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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8377
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 15:32:00 -
[331] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'll be honest, i don't see how occupancy sov really changes anything with respect to the size of things.
throw lots of warm bodies at an area of sov = impossible to take it. unless you cap the amount an index can change per time period.... in which case, just stack enough people to cap it daily and you end up with a boring stalemate (which is the whole issue at the moment) or an inevitable slide of the index in one direction that you can't challenge.
i'll be honest; i don't get it. some one explain it to me. The index would be linked to activity in a system like mining, ratting, kills or some other industry metric. It could be grown over a period of time. This in turn would affect how easy it is for them to defend and how hard it would be for opponents to take. You could directly link it to structure EHP or timers for instance. This method would mean a dead system, with no activity would be very easy to conquer and a used system, with plenty of activity across the spectrum would be difficult to take.
The problem I have with this is the same problem i had when we discussed Dominon Sov all those year ago (and when CSm types used to talk "farms and fields".
The people doing the talking Are NOT PVE types. Big alliance/coalition leaders (and hell, CCP itself) in my experience tend to be PVP or heavy 'industry' types that don't know jack about PVE player sensibilities. This in and of itself if not a problem...until you try to design a SOV system around the behaviors of people you don't understand.
'Occupancy SOV' relies on people (PVE/ratting/mining players) who are notorious for not liking to lose ships having to PVE in congested systems where the local list is so long that you can't see neutral come in till it's too late and where awoxxing will be as easy as warping to anom or 'mission beacon'. These allaince leaders thinkg 'carebears' or going to form defense fleets to protect themselves. They must not know any carebears.
Or it has to rely on alliance PVPrs who don't like PVE in the 1st place and who fund their activites with plex or passive high/low sec stuff.
Under an 'occupancy sov' system , you'll have the same situation you had when CCP nerfed the system upgrades scheme: instead of more peole in null and more ships exploding, you'll have more people in high sec running missions and incursions, or flying bombers in FW, or bltizing lvl 5s with carriers in low sec, all of which are safer than ratting in a congested system and none of which make you fleet up with people (except incursions).
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
2131
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 15:33:00 -
[332] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
until you throw x+1 warm bodies at the system, and it becomes impossible to take, thus keeping us in the situation of having large coalitions except now you have to put them all under 1 alliance banner. instead of informal coalition banners.
He gets it.
Don't worry, I think the goons will realizes it before the end.
For many years their standard reply to everything regarding fighting the blob was "sorry I have more friends than you," and even that is now changing. They'll get there, eventually... |
Samahiel Noban
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
0
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:33:00 -
[333] - Quote
If Mordus Angels are crying it MUST be a good idea. I support this product and or service. |
Eyrun Mangeiri
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
24
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:33:00 -
[334] - Quote
Heavypredator Singh wrote: I don't need to make any changes - ccp needs to do it. Your proposal is not fixing anything - it is just attempt to keep Your power. Everyone see this and it will fail or not - depends if ccp is stupid enough to buy that crap.
It is the same as I would propose: my carrier should be 200 times stronger because goons throw 200 carriers at me. Do it ccp do it - this is a good idea...
This proposal is signed by ppl who don't think or are benefited by it. No small aliance is stupid enough to want this.
So, what is your idea that would not benefit anyone who knows how to play the SOV game? Or would you just keep things the way they are, so that in a few years goons quit EVE and play something else and you can claim victory over the empty husk of EVE that is left, because no one wants to play it anymore? I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn they will be gone - whispering their hidden song. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
2131
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 15:36:00 -
[335] - Quote
Samahiel Noban wrote:If Mordus Angels are crying it MUST be a good idea. I support this product and or service. Grrrr Mordus Angels. |
Heavypredator Singh
Dedicated Individuals Conditioned to Kill Mordus Angels
20
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:41:00 -
[336] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Heavypredator Singh wrote:Yep Im all for not reimbursing anyone for power projection nerfs by buffing income from systems. If they fold the better for everyone.
