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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
14
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Posted - 2014.04.01 13:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
It's a really sweet ship, but it has one glaring issue that greatly detracts from the joy of flying it, which really irks me.
All other specialist cloaking ships have a role bonus of cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds. This applies to CovOps frigates, Stealth bombers, Blockade Runners, Recons (the bonus isn't explicitly listed but is still in effect), T3 cruisers with covert reconfiguration subsystem, and even Black Ops battleships!
But the Stratios doesn't get any cloak reactivation bonus at all.
This is a major pain in the arse because it means that after gate jumping you have to wait a few seconds and hold gate cloak because if you move straight away then you can't cloak for a few seconds. This obviously sucks big time since it gives anyone camping the gate much more time to get a bubble up and/or orbit the gate to decloak you.
I don't see any justification whatsoever for the Stratios to be the only ship penalized in this manner, so I respectfully suggest that it should get the cloak reactivation bonus to bring it in line with all other specialist cloaking ships. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2118
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Posted - 2014.04.01 13:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:It's a really sweet ship, but it has one glaring issue that greatly detracts from the joy of flying it, which really irks me.
All other specialist cloaking ships have a role bonus of cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds. This applies to CovOps frigates, Stealth bombers, Blockade Runners, Recons (the bonus isn't explicitly listed but is still in effect), T3 cruisers with covert reconfiguration subsystem, and even Black Ops battleships!
But the Stratios doesn't get any cloak reactivation bonus at all.
This is a major pain in the arse because it means that after gate jumping you have to wait a few seconds and hold gate cloak because if you move straight away then you can't cloak for a few seconds. This obviously sucks big time since it gives anyone camping the gate much more time to get a bubble up and/or orbit the gate to decloak you.
I don't see any justification whatsoever for the Stratios to be the only ship penalized in this manner, so I respectfully suggest that it should get the cloak reactivation bonus to bring it in line with all other specialist cloaking ships.
Edit: I just noticed the Astero has the same issue, so same points apply for that.
They are also the only T1 ship in the game that can use a covert ops cloak at all. Meaning it is a covert ship without the T2 training time. Hence the trade off. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
398
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Posted - 2014.04.01 15:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Deactivate cloak before you land on the gate
Jump through
Warp and activate cloak
Profit! |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
14
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Posted - 2014.04.01 15:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Deactivate cloak before you land on the gate
Get alpha'd while 'Approaching the Gate'
Do not Profit!
Ftfy.
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Deryn Angrard
Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders
55
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Posted - 2014.04.01 15:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
I have never had problem of getting shot at even if i decloak my hauler mid warp to activate tank in case of smartbombs.
If you wont do that, just wait 5 more seconds on the other side of the gate. |
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
598
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Neutrino Sunset wrote:It's a really sweet ship, but it has one glaring issue that greatly detracts from the joy of flying it, which really irks me.
All other specialist cloaking ships have a role bonus of cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds. This applies to CovOps frigates, Stealth bombers, Blockade Runners, Recons (the bonus isn't explicitly listed but is still in effect), T3 cruisers with covert reconfiguration subsystem, and even Black Ops battleships!
But the Stratios doesn't get any cloak reactivation bonus at all.
This is a major pain in the arse because it means that after gate jumping you have to wait a few seconds and hold gate cloak because if you move straight away then you can't cloak for a few seconds. This obviously sucks big time since it gives anyone camping the gate much more time to get a bubble up and/or orbit the gate to decloak you.
I don't see any justification whatsoever for the Stratios to be the only ship penalized in this manner, so I respectfully suggest that it should get the cloak reactivation bonus to bring it in line with all other specialist cloaking ships.
Edit: I just noticed the Astero has the same issue, so same points apply for that. They are also the only T1 ship in the game that can use a covert ops cloak at all. Meaning it is a covert ship without the T2 training time. Hence the trade off. This.
Coreli Corporation: Small gang PVP & Drug Production, Apply now! |
oohthey ioh
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 08:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Deactivate cloak before you land on the gate
Get alpha'd while 'Approaching the Gate'
Do not Profit! Ftfy.
why would you approach the gate? |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
479
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 09:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Deactivate cloak before you land on the gate
Get alpha'd while 'Approaching the Gate'
Do not Profit! Ftfy.
Warp to zero, check it out its been around a while.
The cloak activation delay is price you pay for being able to warp cloaked in a T1 hull, if anything the Stratios is OP for a cloaky what with the tank and DPS you can get out of it and still have use of the cloak. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
15
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Posted - 2014.04.02 12:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you warp to a gate at zero you quite often don't land within jump range. What follows then is a period of several seconds where the autopilot enters an 'Approaching the gate' phase prior to jumping, naturally during this time you are vulnerable to attack.
Also I wasn't suggesting the 15 second cloak reactivation delay made the Stratios underpowered, since it's such a minor issue that I don't think it qualifies as a balance consideration at all.
