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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 56 post(s) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6877
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 15:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sarin Gaston wrote:"Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements " Not to be rude but i think removing the standing requirement is stupid. You're basically telling those that actually grinded for the standings "Thanks but it was a waste of your time!" I hope there is some form of a return or something for this because you're about to put the last nail in the coffin for missions/epic arcs and so forth. it was a waste of your time
the correct solution is an apology and axing that atrocious mechanic forever not "well sarin gaston had to do it once so we must have everyone suffer equally" Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6879
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 15:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
What happens to a BPO in research/build in a pos when this change goes live? Is it moved to the POS, or does it remain in the station? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6881
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 15:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
also, w/r/t this:
Quote:Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.
will you be looking at runs as well? for example, bpcs of capital ship components are hilariously useless as they're capped at 5 runs, so you need to reinstall every eight hours or so if you wanted to use them, a huge slowdown unless you can reinstall like clockwork Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6885
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
basically my concern with the changeover is this: currently, any number of titan bpos are sitting safely in a station, building in a pos or copying in a pos with the expectation they're safe
come changeover day, either these get grandfathered and the bpo is delivered back into the station upon completion/pos death, or it's delivered into the pos.
we need to know now, because there's only a short period of time to adjust planned builds before you're locked in (unless you care to self-abort a titan) assuming this patch comes out in june or so. I assume this will be a coding mess either way, but it's sort of key to know now how it will be handled. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6885
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:"Any industry feature must be balanced around our risk versus reward philosophy"
Does this mean your finaly going to nerf moon mining to rebalance RISK vs reward? :) as your alliance just found out by getting its moons curbstomped holding moons ain't risk free Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6890
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
I really appreciate the pos standings change, but have you considered this makes it trivial to avoid wardecs even with a pos? Before, losing your standings if you had a pos was the only reason you wouldn't immediately remake your corp, now...not so much.
Will you be taking any steps to make wardec evasion harder through remaking the corporation? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6890
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Slappy Andven wrote: This whole Dev Blog has convinced me that the Dev's have zero understanding of how industrialists work in this game. This will end up being like the bad nerfs to Incursions that had to be backed out because they rendered incursions unplayable. When you can't buy ships because we won't make them, you know who to come back and complain to.
Or, everything gets switched to station manufacturing, and the prices on everything goes through the roof as a result. Yay, inflation! Good job, Devs!
Is there a SINGLE Dev who spent significant time building things in this game, or are you just all from Goons and the like? I'm trying really hard to keep this positive, but it's a challenge. It's clear to me that the days of horribly bad decisions on the part of CCP are very far from over. You're out of side projects like WoD to kill to make up for bad decisions like this. What will you kill next?
if costs go up that means that industry becomes more profitable and people can make money by displacing you
sounds ok to me Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6890
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
When you say "14% of cost" as the max slot fee, what does that mean for research jobs? That only makes sense for manufacturing. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6890
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
oh yeah: with anyone able to put up a pos you actually need to code in refineries using skills or absolutely nobody in empire ever will use a station refinery Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6891
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
how on earth are ~serious industrialists~ complaining that they might have a billion in bpos in a pos
it's an empire pos you get 24h notice before anyone can shoot it so you can vaccumn them all out and even if you don't, it's only a billion isk Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6894
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Querns wrote:On a related note:
The removal of standings for anchoring POS makes it trivial to evade destruction of your POS. Right now, if you want to move your POS to a new corporation upon wardec, it takes seven (7) days for standings to promulgate to the corporation's standings. This had the effect of severely limiting the amount of "POS cycling" that could occur. With the removal of standings from the equation, it is now a reasonable response, upon being wardecced, to create a new corporation, unanchor the POS under wardec, and sit on the moon in question in a cloaked industrial sitting in the new, unwardecced corporation, ready to anchor a new pos when the old one comes up.
I suggest that a new corporation be required to wait seven (7) days before being eligible to anchor a new pos. This brings the new era in line with the convoluted, yet functional system that exists today. This is a good idea and should get implemented. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6894
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Riela Tanal wrote:You need take access in a corp array in order to build, if you have those roles you can simply steal the bpo. This can be solved by making copies but some bpo copes are still worth a lot of isk and can be still stolen. what ones are worth more than like 20m isk besides supercaps Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6894
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Boltorano wrote:Weaselior wrote:how on earth are ~serious industrialists~ complaining that they might have a billion in bpos in a pos
it's an empire pos you get 24h notice before anyone can shoot it so you can vaccumn them all out and even if you don't, it's only a billion isk I had over 40b in BPOs researching at a single pos at one point, and even then it was hard to justify the cost of fuel. If the BPOs need to be in the labs, that sort of operation is only 24 hours without the right people being able to log in away from complete disaster. I have over 100b of bpos technically in a pos right now, obviously I will move around which ones are where but for anything short of supercap bpos it's hardly a big deal to put it at risk. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Weaselior wrote:Riela Tanal wrote:You need take access in a corp array in order to build, if you have those roles you can simply steal the bpo. This can be solved by making copies but some bpo copes are still worth a lot of isk and can be still stolen. what ones are worth more than like 20m isk besides supercaps 10 Run BPO BS, BPC, Dread/Carrier BPC, T2 BPC ... shall I continue? under 10m, like 20-50m, under 10m except probably jf and blops and marauders which run at most like 100m
so yes, please continue proving bpcs are simply not a real theft target Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:Actually, most module BPOs with decent PE/ME research are worth quite a bit more than 20m. yeah except we're talking about copies, not bpos Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kadl wrote: So an industrialist needs a spare corporation in reserve? I am not sure your suggestion addresses the problem.
tying up an alt makes it at least require a mediocum of planning to trivially avoid wardecs
i would still be irritated at the ease but it would be a vast improvement you must admit Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Rofl... when was the last time you had a look at full run BS and Cap BPC? And a lot of the T2 BPC for BLOPS/HAC/CS/JF (ofc) are worth more than 20M and if stored in numbers in a POS for production very well a juicy target in addition to the other billions in materials in the POS for the production and invention. bs bpcs have been under a million a run for like half a decade
when it comes to sticking ENOUGH 20m t2 bpcs in a pos to become a theft target: who cares, you're leaving more stuff in there that's a much better theft target like, say, the materials for those ships or the finished ships themselves
until then you keep them in an audit can or the like, it is incredibly trivial to secure your bpcs if you insist on having a theft-worthy amount and it is mind-boggling this simple problem it takes thirty seconds to reason out a solution to has people crying for a change Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Grendell wrote:I really hope you address the blueprint voting/lockdown system before making the slot changes. Allow a sort of emergency quick vote or something when the starbase gets attacked or reinforced.
unneeded: you can't lock a bpo in a pos even with this
the only use would be to make it even easier to corp-hop to avoid wardecs by moving your station bpos which isn't something we should be encouraging i think Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Alyxportur wrote:You didn't explain how the price scaling will or will not be implemented for sovereignty nullsec. Does this mean that outposts will be forced into this pricing scheme? or will they remain a manually specified cost? or will we have the ability to choose between one or the other since, as it is nullsec, we own the outpost. They did: outposts have the same cost scaling mechanic and that part goes into a sink, the station owner can also manually specify a cost.
