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thecunning mrfox
Darwin's response The Periphery
52
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Posted - 2014.03.12 10:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Question is in the title, are the changes to the rifter going live today enough for me to engage something other than another rifter? |
Gregor Parud
301
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Posted - 2014.03.12 11:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd have to check it in EFT but it might now have a kiting frig again like other factions (not counting the Breacher). |
Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
889
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Posted - 2014.03.12 11:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Engage everything in your rifter mate! They are a lot better than most people realise you just need to know how to fly it.
Today it got a bit faster and a bit better damage projection. Whats not to like! It won't become FOTM though which is a good thing imo. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Gregor Parud
301
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Posted - 2014.03.12 12:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Given how powerful the new tackle/kite frigs are I'm not really seeing a use for a slow (comparatively) mediocre frigate, of course it can get kills just fine but there's nothing a Rifter can kill a slasher couldn't kill either while there's plenty stuff a slasher can handle a Rifter just can't.
I really do feel like Minmatar is being punished for being OP for so long, nerf hammer pendulum and all that. |
Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
889
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Posted - 2014.03.12 12:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tbh the argument that a slasher can kill anything a rifter can is pretty weak really. After the rebalances there are very few things that one frig can kill and it's brother from the attack or combat lines can't as well. And this is a good thing as it means you have much more variety in frig pvp circles.
The rifter v slasher argument has been done to death and imo kinda silly. It's like arguing a tormentor v executioner or incursus v atron. Pointless they are different ships with different (slightly) abilities. You learn how to fly to the strengths of your while exploiting the weaknesses of other simple.
Now the rifter has it's bonus changed I see it even more capable than a slasher. It now has the ability to out project it's damage and is still fast enough to handle manual piloting to assist when dealing with the niche TD armour slasher.
Gonna be fun trying the amarr concepts as well That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Ava Starfire
Gradient
1480
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 13:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
As I have already posted elsewhere:
Decent Rifter pilots have known to fight in deep falloff for a long, long time, vs most other frigs. You close orbit vs Amarrian stuffs, or anything which missile/rocket kites, and of course, cruisers and up.
Now we're better at no 1, no worse at no 2 (you wont be going THAT fast, and autos still track great) and you have both speed and a web to help vs anything which may, for whatever reason, try tracking games on you, or you can do workable MSE fits again, which will have murderous range and DPS.
It is a win/win. "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Gregor Parud
301
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Posted - 2014.03.12 13:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Tbh the argument that a slasher can kill anything a rifter can is pretty weak really. After the rebalances there are very few things that one frig can kill and it's brother from the attack or combat lines can't as well. And this is a good thing as it means you have much more variety in frig pvp circles.
Right up to the point where a Slasher can do stuff the Rifter can't, so they're not equally useful in that respect, the Rifter simply has less options. I guess it's more that I don't like the "slow" brawler frigs too much, right now they're not doing too well because they can't compete (strategy wise) with the kite frigates while getting in the way of AFs and those will, normally, eat them alive. The only reason why the Slasher isn't vastly outperforming the Rifter is because atm small projectiles suck at dps@20km and while the new bonus helps with that it's on the "wrong" ship.
It's very much forced into a scram kiting strategy which, while useful, is also very obvious and doesn't work against cruisers or kiting frigs. So this change doesn't solve the issue, mostly because it's not an issue with the Rifter itself. |
Ava Starfire
Gradient
1481
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 14:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
You know that kiting, long point rifters with 22-23k falloff are now a thing, right?
That isnt exactly a brawler. "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
211
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Posted - 2014.03.12 14:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rifter has crazy fitting issues when it tries to use arties. I've some setups I want to try after this patch. Still waiting for it to download (1.2gb for a point release with not much change in graphics dpt....wtf) |
Ivan Krividus
Straightedge and Compass Industrial The Crimson Tower
157
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Posted - 2014.03.12 14:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
I think im gonna try to fly it like the good 'ol arty firetail. With that falloff bonus it can get a lot done. |
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Gregor Parud
301
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Posted - 2014.03.12 15:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:You know that kiting, long point rifters with 22-23k falloff are now a thing, right?
That isnt exactly a brawler.
It's not fast enough compared to other kiters (Condor, Atron, Executioner), that is exactly my point.
Right now projectile kiters have issues, rail/missile/laser kiters work much better than projectiles and it seems that CCP tries to fix 2 problems in one go; fix projectile kiting and fix the Rifter in the process. The problem is that this doesn't work because said Rifter isn't a kiter due to lack of speed (hence my "it's on the wrong ship" remark) and projectiles aren't good at kiting anyway.
Thus their Rifter solution doesn't work; it doesn't make it a better kiter and it doesn't solve Minnie's issues. The true solution would be to increase arty dps (while lowering alpha to not make it silly), THEN Minnie kiters can work, regardless of the Rifter and/or it's falloff bonus.
I can see why they're trying it though because there's no obvious way to boost the Rifter (within Minmatar "parameters") without making it silly OP. |
Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Brothers of Tangra
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 15:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:You know that kiting, long point rifters with 22-23k falloff are now a thing, right?
That isnt exactly a brawler. It's not fast enough compared to other kiters (Condor, Atron, Executioner), that is exactly my point. Right now projectile kiters have issues, rail/missile/laser kiters work much better than projectiles and it seems that CCP tries to fix 2 problems in one go; fix projectile kiting and fix the Rifter in the process. The problem is that this doesn't work because said Rifter isn't a kiter due to lack of speed (hence my "it's on the wrong ship" remark) and projectiles aren't good at kiting anyway. Thus their Rifter solution doesn't work; it doesn't make it a better kiter and it doesn't solve Minnie's issues. The true solution would be to increase arty dps (while lowering alpha to not make it silly), THEN Minnie kiters can work, regardless of the Rifter and/or it's falloff bonus. I can see why they're trying it though because there's no obvious way to boost the Rifter (within Minmatar "parameters") without making it silly OP. So... it's not as fast as the other kiters, but it still has more EHP and DPS within similar projection levels while simultaneously having more speed than anything with a stronger tank/gank profile. It may not have good EHP for a combat frigate, but it still has a decent amount more than an attack frigate.
