:06 -
[1] - Quote
Maraner wrote:I
Go on a roam with a BS in your gang if your not just sat on a titan and see how it goes.
It goes just fine for me.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 04:26:01 -
[2] - Quote
So just to point out, the bulk of my Megathrons are faster than before the warp speed changes and all of them are perfectly capable of taking part in combat. Hitting cruiser warp speeds in a battleship is very easy and requires just one rig slot and a few implants. My more outlandish fit will fly as fast as an assault frigate and when in harpy fleet it leaves them all in the dust. Coupled with nano and you are getting into warp just as fast as cruisers too (I have no issues keeping up with frigates when aligning in fleets).
The warp speed changes are not just fine, they have added so much more fun for me.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 04:56:20 -
[3] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:The warp speed changes are not just fine, they have added so much more fun for me. It's a fair point, but just a casual observation: A Megathron (and in particular, ships with high numbers of low slots) are more geared towards being able to reap the benefits from Prototype Hyperspacial modules and Hyperspacial rigs than say ships that typically sport fewer slots, ie: Caldari.
My mission boat is a raven and (unsurprisingly) its got three t2 hyperspacials and a high grade implant set. It runs level 4s just as well as any normal raven but gets to save a lot of time in warping around
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 05:33:36 -
[4] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:My mission boat is a raven and (unsurprisingly) its got three t2 hyperspacials and a high grade implant set. It runs level 4s just as well as any normal raven but gets to save a lot of time in warping around I'm honestly not sure if the tradeoff in lost DPS is offset by the gain in faster mission travel. I guess it depends entirely on how many jumps are entailed per mission. If I could trade two high slots in my Golem for two lows, I'd be a really, really happy camper...
It's in gun boats that the big gains are. If you are blitzing missions then with most you will spend most of the time in warp with a BS.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 05:51:46 -
[5] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Even if they warped faster, they would still be useless on roams.
BC and BS rebalancing was a catastrophic failure.
That simply isnt true. My cynable mega for example will keep up with the cruisers while sporting ample tank and the full firepower of a blaster mega and the ability to apply it.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 06:21:51 -
[6] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:baltec1 wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:Even if they warped faster, they would still be useless on roams.
BC and BS rebalancing was a catastrophic failure. That simply isnt true. My cynable mega for example will keep up with the cruisers while sporting ample tank and the full firepower of a blaster mega and the ability to apply it. Rigs and Implants only? or are you willing to share this setup with us?
At work so not for a while. The fit is likely floating around the internet somewhere.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 06:33:22 -
[7] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:baltec1 wrote:James Baboli wrote:baltec1 wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:Even if they warped faster, they would still be useless on roams.
BC and BS rebalancing was a catastrophic failure. That simply isnt true. My cynable mega for example will keep up with the cruisers while sporting ample tank and the full firepower of a blaster mega and the ability to apply it. Rigs and Implants only? or are you willing to share this setup with us? At work so not for a while. The fit is likely floating around the internet somewhere. roger, will GIMGDS then, but it does not show up in your losses on battleclinic.
Im not sure I have ever lost one to be honest.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 08:37:34 -
[8] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:baltec1 wrote: Im not sure I have ever lost one to be honest.
Well, there goes the easy way to find it.
Off the top of my head its blasters, MWD, cap booster, 2x sheild tank mods (buffer), 3x damage mods, 2x nano rest tracking. rigs are 1x warp and 2x tank. Basic cruiser fit. Oh and a suitcase. Adapt to the fleets needs from there.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 09:42:28 -
[9] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:baltec1 wrote:...Off the top of my head its blasters, MWD, cap booster, 2x sheild tank mods (buffer), 3x damage mods, 2x nano rest tracking. rigs are 1x warp and 2x tank. Basic cruiser fit. Oh and a suitcase. Adapt to the fleets needs from there. I almost hate to brake it to you, but even if it escapes your mind, there are folks in New Eden that do not need some fleet to go on a roam. They do it for the same reason I like to do it, because it is hard. It is also very unforgiving and will go south 99% of the time but being able to make another players ship explode on your own is much more rewarding than waiting for someone to tell how to fly boat, press zee f1, win
That line of argument doest work on me. You may want to look up exactly why it is that the CFC megathron fleet got called baltec fleet. The above fit gets used in small to min sized roaming gangs, not strat ops.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 10:39:37 -
[10] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:baltec1 wrote:...That line of argument doest work on me. You may want to look up exactly why it is that the CFC megathron fleet got called baltec fleet. The above fit gets used in small to min sized roaming gangs, not strat ops. That wasn't the point. The point is that no battleship can handle even one of the frigates we have now and when I was little the sight of a battleship was enough to make people run in fear. Now it takes one frigate (with tons of ammo) to kill a battleship (that isnt a Vindicator). Does this look right to you? The point is that a battleship (that is not a Vindicator) that jumps into a 30 man frigate gang isn't really supposed to go down in flames without being able to murder at least 12 of them before it goes down. I am aware of the kitey-meta that is going on right now and that's all fine but I expect some level of thread from a battleship. Or we ask CCP to make a small change in the database to change the name of the shipclass - "to-be-ganked-by-frigate-boat-class" Which one would you prefer?