It does however result in an odd and rather cumbersome mechanic. With cloak reactivation delay of 15 seconds the amount of time you need to decloak before gate jumping, or hold gate cloak for a few seconds after jumping, is largely dependent on how busy the system or grid that you are jumping into is, and therefore how long it takes for the session change to occur.
The amount of time it takes for a session change to occur being dependent on system load is a meta-mechanic (i.e. it is a behaviour that is a server side-effect rather than a behaviour intentionally encoded into the game logic). While meta-mechanics do frequently impact in-game behaviour this is an effect that is generally to be avoided wherever possible, largely because it's immersion breaking, but also because out-of-game side-effects can be hard for players to counter with in-game techniques.
In this particular case the need to decloak early, or hold gate cloak after jumping, and the amount of time you need to allow for this, is difficult to determine when one may not know how busy the system/grid is that you are about to jump into, and this is exacerbated by the fact that the cloak reactivation delay is not made visible to the pilot anywhere in the UI.
So it seems to me that a good solution to this would be to reduce cloak reactivation delay on the Stratios from 15 to 10 seconds. That would still be twice as long a reactivation delay as any other covops vessel, but it should be sufficient for the reactivation delay not to be an issue on every single gate jump.
Alternatively modify the cloak module to that it goes flashy red during its reactivation delay period so that the pilot knows when it's safe to reactivate it. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2120
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 13:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:If you warp to a gate at zero you quite often don't land within jump range. What follows then is a period of several seconds where the autopilot enters an 'Approaching the gate' phase prior to jumping, naturally during this time you are vulnerable to attack. I'm not sure what you may experience, but I'd call this issue very rare vs quite often. I almost never see it occur and I do lots of cloaky gate running.
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Also I wasn't suggesting the 15 second cloak reactivation delay made the Stratios underpowered, since it's such a minor issue that I don't think it qualifies as a balance consideration at all.
It actually does have a balance issue. These ships do get used for more than travelling around low/null doing PVE activities.
As such the stratios is already borderline OP. There isn't a single T2 cruiser hull that can be covert ops cloaked and push over 800DPS. In fact even throwing in the T3 cruisers, the only one capable of this feat would be the Proteus.
So be thankful it is only 15 seconds instead of its original 30 seconds. |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3807
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 15:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
I personally don't have an issue with altering the recloaking delay. I've run into several situations where I decloak too early and cannot immediately recloak (usually with covops or blockade runners, which already have the shorter recloak time).
From my perspective, I'm trying to figure out what it changes in the overall game, and honestly don't see the issue. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
400
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 15:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Having no or little reactivation delay would make the Stratios far more difficult to catch while jumping through gates.
This would be far too powerful for a T1 ship which is why it has the delay.
As has been said, it was 30 seconds, now it's 15 seconds. 15 seconds is easily usable and is only a slight hinderance. 30 seconds required a lot of pre planning while warping to gates in busy hostile systems but it was still useable. To be honest I wouldn't be bothered if it reverted back to 30 seconds.
TL;DR this is not something that is actually an issue. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
287
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 16:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why aren't you holding cloak on the other side of the gate? Not supported. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2121
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 16:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I personally don't have an issue with altering the recloaking delay. I've run into several situations where I decloak too early and cannot immediately recloak (usually with covops or blockade runners, which already have the shorter recloak time).
From my perspective, I'm trying to figure out what it changes in the overall game, and honestly don't see the issue.
One example. WH space.
Especially given the current mechanic, new K162 sigs will show up on the discovery scanner automatically, so time is of the essence.
Warp to a WH, jump thru. identify a potential target on dscan in an anom.
Any other covert ops can be in warp and cloak pretty much immediately. A stratios will have to wait a little. Sure it isn't a huge amount of time. But it can be the difference between you landing on grid before or after the new sig shows up on the discovery scanner. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2121
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 16:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
One other thing to keep in mind. This is more for the frigates as there really isn't an equal T1 ship to compare to the stratios.
All things being equal, the primary difference between a covert ops and an astero is the cloak delay. Otherwise both are pretty close in capabilities.
starting from sratch you can have a noob flying cloaked in an astero in ~7 days. A covert ops will take ~23 days.
making the two equally capable would really slap the T2 variants in the face. |
Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy The Obsidian Front
95
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 18:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Just to note, the "approaching gate" thing happens after using the jump button to warp while cloaked. When you land on the gate, the game tries to jump you and fails because you're still cloaked in that server tick. It then approaches the gate as a failsafe to make sure you're in jump range (regardless of if you are) and tries to jump again (I'm not sure if it tries on the next tick or waits a bit). If you aren't cloaked when you land on the gate, it shouldn't happen. Welcome to our universe where cooldown timers are a mystery, the PLEX menu is just an advertisement, shrapnel bombs deal explosive force, concussion bombs are somehow kinetically penetrative, and who left all these prototype Inferno modules all over the place? |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
170
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 19:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:If you warp to a gate at zero you quite often don't land within jump range. What follows then is a period of several seconds where the autopilot enters an 'Approaching the gate' phase prior to jumping, naturally during this time you are vulnerable to attack.