It should be able to range control against any other combat frigs while using its HP and gank to beat attack frigates. It's really more of a hybrid than a 'combat' or 'attack' frigate. |
Maekchu
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
20
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Posted - 2014.03.12 16:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
As much as I love the Rifter, the changes in this patch won't really impact much on how it is flown or it's general strength.
You have always been able to take on other frigates, however it required a decent amount of knowledge of other ships and their meta and good range dictation skills.
With the speed boost and falloff bonus, it will just be overall better (compared to it's older self, obviously :P) since it's faster and does more DPS, because of better falloff. However, the ship is still rather slow (compared to for example the Breacher), and it's general DPS is also very low.
If one has rocket skills on the same level as ones AC skills, I cannot see a reason to pick the Rifter over the Breacher, since the Breacher does the same, just much better (At least in solo pvp).
Flying Rifters is still fun though, and I'll take a look at it. I just don't expect a huge power boost.
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Gregor Parud
301
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Posted - 2014.03.12 17:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:So... it's not as fast as the other kiters, but it still has more EHP and DPS within similar projection levels
No and no, that's the problem.
Lets look at other kiters and the damage they do (not overheated):
condor: 100-120 dps (depends if fury is a useful ammo for the target) Atron: 100 dps @ 20km and can do more at 15-17km Executioner: 100dps@16km (scorch fit) and more at 15km or with beam fit some 100dps @18km
Now try and make a slasher or the new rifter do similar dps at 20km. You just can't make that work, not even slightly. So it's flawed from the speed pov and it's flawed because of a lack of damage projection. It's NOT a full kiter, it's a scram kiter and even there it's limited.
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Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
125
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Posted - 2014.03.12 19:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Odd, my Rifter seems to be doing 107 DPS at twenty point four kilometers....
Hmm... still goes over 3k a second. And over 5k EHP?
Yea, it will never be a FULL kiter. No one will ever solo in a Rifter -áFear The Tribes |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
362
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 21:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
The Rifter was competitive before. Now it will be even better. The Rifter is a strange beast.
It's not the best frigate at everything. But it is the best frigate at one thing: Its good at everything.
Whether people like to admit it or not, being a good jack of all trades has value. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1571
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 21:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Goldensaver wrote:So... it's not as fast as the other kiters, but it still has more EHP and DPS within similar projection levels No and no, that's the problem. Lets look at other kiters and the damage they do (not overheated): condor: 100-120 dps (depends if fury is a useful ammo for the target) Atron: 100 dps @ 20km and can do more at 15-17km Executioner: 100dps@16km (scorch fit) and more at 15km or with beam fit some 100dps @18km Now try and make a slasher or the new rifter do similar dps at 20km. You just can't make that work, not even slightly. So it's flawed from the speed pov and it's flawed because of a lack of damage projection. It's NOT a full kiter, it's a scram kiter and even there it's limited.
The Slasher is faster then all of the ships you just listed. 150mm AC, small Neut, MWD, MASB, Web, and scram - you don't need to shoot farther then them because you can run them down and either tank their damage for the time needed to kill them or simply get under their guns. My Slasher fit will do 6.4 km/s without links overheated.
The Rifter makes a great armor brawler:
High: 200mm II x 3 Rocket Launcher II Mid: AB II Web II Scram II Low: SAAR Adaptive Nano Ii F85 DC Rigs: Armor Nano x 2 Projectile Burst
135 - 156 DPS depending on overheat. 129 DPS Tanked until the SAAR runs out of paste - but it will keep repairing past that. Small sig that can be further exploited via links or halo implants. This is good for very small FW plex combat. For small fleets you can go 200mm plate, MWD, CPU rig, and meta modules instead. The Rifter is the best bet if you want an armor frigate in the Minmatar lineup.
Vs. the Slasher: 50% extra falloff and higher DPS as well as the TD 'nerf' reduces the impact overall of the 200mm + TD Slasher. The Rifter's utility high does allow a launcher whereas the Slasher's does not. It's only ~ 20 DPS - but that pushes the Rifter's DPS from 'meh' to 'okay' all the same.
Vs. the Breacher: The Breacher needs a BCU II and a Warhead Calefaction rig in addition to two hobs to match the DPS of the Rifter above. It does send that DPS all the way out to scram range. The Rifter is capable of much more DPS if it shield tanks. The Rifter is safe loading EMP to fight the Breacher. The Breacher has to guess if the Rifter is armor tanked or shield tanked.
I think one of the reasons the Breacher is loved is it's efficient. 3 launcher highs. 4 mids. 3 lows. Everything get's used. In the case of the Slasher and Rifter that utility high is a pita to fit.
Shield Rifter: People will post fits all day long. A lot of fits need one, if not two fitting mods/rigs though. An AC Shield Rifter really needs a gyro, TE, and projectile rigs to work to the point of being justified. This is probably fine in a fleet setup.
Arty Rifter: Poor cap. Poor fittings. No more tracking bonus. If you can make it work more power to you. |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 22:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Odd, my Rifter seems to be doing 107 DPS at twenty point four kilometers....
Hmm... still goes over 3k a second. And over 5k EHP?
Yea, it will never be a FULL kiter. No one will ever solo in a Rifter
Ok, please link a Rifter fit that does ~100 dps @20km, non overheated. |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 22:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The Slasher is faster then all of the ships you just listed. 150mm AC, small Neut, MWD, MASB, Web, and scram - you don't need to shoot farther then them because you can run them down and either tank their damage for the time needed to kill them or simply get under their guns. My Slasher fit will do 6.4 km/s without links overheated.
Yes, lets use a simple T1 frigate with a full snake set when we compare ships, because that surely makes sense and isn't at all about bragging rights and comparing apples and oranges. Because the other ship couldn't at all do the same thing (to at least compare the same stuff), nooooo we're going to assume super amazing implants and then state the target is a low sp clown that didn't use any.