What was not specified is how fast they scale up - if, say, an amarr station with 100 simultaneous jobs has the same cost as a highsec station with 100 or if its lower, and I assume that will be mentioned when they also mention what they're doing with the slot bonus upgrades. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kadl wrote:No. It just looks like an impediment to newer industrialists while older industrialists with more accounts get a pass. Designing a feature whose main focus is to hinder newer players seems foolish. The problem I see is related to the War Dec, corporation, and POS systems. All of those need real iterations to make them functional. So, yes you should be able to claim a POS or POCO location using a War Dec. Making high sec industry more convoluted does not seem like the proper solution. your proposal that we ought not improve things until there is a complete fix is dumb and wrong
by effectively charging 1/3rd a plex for a (weak) wardec immunity, and charging 2 1/3rds plex per month for complete wardec immunity, we significantly penalize the cowardly through an easy-to-implement system that dramatically improves wardecs without requiring massive change Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Entity wrote:So you're saying 8 years of operating a hisec POS with 2.5 trillion ISK worth (that's 2500 billion) of BPOs, you're suddenly expecting me to put said 2.5 trillion ISK into a paper space container and not locked down in my hangar?
I like the changes but that part is just flabbergastingly stupid the real issue here is your apparent belief you should be entitled to get the most advantages possible from your 2.5 trillion in bpos absolutely risk free and how long that was tolerated
eight years was 7.9 too long Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6898
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
protip research poshavers: it is expected and anticipated your expensive bpos will be moved to station slots, you should stop appearing flabbergasted that you will have to move them Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6899
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Boltorano wrote: That lost income to mission runners will most likely result in more income for miners, which is something I'm completely fine with. "Mining with guns." should never have been a thing, and CCP has slowly been correcting that error.
Yeah. Seems reasonable to me. Create a "Sandbox", let people create their own professions and then remove them. Sure it's corrective. But "sandbox" it is not. sandbox means you can never change anything ever, said nobody with an ounce of sense ever
seriously is there a single time that anyone has ever used sandbox in a post in one of these threads where their post didn't amount to whining that anything could possibly change Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6902
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Entity wrote: Risk free? What? Is your brain turned off or something?
- The pos alone is worth 8 billion+ (all faction stuff) - I stand to lose a month worth of product to the tune of 20 billion if someone decides to blow it up.
I'm fine with -that- risk, but having to literally put ALL my eggs in that one easy to pop basket is completely unacceptable.
right which is why you will have to move to a station, increasing your cost and lowering your reward in exchange for the perfect safety you apparently can't do without Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6902
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kadl wrote: I can propose a simple alternative fix. Make it so that anyone who places a POCO or POS in a location vacated by a waring party would immediately become subject to the war. You cannot sneak a "neutral" third party in to reclaim a location since the war could be directed at control of that space location. Note now we are using war decs to control space in high sec.
that is not simple whatsoever and would certainly require massively reworking a lot of code
it is a more elegant fix yes but it is much less likely to be implemented Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6912
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 18:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Khoul Ay'd wrote:
++ Where are all of the ice products coming from to feed all of the coming 0.8 - 1.0 poses that will go up. CCP, you do remember that you nerfed ice mining for the email operators a few expansions ago, right?
Dude, you're fine. Do what you did to customs offices. Go around and take all the moons because there's no restriction on doing so and then sell them. They just removed the only thing stopping overwhelming numbers from owning every highsec moon. what the **** would we or anyone do with every highsec moon Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6912
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 18:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Weaselior wrote: what the **** would we or anyone do with every highsec moon
**** people off by holding them in an unassailably large alliance... get a small tower for 60m, offline it. Costs you nothing and pisses anyone who wants it off. I thought that's what you guys specialize in then watch as all of them get blown up left and right because an offline small is trivial to afk kill
we'd be trolling ourselves more than anyone else Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6923
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 18:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
theman428 wrote:sorry using your quote here but tippia not all of it is good... this will utterly destroy the ability to make supers and titans. people will have to spend months of time copying BPOs to make these ships since they cannot be produced in a station or in high sec... so tell me how thats good for the economy. yeah no
i make supers and titans and i am not at all complaining about these changes, because i spent the thirty seconds to puzzle out how I adjust given these new systems
if you can't figure it out you probably shouldn't be building supercaps in the first place Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6923
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 18:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Adellle Nadair wrote:
You are an edge case variant. And are in no way representative of the majority that this change effects.
i am responding to a guy saying it screws up supercap production which is simply obviously wrong
why you're wrong is just obvious on its face because tons of highsec systems have research and factories in the same system so that effort barrier is flying from one station to another like once a week, hardly some actual effort barrier Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6928
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 19:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Amber Solaire wrote:theman428 wrote:Amber Solaire wrote:Correct me if I`m wrong
If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production, thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?
no it will just make it more expensive for those seeking slots More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players) That is not any improvement at all less people doing it = profits skyrocket = people start doing it Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6964
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 13:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Sizeof Void wrote: CCP has repeatedly tried, and failed, to entice high-sec players to take more risks and engage in PVP. But, the highest priority of high-sec players has always been "safety" - this is why they stay in high-sec. No reason to expect this player behavior to change.
I've been watching a similar safety-vs-efficiency trade-off with high-sec mining. Retrievers/Mackinaws and Covetors/Hulks are still the most commonly used mining ships, but Procurer/Skiff usage has definitely been on a steady rise, as ganking continues to spread.
Sadly you are quite right and these players will be the first to flock over SC once it's out. boy ccp better get its act together in the next decade Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6964
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 14:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
you're all idiots if you think that the pos congestion fees are going to be anything but zero until you do something like try to stuff an alliance's worth of battleship production into a small pos with a single assembly array
wait to start wigging the **** out until you see the cost devblog Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6968
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 14:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
why is this stupid t2 bpo discussion here
these changes are entirely irrelevant unless the copy time for a t2 bpo is significantly lower than the current build time; even if it is slightly faster unless there's queueing coming in another devblog the slightly increased potential supply will be counteracted by the increased need to install new jobs, leaving the thing idle Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6972
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 15:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Stuff
T2 BPOs should have been removed from the game from the get go. If they are doing such massive changes to industry and STILL leave them in the game, that is wrong. They are legacy items of an age gone by. The production facts are irrelevant. The same investment arguements were made back then as well and they make little difference today. People invest billions into play styles across all of Eve and when **** hits the fan and major changes happen everyone that wanted the change is always HTFU, Well that same argument applies here. T2 BPOs should be removed from the game and investors should HTFU. who cares take your unrelated whining to some other thread Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6972
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 15:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mila Joevovich wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Xe'Cara'eos wrote:can we turn off the new interface and use the old one that we all know and love/hate? No, but we may be able to offer some counselling Welcome to EVE....where if you don't like it, not only will we tell you kiss our collective arses....we'll even throw in a smarmy developer comment at no charge Seriously. this does nothing but reinforce the perception that you aren't listening and could not care less about any input from the player base...of course, that assumes you had any concern in the first place. You know what they say about ssumptions....ooopps, guess I better put on my donkey ears. anyone who liked the old interface needs the counseling for re-integration into society Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6972
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 16:13:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mila Joevovich wrote:Because, how you think is all that matters.....oh wait, you're a goon....I'm so sorry to question you....we're not worthy i say that not as a goon but a functional human being and all other functional human beings, including the ones that spend all their time trying to kill us, agree with me
put a stake through that ui's heart before its buried just to be sure Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6972
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 16:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Starbases will have reduced tax cost next to NPC station, and mobile labs / assembly array will have more efficient ME / PE lines.