Also I wasn't suggesting the 15 second cloak reactivation delay made the Stratios underpowered, since it's such a minor issue that I don't think it qualifies as a balance consideration at all.
It does however result in an odd and rather cumbersome mechanic. With cloak reactivation delay of 15 seconds the amount of time you need to decloak before gate jumping, or hold gate cloak for a few seconds after jumping, is largely dependent on how busy the system or grid that you are jumping into is, and therefore how long it takes for the session change to occur.
The amount of time it takes for a session change to occur being dependent on system load is a meta-mechanic (i.e. it is a behaviour that is a server side-effect rather than a behaviour intentionally encoded into the game logic). While meta-mechanics do frequently impact in-game behaviour this is an effect that is generally to be avoided wherever possible, largely because it's immersion breaking, but also because out-of-game side-effects can be hard for players to counter with in-game techniques.
In this particular case the need to decloak early, or hold gate cloak after jumping, and the amount of time you need to allow for this, is difficult to determine when one may not know how busy the system/grid is that you are about to jump into, and this is exacerbated by the fact that the cloak reactivation delay is not made visible to the pilot anywhere in the UI.
So it seems to me that a good solution to this would be to reduce cloak reactivation delay on the Stratios from 15 to 10 seconds. That would still be twice as long a reactivation delay as any other covops vessel, but it should be sufficient for the reactivation delay not to be an issue on every single gate jump.
Alternatively modify the cloak module to that it goes flashy red during its reactivation delay period so that the pilot knows when it's safe to reactivate it.
No.
The way to prevent having to approach longer than necessary is this:
Warp to 0 (don't use the jump button). right click when you land with cloak deactivated and use that jump mechanism. I have noticed that it works more efficiently than the jump command which will sometimes approach and break your invuln timer. /themoreyouknow
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 19:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
For the record since T3 cruisers are at least as effective as T2 and require no significant skill training I think the whole "T2 ships require lots of extra skill training" argument is a total red herring. As is comparing a faction ship to vanilla T1. Plenty of other faction ships have abilities that match or exceed T2.
If the cloak reactivation delay is going to be so long as to impact every gate jump, then at the very least it has to be made visible to the pilot in some way, with a flashy red module effect or something. Otherwise your getting shafted by a mechanic you can't even see, and why anyone would want to defend that I can't imagine. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 19:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:The way to prevent having to approach longer than necessary is this: ...
Thanks for that tip, I'll give it a try.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
11763
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 20:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Just be happy that you get to use a Covert Cloak on it at all... Because they could have just given it the BLOPS treatment and made it so you can only use a non-Covert cloak... and id love to hear people's whines about that.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3293
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 00:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:For the record since T3 cruisers are at least as effective as T2 and require no significant skill training
Sounds like a good reason to nerf Tech 3 to me. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 01:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote: So be thankful it is only 15 seconds instead of its original 30 seconds.
Quoted for emphasis. CCP already buffed the timer. What would be nice, on the other hand, would be an option to display the count down timer for recloaking and gate cloaking. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2122
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 01:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:For the record since T3 cruisers are at least as effective as T2 and require no significant skill training I think the whole "T2 ships require lots of extra skill training" argument is a total red herring. As is comparing a faction ship to vanilla T1. Plenty of other faction ships have abilities that match or exceed T2.
Im sorry but your attempt to make this a T2 vs T3 is itself the red herring.
As I already showed above, in the frigate realm you can effectively get into a "covert ops" frigate (astero) with almost the same capabilities as its T2 counterparts in 1/3 the time. So if the only real penalty is the cloak reactivation time its justified IMO.
In the cruiser realm it is hard to compare, because very little can compare to the stratios.
The ONLY other T2 covert cruisers are the 4 recons. And they can't hold a candle to the Stratios in terms of combat power.
Even when you compare to the T3 cruisers (which people complain are OP, which is a different argument) the ONLY T3 cruiser that can compete with damage output is the Proteus. A cloaky tengu,Loki, or legion does a fraction of the DPS a Stratios can do.
So for all its pluses, if the only real downside is a whopping 15 second cloak reactivation timer, then so be it. Well worth it for all of the ships benefits.
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Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
100
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 07:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:It's a really sweet ship, but it has one glaring issue that greatly detracts from the joy of flying it, which really irks me.
All other specialist cloaking ships have a role bonus of cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds. This applies to CovOps frigates, Stealth bombers, Blockade Runners, Recons (the bonus isn't explicitly listed but is still in effect), T3 cruisers with covert reconfiguration subsystem, and even Black Ops battleships!
