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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
455
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Posted - 2014.09.19 17:02:00 -
[271] - Quote
Capqu wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. A few more updates to this plan.
We've added some more powergrid to the Raptor, adjusted the Malediction mass/velocity/inertia so that it performs better when plated or while turning with the prop mod on, and added a touch of speed to the Claw.
OP is updated. are you going to completely ignore everything people have said about the rocket restriction or what some kind of justification would be nice, and some reasonable use case for rockets on a malediction it's actually pretty easy to understand
the malediction has four lows, allowing it to achieve <2s align, making it literally impossible to catch
having a 45km weapons platform with nearly perfect damage application on any target is hella overpowered
forcing the hull into rockets requires pilots to engage at distances where a suitable counter-response can be applied if the goal of the malediction pilot is to kill things by itself |
Brother Mercury
Fire on the Mountain
11
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Posted - 2014.09.19 17:12:00 -
[272] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Capqu wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. A few more updates to this plan.
We've added some more powergrid to the Raptor, adjusted the Malediction mass/velocity/inertia so that it performs better when plated or while turning with the prop mod on, and added a touch of speed to the Claw.
OP is updated. are you going to completely ignore everything people have said about the rocket restriction or what some kind of justification would be nice, and some reasonable use case for rockets on a malediction it's actually pretty easy to understand the malediction has four lows, allowing it to achieve <2s align, making it literally impossible to catch having a 45km weapons platform with nearly perfect damage application on any target is hella overpowered forcing the hull into rockets requires pilots to engage at distances where a suitable counter-response can be applied if the goal of the malediction pilot is to kill things by itself
We get that this is Fozzie's intention, but it's very unpersuasive. The Malediction's dps from that range is already anemic. My point being that the damage is so pathetic now to larger-than-frig-ships that this won't change anything. If a Mal still wants to shoot light missiles at targets, even without the RoF bonus post pending patch, it will and it will still have all the problems that Fozzie is worried about more in my opinion (agility, speed).
My point is that, currently, if a cruiser or HAC or BS gets caught by a few Maledictions (or one) while PvEing, if that pilot is going to die to the sh*t DPS the Malediction puts out now at that range, this change will not stop that. I'm sorry but if you're dying to ~80 dps from light missiles, you're going to die from a bit less than that as well. |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
670
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 17:16:00 -
[273] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Capqu wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. A few more updates to this plan.
We've added some more powergrid to the Raptor, adjusted the Malediction mass/velocity/inertia so that it performs better when plated or while turning with the prop mod on, and added a touch of speed to the Claw.
OP is updated. are you going to completely ignore everything people have said about the rocket restriction or what some kind of justification would be nice, and some reasonable use case for rockets on a malediction it's actually pretty easy to understand the malediction has four lows, allowing it to achieve <2s align, making it literally impossible to catch having a 45km weapons platform with nearly perfect damage application on any target is hella overpowered forcing the hull into rockets requires pilots to engage at distances where a suitable counter-response can be applied if the goal of the malediction pilot is to kill things by itself
i think you missed the part where he said -0.55 Inertia addressing that issue
also the fact that it has exactly the same damage as the crow now means that a lml malediction would just be a crow with -1 mid +2 lows, and no range bonus, no application bonus and a useless armor bonus topped off by 6% reduced rof
that line of nerfs is so unnecessary i don't even know where to begin this coming from the same balance team that thought -2.5% per level on a 10% bonus was enough to balance the most disgustingly overpowered ship in the game just solidifies the complete lack of thought that goes into anything balance related. they just roll a dice and see where it lands and then try justify it afterwards while ignoring valid criticism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
455
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Posted - 2014.09.19 17:38:00 -
[274] - Quote
Capqu wrote: i think you missed the part where he said -0.55 Inertia addressing that issue
also the fact that it has exactly the same damage as the crow now means that a lml malediction would just be a crow with -1 mid +2 lows, and no range bonus, no application bonus and a useless armor bonus topped off by 6% reduced rof
inertia got reduced but mass also got increased
also the malediction has one less launcher than the crow post-oceanus so the damage is not exactly identical
also yeah the armor bonus sucks if you are trying to make an uncatchable interceptor