Also, we're talking kiting fits and how minnie has issues there atm, your "lulz implants yo, I go into scram range and pop some fools" has zero meaning here. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: Now try and make a slasher or the new rifter do similar dps at 20km. You just can't make that work, not even slightly. So it's flawed from the speed pov and it's flawed because of a lack of damage projection. It's NOT a full kiter, it's a scram kiter and even there it's limited.
Your logic is, well, doesn't exist. |
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:The Slasher is faster then all of the ships you just listed. 150mm AC, small Neut, MWD, MASB, Web, and scram - you don't need to shoot farther then them because you can run them down and either tank their damage for the time needed to kill them or simply get under their guns. My Slasher fit will do 6.4 km/s without links overheated. It's not realistic to compare a full snake fit T1 frigate and then state how it'll "pwn noobs", it doesn't help the balancing discussion in any way. Partly because it's slightly slilly and mostly because you're assuming the target doesn't do the same thing and isn't on the same page when it comes to pvp. We're talking kiting fits, Rifter and how Minnie has issues there atm, your snaked up brawl Slasher doesn't solve anything :) Also, your rifter fit gets killed by the first Executioner, condor or atron it runs into, which goes back to my original statement; Scram kiters are in trouble since the frigate rebalancing.
Idiota |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: Now try and make a slasher or the new rifter do similar dps at 20km. You just can't make that work, not even slightly. So it's flawed from the speed pov and it's flawed because of a lack of damage projection. It's NOT a full kiter, it's a scram kiter and even there it's limited.
Your logic is, well, doesn't exist.
It can't do similar dps compared to other kiting frigs and it doesn't have the speed the other kiting frigs have, but it does get a range bonus meaning it's shoehorned into a scram kiting fit. But you're free to state your own logic backed by facts and numbers, if you want.
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Bloodmyst Ranwar
War Toys Inc
31
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Right now the T1 Minnie Frigates are quite lackluster.
As a pilot who has flown the Slasher/Firetail exclusively for a year now, I'm of the opinion that the biggest problem is damage projection. Falloff sounds great and all, but quiet often when matched up against many other Frigs you just don't have the tank to be operating in deep fall off (edge of scram if autocannon fit).
I'm not saying that the Minnie T1 Frigs are horrible, more just I think the damage projection is quiet lackluster. The Slasher DPS is laughable, Rifter slightly more and now slightly better damage projection in Frig vs Frig battles....
Overall, I would say meh.... it's was worth a look, but I'm certainly not going to fly to Jita to purchase some.
I probably am a little biased though, considering I have recently decided to cross-train into Amarr ships. Currently, the Minmatar ship line-up overall is just lackluster in comparison to the other races IMO. |
Dato Koppla
Elite Guards Stealth Wear Inc.
507
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote: Slasher fit will do 6.4 km/s without links overheated. Yes, lets use a simple T1 frigate with a full snake set when we compare ships, because that surely makes sense and isn't at all about bragging rights and comparing apples and oranges. Because the other ship couldn't at all do the same thing (to at least compare the same stuff), nooooo we're going to assume super amazing implants and then state the target is a low sp clown that didn't use any. We're talking kiting fits, Rifter and how minnie has issues there atm, your "lulz implants yo, my Slasher goes into scram range and pops some fools" has zero meaning here. Also, your rifter fit gets killed by the first Executioner, condor or atron it runs into, which goes back to my original statement; Scram kiters are in trouble since the frigate rebalancing.
He said without links, and for reference:
[Slasher, PvP Anti-Inty]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
6.1km/s overheated This fit can easily run down all the other T1 long point kiters and demolish them before they can kill you, especially things like the Executioner and Atron because they will usually be using beams/rails so you can get under their guns easily, Condors not so much but those tend to be paper tanked.
but yeah, the Rifter is definitely in a sad spot and personally I haven't flown one for ages so I don't really know how it performs, but I was just confirming that the Slasher is pretty amazing.
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:Right now the T1 Minnie Frigates are quite lackluster.
As a pilot who has flown the Slasher/Firetail exclusively for a year now, I'm of the opinion that the biggest problem is damage projection. Falloff sounds great and all, but quiet often when matched up against many other Frigs you just don't have the tank to be operating in deep fall off (edge of scram if autocannon fit).
I'm not saying that the Minnie T1 Frigs are horrible, more just I think the damage projection is quiet lackluster. The Slasher DPS is laughable, Rifter slightly more and now slightly better damage projection in Frig vs Frig battles....
Overall, I would say meh.... it's was worth a look, but I'm certainly not going to fly to Jita to purchase some.
I probably am a little biased though, considering I have recently decided to cross-train into Amarr ships. Currently, the Minmatar ship line-up overall is just lackluster in comparison to the other races IMO.
I'd disagree on the Slasher, it's a pretty darn good ship IMO, I personally like the TD/AB/Scram fit, it's really quite good against many other fits. The Breacher is also an amazing ship, it can have a huge tank, quite good dps, is immune to TDs and scram kiting, and is also really fast, easily one of my favourite T1 frigs. It's only the Rifter that's lackluster IMO. |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Oh yes the Slasher is fine, I never said it wasn't. But kiting Slasher or Rifter makes no sense due to damage projection and the Rifter in and of itself is also in a poor state. I haven't stated anything else in this thread. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1571
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Right tool for the right job. Kitey opponent. Grab a slasher. (overdrive II and aux thruster rig on mine. No snakes or links needed). Brawler? Grab a scram range kiter ship.
Also - kiters at the frigate level tend to do very poorly as numbers go up. TD for a tank doesn't really work when multiple people are shooting at you. |
Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
897
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 07:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Well tbh most of the arguments above about speed etc are a waste of time.
in a kiter config the rifter will have enough speed to get into a 'workable' engagement range of the 'attack' frigs as it can project autocannon damage out past 20km range.