Id use a raven, phoon or a geddon. Rattle if you want to rip them apart like a wet paper bag.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 11:42:21 -
[11] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:baltec1 wrote: -snip-
Id use a raven, phoon or a geddon. Rattle if you want to rip them apart like a wet paper bag. The first three I can agree but would you go take out a Hyperion on a roam? Don't get me wrong, I love the Rattlesnake but taking one of these out on a roam and getting your 500 million ship get blown up by 25 Condors still doesn't feel right. Even if you manage to poke some of them. But back to the matter at hand, the shipclasses being the stepchildren of ships right now.
I own a hyperion, it is a good ship for small gangs for both shield and armour. As for the rattle, its one of the most deadly anti support ships in EVE. That damage bonus applies to every missile type.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 14:31:08 -
[12] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Thank you Baltec, saviour of lolsec for another example of what not to do in a thread that is not about you.
The thread is still about battlecruisers and battleships being not worth undocking.
Your inability to use them does not make them bad.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 16:04:28 -
[13] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I still think giving BS the ability to downsize weapons and retain bonuses across the board would do brilliant things for them. Let them decide if they want to be big fat destroyers creating no fly zones for frigates (at the cost of chipping the paint only of bigger hulls) if they so wish or fitting traditional big guns. Open them up to more flexibility please
This would render so many ships pointless.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 03:42:26 -
[14] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The issue is not Battleships being slow. That woudl be ok if they WERE POWERFUL ENOUGH to justify it.
THey lost half of their mobility and gained NOTHING in return. Battleships should ALL get some extra 25% EHP and some extra 20% DPS to be WORTH bringing to a fight.
Battleships nowadays are almost only used when they do not need to travel... i.e trough titan bridges. If they had to travel "by foot" they would never see light of combat. Agree but lets start with something to get them out of the hangars and into fleets that MOVE rather than just being bridged. If we think these ships are a bit rare now wait til phoebe lands
When phoebe lands we will be using battleships with logistic nano carriers. Personally I will be getting a dreadnought that will warp as fast as cruisers.
Battleships are not the problem its the pilots who for whatever reason that refuse to adapt.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13697
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 04:37:44 -
[15] - Quote
Maraner wrote:
Ummm no. I understand how the hyperspatial rigs work mkay, plus the ascendancy clones and the low slot mods. I just object to the nerf that this imposes upon the Battleship.
I have no prob if people want to AU nano up their BS's warp speed at the cost of tank / dps or the use of a slave clone, the problem is they shouldn't have to do that to keep up with everything else subcap.
Plus as pointed out by other people these ships have fallen off in their use significantly, perhaps this could be something that could be done up their use.
They have never been used much in small roaming gangs. Battleships are ships of the line, they are not built for chasing stuff down like cruisers and never have been. The only issue here is with the pilots not the ships. They are your typical EFT warriors who simply look at the numbers and say a ship is no good without spending any time flying them. Lets face it, there are few bigger fans of battleships than me, if there was an issue with battleships as a whole I would say something.
Battleship are fully able to terrorize the space lanes
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 06:16:40 -
[16] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Can't say I've seen anyone using a fit that has that sort of performance in low sec anywhere.
Yes I realize this must be my fault some how.
The fact is these ships are becoming rare, it's a combination of nerfs and buffs to other ships over a long time. I am simply asking that the AU speed be buffed to enable mixed fleets without the need to AU enhancing modules, rigs or implants.
If people want to fly around at 6 AU with that sort of fit that requires thats fine.
But at least have it at 3.0 so these ships can at least keep up without the significant loss of either tank or gank that it currently entails.
Thanks
Using one rig slot is not a massive sacrifice. You are not going to get cruiser warp speeds out of a battleship with no sacrifices at all.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 06:34:25 -
[17] - Quote
Craggio wrote:3.0 might be a bit much, but 2.5 Au warp would be sufficient. And it would get more mixed fleets out there.