What does that mean for assembly arrays: they are more efficient (i.e. less minerals) or just faster? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6976
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 16:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: How do you know, unless someone on the CSM or CCP told you? Why don't you give us the precise information, since you already know it and are making market moves to maximize profit?
ahahahahahahahahahahaha
good one dinny Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6980
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 18:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
Never change Dinsdale, never change. <3
I will change when you do. I was looking at one of the Weasel's comments that indicated he already knew about the changes, and clicked on Yitterbum's instead. i'm quite sure i already knew about the changes when i posted in the thread explaining the changes
i read the devblogs before commenting, you see Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6980
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 18:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY. the reason to put cost scaling on a pos is because otherwise i would replace the eight component assembly arrays on my pos with a single one because slots are now infinite
so you make it so that it's basically free if i install ten jobs but ramps up after that, if it's done right having two assembly arrays will mean that i can install basically 20 free jobs, etc etc
like seriously people use some brains here Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6980
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 19:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
Daenika wrote:TigerXtrm wrote:Risk vs Reward has always been the backbone of EVE gameplay (and any other MMO in existance). The safer you are trying to be, the less rewarding your activities will be. The more risk you take, the higher your rewards will be. There is nothing wrong with that and the current changes are all good in my book.
Nullsec isn't an endgame, but it certainly is one of the most rewarding areas of the game. It is up to the player if they want to risk reaping those rewards or not. I live in high sec, enjoy being in high-sec. But I reap the rewards of null-sec on an almost daily basis because I dare to take the risk. If Risk vs. Reward were valid, WH would be the most profitable and effective area of EVE. Most of nullsec is super-safe blue. its funny how people who can't cut it in 0.0 are always so convinced its so safe and easy Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6980
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 19:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
Killian Redbeard wrote: Why change the POS modules to have infinite number like the NPC stations? The Arrays have a set powergrid and CPU usage on the Tower. These should not be able to run infinite jobs even at scaling costs.
because you're abolishing the entire concept of slots so you have the same system everywhere instead of a stupid and archaic system on pos Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6980
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 19:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote: You are also working on speculation. My concerns are completely justified. Stop being a pandering troll. Every post you have made has been nonstop white knighting all the changes that have been brought up, without even any seeming glimpse of concern for the community or the larger game at all. We have zero idea about how they are doing the scaling, because they haven't posted it yet. If I have to pay a base 1k install +333isk/hour fee at a POS that then scales up from there, then I no longer have any reason to use a POS at all. If YOU used your brain instead of living in some small utopia, you would see that the only base cost established in the game is the one I just mentioned. Furthermore, the way that the devs have presented their seeming hatred for POS production and industry based on the changes they have presented, it would seem to me that my fears are not ungrounded.
my speculation is based on incredibly solid incredibly simple inferences while yours is based on complete crazy
if you actually think that 1k install +333 isk /hour (which, assuming that you installed ten jobs a day (a crazy number) and used the pos nonstop and used ten slots per build character, you would have a total tax of 5.3m per build character per month, or "like an eighth of normal fuel price variation per month" is enough that you'd have no reason to use a pos, you're nuts
if that is enough to make you flee a manufacturing cost you're so bad at industry that your opinion should not be considered one bit in this discussion Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6980
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 19:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
i have an idea about how they're doing the scaling: the way that is incredibly obvious and makes sense instead of wigging out that CLEARLY THE DEVS HATE POS SO ITS GOING TO BE AS BAD AS POSSIBLE Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6981
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 20:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ming The Merciless wrote: Your assuming you can find a station that has a corp office slot free in a system even in the same region you are in. For example there are only 32 stations out of 432 stations in the Metropolis region that even have copy/ME/PE research slots. Many of them close to full and will be full when and if this change goes thru as planned.
you'd have to have quite a lot of research going on to fill up infinite slots Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6982
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 20:43:00 -
[46] - Quote
Ming The Merciless wrote:Weaselior wrote:Ming The Merciless wrote: Your assuming you can find a station that has a corp office slot free in a system even in the same region you are in. For example there are only 32 stations out of 432 stations in the Metropolis region that even have copy/ME/PE research slots. Many of them close to full and will be full when and if this change goes thru as planned.
you'd have to have quite a lot of research going on to fill up infinite slots Do you maybe not know how highsec research POS's work? You have to rent an office(of which they are limited - only 24 in each NPC station) and have a moon/POS setup. If I didn't have a POS and were only going to research blueprints in a station(that had the slots) you still have to own a corp office to store the blueprints in(so you can share them with your corp). You might not get grok that part because out in sov null you already own all your outposts and approve who can rent there and if you need the slots you just kick people out. Maybe working like a highsec indy corp/team isn't something you do a lot of. they work this way because you currently need an office to use a research pos because a research pos is the only way to get research done, and you need the office to do it safely
post-patch you don't need to have research corps doing all research because it is possible again for individuals to research, so 95% of research corps are obsolete and the ones that want to be a research corp and use a pos no longer need an office Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6982
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 20:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
basically research corps are a thing to get around a current problem that is being removed and will no longer be needed so who gives a damn, you want to securely research you just do the research on your alt Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6982
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 20:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jingo Aulmais wrote:Querns wrote:Jingo Aulmais wrote:Common guys! Don't lie to us and don't lie to yourself! All you want is JUST MAKE US TO BUY PLEX FOR REAL MONEY! Thats all. Just say it fair!
You want to make ships UNIQUE! When player fear to lose his ship! PLEX are already purchased with real money. Yes they want make us use this sh..t mush more! what part of this makes you need to purchase plex for irl dollars
also you know that you purchasing plex for irl dollars just means you're paying for my subscription instead of me, not extra money for ccp right Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6982
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 20:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
the situations where you need to let your corpmates copy your bpo but won't let them touch it are so few and far between that there will not actually be competition for research offices
people just haven't realized that you don't need research corporations anymore: individuals will do their own research and industrial corps will lock their bpos in factories for building Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6982
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 21:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
trust me our problem with office limits is far worse than yours, we would happily agree to infinite offices for all stations and outposts Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6982
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 23:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:I will just leave this here... im just going to make a small suggestion that actually editing and hiding ccp dev posts may be flying a bit too close to the sun Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6989
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 18:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
i look forward to crushing all of the ~industrialists~ who are unable to adapt to even small changes
the weaselior division of Goonswarm Incorporated will soon be dominating all of your old markets Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6989
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 19:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
Firvain wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Oxide Ammar wrote:CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ? What is being handed to them that isn't being handed out everywhere else? This i would like to know too. Even though i am in goonswarm, i still do production in highsec aswel, and i am really not too fussed about these changes so far. hell both you and i lose out way more on this pos safety thing than any of this rabble Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6989
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 20:08:00 -
[54] - Quote
Oxide Ammar wrote:We must be pushed a button or something to bring part of goon forum warriors out to defend these changes....same old ****. you're remarkably poor at defending your meager ideas
the goonswarm economic warfare cabal, the foremost authority on on Eve: Online economics and gameplay has naturally been in this thread from the beginning, dispensing our wise advice and chastising people who say foolish things Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6990
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 22:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote:Quote:'Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements (minus some protected solar systems, like Jita or new player starting systems of course).' This will cause a possible land rush to get to systems by people who did not grind for faction standings in the past.I would like to suggest to CCP for a transition period to mitigate the two issues.- Give the capsuleers that put in the effort to grind faction standings a timeframe of a few weeks to setup pos based on their faction standing in those faction systems, 8.0+ standing for 8.0 systems, 9.0+ for 9.0 systems and 10.0 for 10.0 systems. - Then after the transition periode allow everybody to setup their pos anywhere in hisec. This will be fair to the both group of players (with and with the faction standings) and mitigate the land rush. Also incase one day hisec is full of inactive unfueled pos, maybe allow them to be shot at by anyone without concord interference.
Nonsense. You've already reserved land in half of highsec and have had that for years as your reward. You've gotten more than enough advantage from your corp standings.