npc stations as power projection buff - should never happen. agreed, moa would be better off if we removed npc pure blind
Yea - we are deployed to lowsec because 5z and x7 are so good to be in. |
Xavi Bastanold
Parallax Shift The Periphery
2
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:42:00 -
[337] - Quote
This deal posed by the existing coalitions is interesting. While the proposal appeared genuine, it also seemed flawed. I do like the bit about more NPC-null presence in all the regions, but the idea of occupancy felt like it was coming from the wrong angle. The reason was that while CCP could create a mechanic for ownership to be contingent upon a requisite number of players being present in that system for x amount of hours a day(or something along those general lines), that doesn't address the imbalance of power that would continue to exist between the null coalitions and anyone optimistic enough to settle near their borders. It seemed pretty obvious to me that what would unfold was a transformation from renter corporations to 'serf' corporations.
For example, a corporation/alliance sets out to settle in a null system. Maybe they had to compete with another rival organization to get it. Now, say this system is a mere two jumps away from a CFC system. What's to stop CFC from visiting that system to pick up a monthly 'protection' fee? Nothing. It would be almost feudal. And, that's when it hit. Feudal.
See, right now, nullsec is very tribal. You're either part of the warband or you're not. Organization along these lines has gone to extremes with a cold war stagnation in place, but it's still very tribal. Moving to a feudal system would be an evolution of the current null culture. It would create more inter-dependency between the haves and have-nots.
At first, this inter-dependency would be in the coalitions' favor as they would possess the deepest pockets and most members. In time, however, would this persist? I don't think it will. At some point those various 'serf' corporations/alliances are going to develop their own power base and in turn, their own coalitions. The main coalitions will have to decide what to do at that point. Either destroy a 'rebellious' system/s and all the revenue that came from that, or find a means of compromising. Destroy the rebels and you run the risk of weakening yourself as well. Compromise and become more powerful but also relinquish more control.
It's an interesting idea and may actually work.
Good hunting, Xavi |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
2131
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 15:42:00 -
[338] - Quote
Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:
Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other? |
Regatto
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
2
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:45:00 -
[339] - Quote
Once this stops being exchange of arguments between moa and gsf, you could take in consideration that density isn't problem in null sec(number of anomalies is fine). Stagnation comes from boring and slow Sov capturing mechanics. More havens in system wont change absolutly anything |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
45
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:50:00 -
[340] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:umnikar wrote:baltec1 wrote:Caerbanog Walace wrote: Here I must disagree. This will lead to massive staging points and to the desertification of nullsec.
Thats the point. We want to lose 70-80% of the space we hold and to make it possible to host your thousands of players in a small amount of systems. This frees up all of the abandoned space we currently own to others to enter the sov game. ...and then takin rent from them also? Wait, are you saying there's not enough space for all the players? There is plenty of room out here, most of null is all but abandoned. We also would not be taking rent off these new alliances as we wouldn't own their space.
All good then. I trust goons to not take my new established sov...
Seriously. You must have some information I don't have, else all this makes no sense. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13401
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:54:00 -
[341] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other?
Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Janeos
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:54:00 -
[342] - Quote
To take it, under the proposed system, we'd have to LIVE IN IT. Currently, we own half the galaxy, but only utilize the tiniest fraction of it. |
Dave Stark
7005
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Posted - 2014.09.29 15:57:00 -
[343] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
until you throw x+1 warm bodies at the system, and it becomes impossible to take, thus keeping us in the situation of having large coalitions except now you have to put them all under 1 alliance banner. instead of informal coalition banners.
You could only hold that which you use, at least 80% of our space would be impossible to hold onto.
but that's the point, you don't need to use it until some one contests it... then dogpile in to the system.
unless i'm missing something. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13402
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:00:00 -
[344] - Quote
umnikar wrote:
All good then. I trust goons to not take my new established sov...
Seriously. You must have some information I don't have, else all this makes no sense.
Occupancy sov changes several things.
First it makes it impossible for one power to own half of null.
Second it makes needing large fleets of several thousand redundant. The reason we use the massive fleets of today is because of the need to grind through huge amounts of EHP and defend against said huge fleets. This need goes away the second you get rid of the EHP grinds.