It wont.
As said, battleships have always been rare in small gang roams and will continue to be rare no matter what changes are made.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 06:37:44 -
[18] - Quote
Maraner wrote:baltec1 wrote:Maraner wrote:Can't say I've seen anyone using a fit that has that sort of performance in low sec anywhere.
Yes I realize this must be my fault some how.
The fact is these ships are becoming rare, it's a combination of nerfs and buffs to other ships over a long time. I am simply asking that the AU speed be buffed to enable mixed fleets without the need to AU enhancing modules, rigs or implants.
If people want to fly around at 6 AU with that sort of fit that requires thats fine.
But at least have it at 3.0 so these ships can at least keep up without the significant loss of either tank or gank that it currently entails.
Thanks Using one rig slot is not a massive sacrifice. You are not going to get cruiser warp speeds out of a battleship with no sacrifices at all. Sorry disagree. The hyperspatial rigs just to up the hurt are a cpu drawback. the armor mega is a tight cow for CPU already without that. Plus it should have a damn trimark in there, although what good it is against a blap dred is uncertain.
You do not need trimarks to make a battleship work and I have no issues with CPU when using three t2 hyperspacials.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 07:06:18 -
[19] - Quote
Maraner wrote:[quote=baltec1]
Dude they used to go at 3.0
It can be done
They also used to be able to track frigates at any range and speed, have no diminishing returns on damage mods and could fit a dreadnoughts weapon. Battleships are not going to be matching cruiser warp speeds. Use the fitting options.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 07:24:04 -
[20] - Quote
Maraner wrote:
I understand that you disagree, you have made you point reasonably. Please 't really understand why you are against a buff of a ship that you seem to like to fly but as you wish.
For myself I like to fly megas with trimarks, please allow me to fit my ship the way I would like to and stay with my corpies.
Thanks
Im against it because it would imbalance the ship lineup. It doesnt matter if I would gain from it or not, balance comes before personal gain.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 08:01:31 -
[21] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:baltec1 wrote: They also used to be able to track frigates at any range and speed, have no diminishing returns on damage mods and could fit a dreadnoughts weapon. Battleships are not going to be matching cruiser warp speeds. Use the fitting options.
I agree with you about not increasing the warp speed, forcing compromises in fitting is how EVE should work. Now we have the option to make BSes warp fast enough for most purposes, which would be awesome, if it was actually worth the effort. You still end up in a situation where a cruiser is the superior choice. I hope you understand the difference between "being able to use a BS" and "BS is the optimal choice". So far you haven't presented any arguments why anyone should choose a Mega over say, an Ishtar for a small-medium mixed gang. You don't do more applied damage. You don't have more real tank. You lock stuff slower. You align slower. You move slower. You get jammed easier. Unlike you claim, people have adapted, adapted by not flying BCs and BSes at all. And unlike you claim, these shipclasses were indeed used in everything from PVE to solo, small gangs and blobs. (Combat) BCs used to be the bread and butter of New Eden, now they are all but extinct. And the reason for that are cruisers, from T1 to T3, which offer better choices for every situation. And it's not "wrong", cruisers are awesome and accessible, but CBCs need to be fixed to make them the best choice for even some situations.
The drake and cane were both nerfed for very good reasons. Your comparison between the ishtar and the mega is a very odd one given that both are made for very different tasks. That said if the ishtar is out damaging a blaster mega you are doing something very wrong.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 08:13:18 -
[22] - Quote
Maraner wrote:This thread was not about tracking to hit frigs.
It is about warp speed. It is not easy to argue that BS are in a good spot at the moment so I salute your dogged defense of a poor place for them.
You very very rarely see HACs or other ships with reasonable tank fit warp speed mods. Thats because they go at a reasonable lick, if a pilot wants to buff it to stupid speed they are well within their rights to do so but it's not nerfed into the ground from the stand point.
I am not asking for some OP **** here, I am asking for balance in an abused ship type that is rare as hell. If you want to fly around at 6.0 AU feel free, but don't expect the rest of us to fly around at 2.0 and be happy or feel that this is somehow balanced.
cheers
Actually there would be one BS that would be hitting 12au.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 08:30:25 -
[23] - Quote
Craggio wrote:I'd like to see the BS's up to 2.5 with the BC's. Could see more mixed fleets roaming, Not talking 100 man gangs, I'm talking 10-20 man mixed fleets roaming around looking for fights. You just don't see this any more. Granted, maybe Phoebe will fix some of it, but should be closer.