it's almost like the changes are specifically designed to reduce the viability of uncatchable interceptors |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
818
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 17:44:00 -
[275] - Quote
useless armour bonus? lol |
Mizhir
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
68960
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Posted - 2014.09.19 18:02:00 -
[276] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: also yeah the armor bonus sucks if you are trying to make an uncatchable interceptor
Then don't use a malediction for that. One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
670
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Posted - 2014.09.19 18:29:00 -
[277] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: inertia got reduced but mass also got increased
that's a bad thing
Promiscuous Female wrote:also the malediction has one less launcher than the crow post-oceanus so the damage is not exactly identical 3 launchers with 25% rof is exactly the same as 4 launchers dps, i'm saying there is no reason to restrict the male to rockets when the crow exists
Promiscuous Female wrote: it's almost like the changes are specifically designed to reduce the viability of uncatchable interceptors
i'm fine with that, uncatchable is bullshit. but gutting the malediction into irrelevance is not the way to do it imo
i'd like the malediction to remain a threat to ratters basically, while just removing the uncatchability of them (make it so there is no possible way to align in under 2.5 s or w/e). i don't think removing the threat from ratters completely even while there is no-one actively camping for ceptors is a good thing. and until rockets get a rework, especially in the fitting department, they aren't viable really for anything https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
818
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 18:38:00 -
[278] - Quote
so you think instalocking gatecamps are a legit and good thing for the game |
May Arethusa
PillowBrigade Inc Heiian Conglomerate
17
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Posted - 2014.09.19 18:48:00 -
[279] - Quote
Let's look at some of the claims in this thread so far shall we? Since I assume you're only listened to the excessively vocal nullbears losing ship after ship because they're not looking at the screen.
Interceptors do 5000m/s - In anything even remotely close to a 1.9 aligning crow (an impossibility that we'll cover soon) speeds like this requires a HG Snake set. The actual speed? 4687m/s. A malediction will come closer, doing 4829m/s. Warrior IIs already beat these speeds before applying skills and hull bonuses. This is of course assuming the Interceptor is flying in a straight line, which it isn't if it intends to hold point. I've seen plenty of Interceptors dying to ratters because they weren't paying attention. They can be beaten, but the people we target on these roams are the people who can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to protect themselves. Apparently it's okay to target semi-afk miners in high sec, but not semi-afk ratters in null, go figure.
1.9 Align Interceptors are uncatchable - They're really not, and we have the loss mails to prove it. While incredibly difficult to pin down with an insta-locking ship, it can be done. I always chuckled when I saw a Stiletto in the middle of a gate camp in null, because it's the wrong ship for the job, and a sign of the lack of imagination from most of the people who live out there. A remote sensor boosted Keres on the other hand, well then I might start to worry. This is assuming you try to catch them on the gate, which is stupid enough to begin with. A single MWD+Scram frigate successfully defended several ratters by simply warping to the site and chasing down the orbiting Interceptors. Smartbombing the warp-in point works. Hiding Rapiers in sites works. A lot of things work in fact. Gate camps not so much. As far as travel interceptors go, they're essentially 30M shuttles, should we also nerf shuttle agility so you can catch those easily? Cry more about interdiction nullification, not all of us live in null.
The crow aligns in 1.9 seconds - This hasn't been possible without implants since Rubicon 1.1. 2.04 seconds is the fastest they will align, requiring all 3 low slots and 2 T2 rigs to achieve even this. That means no MAPC, which means no MSE, which with the reduced speed makes the Crow an easy target inside point range.
The Malediction does ~100DPS, can align in under 2 seconds, and can do 5000m/s - It can't. I've covered the speed issue already, and it requires a significant investment to achieve this. The Malediction will do at best 85 DPS (before implants) while retaining it's ability to fit a tank and align in 1.9s.
The crow is overpowered - A fleet of Crows is certainly an issue, but so is a fleet of Ishtars and they were barely touched. The Crow certainly isn't alone in its ability to project DPS at such ranges. Talwars apply more DPS at an equal range and so while cap stable. Coraxes apply more than double the Crow's DPS at even greater ranges, with even better application. Harpies fulfil similar roles to the Crow when fit for sniping. Cormorants also. The list goes on, and extends far beyond Frigates and Destroyers. Ishtars are an even bigger problem when it comes to long range damage application, but hey, a minor nerf to sentry tracking fixed that, right?
I could continue, but I'll deal with the ship changes themselves, which are frankly laughable. You've essentially turned Interceptors into poorly tanked, low DPS Assault Frigs.
