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Aggressive Apricot Inkura
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 06:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey guys, I just wanted to throw out an idea and see what the community thought about this idea I had to try and (at least temporarily) fix power projection for major null-sec blocs. I see that there was another thread up about this, and I wasn't sure if I should post this idea I had in a new thread or that one, so I figured I would post another one for maximum attention.
Basically, my idea is to add mass limits when jumping to cynosural fields. For a basic example (obviously numbers would have to undergo severe balancing), a cyno would only be able to support two super-carriers going to it before "collapsing", and the character that lit the cyno would be unable to move or light another cyno until the normal cyno timer has run out. This would prevent massive movement of fleets across the universe without severe cost to the alliance attempting it, and would still allow for a small amount of capitals to be moved around at once, thereby (somewhat) eliminating the blob factor of just lighting a cyno and laughing as a million slowcats hit the field. Obviously this mass limit would apply to bridges and covert cynos as well. A simple explanation for this occurrence could be that the cyno creates a miniature wormhole, and (as all wormholes do) would collapse after moving a certain amount of mass through it.
If there is something that needs to be balanced or an issue with the mechanics or lore, please feel free to comment about it. This was just a cool idea that I thought of one day in class, and wanted to see if it would be viable, as well as what the community thought about it. |
Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
92
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Posted - 2014.07.16 07:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not a terrible Idea, thought there might have to be a ship limit as well since Supers are so huge. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1503
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Posted - 2014.07.16 07:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alliance leaders would just send twenty cyno frigs instead of one. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2014.07.16 08:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
This is somewhat similar to WH rules, but I think power projection in null sec should remain as it is.
Now, CCP should introduce a new type of space to explore and conquer, with rules that would prevent power projection with the current ships, rather than changing the way null sec works currently.
I do not think it is fair to the players that spent time and energy colonizing and building up,to the current stage to pull the rug under them.
With all the ideas and the experience of the previous spaces design, null sec and w-space in particular, this new space design could account for the current stagnation issues of null sec and create new challenges for everybody.
Obviously, CCP has done a good job with w-space when they introduced it. It may still be a few years before w-space is fully colonized and production of caps within each hole pretty much make them as stagnant as current null sec politics is. So it is about time to introduce something new that will shuffle things around a bit, rather than changing the rules in existing space.... "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
154
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Posted - 2014.07.16 10:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
What about cyno beacons?
Limiting factors for power projection are fuel amount and skills of the character in the ship. Making a cyno have X amount of charges (like a WH) would only serve a purpose of removing fuel requirements for ships to jump and bridge. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2819
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Posted - 2014.07.16 11:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
So cyno 1 goes up, a bunch of carriers go through and light cynos 2-10, repeat until the fleet is through.
All that changes is that you make it much, much harder for smaller entities to use caps, while the big guys just throw cynos on their carriers and laugh at you. |
Aggressive Apricot Inkura
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 13:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So cyno 1 goes up, a bunch of carriers go through and light cynos 2-10, repeat until the fleet is through.
All that changes is that you make it much, much harder for smaller entities to use caps, while the big guys just throw cynos on their carriers and laugh at you.
I actually had not considered that. Perhaps jumping to a cyno would cause a polarization, preventing someone from lighting a cyno for x amount of time after jumping to one. Or perhaps recon ships could get a large bonus to mass allowance, making it difficult to move capitals without those bonuses. |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2581
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Posted - 2014.07.16 13:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
I am going to go ahead and formalize what I am going to call De'Veldrin's Corallary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null. MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
456
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Alliance leaders would just send twenty cyno frigs instead of one.
This.
Or pilots would just bring their own and fleetem up as needed. More cautious (or paranoid) cap pilots I knew always had their own private oh crap cyno on standy just in case not only the main op went sour, but the evac system for caps was compromised as well.
Or for when they just wanted to go to bed and fleet was not showing signs of heading home. Drop fleet, make their own with cyno and get the hell out setup basically. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2822
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aggressive Apricot Inkura wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So cyno 1 goes up, a bunch of carriers go through and light cynos 2-10, repeat until the fleet is through.
All that changes is that you make it much, much harder for smaller entities to use caps, while the big guys just throw cynos on their carriers and laugh at you. I actually had not considered that. Perhaps jumping to a cyno would cause a polarization, preventing someone from lighting a cyno for x amount of time after jumping to one. Or perhaps recon ships could get a large bonus to mass allowance, making it difficult to move capitals without those bonuses.
Then fifty cyno alts will be needed for every capital move op, thus making the use of capitals pretty much exclusive to the big blocs. |
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Aggressive Apricot Inkura
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Aggressive Apricot Inkura wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So cyno 1 goes up, a bunch of carriers go through and light cynos 2-10, repeat until the fleet is through.