And everyone who's flown frigs for any length of time knows fine well you can scram fit a fast attack frig and chase down a kite setup frig. DUH! that is your rock to their scissors! That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 08:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Well tbh most of the arguments above about speed etc are a waste of time.
in a kiter config the rifter will have enough speed to get into a 'workable' engagement range of the 'attack' frigs as it can project autocannon damage out past 20km range.
And everyone who's flown frigs for any length of time knows fine well you can scram fit a fast attack frig and chase down a kite setup frig. DUH! that is your rock to their scissors!
It doesn't do even do 50dps@20km with 200mm AC, Barrage and any sort of realistic fit, that's about half what a Condor or Atron does while those are faster. What is any Rifter fit is going to do against an Atron which is roughly 800m/s faster, has close to 100dps@20km and is using a TD?
People keep just coming up with the "yeah I may be slower but I'll just slingshot" Yeah sure, against inexperienced pilots but against someone who is paying attention it won't happen. Stop bringing pilot quality into the equation :) Also being scram fit means you're going to get in trouble against AF and cruisers, which a kiter has no problems with.
It's not a kiter simply because there's now better T1 kiters out there and you see tons of them and while the falloff bonus is funky it doesn't help much if it's not fast enough. Picture a Vagabond that's slower than other cruisers and now picture trying to make a kiting fit work, it's silly.
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Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
897
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 11:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote:Well tbh most of the arguments above about speed etc are a waste of time.
in a kiter config the rifter will have enough speed to get into a 'workable' engagement range of the 'attack' frigs as it can project autocannon damage out past 20km range.
And everyone who's flown frigs for any length of time knows fine well you can scram fit a fast attack frig and chase down a kite setup frig. DUH! that is your rock to their scissors! It doesn't do even do 50dps@20km with 200mm AC, Barrage and any sort of realistic fit, that's about half what a Condor or Atron does while those are faster. What is any Rifter fit is going to do against an Atron which is roughly 800m/s faster, has close to 100dps@20km and is using a TD? People keep just coming up with the "yeah I may be slower but I'll just slingshot" Yeah sure, against inexperienced pilots but against someone who is paying attention it won't happen. Stop bringing pilot quality into the equation :) Also being scram fit means you're going to get in trouble against AF and cruisers, which a kiter has no problems with. It's not a kiter simply because there's now better T1 kiters out there and you see tons of them and while the falloff bonus is funky it doesn't help much if it's not fast enough. Picture a Vagabond that's slower than other cruisers and now picture trying to make a kiting fit work, it's silly.
You really are an argumentative sort aren't you
All this forum warrioring mean jack squat when you use these ships in game. Against said condor or atron? Easy I don't engage or catch them on a warp in.
BLAH BLAH BLAH This ship can kill that ship! With whatever hypothetical fits you want to sway the argument with is just that HYPOTHETICAL!
Simple fact of the matter OP is that rifters always have been viable solo pvp frigs and the recent changes make them even more so.
Don't listen to all the naysayers. If you want to fly the rifter get to it and have fun. However if you want the rifter to be the arguably OP 'king of frigs' from before then I'm afraid you will be disappointed.
Have fun. Fly dangerous, because safe is boring! That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 11:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
You state "lol AC@20km ftw easy yo" which is patently false, if you keep stating stuff that isn't true then someone will keep responding to it. Can it get kills? sure, but if you can choose a ship to use it won't be the Rifter other than being personally attached to the ship itself. Be objective and be factual, then the only conclusion is that the Rifter has been in a sorry state since the rebalance (proven by how CCP has chosen to work on its bonuses) and this new bonus isn't really solving its problems. |
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Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
898
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 12:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Actually I can't be bothered to forum scrap with an EFT warrior alt any more.
Have fun o7 That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 12:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
I'm sorry if stats and facts debunk your assumptions and statements :( |
thecunning mrfox
Darwin's response The Periphery
52
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Posted - 2014.03.13 13:31:00 -
[33] - Quote
Brilliant! thank you everyone for you input. Great discussion from you all.
As it's creating differing opinions, I think I can safely conclude that the Rifter is still viable as not everyone has said "go fly X instead" but isn't so OP that it has become the king of the small boat. which, for me at least, is kinda where we want to be with a good balance on frigate combat. I shall aim to exchange many for gf's in the future.
once again thanks all. Fly safe. Fox. |
Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
156
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 13:32:00 -
[34] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:I'm sorry if stats and facts debunk your assumptions and statements :(
You just dont know what you-¦re talking about. The rifter is very fast for an attack frigate and in 90% of the times where you engage a kitey ship in your scramrange attack frigate, you can either slingshot them into scramrange (lets say maybe 20%) or get out. With the rifter it is just a tad easier to do, because its just so fast, compared to other attack frigates.
The other 10% are linked #elitepvp tryhards that "solo pvp" with 3 accounts, mind you. |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 13:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Charlie Firpol wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:I'm sorry if stats and facts debunk your assumptions and statements :( You just dont know what you-¦re talking about. The rifter is very fast for an attack frigate and in 90% of the times where you engage a kitey ship in your scramrange attack frigate, you can either slingshot them into scramrange (lets say maybe 20%) or get out. With the rifter it is just a tad easier to do, because its just so fast, compared to other attack frigates. The other 10% are linked #elitepvp tryhards that "solo pvp" with 3 accounts, mind you.
Attack frigates are flawed because kiting frigs are just so good right now, so you're forced into scram range fights which means you can only deal with ships that are slower or roughly equal speed/agility (to catch them) or have bad pilots (which in a discussion about balance shouldn't be a factor). So which ships are slower than an Attack frig? Other attack frigs, AFs and cruiser +. When you look at other attack frigs then good luck taking on a Punisher or Merlin and against an AF (again, not assuming an idiot target) it won't work either. Cruisers will nuke/neut you.
The issue is that people who are good at pvp keep running into clowns with terrible SP, understanding, fits and experience and then, of course, win. And when that happens often enough they base their assumptions on their experience and yes, a well flown Rifter against an idiot/inexperienced Atron pilot the Rifter will win. But that doesn't mean the Rifter is awesome, it just means ppl choose to fight moron Atrons.