Then what happens to BC?
Simple fact here is that we already have a battleship that warps as fast as a cruiser and none of you are using it.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 09:02:07 -
[24] - Quote
Maraner wrote:baltec1 wrote:Craggio wrote:I'd like to see the BS's up to 2.5 with the BC's. Could see more mixed fleets roaming, Not talking 100 man gangs, I'm talking 10-20 man mixed fleets roaming around looking for fights. You just don't see this any more. Granted, maybe Phoebe will fix some of it, but should be closer. Then what happens to BC? Simple fact here is that we already have a battleship that warps as fast as a cruiser and none of you are using it. Dude you BS move via titan bridge, please let the rest of us that roam have the option without gimping the fit You clearly don't agree with what I'm saying, thats fine. There is no point showing that you can get a BS to warp 12 AU, so what. We can do that with all of the ships in the game. We are talking about the base values of the ships au speed without rigs and modules etc to change that. 2.0 is not enough.
I am quite happy to go roaming in my BS, I fully intend to be roaming around in enemy space come the changes to jumping mechanics. If you want cruiser warp speeds in a BS out of the box then why are you not using the one currently in game?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 11:04:49 -
[25] - Quote
afkalt wrote:To be fair whilst I agree with many of your posts baltec - I don't think it's entirely fair to assume the BS pilots will all have ascendancy implants and no-one else will.
To date nobody else does. I dont see many using them in the future either for the same reason only a handful use snakes.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13698
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 11:07:17 -
[26] - Quote
Icarus3 wrote:Maraner wrote:
I remember the days or RR battleships gangs fondly, they are no longer possible for a variety of reasons, I get that it's more fun to just assign your drones to someone else but please CCP consider allowing BS / BC gangs the option to at least keep up with everyone else without gutting their fits or clone set choices.
Thanks
I too remember the days of RR bs gangs. Smaller groups were able to use them to great effect against larger blobs. I would very much like to see roaming BS gangs again, but sadly I don't see this happening without changes to the warp speeds. +1 for Maraner.
People stopped using RR BS years before the warp speed changes.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 12:25:20 -
[27] - Quote
afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote:To be fair whilst I agree with many of your posts baltec - I don't think it's entirely fair to assume the BS pilots will all have ascendancy implants and no-one else will. To date nobody else does. I dont see many using them in the future either for the same reason only a handful use snakes. Perhaps if the low grade costs are ever sorted it'll be a thing. The point I was more making us that we need to assume equitable clones before we can fairly decide if speeding classes up presents a manifest problem.
To me just the ability to do it is enough of a reason to worry. On top of that you also would have the blowback from cruiser pilots who would demand a speed boost so that they are not as slow as a ship two classes above them. Either battleships are slower than cruisers or you just scrap the entire thing.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 13:11:43 -
[28] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
YET rail tengus are on par if not superior to battleships as ships of the line. And warp faster.
Battleships are not worth right now the TIME to travel.
And you must remember Battleships are not only for your large fleets. THey need to be usable as well on more moderate fleets. Like 10-20 people. There is no reason to bring a battleships instead of a T3 or pirate cruiser.
T3 are in line for a savage nerf.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 15:08:25 -
[29] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
YET rail tengus are on par if not superior to battleships as ships of the line. And warp faster.
Battleships are not worth right now the TIME to travel.
And you must remember Battleships are not only for your large fleets. THey need to be usable as well on more moderate fleets. Like 10-20 people. There is no reason to bring a battleships instead of a T3 or pirate cruiser.
T3 are in line for a savage nerf. I only believe.. when I see it.
Its in the balance chart. They are slated to land between t1 and t2 cruisers.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 15:17:48 -
[30] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:I'm pretty sure BC and BS don't see much small gang anction more because people think they don't bring enough positive to counter the drawback of being in a BS. You do get something out of it but I think people see it as not enough. Exaclty my point. In 0.0 fleets their main drawback is denied by titan bridging, and they present one important bonus of being cheap to replace by replacement programs when insured. But on smaller scale combat, in low sec and high sec wars they are HORRIBLE. They will have to jump to get where they are needed and usually the profile of ships in these scenarios is completely different, and most ships have fittings costing half a bil or more (therefore insurance of the ship is irrelevant). Battleships are not used because they are BATTLESHIPS, when they are used, they are because they are cannon fooder that have enough ehp to be kept alive and they are cheap to replace. That was nto supposed to be the reason to use a battleship. If you need to wait a few more minutes for a battleship to arrive or bring a T2 or pirate cruiser .. you will not select the battleship (with the exception of the armageddon, Vindicator and Bhalghorn that fulfill specific roles), because they do not bring enough to justify the time. Give battleship sized local repair/boost more oomph (will impact small scale fights but not 0.0 blobs), give them a bit more cap and EHP, give them easier fittings, and give them a tad more dps ( any MEDIUM blaster boat can outdps several battleships.. that is not healthy)
You say this after you see a torp golen wipe out entire fleets...