The Crow
Reducing their damage fails to address the issue of their range. Kiting Crows already use Faction ammo which don't require a bonus to explosion radius to apply DPS. Attempting to persuade people to use Fury/Rage with the hull bonus really won't achieve much. The additional launcher, coupled with a lack of additional PG makes it all but impossible to fit even the most modest of tanks. 3.5 PG to fill 5 slots? Great job there. If the issue was the inability to apply damage to a Crow 45-60km away from you, what do you think the result of lowering their sig radius by removing the ability to fit a MSE will be? Especially when they start fitting damps and TDs to counter the lack of a tank.
Shifting the current damage and velocity bonuses to rockets only would give the Crow similar DPS potential (after accounting for the additional launcher), but at only 12-15km. They then retain the ability to fit a nominal tank and still perform their role as a fleet interceptor.
The Malediction
Range and DPS were never an issue here, it was agility and speed. The changes really aren't that bad however, though the rocket damage is still pitiful when compared to other brawlers. It's still possible to LML, MWD, long point at the cost of a low slot and rig, which is less of an issue given the slot layout. Also leaves room for a plate, which boosts your tank and keeps your sig down. No longer the speed demon it once was, but it's competitive. My only real concern here is that non-bonused weapon systems offer higher DPS, which still results in a wasted hull bonus where rockets are concerned. I'd rather see the DPS and/or range on a par with the rocket Crow, providing both armour and shield doctrines with equally viable missile/rocket Interceptors.
The rest
Only issues I've seen raised outside this thread have been potential tracking issues with the Raptor. Generally acceptable changes though.
Light Missiles
An unwanted and unnecessary nerf. LML Frigates are now essentially useless, doubly so in Faction Warfare thanks to the DPS check on plex NPCs. It was hard enough breaking/outlasting an active tanked ship with light missiles before capping out, even a marginal drop in DPS makes this a virtual impossibility. Destroyers suffer less as alpha is the key, but fighting outnumbered with longer cycle times isn't going to work. |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
670
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 18:51:00 -
[280] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:so you think instalocking gatecamps are a legit and good thing for the game
no but i think a straight up uncatchable interceptor is even worse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
818
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 18:55:00 -
[281] - Quote
Capqu wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:so you think instalocking gatecamps are a legit and good thing for the game no but i think a straight up uncatchable interceptor is even worse
why? they can't kill anything anyway. we have other pvp-immune ships. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
455
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 19:10:00 -
[282] - Quote
Capqu wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:also the malediction has one less launcher than the crow post-oceanus so the damage is not exactly identical 3 launchers with 25% rof is exactly the same as 4 launchers dps, 3 * 1.25 = 3.75
3.75 < 4
think, mcfly, think |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
818
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 19:12:00 -
[283] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Capqu wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:also the malediction has one less launcher than the crow post-oceanus so the damage is not exactly identical 3 launchers with 25% rof is exactly the same as 4 launchers dps, 3 * 1.25 = 3.75 3.75 < 4 think, mcfly, think
everyone laugh at this guy |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
70
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 19:27:00 -
[284] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Capqu wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:also the malediction has one less launcher than the crow post-oceanus so the damage is not exactly identical 3 launchers with 25% rof is exactly the same as 4 launchers dps, 3 * 1.25 = 3.75 3.75 < 4 think, mcfly, think
Rate of fire, not damage. 3 / 0.75 = 4
(This is where I say "lrn2red", right?) |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1645
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Posted - 2014.09.19 19:28:00 -
[285] - Quote
Capqu wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. A few more updates to this plan.
We've added some more powergrid to the Raptor, adjusted the Malediction mass/velocity/inertia so that it performs better when plated or while turning with the prop mod on, and added a touch of speed to the Claw.
OP is updated. are you going to completely ignore everything people have said about the rocket restriction or what some kind of justification would be nice, and some reasonable use case for rockets on a malediction
Want one? Historically khanid ships were supposed to use short range missiles only. So they can say LORE. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Ehud Gera
Heart of Pyerite Imperial Outlaws.
8
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Posted - 2014.09.19 19:38:00 -
[286] - Quote
Fozzie:
On the note of the malediction. Since it's being led in the direction of plate+rocket+scram can we consider giving it a utility slot for a nos.
I feel like all inty's that are forced into that Neut range should have a way to function their tackle or prop mod even if only after nos cycles. Especially with how popular drone boats are the option to "Throw on a neut" is just too easy of a counter and leaves little creativity to close range inty's and drastically narrows their engagement profile.
Thoughts?
