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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1199
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Posted - 2014.04.24 20:43:00 -
[1801] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:
Personally I think Gruistas should be pure missile boats and lose the drones altogether. Drone faction should be the pirate drone ships.
Well, they'd have to be switched to armour tanks, then, which'll annoy a whole load more people. We've already got one line of faction shield-missile boats, we don't really need another. The pirate/navy thing is just a label. |
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
7
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Posted - 2014.04.24 20:45:00 -
[1802] - Quote
Wow, more pages are missing again. Common people, lets pretend to be mature and composed. We are, after all, super hi-tech people from the sophisticated future. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1037
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:01:00 -
[1803] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Last Wolf wrote:
Personally I think Gruistas should be pure missile boats and lose the drones altogether. Drone faction should be the pirate drone ships.
Well, they'd have to be switched to armour tanks, then, which'll annoy a whole load more people. We've already got one line of faction shield-missile boats, we don't really need another. The pirate/navy thing is just a label.
I would argue that most Pirate ships are in a different league compared to navy ones. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
654
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:02:00 -
[1804] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:yeah but 90% webs are stupid, range webs and neuts/infinite nos on ships that cannot tank are stupid, enormous afterburner speed bonuses are stupid, and compressed drones for easier damage mitigation are stupid (also enabling drone assist is really really bad, drone assist removal when?) 90% webs are powerful, but serve to make the ship more of a target since only they can do it and skilled enemies will know to eliminate them first. The Web/Nos combo has its issues, but will still find plenty of uses. Enormous Afterburner bonus will be fun. The only way it would be better if it was on tiny armor ships. Entire volumes have been written on superdrones. Its actually a decent concept so long as it can be decently scaled to all weight classes. So the only line you dont have issue with are the yawn-more-of-the-same angels?
skilled enemies know to eliminate them first? you could use this to justify just about any ship that isn't immune to ewar. a 100,000 dps battleship? just tracking disrupt/jam/damp it lol, stop whining noobs. it's just too much vs small ships.
yeah, people use the bloodraider battleship, but the others? things can be powerful and useful and still stupid - see EAFs. they're good at ganks, not much else, because they'll die instantly or be permanently ewared out because of their ridiculous power.
fun? eh, more like broken. also, armour tanking isn't easier to hit than shield tanking.
most of what people have said about superdrones is them being dumb and not understanding it. so you're less vulnerable to smartbombs, but your drones can be messed with more easily. I don't really consider this a step up. properly bonused medium drone gila is great. wtb properly bonused medium drone ships but without the superdrone thing.
angels are pretty dull, yeah. they're like minmatar but not awful. they're kind of bland, sure, but that's a pretty weak objection next to this other stuff. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1195
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:04:00 -
[1805] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The Rules: 3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.
The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
161
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:11:00 -
[1806] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Last Wolf wrote:
Personally I think Gruistas should be pure missile boats and lose the drones altogether. Drone faction should be the pirate drone ships.
Well, they'd have to be switched to armour tanks, then, which'll annoy a whole load more people. We've already got one line of faction shield-missile boats, we don't really need another. The pirate/navy thing is just a label.
Sansha ships are shield tanked, yet the NPC's are armor.
However, I'm completely fine with a Drone Pirate missile+armor ship. Armor + missile is something we currently lack in any dedicated form outside of Typhoon (which is also fairly good and projectiles/shields/drones) and Armageddon (which is mainly drones/NOS/Nuets and can also use lasers. Warning: Sarcasm Above. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
740
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:46:00 -
[1807] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Kueyen wrote:
too much focus on missiles, not enough on drones for what has always been, and should remain, the epitome of Droneboats. Rattle was orignially 6 launchers 7 highs(maybe 8 highs, I don't remember), 8 mids 4 lows 75m3 bay/bandwith 5% rof for cruise/torps 5% shield resits. Pretty much was the Navy scorp is now is what the Rattle was for the first 5-6 years of EVE. (There wasn't a Navy Scorp back then.) Personally I think Gruistas should be pure missile boats and lose the drones altogether. Drone faction should be the pirate drone ships. That being said, I still love the proposed superdrone rattle way better than its current version. Edit: just looked it up. The rattle changed to a drone boat For Dominion at the end of 2009. So for over 6 years is was a pure missile boat. It has only been a drone boat for 4 1/2 years.
Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.
If it is going to be a missile boat, it should be good at it. Better than the navy missile ships, not a repainted navy scorpion. If it is going to remain a hybrid with an increase in missile power, it should not degrade the drone side. Either is good if done well, the ideal is a ship that can be fitted to be excellent with missiles and decent(as now) with drones, all drones. Or excellent with drones, better with drones than now, with decent (as now missiles) or a mix of the two.