All that changes is that you make it much, much harder for smaller entities to use caps, while the big guys just throw cynos on their carriers and laugh at you. I actually had not considered that. Perhaps jumping to a cyno would cause a polarization, preventing someone from lighting a cyno for x amount of time after jumping to one. Or perhaps recon ships could get a large bonus to mass allowance, making it difficult to move capitals without those bonuses. Then fifty cyno alts will be needed for every capital move op, thus making the use of capitals pretty much exclusive to the big blocs.
While my response might not have been a very good solution to the problem, the capitals that lit cynos would still be stuck in space for 15 minutes after lighting them. While it certainly isn't the worst thing in the world, it would definitely slow the ability of the fleet to jump across multiple jumps with this tactic. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2822
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aggressive Apricot Inkura wrote: While my response might not have been a very good solution to the problem, the capitals that lit cynos would still be stuck in space for 15 minutes after lighting them. While it certainly isn't the worst thing in the world, it would definitely slow the ability of the fleet to jump across multiple jumps with this tactic.
Ten minutes. Which still means that smaller groups, who cannot defend their caps for that ten minute timer, aren't going to be able to use the things.
That, or, people will use 50 cyno alts. |
McDeran
Shifting Sands Trader Cartel Bleak Horizon Alliance.
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
How about this: split the current cyno functionality into more mods. One that can be fitted on subcaptials, but only admits (unlimited) jump freighters and/or one carrier/dread. One which can only be fitted on captial ships, which admits multiple carriers/dreads and/or one supercapital, but takes x amount of time before it activates. And finally, a cyno mod that can only be fitted on supercaps that will allow an unlimited amount of supercaps to jump, perhaps also after some delay.
This means that you can still instahotdrop carriers and dreads, but only one for every cyno. If you want to drop even more capitals, you'll have to cyno in a well tanked dread or carrier that can survive for the amount of time required to activate a capital cyno. To deploy supercapitals, you'd have to take it a step further by first jumping in one supercap and then keeping it alive until it activates a supercap cyno. Or alternatively, the capital cyno fitted to a carrier/dread could also admit unlimited supercapitals, but after twice as long as it takes to activate it for one supercapital. In short:
Subcapital can cyno in 1 carrier/dread Carrier dread can cyno in ONE supercap and unlimited carriers/dreads after x minutes Supercap can cyno in unlimited supercaps after y minutes.
So, it's a tiered system, where you can cyno in as many ships as you want from the same tier as your ship, but only one from the tier above; and there is a delay before the cyno activates so that you have to keep it defended.
Edit: now that i think of it, it would make it very hard to move supercapitals around. Oh well. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
935
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Aggressive Apricot Inkura wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So cyno 1 goes up, a bunch of carriers go through and light cynos 2-10, repeat until the fleet is through.
All that changes is that you make it much, much harder for smaller entities to use caps, while the big guys just throw cynos on their carriers and laugh at you. I actually had not considered that. Perhaps jumping to a cyno would cause a polarization, preventing someone from lighting a cyno for x amount of time after jumping to one. Or perhaps recon ships could get a large bonus to mass allowance, making it difficult to move capitals without those bonuses. Then fifty cyno alts will be needed for every capital move op, thus making the use of capitals pretty much exclusive to the big blocs.
Why would this be the case? Your 30K man group might need 50 cynos, but my 3K man group would not. Why is it when a representative of a big group white knights on behalf of smaller groups they always seem to project their big number requirements to the little guy and say "See it won't work for little guys!"
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2823
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Why would this be the case? Your 30K man group might need 50 cynos, but my 3K man group would not. Why is it when a representative of a big group white knights on behalf of smaller groups they always seem to project their big number requirements to the little guy and say "See it won't work for little guys!"
Unless your 3k man group wanted to use more than two supers, or a handful of caps, in which case you'd need a big ol' pile of cyno alts too.
PL is a 2k man group. How many cyno alts do you think they'd need to deploy to a warzone? How many do you think would be required for the next BR-5?
How many would be required for, say, twenty incursion runners to deploy a couple of regions away in carriers? |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
935
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Why would this be the case? Your 30K man group might need 50 cynos, but my 3K man group would not. Why is it when a representative of a big group white knights on behalf of smaller groups they always seem to project their big number requirements to the little guy and say "See it won't work for little guys!"
Unless your 3k man group wanted to use more than two supers, or a handful of caps, in which case you'd need a big ol' pile of cyno alts too. PL is a 2k man group. How many cyno alts do you think they'd need to deploy to a warzone? How many do you think would be required for the next BR-5? How many would be required for, say, twenty incursion runners to deploy a couple of regions away in carriers?
Not nearly as many as you are trying to make it out to be.
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2823
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Why would this be the case? Your 30K man group might need 50 cynos, but my 3K man group would not. Why is it when a representative of a big group white knights on behalf of smaller groups they always seem to project their big number requirements to the little guy and say "See it won't work for little guys!"