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 17:00:32 -
[31] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:
To be fair the Bastionaddes video (that I think you're referring to) was done by an experience pilot, using deadspace and faction gear, implants, and boosts, all while the players he was fighting were using the exact tactic that a blap golem will excel against. Downgrade the fit to t2, no implants or boosts, and start fighting against alpha doctrines or a gang carrying neuts, range, remote reps etc and the outcome will be dramatically different. You couldn't ask for more perfect scenarios in some of those fights.
Links, implants, booster alts, drugs, deadspace and factions gear and the perfect combat scenario against inexperienced pilots ignorant of a ships weaknesses give false impressions about what a ship is really capable of.
And?
He killed fleets and these people are saying battleships will die to a handful of the exact same type of people while they are backed up with a small gang. Do you honestly think a torp or cruise raven cant manage to fight? Or that a domi isn't going to cause a good deal of hurt? The problem here isn't with the warp speeds or with the hulls its with the people. Its their attude and their lack of ingenuity. They want to be good without putting in the time and effort into learning how to fly these ships and blame the hulls. Frankly they come across as the people you see being slaughtered in that video.
I'm seeing this problem in a lot of players in every area of EVE and in most other games.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 17:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:
I just don't think that most of the games battleships have enough of what makes a battleship a battleship to make them worthwhile.
This is the issue with battleships. People get told from a young age that battleships are no good, they then run around thinking this is the truth and then pass it on to the next batch. People think a great many things about this game that are wrong. Great example is the humble skiff. Big tank, good firepower and it often gets used as a bait ship for frigates and destroyers that it then turn inside out. Yet the vast bulk of miners ignore it and continue to die in droves while using untanked retrievers and macks.
The myth that battleships are no good in small gangs started the moment CCP added tracking to the game and ended the age of the heatsink geddon. No matter what you do (short of making battleships wildly overpowered) people will continue to believe this myth and will continue to demand buffs to battleships to make them more like their cruiser.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 18:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
aa sure.. because all the people that excel in small scale PV use battleships a lot right? And NO your roamign fleets are NOT small scale PVP. Small scale is 3-5 guys.
Rook and Kings use them heavily.
Kagura Nikon wrote: We usually laugh when people bring battleships on these numbers agaisnt our cruisers, unless these cruisers are Bhalghorn and armageddon ( that alongside the vindicator and maybe the domi are the only ones relevant in smaller scale combat).
A fine example of what I was just talking about
Kagura Nikon wrote: Blaster boats can have success against stupid people, but just because they are the ONLY battleships with SERIOUSLY more firepower than the cruiser sized hulls. But agaisnt peopel that have half a brain, megas are irrelevant in modern small scale combat against ships of smaller size.
This kinda shows you lack of experience with large blasters, they have no issue with hitting cruisers.
Kagura Nikon wrote: I do not remember when was last time a mega even hurt any of our ships.
Then you haven't met a good megathron pilot.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 18:47:28 -
[34] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
A brutix outdps The tempest and the maesltrom and possibly others. And when you start to fire at real targets that MOVE and have signature under 500m.. then the effective DPS of the battleships drop even more.
Now look at how far those ships can project that firepower.
Kagura Nikon wrote: Of course blaster battleships brign the hurt.. but any Cruiser sidez pilot must be stupid or have really bad luck or be BLOBED by tackled to get caught by a close range battleship.
My BS can hit 1500m/s. A lot of cruisers must come in range of my weapons to attack me. A small gang will have targets tackled. Chances are you will be in range
Kagura Nikon wrote: The good battleships are the oens that use DRONES as primary damage, and fill all the high slots with neuts (heavy neuts are the ONLY powerful thing battleships really have).
Aside from blasters, torps, cruise missiles, RHML, autocannons, arty, pulse lasers, large smartbombs....
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 18:51:04 -
[35] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rokhs and kings are great, but they are NOT exactly mainstream. And even them admit that theat way of fighting isnot able to keep us and they shifted their tactics a lot, to thing like pipebombing.
That comment was with dealing with the blob, not people like you.