Fittings should decide this not prenerfed weapons systems.
There is something wrong where every suggestion is accused of making the ship overpowered due to the ability to fit bonused rapids.
So suggestions seem to follow into the following groups.
1 leave entirely as suggested. This makes for very limited options to make use of the ship, awesome when fitted with rapids and everything else is disappointing. this does please a small group a great deal but most others are left disappointed.
2 rectify identified issues, restoring the smaller drone class bonuses, reverting to 4 launchers with appropriate missile bonus on those to achieve CCP Rises damage upgrade desires.
3 The above but with the superdrones being increased in power as suggested by mike Voidstar and more importantly hitpoints to keep the superdrone concept balanced across ship classes.
4 if the superdrones are balanced, and lights and mediums retain bonus, if the missile bonus is such that it does not favour rapid lights, then drones and missiles should be able to be selected as to player desires without it being possible to fit for max missile and max drone at the same time. retain the rapid missile bonus , but only allow 4 launchers and drop the idea of a fifth and make part of the missile bonus a bonus to rate of fire. This prevents rapid missiles from totally dominating the choice of fit, and helps mitigate it from becoming a terrifying frigate killer without match, but still allows it to perform that role well.
This may be a balance that all except the first group may accept as all types of player have a chance of a good ship. But naturally those who were happy to have a ship ideally suited to their exact needs and desires will be severely disappointed.
Cpu and power may need slight tweaks for this to be acceptable, but 4 launchers eases the issue. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5324
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:49:00 -
[1808] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Last Wolf wrote:
Personally I think Gruistas should be pure missile boats and lose the drones altogether. Drone faction should be the pirate drone ships.
Well, they'd have to be switched to armour tanks, then, which'll annoy a whole load more people. We've already got one line of faction shield-missile boats, we don't really need another. The pirate/navy thing is just a label. Sansha ships are shield tanked, yet the NPC's are armor. However, I'm completely fine with a Drone Pirate missile+armor ship. Armor + missile is something we currently lack in any dedicated form outside of Typhoon (which is also fairly good and projectiles/shields/drones) and Armageddon (which is mainly drones/NOS/Nuets and can also use lasers.
Bingo.
They've simultaneously managed to differentiate the Rattlesnake from being something besides a shield Dominix, as well as carve it out it's own niche that is largely unserved in the game currently.
I love it. The only worry I really have it that it exposes just how very weaksauce the Navy Scorpion is in comparison. (same effective launchers and resist bonus, no bonused drones, and 1 more mid) "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
379
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:13:00 -
[1809] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:The only worry I really have it that it exposes just how very weaksauce the Navy Scorpion is in comparison. (same effective launchers and resist bonus, no bonused drones, and 1 more mid) Navy Scorp technically has more launchers (8 vs 7.5 at all 5s) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15213
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:27:00 -
[1810] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Last Wolf wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Last Wolf wrote:
Personally I think Gruistas should be pure missile boats and lose the drones altogether. Drone faction should be the pirate drone ships.
Well, they'd have to be switched to armour tanks, then, which'll annoy a whole load more people. We've already got one line of faction shield-missile boats, we don't really need another. The pirate/navy thing is just a label. Sansha ships are shield tanked, yet the NPC's are armor. However, I'm completely fine with a Drone Pirate missile+armor ship. Armor + missile is something we currently lack in any dedicated form outside of Typhoon (which is also fairly good and projectiles/shields/drones) and Armageddon (which is mainly drones/NOS/Nuets and can also use lasers. Bingo. They've simultaneously managed to differentiate the Rattlesnake from being something besides a shield Dominix, as well as carve it out it's own niche that is largely unserved in the game currently. I love it. The only worry I really have it that it exposes just how very weaksauce the Navy Scorpion is in comparison. (same effective launchers and resist bonus, no bonused drones, and 1 more mid)
I think it's OK for a navy faction ship to be a little worse than a comparable pirate faction one (eg: fleetpest vs Mach) Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5324
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:33:00 -
[1811] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
I think it's OK for a navy faction ship to be a little worse than a comparable pirate faction one (eg: fleetpest vs Mach)
While I agree, I don't think a full set of bonused drones counts as a little better.
But eh, I suppose the fitting differences are what really make that up. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Arthur Aihaken
Arsenite
3365
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:36:00 -
[1812] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Navy Scorp technically has more launchers (8 vs 7.5 at all 5s) Yes, except that technically the Rattlesnake will do more actual damage. Especially if you're running rapid launchers, which lose out on hulls with rate of fire bonuses. There's the other consideration of the missile bonus on the Rattlesnake also applying to rapid light launchers. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2145
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 22:43:00 -
[1813] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Malcanis wrote:
I think it's OK for a navy faction ship to be a little worse than a comparable pirate faction one (eg: fleetpest vs Mach)
While I agree, I don't think a full set of bonused drones counts as a little better. But eh, I suppose the fitting differences are what really make that up.