-Ehud
PS: I don't know much about the current state of other (only) close range inty's and if they have utility slots. Maybe i'm totally off about this idea but i'm just trying to logic it. |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
670
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 20:14:00 -
[287] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Capqu wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:also the malediction has one less launcher than the crow post-oceanus so the damage is not exactly identical 3 launchers with 25% rof is exactly the same as 4 launchers dps, 3 * 1.25 = 3.75 3.75 < 4 think, mcfly, think
sorry thats not how rof works, thats how a damage bonus would work
it's 3/0.75 as someone pointed out earlier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
670
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 20:16:00 -
[288] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Capqu wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. A few more updates to this plan.
We've added some more powergrid to the Raptor, adjusted the Malediction mass/velocity/inertia so that it performs better when plated or while turning with the prop mod on, and added a touch of speed to the Claw.
OP is updated. are you going to completely ignore everything people have said about the rocket restriction or what some kind of justification would be nice, and some reasonable use case for rockets on a malediction Want one? Historically khanid ships were supposed to use short range missiles only. So they can say LORE.
yea and that is a pretty good reason honestly, amarr do use rockets primarily - however i don't think game balance should be restricted by lore, and i don't think rockets are in a place right now where they can be considered as a primary weapon choice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
XvXTeacherVxV
Nightmare Machinery
108
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 20:21:00 -
[289] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Crow: Replace the 10% per level kinetic damage bonus with a 5% per level missile explosion radius bonus. -1 Lowslot +1 Highslot +1 Launcher +5 CPU
Malediction: Restrict the missile RoF bonus to only apply to Rocket Launchers +1 PWG +141000 Mass -0.55 Inertia +35 Velocity
Raptor: -1 Highslot +1 Midslot +2 PWG +5 CPU +51000 Mass +0.05 Inertia
Ares: Increase Small Hybrid tracking bonus from 7.5% to 10% per level -40000 Mass +0.1 Inertia +40 Capacitor +30s Capacitor Recharge Time
Stiletto: -10000 Mass
Taranis: -10000 Mass
Claw: +5 Velocity
The Crow needs a PG buff if you're going to make it fit another launcher AND take away a low-slot. Why is the Malediction the only interceptor that gets a bonus to just one weapon system instead of both? The Claw still has a terrible slot layout. If it had 3 mids it would see a lot more use.+5 Velocity will not fix its problems.
The rest of these changes look ok. Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE |
Lugia3
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
1283
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 20:22:00 -
[290] - Quote
Honestly, this won't bring the Crow or Male back in line. Crow changes, meh, okay. Changing the Malediction into a rocket-only boat will literally kill all use of the ship. It's better off with autocannons than rockets. "CCP Dolan is full of ****." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov! |
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Archetype 66
Epsilon Lyr Nulli Secunda
161
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Posted - 2014.09.19 20:40:00 -
[291] - Quote
Missile formula is broken. Explosion radius is always more important than velocity...except when the target is still. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
81
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 21:26:00 -
[292] - Quote
Capqu wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Capqu wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. A few more updates to this plan.
We've added some more powergrid to the Raptor, adjusted the Malediction mass/velocity/inertia so that it performs better when plated or while turning with the prop mod on, and added a touch of speed to the Claw.
OP is updated. are you going to completely ignore everything people have said about the rocket restriction or what some kind of justification would be nice, and some reasonable use case for rockets on a malediction Want one? Historically khanid ships were supposed to use short range missiles only. So they can say LORE. yea and that is a pretty good reason honestly, amarr do use rockets primarily - however i don't think game balance should be restricted by lore, and i don't think rockets are in a place right now where they can be considered as a primary weapon choice
expect they ignored the lore for the HAC rebalance aka the Sacrilege |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
70
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 22:03:00 -
[293] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:The Crow needs a PG buff if you're going to make it fit another launcher AND take away a low-slot. Why is the Malediction the only interceptor that gets a bonus to just one weapon system instead of both? The Claw still has a terrible slot layout. If it had 3 mids it would see a lot more use.+5 Velocity will not fix its problems.
The point is to make the crow harder to fit, I think. That said, if you're not stacking it with only agility mods and more agility mods, you probably already had either a co-processor or an overclock on it because its CPU is so gimped. If you trade that for an ACR and take off a CPU-using low slot, then things fit pretty well anyway, at the cost of some damage or tank. (Heck, it increases the amount of spare CPU a bit, so you can fit something other than a painter or sebo in the fourth mid slot.)