Kagura Nikon wrote: And lol at saying WE lack experience at small scale warfare.. just lol. Liek when peopel help my argument by making themselves look stupid. Yes Blasters have a HORRIBLE time hittign cruisers.. BECAUSE THE CRUISERS WILL NOT GET CLOSE! Your answer shows your lack of experience with PILTOS THAT HAVE A BRAIN and do not need a FC!
I track fighter and destroyers. You honestly think a cruiser is too small to hit?
Kagura Nikon wrote: I will NEVER get under 20k from a blaster ship , and the first thing we will do is get rid of the rapiers and lokis that are the ONLY ships able to make a blaster mega become relevant.
Blasters have a 40km range.
Kagura Nikon wrote: I know after so much time in the swarm you start to forget the concept that a group of players that can eachone think by itself are able to avoid these simplistic pitfalls.
Remember the bit I said about myths? Goons only working in blobs is one of them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 19:40:46 -
[36] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Then you haven't met a good megathron pilot.
Do you think more people would fly them if they were to cost less? Talking about battleship in general, not only megathron of course. Following that, would more good BS pilots potentially emerge if the ship became more popular?
Unlikely. People will spend battleship money on t3 and pirate/faction cruisers right now. Its a mental issue rather than isk.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 20:16:02 -
[37] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.
Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.
Best part of this is that I am putting together a dreadnought capable of roaming with a cruiser gang while he laments over having to use a single rig slot to boost his battleships warp speed.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 20:25:25 -
[38] - Quote
Maraner wrote:baltec1 wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.
Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito. Best part of this is that I am putting together a dreadnought capable of roaming with a cruiser gang while he laments over having to use a single rig slot to boost his battleships warp speed. Yes I do. OFC comparing dreds and BS is completely relevant. They have so many simularities what with both being able to go into seige and jump etc. This thread is about enabling BS to keep up with other sub cap ships whitout having to compromise their fits. It is also discussing the relative rarity of them.
And I just pointed out that dreadnoughts can keep up with cruisers and remain viable come November.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 20:26:56 -
[39] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Then you haven't met a good megathron pilot.
Do you think more people would fly them if they were to cost less? Talking about battleship in general, not only megathron of course. Following that, would more good BS pilots potentially emerge if the ship became more popular? Unlikely. People will spend battleship money on t3 and pirate/faction cruisers right now. Its a mental issue rather than isk. The learning process of cruiser basic flight is learned in 30 million fitted ships or something around that. The learning process of battleship flight start with a naked hull around 200 millions. This is why I ask if you think the process might be less prevalent. Learning to be good in any ships will obviously involve losses. Are people willing to write off 200 mill hulls + fitting cost into a learning experiment a part of the community even consider (rightfully or not) to be a waste?
That's up to them. For me its worth every penny and has provided me with 4 years of content.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 20:37:32 -
[40] - Quote
Maraner wrote:
So?
This is about BS not Dred. why dont you talk about titans as well.
The point that I have made is that BS and to a lesser extend BC are REQUIRED to fit warp speed mods, no one else is. Fit your dreds as you wish, my arguement is about the base line of BS being way too low and the sacrifices made to move them quick greatly diminshes their role.
Why the arguement? are you worried about change?
When it messes up ship balance yes I am.
As for why the dread, it has even lower warp speeds and much longer align times than a battleship, yet I am getting it to do exactly what you want out of a battleship. If I can get a dreadnought to do this then you can get a battleship to do it too.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 20:52:04 -
[41] - Quote
Maraner wrote:
I realise as I have stated multiple times that I can get a BS to already align and warp very quickly. Can we all just move on from that point. I get it ok.
My problem is that it is at the cost of trimarks or slave clones.
The baseline of 2.0 AU is too low.
PLEASE dont tell me that I can fit a BS to make it warp quick, or that you are able to do a ludicrous fit on your dred to get it to move along with cruisers, gratz on that btw.
My argument is that the BS / BC is the only subcap (which is what we are taking about ) that NEEDS to fit them to keep up with the other commonly seen sub cap fleet formations that are out there.
I also lol'd a bit when you talked about balance with dreds keeping up with cruisers in the same sentence. You can clearly mess with the 'balance' all you want already, or do I need to tell you that you can make your dred keep up with cruisers.... did you know that btw?
Thanks
You don't have to you just want to, Battleships do not have to go 3au to be viable.The warp speed changes have had no impact on the number of battleships used in lowsec, the number has been low for a decade.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 20:53:17 -
[42] - Quote
Maraner wrote:James Baboli wrote:Maraner wrote: Feel free to go off and start a thread of the other problems with BS.