Unless your 3k man group wanted to use more than two supers, or a handful of caps, in which case you'd need a big ol' pile of cyno alts too. PL is a 2k man group. How many cyno alts do you think they'd need to deploy to a warzone? How many do you think would be required for the next BR-5? How many would be required for, say, twenty incursion runners to deploy a couple of regions away in carriers? Not nearly as many as you are trying to make it out to be.
Minimum of one hundred and twenty five to move a fleet of supercarriers one jump... |
Aggressive Apricot Inkura
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
1
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
Unless your 3k man group wanted to use more than two supers, or a handful of caps, in which case you'd need a big ol' pile of cyno alts too.
PL is a 2k man group. How many cyno alts do you think they'd need to deploy to a warzone? How many do you think would be required for the next BR-5?
How many would be required for, say, twenty incursion runners to deploy a couple of regions away in carriers?
Not nearly as many as you are trying to make it out to be. Minimum of one hundred and twenty five to move a fleet of supercarriers one jump...
It should require a large amount of support characters to move a fleet of some of the most enormous, strongest ships in the game across systems. If anyone thinks the current deterrent (fuel cost) makes any sort of difference, they're just kidding themselves.
Additionally, I don't think PL will really ever count as a small, up-and-coming alliance with the number of capitals they can field. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2825
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Posted - 2014.07.17 00:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Aggressive Apricot Inkura wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
Unless your 3k man group wanted to use more than two supers, or a handful of caps, in which case you'd need a big ol' pile of cyno alts too.
PL is a 2k man group. How many cyno alts do you think they'd need to deploy to a warzone? How many do you think would be required for the next BR-5?
How many would be required for, say, twenty incursion runners to deploy a couple of regions away in carriers?
Not nearly as many as you are trying to make it out to be. Minimum of one hundred and twenty five to move a fleet of supercarriers one jump... It should require a large amount of support characters to move a fleet of some of the most enormous, strongest ships in the game across systems. If anyone thinks the current deterrent (fuel cost) makes any sort of difference, they're just kidding themselves. Additionally, I don't think PL will really ever count as a small, up-and-coming alliance with the number of capitals they can field.
Alright then, can you tell the class why you think the battle of BR-5 shouldn't have happened? |
Aggressive Apricot Inkura
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
1
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Posted - 2014.07.17 00:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Alright then, can you tell the class why you think the battle of BR-5 shouldn't have happened?
To be quite honest, I don't think alliances should be able to easily drop a massive amount of titans and supercarriers at the drop of a hat. I'm simply attempting to remedy what I think is an issue to the difficult of power projection through this suggestion. If the way I attempted to communicate that was poor, I apologize. |
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Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID Takahashi Alliance
840
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Posted - 2014.07.17 00:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Alliance leaders would just send twenty cyno frigs instead of one. Alas, this is exactly the case.
If anything, it would mean that the big blocs would retain their "power projection" while smaller entities would find it even harder to compete... http://meme-generator.me/media/created/d3r3t8.jpg |
Cold Burrito
Master B8ers Brawls Deep
40
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Posted - 2014.07.17 05:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sort of an extension of the mass limited idea, but what if the landing distance from the target cyno is increased as more mass is jumped into the system? Make some system property such as 'subspace turbulence level' that increases as mass is jumped in, and decreases exponentially in time.
It wouldn't completely stop power projection, but it would slow down groups who like to jump large groups of capitals all together, cap up/dock, and then jump to the next system. Move ops for small carrier groups wouldn't be greatly affected, but being the 100th dread to jump to station that hour will probably land you far outside of the docking ring. As for supers, any moderate group of them could almost count on being out of range of their cap buddies during a large move.
Strategies would form up to take advantage of this. Destabilizing the home/transit systems of your enemy, "priming" a target to catch the repair crowd, limiting your fleet sizes... But this sounds more like an incentive for people to do dumb things with capitals, which isn't really a bad thing. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1713
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Posted - 2014.07.17 07:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
It goes against the lore: a cyno is a beacon, not a portal. The ship's jump drives only use it as a reference and draw no energy from it.
I think it would be better to make supercapitals cost more fuel to jump comparable to their larger size. Probably wouldn't make a significant difference to most alliances, but I think it is at least a step in the right direction. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
12
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Posted - 2014.07.17 14:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:It goes against the lore: a cyno is a beacon, not a portal. The ship's jump drives only use it as a reference and draw no energy from it.
I think it would be better to make supercapitals cost more fuel to jump comparable to their larger size. Probably wouldn't make a significant difference to most alliances, but I think it is at least a step in the right direction. Change the lore.
Think about it; the lore was written to explain the mechanics involved.
Change the mechanics, change the lore. |
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