Lastly, Coalitions themselves would no longer be required to survive. It wont mean that they disband instantly but over time the rifts would get large enough that they will simply fall apart. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13402
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:02:00 -
[345] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
until you throw x+1 warm bodies at the system, and it becomes impossible to take, thus keeping us in the situation of having large coalitions except now you have to put them all under 1 alliance banner. instead of informal coalition banners.
You could only hold that which you use, at least 80% of our space would be impossible to hold onto. but that's the point, you don't need to use it until some one contests it... then dogpile in to the system. unless i'm missing something.
If we don't use it then it will simply drop to become unoccupied space. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
2132
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:02:00 -
[346] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other? Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null. Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel.
So the same three choices will be present after your changs: (1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars (2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC (3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve.
That's totally not stagnation. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
847
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:04:00 -
[347] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other? Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null. Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel. So the same three choices will be present after your changs:(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars (2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC (3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. That's totally not stagnation. hero is getting farmed mercilessly because it is literally the only contested region in the game |
Dave Stark
7005
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:05:00 -
[348] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
until you throw x+1 warm bodies at the system, and it becomes impossible to take, thus keeping us in the situation of having large coalitions except now you have to put them all under 1 alliance banner. instead of informal coalition banners.
You could only hold that which you use, at least 80% of our space would be impossible to hold onto. but that's the point, you don't need to use it until some one contests it... then dogpile in to the system. unless i'm missing something. If we don't use it then it will simply drop to become unoccupied space.
so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov.... |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13402
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:06:00 -
[349] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other? Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null. Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel. So the same three choices will be present after your changes:(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars (2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC (3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. That's totally not stagnation.
Feel free to come take CFC sov if you feel any can enter null under the current mechanics. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arkon Olacar
Bearded BattleBears Brave Collective
391
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:08:00 -
[350] - Quote
Regatto wrote:Once this stops being exchange of arguments between moa and gsf, you could take in consideration that density isn't problem in null sec(number of anomalies is fine). Stagnation comes from boring and slow Sov capturing mechanics. More havens in system wont change absolutly anything Except that currently 80% of systems are worthless crap that no one uses. As a result, in order to support a large number of players regions upon regions are required. Make that 80% worth using and alliances will naturally contract the area of space that is actually used. Throw in occupancy based sov, and you get entire regions that no one is using, regions that are **** easy for someone to take for themselves.
The two are inherantly linked; just changing one will not fix anything. Warping to zero |
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Heavypredator Singh
Dedicated Individuals Conditioned to Kill Mordus Angels
20
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Posted - 2014.09.29 16:10:00 -
[351] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other? Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null. Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel. So the same three choices will be present after your changes:(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars (2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC (3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. That's totally not stagnation. Feel free to come take CFC sov if you feel any can enter null under the current mechanics.
You just need 5000 ppl being in 1 system for few days - would be funny to watch ppl racing to login after downtime to the system :D Everyone knows the server limits - put enough ppl in and You win. But where do I buy 5000 slav... err ppl - need to talk to amarr empire. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13403
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:11:00 -
[352] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov....
It would take an alliance or large corp to hold that space. It just simply will not be possible for us to hold all of that space. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4285
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:12:00 -
[353] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Occupancy sov changes several things.
First it makes it impossible for one power to own half of null.
Second it makes needing large fleets of several thousand redundant. The reason we use the massive fleets of today is because of the need to grind through huge amounts of EHP and defend against said huge fleets. This need goes away the second you get rid of the EHP grinds.
Lastly, Coalitions themselves would no longer be required to survive. It wont mean that they disband instantly but over time the rifts would get large enough that they will simply fall apart. How does that make sense?
Sure, it would be very difficult (though not impossible) for a coalition to own half of null, however it would be trivial to own key systems and crush anyone that tried to move into one of the empty gaps.
And while there would be less structure grind, there would still be POS grinds and POCO grinds, and most importantly the "Hellcamp your system until it becomes ours trololol", so there would be no benefit to splitting up the coalitions. Larger groups forming up to crush other larger groups will always be a problem, because "anything you can do, two can do better". The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1262
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:12:00 -
[354] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
until you throw x+1 warm bodies at the system, and it becomes impossible to take, thus keeping us in the situation of having large coalitions except now you have to put them all under 1 alliance banner. instead of informal coalition banners.