THIS thread is about trying to roll back an unwanted nerf
And if/when I have the time to actually do a reasonable job of crunching sufficient numbers of possible fits, in possible outcomes for tweaks to these ships, which are in a usable spot, but not liked by several styles of player, I will. This thread is about doing things that break several intended mechanisms for game balance as proposed, and which does not address the issues which underpin the problems you have with them directly, i.e. that you think it is required to run slaves to be effective, and/or that you refuse to fit warp speed mods and then depot-ditch them when you are ready to engage, or shuffle them into a carrier/orca/rorqual/station/pos/nestor etc. It is required. Apparently other BS can go at 3.0 already. Did you know that? Or are they unbalanced as well. Baltec there can make a dred keep up with a cruiser fleet and you are attacking me for wanting a lift of the AU to enable BS to keep up with BC gangs and other sub cap types.
Difference is that I am making fitting choices while you want those speeds for no sacrifices at all.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 21:19:37 -
[43] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Maraner wrote:My problem is that it is at the cost of trimarks or slave clones. Now we finally get to the true issue. You're upset that you are forced to make a choice between tank and speed. Pretty sure this is by design, as you see similar choices throughout EvE. Range or DPS, tank or mining yield, and so on. Also, your complaint that no other hulls need speed rigs to keep up with smaller ships, tell that to cruisers trying to catch frigates. Oh and cruisers dont need to fit warp speed rigs to go on 30 - 40 jump roams. Because they go quick. Not talking about running down frigs on grid, because a BS is just perfect for that role. I am talking about the warp speed and how long it takes to move a BS gang without unacceptable compromise to their tank. The AU warp speed nerf left these ships in the dust. Go look for a BS gang thats not on a titan bridge and take a screen shot.
Using one of your fits you would have 111k ehp if you fitted to go 3au. Put on that trimark and you get 122k.
This is an unacceptable compromise?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 21:58:04 -
[44] - Quote
Maraner wrote:baltec1 wrote:Maraner wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Maraner wrote:My problem is that it is at the cost of trimarks or slave clones. Now we finally get to the true issue. You're upset that you are forced to make a choice between tank and speed. Pretty sure this is by design, as you see similar choices throughout EvE. Range or DPS, tank or mining yield, and so on. Also, your complaint that no other hulls need speed rigs to keep up with smaller ships, tell that to cruisers trying to catch frigates. Oh and cruisers dont need to fit warp speed rigs to go on 30 - 40 jump roams. Because they go quick. Not talking about running down frigs on grid, because a BS is just perfect for that role. I am talking about the warp speed and how long it takes to move a BS gang without unacceptable compromise to their tank. The AU warp speed nerf left these ships in the dust. Go look for a BS gang thats not on a titan bridge and take a screen shot. Using one of your fits you would have 111k ehp if you fitted to go 3au. Put on that trimark and you get 122k. This is an unacceptable compromise? Yes it is. A hyperspatial rigs draw back is CPU, the mega has to give up a trimark and gimp it's fit in other ways to still be left behind. That or fit an ascendancy clone and sacrifice even more with loss of hardwirings or slave clone. No other class of ships in the game has to fit rigs to move around for roam fleets. This was a class specific nerf to BS and BCs, it effects very few ships in current meta with HACs being left completely unbothered either way with a speed buff on no need to every use AU modifying items. This change has had it's part to play in the now nearly vanishingly rare low sec BS gang. My suggestion for a modest increase in AU is to enable these ships to fly in mixed gangs over reasonable roam distances and not get left behind. Not asking for some sort of game breaking bullshit like a dred that moves around with cruiser gangs
Ok firstly, that loss in EHP makes damn near no difference. Second, you do not need to move at 3au in gangs. And lastly, battleships were just as rare in low sec gangs before the warp speed changes as after.
This is simply a case of you wanting something without having to make fitting choices.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 22:24:57 -
[45] - Quote
Maraner wrote:
We liked to use mixed ship type gangs, they used to roam large areas of low sec. These days BS just sit on a titan.
People have been saying exactly what you are for the last 11 years. If you refuse to adapt then just get a cruiser, CCP are not rolling back the speed changes.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 07:21:07 -
[46] - Quote
Lil' Angel Gallifreyan wrote:James you're just being stubborn, and fight as hard as you want for the status quo to remain so, even the slightly above 3.0au/s the High Grades get you (AGAIN: Ignoring the price point of this set in particular), with the current state of the smaller subcaps, and the slower align and into warp speed of Battleships, the results to Low-Sec are tangible. No amount of you arguing for it to stay the same will change this. Low-Sec Battleships are, tangibly, demonstrably, rarer than they have ever been.