I can't speak to the Claw, having literally never flown it, but that is part of the reason I haven't. Except for bubble immunity, the Jaguar (an AF) seems to do its job about as well, modulo some shield-versus-armor (or more realistically shield tank versus speed and no tank) considerations. |
Brother Mercury
Fire on the Mountain
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 22:58:00 -
[294] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:Let's look at some of the claims in this thread so far shall we?
....
The Malediction does ~100DPS, can align in under 2 seconds, and can do 5000m/s - It can't. I've covered the speed issue already, and it requires a significant investment to achieve this. The Malediction will do at best 85 DPS (before implants) while retaining it's ability to fit a tank and align in 1.9s.
....
The Malediction
Range and DPS were never an issue here, it was agility and speed. The changes really aren't that bad however, though the rocket damage is still pitiful when compared to other brawlers. It's still possible to LML, MWD, long point at the cost of a low slot and rig, which is less of an issue given the slot layout. Also leaves room for a plate, which boosts your tank and keeps your sig down. No longer the speed demon it once was, but it's competitive. My only real concern here is that non-bonused weapon systems offer higher DPS, which still results in a wasted hull bonus where rockets are concerned. I'd rather see the DPS and/or range on a par with the rocket Crow, providing both armour and shield doctrines with equally viable missile/rocket Interceptors.
This is not empty quoting. Fozzie and Rise please read this and really think about the valid points raised here. You gentlemen are worried about speed, alignment, and DPS all together. The Malediction already has to make sacrifices to it's DPS to get the great speed and align time. With these changes you are doing more than making the ship choose, you are gutting it.
I honestly don't see how ~80 ish DPS is a problem (assuming amazing skills, near perfect). Remember this is its DPS when you want to get it to go close(ish) to 5km, align fast, and have essentially no tank. |
Lug Muad'Dib
Wise Humans Sword
2
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Posted - 2014.09.19 23:29:00 -
[295] - Quote
Totally killing my lovelly LM malediction cause bad pilot can't kill it in drones boat, it's game balancing ? |
elitatwo
Congregatio
308
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 00:15:00 -
[296] - Quote
Lug Muad'Dib wrote:Totally killing my lovelly LM malediction cause bad pilot can't kill it in drones boat, it's game balancing ?
Nah, you don't understand how 'balancing' here works:
Ishtar overpowered, nerf light missiles!
Problem solved signature |
Madbuster73
V0LTA Triumvirate.
117
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 00:27:00 -
[297] - Quote
Lug Muad'Dib wrote:Totally killing my lovelly LM malediction cause bad pilot can't kill it in drones boat, it's game balancing ?
Yes, Goonswarm farmers were crying out load to their friends in CSM and CCP staff because they cant AFK farm in their Ishtars anymore. And they listened. Now when a Malediction has a Goon farming Ishtar tackled they will have time to form a fleet to kill the malediction because it wil take the malediction now 10 minutes to kill it instead of 5 minutes.
GG |
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures Rim Worlds Protectorate
48
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Posted - 2014.09.20 00:35:00 -
[298] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Yazzinra wrote:I look forward to all these crow gangs being replaced by Ares gangs.
you're funny
A girl can dream.
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Max Brewsky
Iskender Kebap Corp
4
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Posted - 2014.09.20 00:41:00 -
[299] - Quote
Madbuster73 wrote:Lug Muad'Dib wrote:Totally killing my lovelly LM malediction cause bad pilot can't kill it in drones boat, it's game balancing ? Yes, Goonswarm farmers were crying out load to their friends in CSM and CCP staff because they cant AFK farm in their Ishtars anymore. And they listened. Now when a Malediction has a Goon farming Ishtar tackled they will have time to form a fleet to kill the malediction because it wil take the malediction now 10 minutes to kill it instead of 5 minutes. GG The Malediction was never ment to be a one-person-afktar-killer. It should be a fast tackler, nothing more. Please stop complaining and adapt to that. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
779
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 00:41:00 -
[300] - Quote
Madbuster73 wrote:Lug Muad'Dib wrote:Totally killing my lovelly LM malediction cause bad pilot can't kill it in drones boat, it's game balancing ? Yes, Goonswarm farmers were crying out load to their friends in CSM and CCP staff because they cant AFK farm in their Ishtars anymore. And they listened. Now when a Malediction has a Goon farming Ishtar tackled they will have time to form a fleet to kill the malediction because it wil take the malediction now 10 minutes to kill it instead of 5 minutes. GG
Nah, we still run Ishtars all day every day (they are also broken)
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