It is a sad day when we have people arguing that when new space is opened up newbies should be barred until the older and wealthier players have taken all of the desirable portions. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6990
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 22:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
Eodp Ellecon wrote:While we're addressing all things in building can we bring consistency to the building skills.
Frigate Construction V allows assault frigates (Ishkur) and dictors (Eris) Cruiser Construction IV allows assault cruisers (Ishtar and Demios) Cruiser Construction V allows Heavy Dictors (Phobos) and Command Ships.
The tiericide path would put assault frigates in Frigate Construction IV. Leaving T2 Dessy ships in level V.
also, make something require battleship construction V and something require industrial construction v (like jump freighters!) Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6991
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 22:56:00 -
[57] - Quote
Minerva Arbosa wrote: Guessing your coalition won't mind offering a good number of free systems for space in nullsec then for use of the stations that will become vastly more valuable right?
I just hope CCP reads most of these posts and realizes, not all of this patch is a good thing. A decent amount of this patch could be tiercide for industrialists.
Our rental rates aren't free, but they're so reasonable that they're the next best thing. Contact a PBLRD recruiter today! Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6991
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 23:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
Kaius Fero wrote:And your decade of carebearing in Deklein was intrerupted by... who? Most probably by Larry Forever ... And by the way, you dudes knew nothing about the changes regarding the POS anchoring in hi sec, right? Just 3 weeks ago was a big rush to drop tons of POS in some hi sec systems, all of them are offline and owned by a one man corp. I'm sure this is just pure coincidence. we continue to pay sov bills and defend our space every day rather than sit on the laurels of having a guy who ground standings once sit in the corp which is how we maintain our control of deklein
if someone knew about these changes ahead of time then they would certainly not spend the time squatting moons that are soon to become in significantly lower demand because industry pos are getting nerfed and better space is opening up
come, use that lump of porridge between your ears Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6991
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 00:01:00 -
[59] - Quote
Althanaslas Imhari wrote: That was not necessarily my point. My point was about the devaluation of the time spent on the grind. More towers and more labs means good things for the economy, I agree wholeheartedly. The way this change seems , to use an example, would be say a kickstarter where the original investors get the same product that is later given away for free. That's life, yes, but it is certainly going to upset the people who invested.
this is akin to how i paid like a thousand dollars for my computer three years ago and i could build a better one for $500 now
sure i spent $500 more but i got the computer three years ago Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6999
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 13:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote: Sure, but how would you feel if you bought the computer last month for $1,000 and the company announced yesterday that the price was now $500, for a better model?
Would you still feel that you got full value for your $1,000?
There are quite a few newer players who have been painfully doing the standings grind, and have not yet been able to benefit substantially from it.
i would say that it had been on sale for ten years at $1,000 and a price cut and better products is an unalloyed good thing so if i can't return it i shouldn't want everyone else to be worse off just because i am
any player who did the standings grind has their standings character which retains significant value and have lost nothing
Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6999
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 13:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
Kaius Fero wrote: Is really touching and sad story, I feel you. You had to pay tenbux, then work hard by mining the moons, defend the most safest space in eve universe so Larry and those nasty npc rats will not take it over.... you dudes seriously deserve a medal or more. Now I'm happy that I choose to stay in hi sec where every gate is camped by gankers, Jita is burning, cosmos missions are fun etc.
it is "the most safest space in eve universe" because we put in constant effort to keep it that way
standing alone deklein is not particularly secure compared to more defensible regions, it's just we own it and we have fought our way to the top
Kaius Fero wrote: Now this is interesting. Is there a new dev blog announcing that they will open new space this summer? Really? Link pls!
its this one you idiot
moons in .8 to 1.0 space are getting opened up for the first time as announced in this devblog
did you even read it Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7000
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 14:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Dinsdale, if you want to blame someone for the state of industry, look no further than CCP. They set the rules, not "nulsec cartels". You want cheaper T2? You could for example lobby the CSM and CCP for moon mining in hisec. The removal of POS anchoring restrictions in .8 and higher systems is the first step. They might actually think about it now. you haven't plumbed the depths of dinsdale's insanity
dinsdale believes everything CCP does comes directly from orders from the nullsec cartels so saying "blame ccp not nullsec cartels" just throws an error in his brain Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7001
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 15:10:00 -
[63] - Quote
Shamus en Divalone wrote:Dear Dev,
Will the POS arrays be getting a balance of sorts? For instance will the 1.1 materials modifier (extra materials) be removed from Advanced ship arrays? this is a good point and should probably happen don't know why anyone ever thought that mineral modifier was a good idea Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7001
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 15:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Soldarius wrote: You can't possibly be that ignorant about import/export costs. Do you have any idea how much it costs to move that many (or any realistic amount) of DCIIs from nulsec to hisec?
I do. It's pointless building them there right now. The local markets are too small for high volume. What's interesting in this discussion, however, is the left wing thinking: This industry is struggling so in order to even the playing field we're going to impose a tax on those that are a success. That's basically what you're suggesting here. I see this all the time in government policies. It's how you wreck industries they were once thriving and impose higher costs on consumers. left wing economic thinking is demonstrably empirically superior to right-wing thinking though you are clearly a poor economic thinker of any stripe
here, the "government intervention" is an explicit attempt to rebalance industry, not "even the playing field" and not to raise revenue through taxes
the industry in a game like this is self-regulating and we do not care about imposing higher costs on consumers because it's a game and those higher costs may be beneficial to the game Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7001
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 15:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: The idea that industry will regulate itself has been disproved many times over, in the real world, at least.
how irrelevant considering that:
1) you're using regulate in a completely different sense than i am 2) who the **** cares about the real world because i am discussing a video game Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7004
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 16:49:00 -
[66] - Quote
Kaius Fero wrote: O'really? Wonder why you never move to another regions. I'm sure is not because you're space is surrounded by pets.. maybe you guys are lazy, right?
we move into hostile regions all the time and throw shitlords out on their ass its sort of what we do for fun Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7008
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 19:45:00 -
[67] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote: How does reimbursing all players for the standings grind make anyone "worse off"? Whether you are an older player or a newer player, a reimbursement of some sort would benefit everyone. Just as when the learning skills were removed from the game - everyone got back the invested SP, regardless of how much each individual player benefited from having those skills trained up for years, or only days. No one lost; everyone won.
And, I am curious as to what "significant value" the standings grind will still have for the average high-sec industrialist player. I think that this is the reason why these players are a bit upset about this particular change - they do not perceive the value of which you spoke. I know that you know quite a bit about the economics side of the game, so can you please list the remaining value in high faction standings?
high faction standings are necessary for any trader for cutting broker fees and taxes in jita (or their preferred station) as those fees eat up huge parts of their margin
since bots, once caught, can't be sold standings characters for sale are now rare and they're extremely valuable because there's a lot more traders who want a standings character but don't want to grind than there are characters for sale Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7010
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 20:31:00 -
[68] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote: Yea, noone ever bought the participation of a high standing character in his corp to deploy a pos, no interaction or gameplay to find here folks, move along.
hiring someone to sit in a corp for seven days is not gameplay, it is a workaround for a terrible system
just because people have found ways around terrible systems is no reason to keep them in existence Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7025
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 14:49:00 -
[69] - Quote
Davethethird wrote: If you haven't already, please could you consider adding a "Deliver All Automatically" button to inventions etc. I'm not really interested in knowing how many jobs have failed or succeeded (If I want to know that I could choose to deliver manually) this is an intensive waste of time to have me clicking the deliver button 11 times per toon I am running invention jobs with etc. Please sort that out.