If you remove player quality from the equation an attack frig doesn't really do too well in the first place and the Rifter in particular was below par and still is below par. |
Bloodmyst Ranwar
War Toys Inc
31
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 13:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
4char |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
153
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 14:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Actually I can't be bothered to forum scrap with an EFT warrior alt any more.
Have fun o7
Stupid is.
To bad he spews his ignorance all over an otherwise good thread and turns it into a useless pile of garbage. |
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
71
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 16:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Confirming the Rifter is crap now. Please engage my Arty Rifter with all the received wisdom you can muster. That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 16:43:00 -
[39] - Quote
The Lobsters wrote:Confirming the Rifter is crap now. Please engage my Arty Rifter with all the received wisdom you can muster.
Ed. I did prepare a post on the merits of the new Rifter, complete with some fits, but I remembered this thread has been taken over by Battleclinic comments section eft warrior sh!tposter.
Currently flying in Verge if anyone wants some hands on Rifter debate.
lol
|
Hrett
Justified Chaos
364
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 17:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Charlie Firpol wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:I'm sorry if stats and facts debunk your assumptions and statements :( You just dont know what you-¦re talking about. The rifter is very fast for an attack frigate and in 90% of the times where you engage a kitey ship in your scramrange attack frigate, you can either slingshot them into scramrange (lets say maybe 20%) or get out. With the rifter it is just a tad easier to do, because its just so fast, compared to other attack frigates. The other 10% are linked #elitepvp tryhards that "solo pvp" with 3 accounts, mind you. Attack frigates are flawed because kiting frigs are just so good right now, so you're forced into scram range fights which means you can only deal with ships that are slower or roughly equal speed/agility (to catch them) or have bad pilots (which in a discussion about balance shouldn't be a factor). So which ships are slower than an Attack frig? Other attack frigs, AFs and cruiser +. When you look at other attack frigs then good luck taking on a Punisher or Merlin and against an AF (again, not assuming an idiot target) it won't work either. Cruisers will nuke/neut you. The issue is that people who are good at pvp keep running into clowns with terrible SP, understanding, fits and experience and then, of course, win. And when that happens often enough they base their assumptions on their experience and yes, a well flown Rifter against an idiot/inexperienced Atron pilot the Rifter will win. But that doesn't mean the Rifter is awesome, it just means ppl choose to fight moron Atrons. If you remove player quality from the equation an attack frig doesn't really do too well in the first place and the Rifter in particular was below par and still is below par.
I think the atron/condor/slasher are attack frigs. I think the rifter/incursus/punisher, etc are combat frigs? Maybe I am getting my definitions messed up. Anyway...
I dont know if you fly in FW or not, since you are on an alt, but you have to take battlespace into account too. In FW plexes you can often control the range where the fight starts. Either because you are already inside on the warp in, or you are about to warp in and can see what is inside on the plex. A scram is far more powerful in FW for this reason. You can catch and kill kiting frigates far more often because of the gate mechanic. Yes the kiters can always choose to run or not warp in, but believe it or not, some people actually take fights they arent supposed to win. Otherwise, what is the point?
The rifter is a fine frigate with a utility high that you can fit for dps or cap warfare. Its fast enough and has enough EHP. It will do ok DPS with barrage out to a reasonable distance against blaster/ac ships and it can can swap to phased plasma and get under the guns of everything else. It is extremely versatile. Just because it will have trouble with a LML Condor doesnt mean anything, because that ship is hyper-lame and all turret ships have trouble with it.
And I love the kiting Atron and fly it all of the time. Its DPS outside of scram range is anemic though, and it cant reliably kill anything in a reasonable amount of time. (I cant tell you how many times I have had to call for dps help to finish off my opponent in a fight that I wanted to be solo, but I shot the guy for 5 mins and couldnt break his tank). The kiting atron also doesnt have an active tank usually. It works fine against buffer ships that cant hit it, but the new AC rifter will be able to. Even though a rifter might only do 50 dps out that far, the rifter will have a SAR and the Atron wont, so it will eventually run the Atron off.
Rifter is fine. Its versatility is its strength. You will win some you will lose some, but it works just as well as the others. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
|
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
71
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 17:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:The Lobsters wrote:Confirming the Rifter is crap now. Please engage my Arty Rifter with all the received wisdom you can muster.
Ed. I did prepare a post on the merits of the new Rifter, complete with some fits, but I remembered this thread has been taken over by Battleclinic comments section eft warrior sh!tposter.
Currently flying in Verge if anyone wants some hands on Rifter debate. lol
LOL indeed. Sh1tposts killmails from an alt. Lets have a look at your killboard. Please, we'd all love a gander :)
Also, some things you should know.
1. I had been fighting a merlin so had emp loaded. 2. Crake jumped in and went for the nearest target, me. 3. The fight was close, it was a Good Fight 4. Crake is very good ( Yo Crake o7 ) 5. I will be no doubt having a rematch with Crake soon enough down here in brosec 6. If you are going to post KM's to prop up your forum drivel, post with you main so we can see your extensive authority on frigate pvp. 7. I am terrible, and I live in Ouelletta. Bro, at me , come That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 17:11:00 -
[42] - Quote
your Rifter will lose each and every time to a well flown kite/TD Atron. |
Gregor Parud
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 17:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Some good points
Try this fit;
[Atron, PVP Kite] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S [empty high slot]
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
|
Hrett
Justified Chaos
364
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 17:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Hrett wrote:Some good points Try this fit; [Atron, PVP Kite] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S [empty high slot] Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
That is actually exactly my fit. Sometimes I use a DCU instead of magstab. If you see a ship named "Atronishing" flying around, thats me. ;)
I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
71
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 17:33:00 -
[45] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:your Rifter will lose each and every time to a well flown kite/TD Atron.
Assuming the rifter pilot doesn't know what he's doing, I agree.