But the Stratios doesn't get any cloak reactivation bonus at all.
This is a major pain in the arse because it means that after gate jumping you have to wait a few seconds and hold gate cloak because if you move straight away then you can't cloak for a few seconds. This obviously sucks big time since it gives anyone camping the gate much more time to get a bubble up and/or orbit the gate to decloak you.
I don't see any justification whatsoever for the Stratios to be the only ship penalized in this manner, so I respectfully suggest that it should get the cloak reactivation bonus to bring it in line with all other specialist cloaking ships.
Edit: I just noticed the Astero has the same issue, so same points apply for that.
To correct a few factual errors: The Astero and the Stratios had their cloak reactivation delay reduced to 15 seconds a short while ago, which sets them on the same level as a stealth bomber. Also stealth bombers have a 15 second reactivation delay instead of 5 seconds, you are wrong there, too. 15 seconds is good enough, by the way. More reduction would make the SOE-ships better then stealth bombers at stealth, which would be silly.
Look at the patch notes for Rubicon 1.1, under Gameplay. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 08:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:To correct a few factual errors: The Astero and the Stratios had their cloak reactivation delay reduced to 15 seconds a short while ago, which sets them on the same level as a stealth bomber. Also ...
I never said the Astero and Stratios _didn't_ have their cloaking reactivation reduced to 15 seconds ion the first place, so that's not a factual error.
Owen Levanth wrote:Also stealth bombers have a 15 second reactivation delay instead of 5 seconds, you are wrong there, too.
Yes you are right, (so that's one factual error), don't know how I missed that, and thanks for the link to patch notes too.
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Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
100
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 08:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Owen Levanth wrote:To correct a few factual errors: The Astero and the Stratios had their cloak reactivation delay reduced to 15 seconds a short while ago, which sets them on the same level as a stealth bomber. Also ... I never said the Astero and Stratios _didn't_ have their cloaking reactivation reduced to 15 seconds ion the first place, so that's not a factual error. Owen Levanth wrote:Also stealth bombers have a 15 second reactivation delay instead of 5 seconds, you are wrong there, too. Yes you are right, (so that's one factual error), don't know how I missed that, and thanks for the link to patch notes too.
Well, you said the Stratios doesn't get any cloaking reduction bonus, which is false. It's even in the post I quoted! (Cloak reactivation without bonus is 30 seconds minus the effect of your cloaking skill, by the way. This means of course ships with 5 or 15 second delay have in truth far shorter times, too: Your cloaking skill is already at 4 for the covert-ops cloak, which significantly reduces your reactivation delay even turther.)
In short: A further reduction of the cloaking reactivation time isn't needed. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 15:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ok, fair enough. I've been looking at EFT and it doesn't help that the EFT descriptions don't always match the in game ones.
But according to the in game description the Cloaking skill affects the targetting delay after decloaking, not cloak reactivation delay. it that correct or does it have an undocumented additional behaviour that affects reactivation delay?
At least no one's disagreed that the Cloak module should display the reactivation delay. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2122
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 15:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Ok, fair enough. I've been looking at EFT and it doesn't help that the EFT descriptions don't always match the in game ones.
But according to the in game description the Cloaking skill affects the targetting delay after decloaking, not cloak reactivation delay. it that correct or does it have an undocumented additional behaviour that affects reactivation delay?
At least no one's disagreed that the Cloak module should display the reactivation delay.
Every module with a delay should have some sort of visual cue (OMG MJD is my 3 minutes up yet?) |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
401
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 16:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Neutrino Sunset wrote:Ok, fair enough. I've been looking at EFT and it doesn't help that the EFT descriptions don't always match the in game ones.
But according to the in game description the Cloaking skill affects the targetting delay after decloaking, not cloak reactivation delay. it that correct or does it have an undocumented additional behaviour that affects reactivation delay?
At least no one's disagreed that the Cloak module should display the reactivation delay. Every module with a delay should have some sort of visual cue (OMG MJD is my 3 minutes up yet?)
This is in the works. It was requested with the introduction of Rapid L/H Missile Launchers. I believe it will be applied to all modules and not just weapon reload timers.
And yes...... those three minutes are a pain in the arse. I use a stop watch to keep track but I can't have 3 stop watches running in front of me to keep track of ASB's MJD's and RHML's. Need the UI fixing sooner rather than later |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
694
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 19:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
30 seconds was an absolute disaster, and made the stratios quite unpleasnat to fly any distance in hostile space. 15 seconds though in my opinion is a reasonable length of time, like a stealth bomber one cannot engage and disengage with impunity, but travel is no longer an issue.
It Seems a reasonable decision to set it at 15 seconds and I for one am very grateful that CCP listened and acted on our concerns. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
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