Hold down shift, click the first and the last one (so you select all of them) then hit deliver. Just keep tapping enter until the failed/succeeded windows stop popping up.
If you run your own personal altcorp you can install for corp and deliver all of your alt jobs at once using this method. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7026
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 14:35:00 -
[70] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote: Are you going to dispute that moon mining, gas harvesting, drug manufacturing, ore mining (when it happens), exploration, ratting, plexing, salvaging and npc missions are massively and overwhelmingly more profitable in nullsec?
yes, no (no market), no (no market), no (highends are insanely depressed due to the way grav anoms are set up so mining in null is not significantly more profitable), somewhat, yes, yes, no, no (sov null has no npc missions)
this is of course ignoring the risk, the ease of disrupting these activities, and the costs of conquering and maintaining the space
Urziel99 wrote: Are you also going to dispute that in order to be "massively and overwhelmingly profitable" in S&I that I have to put orders of magnitude more isk on the table than any of those activities in nullsec?
you have to put orders of magnitude more isk on the table, but get virtually zero risk and incredibly low requirement to log in
industry is a high-capital low-effort activity and so naturally it requires much more capital than low-capital high-effort activities
any good industrialist would know that effort is a resource so i'm guessing you're not one
edit: oh for moon mining and reactions you have to put way more isk on the table (and it is actually at risk) than some highsec industrialist Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7026
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 14:52:00 -
[71] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Are you going to dispute that only a very small minority cares about S&I in 00 sec? For those, a buff without this ridiculous stuff happening around High sec S&I would have been enough. a very small minority of people in 0.0 care about industry because industry is impractical in 0.0 so those people get bored and leave
are you going to dispute that people receiving cancer treatment often die, cancer treatment kills people stop doing it Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7026
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 14:59:00 -
[72] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Interesting to see the different views on this but I stand by my point which your view somewhat backs up. Hisec should (in my opinion) be where the bulk of S&I takes place due to that stability (I won't say safety because I disagree there), nullsec should be the major resource areas, but S&I should suffer due to the inherent instability of the area.
i don't care about ~reality~ arguments in a video game when they're not grounded in good game design and every argument that is made that is about "well reality says..." with no discussion of why that is good game design and balance is junk.
highsec will continue to have a large quantity of industry because it's stable and many industrialists are risk-averse. however those willing to move to null will reap increased rewards for their massively increased risk and increased expenses.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: I very much doubt that the % profit on manufacturing in hisec is higher than the % profit on running combat anoms etc in null when comparing the amount of isk in play in the transaction (goods for the S&I player, ship for the anom runner).
i very much doubt that this lump of titanium has as much citrus as this lemon
you keep trying to compare radically different methods of making isk: industry is a high-capital low-effort way to make isk through small returns on large sums that scales up. anoming is a low-capital high-effort way to make isk through large returns on small initial sums that does not scale up
you keep trying to compare things that are not at all alike and ignoring why they're different. industry is how you become rich because of compound interest. mining and anoming are how you build up initial sums of money because the return, while capped in absolute terms, is much higher in percentage terms when you're poor
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: As you say effort is a resource, and profit is the result of selling something at a higher value than the effort required to produce it. If nullsec folks want more of the S&I profit that is sooo vast in hisec then why don't they train an alt to run the S&I side of things there and turn their own raw materials into huge profits without any middle men?
they do. because industry is so broken in 0.0 with the current model, they put that alt in highsec even if they'd rather do industry in null. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 16:43:00 -
[73] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: I still don't see why nullsec industry should be buffed. Unlimited slots on pos will already give the stations in null a massive bonus, and just how risky is it to manufacture stuff deep in goon space? Or any other large sov alliance? It must be pretty safe there for you to be able to offer out systems to rent otherwise nobody would rent there for fear of losing their investment.
The very basic problem with this post: transport isn't free. The bigger one: nobody does any of this industry, so nobody is actually placing stuff at risk because it's a big risk, big pain in the ass, for zero benefit. It's irrelevant to renting: renters are at risk when they rat or mine but they earn enough to make that risk worth it.
Weaselior wrote: If hisec industry is perceived as risk free and taking so much profit from nullsec then why not gank the afk freighters that are feeding the cycle you describe for risk free industry. The vibrant gameplay you describe as going to nullsec will be at the expense of the other areas. Will you ever transport goods into and out of null when you can just produce and sell them in situ? The gameplay comes from the need to move things around, to gather resources from disparate sources, from having to either defend your resources in null or outperform your competitors in hisec.allowing everything to be done better in null will destroy that dynamic. The large alliances in null will simply get even more rich and even more insular. Will you even bother with burn Jita when you can outperform the trade hubs locally?
The industrial zones you describe in null will kill hisec dead. How could hisec ever compete with nullsec buffed industrial zones? Destroying the dynamic between the security sectiors in this way can only be harmful to the game.
transport isn't free
and we do gank afk freighters, we have an entire organization dedicated to it
we will continue to rely on highsec: it supplies all of the lowends, it is necessary as a trade hub for products that are regional (moongoo, invention stuff, etc), it supplies all datacores, hell most of what we need is supplied by highsec or will be traded there. hordes of wretched pubbies will continue to mine veldspar, and then compress it for export. hordes of wretched pubbies will run missions for lp, for items they will sell to us in jita
all of those things will continue to be produced and exported by highsec, even if all highsec industry becomes wrecked (which it will not, once again transport isn't free, at least once you're not in highsec and can't pay pubbies tiny amounts to move things at the pubbie's own risk) Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 16:50:00 -
[74] - Quote
highsec should not be more profitable than null, it should have activities that are at a different place on the risk/reward/effort spectrum
afk mining, afk mission running, trade hub .01isking, all of these things are at a very different point on the risk/reward/effort spectrum and are more 'profitable' than many nullsec activities once you factor in effort (which highseccers never do)
every time you hear someone bleat "but people can gank me in highsec and its harder to gank you in null" they're always, always, always ignoring effort. once you factor in effort the argument evaporates like a fart in the wind. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 16:52:00 -
[75] - Quote
in today's news, when you put in the years-long effort to secure and defend a region, pay upkeep, run defense fleets, and you're at the keyboard when you are mining you get ganked less than some idiot afk mining in a retriever with a thirty minute egg timer
when you work out the profit per effort-time, the idiot in the afk retriever has earned massively more for each second of effort he's put in
it is simply that highseccers refuse to do this math that causes bad posts Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 17:00:00 -
[76] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: So factoring in effort...boosting S&I in nullsec will reduce the effort involved as transport (which as you say isn't free) suddenly becomes a whole lot simpler, cheaper and...less effort. So more reward for less effort. Seems somewhat wrong don't you think?
no and i don't think you really "get" how balance works
nullsec got no reward for its massive additional effort. now, effort is being curbed some and reward is being increased some. that is exactly as it should be, because the balance was off before
it was unbalanced before, it is being balanced. you seem to be puzzled by how balance works. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 17:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: I understand balance perfectly well, two sides in equilibrium upon a fulcrum...kind of like hisec and nullsec with losec as the fulcrum. Your argument that null should be better for everything allows for absolutely no balance. I'm not arguing that null should not be viable for S&I, I am however arguing and will continue to argue that it should absolutely not be better at everything in the interest of balance and balanced gameplay.
you do not understand balance
you asked "well effort is going down and reward is going up, isn't that a problem": it is obviously not, because before effort was way out of line with reward, and they needed to be adjusted. that's what balancing is. you said a dumb, you were wrong, and now you are trying to discuss something else to avoid admitting you were wrong
highsec has its place: the low-effort low-risk zone where you can earn the largest rewards for low-effort/low-risk activities. you don't want things balanced: you want highsec to have an absolute advantage in every respect (absolute profitability, effort, and risk), and currently highsec industry hits all three.