I will not assume what you spend your time doing in-game, maybe what you do is just forum-warrioring for all I know. Or maybe you are a pilot the same as I and other Low-Seccers ITT and just lucky with all these Battleships fine roaming around that you personally run into. But speaking as someone who does live in Low-Sec, and with the experience of roaming around in Battleships and varied fleets, is why I argue the points that I do.
And instead of shouting down any discussion, clinging to the thought that everything is okay, I am encouraging CCP and CSM to look over the analytical tools we know that they have, to make the informed balance pass to make this class of ship not left hurting and all but unviable in this area of space many choose to live in.
They are not unviable though. You say they align too slow yet I am out running frigate fleets, you say its too expensive yet I spend less than a slave set that this guy seems unable to do without to get it to assault frigate speeds. Every time I point out a battleship that does well the only reply is that its an exception, so by now in theis thread half the battleships are "exceptional".
Simple fact here is the OP wants his battleship to act like a cruiser, the same as every other whine thread about solo/small gang battleships over the last 11 years.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 08:07:54 -
[47] - Quote
Maraner wrote:
No OP does not want his BS to act like a cruiser. I want it to act like the BS it did for the first 9 years I played the game.
When you know there were actually BS in space
Not just sat on a bridge, at the moment to make them warp at 3.0 - NOTHING MORE takes a rig and a low slot module at least - the warp speed changes positively effected almost every other ship class in the game, even the freighters move faster now as they have low slots to take the warp faster mods and can use the clone sets.
Not the BS and the BC though. nerfed into the ground. Baltec1, why so against it, are you worried people will fly BS fleets into your last region?
So freighters got buffed because they can use mods to warp faster but battleships got nerfed because they can use rigs, mods and implants to move faster...
You are not going to get to warp as fast as ships two classes below you right out of the box, it breaks the balance btween the ship classes.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13699
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 11:38:26 -
[48] - Quote
Lil' Angel Gallifreyan wrote:No matter how much protestors squawk anecdotally that it's viable, the statistics of Battleship usage are evidence to the contrary, for reasons already mentioned in this thread.
Feel free to post these statistics that show battleships have at any point been anything but rare in small gang roaming in the past decade.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13703
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 16:15:59 -
[49] - Quote
Lil' Angel Gallifreyan wrote:If you are reading and understanding, you know I am referencing the analytics that only CSM and CCP have access to pertaining to Battleship usage in Low-Sec that I am encouraging them to look over for an informed balance pass, and not just what Battleship pilots like myself, or you, might suggest.
You have your anecdotes and ideas, and I have mine, only you want to shut down any discussion to having Devs revisit Battleship Warp speed, and I want them to revisit and not ignore this situation.
I shoot down bad ideas. Bumping up battleship warp speeds to ship classes below them invalidates the entire reason for the changes.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13706
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 19:34:45 -
[50] - Quote
Lil' Angel Gallifreyan wrote:We know CCP tracks gate jumps, we know they track of which ships and in which space, and we know CSM has access to this info. Stats like this have been mentioned by CCP Rise, and CCP Leeloo has helped the CSM make better informed arguments by giving them access to this data.
This is what I want them to look at to make an informed balance pass because I hold that the Battleship base warp speed is too slow and discourages their use in Low-Sec for reasons already given in this thread. I mention these stats and analytics often because I don't want this situation ignored and drowned out by those who've already made their points.
You spam the thread not wanting the changes to be revisited, even though legitimate points have been argued. It would not invalidate any changes. They would still move much slower than pre-Rubicon and a change back to 3.0au/s is not wanted.
What is wanted and suggested is a more reasonable starting point of base warp speed for sub-capital roaming that can from then be augmented with implants or hyperspatials similarly to now. You have argued with your anecdotal experience in null that its fine, and I with mine in Low-Sec that the use of Battleships in favor of a meta for smaller subcaps is not.
And that a buff to the warp-speed would encourage these ships usage, and to have a more diverse and fun Low-Sec where players can be encouraged to use this class of ship more often without unreasonable sacrifices to their fittings and time spent in warp that compounds over the length of a roam.
It wont happen.
There are just as many battleships being used now as before the changes to warp speed. In the 4 years I have been flying more or less exclusively battleships people have been throwing around the exact same threads about how nobody uses battleships in small gangs.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
|
|
|
|