Malcanis was understating, I believe.
At any rate, I agree with him. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1125
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:51:00 -
[1814] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Navy Scorp technically has more launchers (8 vs 7.5 at all 5s) Yes, except that technically the Rattlesnake will do more actual damage. Especially if you're running rapid launchers, which lose out on hulls with rate of fire bonuses. There's the other consideration of the missile bonus on the Rattlesnake also applying to rapid light launchers. I thought rapid heavies did get the ROF bonus, am I mistaken?
Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by miss out? |
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
Elysian. Heiian Conglomerate
25
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:55:00 -
[1815] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Navy Scorp technically has more launchers (8 vs 7.5 at all 5s) Yes, except that technically the Rattlesnake will do more actual damage. Especially if you're running rapid launchers, which lose out on hulls with rate of fire bonuses. There's the other consideration of the missile bonus on the Rattlesnake also applying to rapid light launchers. I thought rapid heavies did get the ROF bonus, am I mistaken? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by lose out? ROF bonus with Rapids makes you reload more often, leading to less damage. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5324
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:56:00 -
[1816] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Navy Scorp technically has more launchers (8 vs 7.5 at all 5s) Yes, except that technically the Rattlesnake will do more actual damage. Especially if you're running rapid launchers, which lose out on hulls with rate of fire bonuses. There's the other consideration of the missile bonus on the Rattlesnake also applying to rapid light launchers. I thought rapid heavies did get the ROF bonus, am I mistaken? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by lose out?
They benefit from it very poorly, thanks to their enormous reload time. Damage is the most valuable for them, and arguably for other missiles as well, as it plays to their strengths of alpha. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
176
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Posted - 2014.04.24 23:33:00 -
[1817] - Quote
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Navy Scorp technically has more launchers (8 vs 7.5 at all 5s) Yes, except that technically the Rattlesnake will do more actual damage. Especially if you're running rapid launchers, which lose out on hulls with rate of fire bonuses. There's the other consideration of the missile bonus on the Rattlesnake also applying to rapid light launchers. I thought rapid heavies did get the ROF bonus, am I mistaken? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by lose out? ROF bonus with Rapids makes you reload more often, leading to less damage. Actually reloading more often leads to more damage over time.
Where ROF bonuses lose is in the delayed damage aspect of missiles. Rapid Launchers are designed specifically to shoot small targets, unless you can predict which volley is the kill shot and not fire the next, you will always end up with wasted volleys.
The further away from you targets are, the more wasted volleys = Less Dps applied per reload. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11293
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Posted - 2014.04.24 23:50:00 -
[1818] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.
Those are far from the only options. It can use any of the nine types of missile launchers. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Angelina Joliee
DEFCON. The Initiative.
33
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Posted - 2014.04.24 23:51:00 -
[1819] - Quote
I would love the rattle to keep at least a little buff for small/medium drones. Something like 25% to all drones PLUS 250% to heavy/sentry (instead of 275%). Haven't done the math precisely, but I hope, you recognize the direction I mean. |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
171
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Posted - 2014.04.24 23:59:00 -
[1820] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.
Those are far from the only options. It can use any of the nine types of missile launchers. And you could put 250mm Arty on a Machariel, that doesn't mean you should. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11293
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Posted - 2014.04.25 00:10:00 -
[1821] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:baltec1 wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.
Those are far from the only options. It can use any of the nine types of missile launchers. And you could put 250mm Arty on a Machariel, that doesn't mean you should.
Mach doesnt get a 50% bonus to all projectile weapons. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5324
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Posted - 2014.04.25 00:34:00 -
[1822] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:baltec1 wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.
Those are far from the only options. It can use any of the nine types of missile launchers. And you could put 250mm Arty on a Machariel, that doesn't mean you should.
Are you actually that obtuse? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
162
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Posted - 2014.04.25 01:21:00 -
[1823] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:CCP Rise 10 - ISD Ezwal 7. As it should be. It would be sad if I happen to outpost a Dev in his own feedback thread, as that would mean it keeps on derailing.
I want to see the statistics for who has had the most posts removed. Warning: Sarcasm Above. |
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
26
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Posted - 2014.04.25 01:26:00 -
[1824] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:ISD Ezwal wrote:CCP Rise 10 - ISD Ezwal 7. As it should be. It would be sad if I happen to outpost a Dev in his own feedback thread, as that would mean it keeps on derailing.