That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
Gregor Parud
302
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 18:59:00 -
[46] - Quote
The Lobsters wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:your Rifter will lose each and every time to a well flown kite/TD Atron. Assuming the rifter pilot doesn't know what he's doing, I agree.
You have twice the HP, less than 1/3rd of the dps at those range and lack the speed/agility to control the fight. So no, given equal situations in regards to piloting, SP, implants and links you won't win. |
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
71
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 19:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:The Lobsters wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:your Rifter will lose each and every time to a well flown kite/TD Atron. Assuming the rifter pilot doesn't know what he's doing, I agree. You have twice the HP, less than 1/3rd of the dps at those range and lack the speed/agility to control the fight. So no, given equal situations in regards to piloting, SP, implants and links you won't win.
PWYM or STFU
As it happens I'd have twice the ehp, 2/3rds the dps with titanium, track better and only be 850m/s slower, which in a kitey dog fight is enough to pilot close or break tackle. If you know what you're doing. I'd also be shooting kinetic and explosive into the atron's untanked resist holes. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, it would in fact be a good fight.
Put the eft down mate.
Anyway
Taoist Dragon wrote:Actually I can't be bothered to forum scrap with an EFT warrior alt any more.
Have fun o7
Bye thread, see you on battleclinic bro
o7 That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
Gregor Parud
302
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 20:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
The Lobsters wrote:As it happens I'd have twice the ehp, 2/3rds the dps with titanium, track better and only be 850m/s slower, which in a kitey dog fight is enough to pilot close or break tackle. If you know what you're doing. I'd also be shooting kinetic and explosive into the atron's untanked resist holes. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, it would in fact be a good fight.
Put the eft down mate.
I'm using your fit from your last Rifter loss.
There is no resist hole on that Atron as it's not tanked, has just about equal shield and armor while the rest is hull. Damage type wise you'd be better off using EMP or PP, not fusion or Titanium. Atron EHP towards Titanium is 1636, your EHP towards Thorium is 3557. so you have 2.17 the amount.
Now we look at the dps and apply the Atron's TD with range script to your Rifter and given that you need to get closer in we'll assume 90dps from the Atron so you need to average 90/2.17=41 dps. This happens at 16.4km so you have to AVERAGE that range, if you can't then you lose. Every second you spend outside that range you have to make up for within that range and since the Atron is more agile and faster than you this simply won't happen.
Given same skills, implants, links and piloting you won't win.
On the Atron fit, that actually makes really good sense. It doesn't change the outcome of this encounter (because dps numbers are so similar) but the overheating is a very good point. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
155
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 21:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:The Lobsters wrote:As it happens I'd have twice the ehp, 2/3rds the dps with titanium, track better and only be 850m/s slower, which in a kitey dog fight is enough to pilot close or break tackle. If you know what you're doing. I'd also be shooting kinetic and explosive into the atron's untanked resist holes. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, it would in fact be a good fight.
Put the eft down mate. I'm using your fit from your last Rifter loss. There is no resist hole on that Atron as it's not tanked, has just about equal shield and armor while the rest is hull. Damage type wise you'd be better off using EMP or PP, not fusion or Titanium. Atron EHP towards Titanium is 1636, your EHP towards Thorium is 3557. so you have 2.17 the amount. Now we look at the dps and apply the Atron's TD with range script to your Rifter and given that you need to get closer in we'll assume 90dps from the Atron so you need to average 90/2.17=41 dps. This happens at 16.4km so you have to AVERAGE that range, if you can't then you lose. Every second you spend outside that range you have to make up for within that range and since the Atron is more agile and faster than you this simply won't happen. Given same skills, implants, links and piloting you won't win. On the Atron fit, that actually makes really good sense. It doesn't change the outcome of this encounter (because dps numbers are so similar) but the overheating is a very good point.
All the stupid you can ever imagine. Isn't that right Damien.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=322300&find=unread
|
IP Freeely
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 02:06:00 -
[50] - Quote
I'm putting this in EFT (all skills to 5) and coming up a bit over on power and not quite that fast. Is this with implants? I'm curious as I'm new and this is an intriguing fit.
Cheers.
Dato Koppla wrote:
He said without links, and for reference:
[Slasher, PvP Anti-Inty]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
6.1km/s overheated This fit can easily run down all the other T1 long point kiters and demolish them before they can kill you, especially things like the Executioner and Atron because they will usually be using beams/rails so you can get under their guns easily, Condors not so much but those tend to be paper tanked.
but yeah, the Rifter is definitely in a sad spot and personally I haven't flown one for ages so I don't really know how it performs, but I was just confirming that the Slasher is pretty amazing.
|
|
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 02:22:00 -
[51] - Quote
IP Freeely wrote:I'm putting this in EFT (all skills to 5) and coming up a bit over on power and not quite that fast. Is this with implants? I'm curious as I'm new and this is an intriguing fit.
Cheers.
Overheat the MWD, should read 6117 m/s. It does go a bit over the PG so either buy a cheap 3% PG implant or use 125mm guns instead. I enjoyed eve until I went to the official forums and found out that the game is dying and I'm the reason why... |
Dato Koppla
Elite Guards Stealth Wear Inc.
508
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 02:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:IP Freeely wrote:I'm putting this in EFT (all skills to 5) and coming up a bit over on power and not quite that fast. Is this with implants? I'm curious as I'm new and this is an intriguing fit.
Cheers. Overheat the MWD, should read 6117 m/s. It does go a bit over the PG so either buy a cheap 3% PG implant or use 125mm guns instead.
Yeah it's a little over on PG, I didn't notice at first because I had genolution implants in which are cheap and really useful. It's definitely a good little ship though, with some good use of the neut and close orbiting you can also win against brawlers but it's quite iffy especially if the brawler is AB fit cause they'd likely break your tank before you can kill them. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1571
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 04:31:00 -
[53] - Quote
Atron and Condor fits are so well known at this point in time I don't know why people fight them if they are not in a specific counter. (A Kestrel can overheat to 136 DPS with a 781 alpha all the way out to 63 km. It can also fit an MSE at the same time and does hilarious things to most kiters)
Armor Rifters are the way to go. You can fit 200s and a rocket launcher, AB or MWD, SAAR or 200mm plate. It works well in packs with the plate and some logi support. 150ish DPS. The shield fits run into both power problems and CPU issues and as a result don't bring that much more range or DPS to the table. |
Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
39
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 07:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:The Lobsters wrote:Confirming the Rifter is crap now. Please engage my Arty Rifter with all the received wisdom you can muster.