You could only hold that which you use, at least 80% of our space would be impossible to hold onto. but that's the point, you don't need to use it until some one contests it... then dogpile in to the system. unless i'm missing something.
Dogpiling one system would mean the others are wide open as long as the index decays fast enough. |
Dave Stark
7005
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:14:00 -
[355] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov....
It would take an alliance or large corp to hold that space. It just simply will not be possible for us to hold all of that space.
lol. yes it would. if a small entity can hold a system, a large entity can hold multiple systems just as easily.
as i said, if the minimum amount is easily obtainable for small entities you can do the "minimum" several times over to hold space you still won't use regularly. those systems will also always be tottering on the almost vulnerable side of things and essentially be a safari park much like people treat provi currently. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1262
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:15:00 -
[356] - Quote
Heavypredator Singh wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other? Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null. Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel. So the same three choices will be present after your changes:(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars (2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC (3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. That's totally not stagnation. Feel free to come take CFC sov if you feel any can enter null under the current mechanics. You just need 5000 ppl being in 1 system for few days - would be funny to watch ppl racing to login after downtime to the system :D Everyone knows the server limits - put enough ppl in and You win. But where do I buy 5000 slav... err ppl - need to talk to amarr empire.
Go ahead and PLEX 5k account to hold a system while they actaully use the space in other systems and effectively only need 100 active players per systems or so...
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8379
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:16:00 -
[357] - Quote
Just so people know where we started here. People forget the past, forget that we've made these mistakes in thinking before. So, have a look:
http://www.eveonline.com/expansions/dominion/
Quote:Will your ambitious new Alliance rise up to the challenge and stake their claim, evolving territory to suit it's needs? Will your established empire hold fast against the fleets that press at your borders, hungry for the wealth you protect? Will you call old friends to your side and convince them to join you once more in battle? Or are you the clever entrepreneur who sits clear of the danger and fuels the war from the periphery?
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/sovereignty-breaking-the-chains?_ga=1.246131140.1143573604.1412006868
Quote:Sovereignty will no longer be tied directly to starbases.
This decision was an obvious one, as there is no one thing that causes more consternation amongst players than the seemingly endless task of shooting towers. Once the choice to do this was made, we then went ahead and pretty much scrapped the entire current system and started to build a new one from the ground up. Literally years of forum posts, player experience and feedback from the CSM contributed to what was a long, arduous process. What has emerged is a much leaner and infinitely more expandable system which we can continually evolve over time.
Reading this thread makes me want to watch Battlestar Galactica again, because this has all happened before, and it will happen again...
Edit: this was the funny part:
Quote:I want to blow *%#$ up!
No matter what happens, there will always be important things to shoot. The key is finding a balance between allowing smaller gangs of raiders to disrupt the day to day operations of your space against requiring massive battleship and capital fleets to actually remove you from the same space. Conquest of space in Dominion will differ greatly from what exists currently, as will the ability of roaming gangs to cause an GÇÿAFK Empire' no end of frustration. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9935
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:18:00 -
[358] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Reading this thread makes me want to watch Battlestar Galactica again, because this has all happened before, and it will happen again...
So say we all. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13404
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:19:00 -
[359] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov....
It would take an alliance or large corp to hold that space. It just simply will not be possible for us to hold all of that space. lol. yes it would. if a small entity can hold a system, a large entity can hold multiple systems just as easily. as i said, if the minimum amount is easily obtainable for small entities you can do the "minimum" several times over to hold space you still won't use regularly. those systems will also always be tottering on the almost vulnerable side of things and essentially be a safari park much like people treat provi currently.
Would you rather we keep the current zombie empires?
Nobody said living in null should be easy. That said it would simply be impossible to dogpile even a fraction of null systems outside of Dek. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8379
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 16:20:00 -
[360] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Reading this thread makes me want to watch Battlestar Galactica again, because this has all happened before, and it will happen again...
So say we all.
:) See my edit.
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