I want to see the statistics for who has had the most posts removed.
Do we really need to? Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
176
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Posted - 2014.04.25 05:51:00 -
[1825] - Quote
Any idea on when these proposed changes might be live on the test server??
More than halfway through Autumn here, so a little over 1 month till they are supposed to be going live on TQ. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1273
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Posted - 2014.04.25 06:30:00 -
[1826] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Any idea on when these proposed changes might be live on the test server??
More than halfway through Autumn here, so a little over 1 month till they are supposed to be going live on TQ.
'Summer' meaning the expansion will be sometime in Summer. Not 'the second summer hits these will be live' They could still be four months away and fit summer, let alone if they let it run a little late for some reason into very early autumn. |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
176
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Posted - 2014.04.25 06:31:00 -
[1827] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:gascanu wrote:
i'm sorry but you are wrong; drones do not fire when mwding, and as soon as they get in range they shut down the mwd; the web will slow them out of range and they need to mwd again for 1 cycle to get in range and so on; all that that have been explained before...
there is a big difference: webbing one out of 5 drones will make you lose 20% dps, so basically no one do that; webbing one out of 2 drones will make you lose 50% dps. that's a pretty big difference don't you think?
No. The situation that you describe simply reflects an incorrect choice of drone by the Rattlesnake pilot. I keep on explaining this but it's not sinking in. The Rattlesnake pilot should not be using heavy drones in this situation so the problem that you describe should never arise. The only way that you will be able to use a web to drive a heavy drone out of activation range in the way that you describe is if you are flying a fast ship that is not itself tackled. In which case, the Rattlesnake pilot should not be using heavy drones. It should be using sentries. If you are attempting to orbit around 10 km, then, yes, you can try to web an incoming heavy drone. I've tested this and it doesn't work very well. The heavies are too fast and you're too close. Yes, you could then attempt to burn away and web the drone down, but in this case you just switch to sentries - and frankly you shouldn't have been able to have done this anyway, because of counter-tackle. You will only have 7 Drones in your drone bay, 6 if you carry a flight of lights (presuming most will). To be at all usable as a Drone Boat, your alternatives will be - Heavies OR Sentries, the "and" Sentries has been pretty much removed. Mix your drones at best you will have 1 spare drone per flight. Choice - Gardes or Bouncers, cover range options. Choice - Ogres or Beserkers, Cover Speed and Dps With either combo you can carry 1 spare of each. Mix Heavies & Sentries, do you go for long range, short range, speed or Dps?
If you are already in orbit at 10k and see heavy drones pop out, align away, your doing 3 to 4 X the speed the Heavies are, you'll quickly pull range on them and as your doing so you are locking them up.. There is only 2, not too hard to target 2 Drones. The drones have you aggressed so will follow as far as you lead, they can not fire upon you unless you stop and allow them to drop from MWD into orbit (drone activation proximity). You will take a few hits from the drones while dragging them but as long as you keep them more than 5,001 m from you, they can not apply meaningful Dps. Treat Super Heavies as you would an attacking frigate. React accordingly. If you would die to 2 T1 frigates with a maximum range of 5,000 m and can only shoot while orbiting at a maximum speed of 600 m/s, you will die to 2 super heavies.
Probably nowhere near as easy as it sounds but a bunch of frigates shouldn't be able to kill a carrier either, yet it happens. |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
176
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Posted - 2014.04.25 06:37:00 -
[1828] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:
Any idea on when these proposed changes might be live on the test server??
More than halfway through Autumn here, so a little over 1 month till they are supposed to be going live on TQ.
'Summer' meaning the expansion will be sometime in Summer. Not 'the second summer hits these will be live' They could still be four months away and fit summer, let alone if they let it run a little late for some reason into very early autumn. So by your reasoning, these changes needn't be put on the test server until - 1 week before release acceptable? Or like like Rapid launchers - they hit the test server "after" they were live on TQ.
Question is still relevant - when are these changes likely to hit the Test Server -
Splitting hairs over when summer is may be fun and all but seriously? |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2146
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Posted - 2014.04.25 07:12:00 -
[1829] - Quote
The "summer" expansions tend to hit in June or so. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
741
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Posted - 2014.04.25 08:41:00 -
[1830] - Quote
Has it ever happened where once something has hit the test server that the rebalance has been re-evaluated?
Or is it that once it hits the test server, only very minor variations take place, leaving things in the majority unchanged?
The impression I am getting is that once it reaches that stage, it is pretty set in stone.
Either way, I hope CCP rise will respond soon, and take the differing views into account. Before we reach that late stage.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
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