Ed. I did prepare a post on the merits of the new Rifter, complete with some fits, but I remembered this thread has been taken over by Battleclinic comments section eft warrior sh!tposter.
Currently flying in Verge if anyone wants some hands on Rifter debate. lol
To be fair, you are using his fight vs. Crake Gaterau. Not sure if you know who Crake is. He is amongst the best pilot in Verge region - it does not really matter what he flies. He can kill my T3 even if he flies Velator.. |
Gregor Parud
303
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 09:03:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ciba Lexlulu wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:The Lobsters wrote:Confirming the Rifter is crap now. Please engage my Arty Rifter with all the received wisdom you can muster.
Ed. I did prepare a post on the merits of the new Rifter, complete with some fits, but I remembered this thread has been taken over by Battleclinic comments section eft warrior sh!tposter.
Currently flying in Verge if anyone wants some hands on Rifter debate. lol To be fair, you are using his fight vs. Crake Gaterau. Not sure if you know who Crake is. He is amongst the best pilot in Verge region - it does not really matter what he flies. He can kill my T3 even if he flies Velator..
Wasn't trying to be snarky or anything, but he went "my Rifter doesn't lose to a kite Atron" and literally the first Rifter loss I see of him is against a 150mm Atron :P in a, seemingly, solo encounter (EVE-kill had loading issues again so checked on BC).
The issue is that it IS about knowing how stuff really works and removing any sort of bias or (assumed) player skill, because we're talking about ship balancing. Lots of people assume stuff, lots of people are so used dealing with moron targets (or just ones worse than they are with less preparation, links or implants) that it colours their perception of how a ship performs. Like "if I overheat my MWD then I can catch him", yeah but what if the Atron isn't a ****** and overheats right from the start as well, for that very reason, then what?
Then there's many people who just only acknowledge their own situation and then are incapable of translating that to other's or "normal" situations. Someone who always sits in a FW complex waiting at the warp in point with a scram fit lolling at each and every kiting fit that warps in because he'll kill it easily and THEN goes "see, kiting fits don't win" is a fcking ******. Not saying this is there case here.
There's no difference between some clown in a all tank lvl 4 drake going "this works great because I didn't die", incapable and unwilling to look into optimising his game play, choices and dps and some PVPer going "well I kill noob [insert ship] all the time, this works great" when talking about balancing.
|
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 11:48:00 -
[56] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:
Wasn't trying to be snarky or anything, but he went "my Rifter doesn't lose to a kite Atron"
Yes you were and no I didn't.
And for extra Lol's, Crake wasn't even kite fit. He was ab/scram fit with an saar. There are many things about that fight that you wouldn't glean from the killmail. Crake won that fight because he saw his chance and took it, aggressively, as he should have. Hell, he didn't even have a long point. I lost that fight because the wrong ammo for it, had used up all my heat chasing the stabbed merlin and was hungry for a kill. It was close, one more volley would have finished him and that's what kept me in the fight. I always enjoy fighting Crake and I don't care about dieing to him because it's always a Good Fight. If he was nano fit he would have popped before he pulled range, TD or no.
My point is, as is others in this thread, It's easy to say "all other things being equal". Those platonic fight's only occur in eft-land. In the game you pilot boldly or use deception to get an advantage. The earlier in the fight the better. You can force the other guy to use his heat up sooner and pounce when you know he's only got a cycle left for example. Signal left, turn right and all that. Hold off on your rep cycle, take a bit of structure damage, let them get cocky or complacent, then facetank to victory. All that stuff.
Exploiting the received wisdom and bending the meta is the real game.
It's the man at the stick that gets the kill, not the load out screen. That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
Gregor Parud
303
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 11:50:00 -
[57] - Quote
Of course, but that has no place in a ship balancing discussion. |
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 11:57:00 -
[58] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Of course, but that has no place in a ship balancing discussion.
Say's the form alt who's too embarrassed about his killboard to post with his main. The irony. That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
Gregor Parud
303
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 12:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
Let me spell it out for your butthurt self.
The Lobsters wrote:My point is, as is others in this thread, It's easy to say "all other things being equal". Those platonic fight's only occur in eft-land. In the game you pilot boldly or use deception to get an advantage. The earlier in the fight the better. You can force the other guy to use his heat up sooner and pounce when you know he's only got a cycle left for example. Signal left, turn right and all that. Hold off on your rep cycle, take a bit of structure damage, let them get cocky or complacent, then facetank to victory. All that stuff.
This has no place in a ship balancing thread. |
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 12:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
Whatever luv, the thread's all yours. x imma gonna shoot me some crake. That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 12:19:00 -
[61] - Quote
I don't know what's the point of this discussion. The meta is pretty straightforward now : kiting > AB scram kite > MWD brawling > kiting
The Rifter make a very good MWD brawling frigate because of its speed and utility high. It should make a good kiter,because it's fast enough and arties have the alpha to compensate for their lower dps (it's more of the opposite IMO, low dps compensate for alpha).
And the change will push its scram kiting ability to a rather good level I think. The falloff will noticeably increase its range in all fit, and hence its dps. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1571
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 13:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with the Rifter's bonuses, slot layout, or speed and agility. The problem with the ship lies with it's fitting grid. It base PG of 38 is only superior to the Breacher and Kestrel which each have a 35 PG (and use missiles) and the Tristan at 30 (drone boat and only 9 slots). It's CPU at 125 is the lowest of any attack or combat frigate. What that means is that when you try to shield tank the Rifter - or heaven forbid fit it with arties, you usually have both PG and CPU issues. |
Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
163
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 13:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: If you remove player quality from the equation an attack frig doesn't really do too well in the first place and the Rifter in particular was below par and still is below par.