highsec has had an unjustifiable absolute advantage. it's important to remember that highsec is where the less adept, less adventurous players are and therefore should absolutely be the kiddy zone, but that's not relevant for this discussion: even were the highsec player even close to the equal of the nullsec player, there would be an absolute imbalance
that imbalance is being fixed. people who profited from that imbalance are whining up a storm, just like every single other balance fix ever. nano-nos-domi able to solo ten arbitrary ships? obviously imbalanced, but still got people whining up a storm. titans able to one-shot an entire grid of ships with absolutely no risk whatsoever? obviously unbalanced, but people still whined up a storm when fixed
highsec industry better in every way whatsoever than null? obviously unbalanced, but people are currently whining up a storm. water is wet, fire hot.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Clearly they are not 'self-evidently' correct otherwise people would not question them. Please explain clearly how it is blindingly correct that one section of the game should have every advantage at the expense of every other area? Also explain how this is balanced whilst you do so.
of course they're self-evidently correct, it is merely people with a vested interest in believing untruths that dispute them, or fools.
it's hard to make a man understand something when his livelihood depends on him not understanding it. it's also hard to make a man who doesn't understand math understand that 4^2=16, even though that is also self-evidently correct. that our arguments stand unrebutted except by this sort of nonsense despite so many people with a vested interest in trying to disprove them merely confirms our correctness
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: If those who play the game as hisec S&I folks are so inferior...why the complaints that they make so much money by doing what they do better than others?
because the game is unbalanced. i see you're finally starting to get it: inferior players, taking less risk, and putting in less effort out-earning better players taking greater risks and putting in greater effort is an obvious problem. but again, we can even pretend that highseccers are equal to nullsecers and it's still a problem! Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 17:32:00 -
[78] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: As for inferior players, well, no doubt goons have won Eve. But to suggest that people choose morality over the goon way is hardly making one "inferior" over the other.
in eve cowardice and laziness are always the preconditions for whatever some pubbie is claiming is "morality" that day Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 17:34:00 -
[79] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dramaticus wrote:The balance is that there is risk in null-sec while there is none in high-sec. risk is not the be all and end all. It is simply something requiring effort to manage (or the acceptance of the losses with respect to the expected gains). Deep inside goon territory just how much risk is there in reality? You will be able to cover the gates into systems and have advance warning of intruders. No intruders? Then move your goods around with impunity.
oh lookie here:
Weaselior wrote:highsec should not be more profitable than null, it should have activities that are at a different place on the risk/reward/effort spectrum
afk mining, afk mission running, trade hub .01isking, all of these things are at a very different point on the risk/reward/effort spectrum and are more 'profitable' than many nullsec activities once you factor in effort (which highseccers never do)
every time you hear someone bleat "but people can gank me in highsec and its harder to gank you in null" they're always, always, always ignoring effort. once you factor in effort the argument evaporates like a fart in the wind.
Weaselior wrote:in today's news, when you put in the years-long effort to secure and defend a region, pay upkeep, run defense fleets, and you're at the keyboard when you are mining you get ganked less than some idiot afk mining in a retriever with a thirty minute egg timer
when you work out the profit per effort-time, the idiot in the afk retriever has earned massively more for each second of effort he's put in
it is simply that highseccers refuse to do this math that causes bad posts
Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 17:38:00 -
[80] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Am I expected to believe that fuel for your control towers costs you a fortune? Surely with the highest output of PI resources and the ice fields you can lock down and mine out this shouldn't be a problem? When you have unlimited slots per station you will also have far fewer stations to defend if you choose so.
i also can't pass up the opportunity to quote a highsec pubbie unironically arguing "the things i mine myself are free" Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 20:10:00 -
[81] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Very interesting numbers. And now we level the game on the 00 sec numbers where player were and still are too lazy to build proper outposts? Or where players failed to demand better stations to make industry more worthwhile a long time ago? the standard factory station in highsec is a 50 slot 50% refinery and there are like eight per system in most factory systems in highsec
that is literally impossible to build in nullsec (you can get 50 slots in a refinery OR 50% refines), and you are limited to one station per system
don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time
edit: apparently not:
Rivr Luzade wrote: Right, you naturally use the JF. Unless you have set up a JB specifically for such a purpose, which is what I would do for a couple of systems to make mining this ice easier.
you would never ever use the jump bridge and freighter instead of a jump freighter because it's slower and much more vulnerable
freighters do not go through jump bridges in nullsec except to get into jammed systems. the 'cant cut it in 0.0 crew' has proven why yet again Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 21:06:00 -
[82] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Rain6637 wrote:because there's like, 2 people working on mechanics changes It's been how many years now that the inferiority of 00 sec outposts is known? But you are right ... CCP had to add incursions, NEX, Captains Quarters, more NEX, ship skins, and so on before fixing that. why do you think we've been bitching about it for years Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 21:43:00 -
[83] - Quote
The Alienator wrote:Stop eliminating player choice, Mmmkay? It's bad. your entire post can be summarized as "you can't have rewards in nullsec, because I am in highsec!"
a player now who wishes to do industry must be in highsec. post-patch, a player faces a choice with tradeoffs, and can be in either null or highsec
you are whining up a storm over this new choice and trying to paint it as a choice elimination. it's not, you're just whining because highsec industry is no longer better in every way than 0.0 Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 21:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
Aeonidis wrote: CCP you can smack me with the nerf bat till I'm stupid(or just being stupid) and put a carrot the size of god in null and I still wont play there. I'll just spend less time in your game.
carrots don't force you to do anything, besides whine on forums, and ccp clearly doesn't need to smack you with anything Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 22:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
Banko Mato wrote:I have the feeling, this turns into a "grr null" vs. "grr hisec" trench warfare... Although i am heavily invested in highsec industry around T2 production, i really welcome the basic ideas behind the proposed changes (and unfortunately agree with a good portion of the goony statements). But (and that's a freakin huge BUT) on the other hand, until CCP provides as actual hard numbers, i keep being afraid, because this has a damn big potential on backfiring in epic ways if implemented poorly...
Therefore i dearly hope, that the next blogs on the list get out soon (without the Gäó), so we can have a knowledgable discussion instead of the bitching about why a certain area of space is inferior/superior/poorer/lamer/safer/whatsoeva
So please CCP, throw out more information! yeah i think we can all agree on MAKE WITH THE REST OF THE BLOGS AAAUGH Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7027
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 22:13:00 -
[86] - Quote
the worst part is the next blog is the UI one which is likely to have the least info about balance changes and more be bizwoops and whizgigs that do not affect the bottom line :argh: Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7034
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 14:23:00 -
[87] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these? There's very few of any slots in null because each region was seeded with only three stations, and you're limited to one station per system.
The only outpost with any number of research lines is the caldari, which was disdained because for 30b you got less slots than you could fit on a pos or two, and it has a terrible station model for docking so it's disliked. As a result most places are heavily minmatar/amarr with only a few caldari thrown in here and there for variety. For a long time outpost upgrades were stupidly expensive so although an upgraded caldari station is great, it would have cost 60-150b back in The Day (when alliances were also poorer) making it a hilariously dumb idea. As a result for years nobody dropped them, more may get dropped now but so many systems have a different outpost now and can never have a second.
When it comes to POS research: you could do it in 0.0, but why bother when you could just do it nearly as well in highsec? And when it comes to manufacturing in a pos: not worth the effort: you had to import all the materials from highsec (which are bulkier than the finished product) so you might as well just build it in empire and import the finished product. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7034
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 14:49:00 -
[88] - Quote
Soldarius wrote: How will this new system interact with CSAAs? Can someone put 10 titans in build for only a modest increase in cost? CCP really needs to be on the ball with this change and make sure no fringe cases slip through the cracks.
Currently it is possible to put two CSAAs on the same tower. It is generally thought to be a completely idiotic idea and every titan builder who is not an incorrigible moron will have one CSAA per tower.
The same "exactly how many eggs do you want to stuff in that basket" issue will probably be the same: wouldn't you rather have ten pos with one titan each than one pos with ten titans?
Titan building goes sequentially because of components: you use all your component bpos at once to build the components for a titan as fast as possible, then install that titan, then move on to the next. There's no extra effort to do it at a second pos instead of reusing your original pos. Your component build speed determines how many towers you need (divide titan hull time build by component build time, add one: you need that many towers to hit your maximum rate of production with no doubling-up of titans in any pos). Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7034
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 14:51:00 -
[89] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Thanks for the replies, so POS were a viable option but at cost and risk of destruction. Isn't that the risk/reward balance in action though? I thought POS's had bonuses in null compared to lo (and obviously you can't even use many of the modules in high).
In terms of renting moons I assume this is via a POS located at the moon. I'm guessing the renting systems are pretty deep inside whichever null alliance owns them to be safe? POS in nullsec get a fuel consumption bonus and can anchor certain mods (moon mining, reactors) that you can't anchor in highsec. None of those 0.0-only modules are useful for research/industry (aside from moon mining and reacting, the one current 0.0 industry). Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7034
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 15:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:Oh and another thing for the whiney players in this thread. Cost does not determine price. You just just dropped back about 200 years in terms of economics if you think this. cost of inputs is the most significant factor in the price of most manufactured eve items most of the time Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 15:46:00 -
[91] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: Price is determined by supply (i.e. costs--marginal costs to be specific) and demand. No demand, no price to take the extreme example irrespective of costs.
i repeat: cost of inputs is the most significant factor in the price of most manufactured eve items most of the time
what you are telling me is what I already know: that there are very rare edge cases where this is not the case (hence the "most items" and "most of the time"). nonthless what I said is correct, and what you said ("Cost does not determine price.") is technically true but extremely misleading unless you understand how limited the statement's applicability is Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 16:39:00 -
[92] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: It is significant to an industry player because it is the part they feel they have control over and can make spreadsheets for. But demand is still significant.
demand is a minor factor that in no way affects prices to anything approaching the magnitude that costs does for manufactured goods in virtually all cases
you are trying to make a bad nitpicky argument: you are technically correct but your approach to the subject is completely wrong because you can't shut up about an incredibly minor factor while poo-poohing the most significant factor
when it comes to manufactured goods demand is irrelevant in most situations except to the effect that it has a slight effect on the margin over production cost you typically see in the market (lower demand generally means higher margin because you're stuck trying to sell longer, but sometimes if demand is so low it's negative as people try to dump their useless items at any price)
this effect is incredibly minor in most cases and not worth discussing most of the time and is several orders of magnitude less relevant than you keep implying it is
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: No not even for manufactured items. See my previous post. Demand is still a factor...change that, and leave costs alone and it can have a significant impact on any given market. For example, did the rebalancing of guns help or hurt the rail guns market?
impact yes, significant no (except in edge cases like where an item has been suddenly rebalanced and the market has not yet settled down - an effect that is strictly temporary as demand can jump instantly while supply takes a short period to adjust) Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 16:41:00 -
[93] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: You do realize that talking about supply and demand in terms of setting price while at the same time arguing it is all supply (i.e. costs) is rather weird, right?
look i'm glad you liked econ 101 but it doesn't even apply to the real world (nor is it intended to, it is a collection of incredibly simplistic models designed to make you understand certain concepts rather than actually be useful for anything) let alone a video game Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 16:45:00 -
[94] - Quote
manufactured items tend to stabilize around a certain small profit over cost. there are many factors that go into how large that margin is (how liquid the market is, the cost of each item, the build time, etc), and demand is one of those factors that plays into that small margin
but that small margin is a small margin over cost so we're discussing something that can alter prices about 3% as much as the cost of the actual inputs
in other words it's about two orders of magnitude less relevant than input costs, or "basically irrelevant" Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 16:52:00 -
[95] - Quote
demand essentially dictates the price of items produced at a constant supply or is a byproduct of something else (e.g. rat drops, nobody rats more if suddenly meta 2 mods double in price, and moon goo which is basically produced at a constant rate unless its so worthless nobody bothers to mine the full supply)
demand heavily impacts items that are produced in a specific proportion (moon goo again, minerals mined from cyclable 0.0 mining anoms, salvage) due to the 'bottlenecking effect' : when the demand for those items is in a proportion noticably different from the proportion they are produced in, the most in-demand items capture all of the value while the less demanded items become worthless
when it comes to manufacturing however demand is essentially irrelevant most of the time: demand will affect supply and that plays out when demand suddenly changes (forcing lower supply or higher supply and creating dramatic margin shifts until it moves) but in the absence of sudden demand shifts the market will have settled to a small profit and the price is dictated by cost
change cost, change price in a nearly 1:1 ratio permanently
change demand, you change price for a short time but it will still tend to settle back at cost+% and as soon as that short time is over demand is essentially irrelevant Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 17:03:00 -
[96] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: All models are simplistic, even in physics, when compared to reality. This is a basic tenet of the scientific method. A model that is as complex as reality is going to be useless because it would have so many variables.
yeah that doesn't justify "well chem 101 modeled atoms as billiard balls connected with sticks so it would be a violation of the scientific method to not use that to predict things"
models exist for a purpose. models can be predictive or explanatory: these are models that are intended to understand or predict the world and in some cases may be 'simplistic' (though when they deliberately simplify you are expected to know when they no longer apply: newtonian physics is a really handy model as long as you know it doesn't work below a certain scale)
that doesn't justify using a model that isn't even intended to be predictive or explanatory, and is just basically **** that was made up so you can understand a concept
you are clearly in the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" stage with econ, where you've learned enough that you think you know something but you haven't learned enough to know you don't actually know anything (which is irritatingly common with econ 101 people)
your argument is wrong, you're trying to appear smart and you're not succeeding (i both know eve's economy very well so I know when your model doesn't work, and I also took a lot more econ classes than econ 101 so I know when you're trying to apply introductory concepts that are not actually applicable to anything)
just stop
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: And yeah, it applies to video games...which is why CCP has an economist, and economists study MMO economies. They are basically huge ass simulations that they get people to pay to be part of vs. paying students or graduate students to be part of a simulation.
certain actual economic principles and models apply to a video game market in addition to the real market
econ 101 models apply to nothing Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 17:43:00 -
[97] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: Ok, let me try this....
Price is determined by the intersection of supply and demand. Your posts, and Weaselior's, pretty much all admit this.
wrong
stop trying to apply ~econ 101~ and read what I have explained to you in great detail
this stupid statement is the epitome of idiotic econ101 thinking, you do not understand the market and you do not understand that "here is a supply curve, here is a demand curve, look!" is anything but an extremely simplified model intended to teach you some really basic concepts you will need when you learn actual economics
what I have explained to you in great detail is the way the market actually functions in eve. you have gone cross-eyed and started regurgitating nonsense from your econ 101 lecture. this is obvious because at no point do your "examples" show any indication you've understood my points and have found problems with them: instead they are obvious things that my arguments already take into account.
you jumped into the thread to try to do a ~look at me im so smart~ and fell flat on your face and you're resorting to increasingly hysterical "but my Remedial Introduction To Economics 101 textbook says..." and trying to make points that at best are technically true and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion (and in actuality are generally wrong both as applied to the discussion and in the most nitpicky technical sense) Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 17:52:00 -
[98] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: I contend that based a simple model of supply and demand, this is foolish. It is foolish because it is unlikely that the demand for Nestor's has a price elasticity of 0 (perfectly price inelastic--i.e. the same number of Nestors will be bought at 100 isk/Nestor or 1 trillion isk/Nestor).
you're dumb and your model is dumb and you don't understand what you're talking about
this is the issue: you do not know anything about this "simple model": you do not understand it and so you do not know when it applies and when it does not and as someone who does know what those models are for and what those terms mean it is painful that anyone might listen to you
the impact of supply and demand will affect exactly one price here: the price of the nestor bpc (because it's a garbage ship and will be supplied by drops from the nexus chips in drone space and be unprofitable to get from the lp store)
the price of the finished product will nearly entirely be dictated by the bpc cost and the minerals cost, with incredibly minor margin fluctuations (minor to the buyer, not the producer) that represent the low demand that will mean the producer has to hold the ship longer before it sells
you should be reading what i am telling you and learning about why the "can't do calculus, make it only require algebra" model does not apply to this situation and learning about how economics is considerably more complex than supply curves and demand curves and learning the limitations of that model: eve has a very simple economy so you can easily learn these somewhat more advanced topics
instead you are going cross-eyed and getting confused and regurgitating words and concepts you have memorized but not understood and stamping your feet anytime people don't praise you. you're not even able to understand what i've said and have continually been unable to distinguish, for example, between "most" and "all" (hint: you don't disprove a 'most' statement with 'a few examples') and "irrelevant" vs "not a factor at all" Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 17:57:00 -
[99] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:No thanks, I'm done. You are just being stupid.
If it helps; you win.. this is the root cause of why you're dumb: rather than feel stupid and learn something, you refuse to learn so that you can retain feeling smart and just dismiss things you don't understand
admitting to yourself when you don't know something and figuring it out is how you actually learn things and improve Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7036
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 18:50:00 -
[100] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: Look, I'm not the one claiming that my statment about the same number of Nestors selling at 100 isk and 1 trillion isk is dumb.
My guess, you didn't even read my post entirely.
But whatever.
i ignored that statement as it was entirely irrelevant: that you thought it was relevant indicated you did not understand the discussion. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7037
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 18:56:00 -
[101] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote: Regarding manufacturing and supply in Eve, I don't disagree.
As for passing along costs...here, let me explain how I was doing invention:
this entire story is you discovering return on capital over time is different than profit per unit, and is important (this is, incidentally, why low-demand markets stabilize at higher profits per unit)
it is not relevant to our discussion on price. it is you realizing that your invention business is about earning a percentage return on your money and that a loss on a unit may be preferable to keeping the isk tied up making no money for a long period of time.
the entire story is the short period when demand changes and the market has not yet stabilized, something I've alluded to many times in my posts and you seem to have not understood. if you hold onto your units you can be assured you will sell them eventually at the new cost+%: that just might be a stupid decision because you spend so long making no return on that amount that you wind up with a lower roi than if you'd taken a loss immediately and reinvested in more profitable enterprises. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7046
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 12:53:00 -
[102] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
All Starbase Assembly arrays now have a 5% material reduction cost for all manufacturing jobs - except for the Capital Ship Array. why are you discriminating against my titans Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7046
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 12:55:00 -
[103] - Quote
also though thanks for the clarification on the in-build BPOS, that's very helpful for planning for summer Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7048
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 15:24:00 -
[104] - Quote
you should face an increase, it is absurd that costs used to be amounts of isk so small they are rounding errors even to newbies
like that's a normal and expected part of this rebalance: slot fees should matter. it'll just get passed onto the consumer. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7048
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 15:44:00 -
[105] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Right, sure. Spoken by the guy who gets an 18% discount on his mineral costs, plus has been told by the dev's that null sec station slots costs will be significantly below high sec station slot costs. Who will be able to price out any high sec competition in any market you choose. i got told whatnow?
i mean, i assume that an upgraded amarr station (which can be upgraded to 230 slots) should ramp up much slower to 14% than a highsec 50 slot station because anything else would be ridiculous, but i'm still waiting on the actual details and i may be dissapointed.
however given that it starts at zero percent, and knowing how vast highsec is and that virtually every system has a station, I'm pretty sure there's going to be plenty of low-cost slots in highsec - just not right next to jita Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7048
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 15:47:00 -
[106] - Quote
wait you're still trying to cover your hilarious mistake of complaining ccp yitterbum had insider info aren't you Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7048
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Posted - 2014.04.25 15:49:00 -
[107] - Quote
Takara Mora wrote: A better name: EVE CONTRACTION
- Obsoleting of POS research labs (mobile labs) - Obsoleting of Faction Standings - Obsoleting of Drone Interfacing V skill - T2 Drone nerfs
Have we heard about anything actually being ADDED yet? Or just many of the deeper and long term mechanics (longer training time skills, longer term achievements like Faction Standings) being made more short term / less worth while?
diV isn't obsolete you scrublord, and "longer training time skills" got a massive thing with the new need to actually train refining skills Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7049
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Posted - 2014.04.25 16:26:00 -
[108] - Quote
Kaius Fero wrote:"This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay." Go figure :| yeah, who would have thought one of the foremost authorities on Eve: Online economics and gameplay would be posting so many correct things in this thread Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7050
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 17:08:00 -
[109] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Takara Mora wrote: EVE works as a game ecosystem because it is a hybrid of multiple game types - sandbox, pve, everything in between ... it can suck in people who would never try PVP, and gradually expose them to it and even get them to try it.
I cannot put into words just how much this "try it, you will like it:" mind set absolutely drives me MAD with anger, How DARE you think that you know more than someone else, how they enjoy playing a game. because perusing the eve-o forums i find nearly every day that i know more about everything than 95% of eve players so it is a fairly safe bet i know more about what they would like than they do Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7050
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 17:17:00 -
[110] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: Ugh... the arrogance! To think that you know what I enjoy more than I know what I enjoy?
Seriously, can you not see how insane that is?
one would think it would be, but when choosing between what we would prefer to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible we must go with the latter despite our unfailing capacity and preference to believe the former Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7050
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 17:23:00 -
[111] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Because of density. There are tons of way to go around AFK cloakers, search my posts in F&ID and you'll find a list, or search for topics around removing AFK cloaking in F&ID and you find lists. I don't care about AFK cloakers because I have the means to nullify them. If you are incapable of doing that, you should consider playing another game. yes yes yes, we all know the "flee to highsec" one you've been such a fan of Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7055
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Posted - 2014.04.25 18:45:00 -
[112] - Quote
where's our cost advantage to dciis? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7067
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 03:06:00 -
[113] - Quote
Do bpos drop if they're in research? Components don't drop from in-build manufacturing jobs, so I suspect bpos will not either. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7150
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 17:08:00 -
[114] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them. oh god yes, please please please
it's the small ones (component, probably ammo, other ones like that) that badly need extra space - larger ship ones don't (and are sometimes used as larger storage hangars). Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7370
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Posted - 2014.05.12 17:01:00 -
[115] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:Can we get confirmation of the intended changes to outpost bonuses too? If they exist, I cannot find them. Perhaps in a thread like the starbase changes? cost devblog Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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