I see where you are coming from, but for ship balancing you shouldn-¦t try to talk about "perfectly flown ship" against "perfectly flown ship". In a frig fight, the winndows of opportunity for things like slingshotting, breaking disruptor range and getting out, etc are sooooooo small, most of the time slower than the 1 sec server ticks, that you will basically never get a perfect fight.
So, if you try to argue against people that don-¦t do much else than pvping solo or in small gangs and that have a ton of hands-on experience, then you better bring some better arguments than "but my EFT sais so". |
Gregor Parud
303
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 13:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Charlie Firpol wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: If you remove player quality from the equation an attack frig doesn't really do too well in the first place and the Rifter in particular was below par and still is below par.
I see where you are coming from, but for ship balancing you shouldn-¦t try to talk about "perfectly flown ship" against "perfectly flown ship". In a frig fight, the winndows of opportunity for things like slingshotting, breaking disruptor range and getting out, etc are sooooooo small, most of the time slower than the 1 sec server ticks, that you will basically never get a perfect fight. So, if you try to argue against people that don-¦t do much else than pvping solo or in small gangs and that have a ton of hands-on experience, then you better bring some better arguments than "but my EFT sais so".
You're assuming that because I stick to theory and stats I, thus, don't know how it works "in reality". I do, I just choose to remove any such variables from the equation when we're talking about ship balancing because allowing such variables is a slippery slope possibly ending in personal bias.
Would the thread be about "how to fly this Rifter" or "how to make it work" then yes, we'll be talking about little tricks, how to optimise your sling shotting etc but we're not; we're talking about if ship A is on par with ship B and as such you have to look at them as "clean" as possible, focussing on stats and numbers. |
Gregor Parud
303
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 13:57:00 -
[65] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:There is nothing wrong with the Rifter's bonuses, slot layout, or speed and agility. The problem with the ship lies with it's fitting grid. It base PG of 38 is only superior to the Breacher and Kestrel which each have a 35 PG (and use missiles) and the Tristan at 30 (drone boat and only 9 slots). It's CPU at 125 is the lowest of any attack or combat frigate. What that means is that when you try to shield tank the Rifter - or heaven forbid fit it with arties, you usually have both PG and CPU issues.
I still think it would be solved if arty as a whole would get like 10% more dps (but removing some alpha to keep it in check), becaus it would not only solve the Rifter's problems but also the slasher's and other ships. |
Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
164
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Posted - 2014.03.14 14:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: Would the thread be about "how to fly this Rifter" or "how to make it work" then yes, we'll be talking about little tricks, how to optimise your sling shotting etc but we're not; we're talking about if ship A is on par with ship B and as such you have to look at them as "clean" as possible, focussing on stats and numbers.
If you would have to balance for a clean environment, you would be right. Fights in this game are everything but clean though. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
263
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Posted - 2014.03.14 14:15:00 -
[67] - Quote
In this thread:
People complaining about a T1 frigate not being a solo-pwn-mobile in every scenario.
Rifter was fine back then, Rifter was still fine after Frigate Rebalance, and i'll just say the new Rifter is also fine. It certainly has strengths, and in every fit it certainly has weaknesses. Key to success is knowing your own strengths and weaknesses, aswell as those of your enemy. One of the Rifter's big strenghtes is that almost everybody thinks it's **** nowadays. Every damn Slasher will happily engage you in it's standard Web/Scram/TD setup, and every damn Slasher that is fit that way can be beaten up by a Rifter with relative ease, or at least could back then. Not sure how it's now with the tracking bonus gone, but that changes it's flavor, opens new targets.
The Rifter can, like a Firetail for example, basically do anything. Use this strength. Same guy, same ship, different fits, and the Condor that just saw you running away is suddenly getting stomped by it.
It's like with everything else: Know what you can take, kill it, stay away from everything else. |
Gregor Parud
303
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Posted - 2014.03.14 15:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
Charlie Firpol wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: Would the thread be about "how to fly this Rifter" or "how to make it work" then yes, we'll be talking about little tricks, how to optimise your sling shotting etc but we're not; we're talking about if ship A is on par with ship B and as such you have to look at them as "clean" as possible, focussing on stats and numbers.
If you would have to balance for a clean environment, you would be right. Fights in this game are everything but clean though.
Yes but since both "sides" can do it (which side is the smarter, better prepared pilot) it becomes a variable you can't control. "I know what I'm doing and have a bag of tricks, my target is clueless and stupid and doesn't use gang links/implants" is hardly something you want to incorporate into balancing discussions.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1002
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Posted - 2014.03.15 00:27:00 -
[69] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Ava Starfire
Gradient
1487
|
Posted - 2014.03.15 13:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
3x 200mm AC II Offline whatever for heat
Meta MSE Faint Warp Disruptor Limited MWD
Gyro II Meta TE Meta DCU (Pseudo)
Ambit Extender rig ACR rig (So it needs a fitting rig. So do LOTS of ships)
3.3k/sec isnt slow. 109 @ 19 or 137 at 12 doesnt suck.
The armor fit listed above by Zarnak is still better MOST OF THE TIME (I still prefer it with a 200 plate over the resist plating) and it does everything it used to do better. Is the current meta changed by the rifter? No.
Is the rifter particularly good at the current meta? No.
You know, that being said, I fly falloff wolves a lot, that are a full 1k slower than that rifter above, and I've done famously well in them. It isnt all about speed, even when kiting.
Can it purely kite as well as a condor? No.
Can a kitey condor go in close and survive, like the above rifter fits? No. "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
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Crake Gaterau
Screaming Hayabusa
21
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Posted - 2014.04.02 20:08:00 -
[71] - Quote
The Lobsters wrote:Whatever luv, the thread's all yours. x imma gonna shoot me some crake.
YOU BASTARD!
<3 |
God's Apples
Aunenen Civil Liberties Union
359
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 21:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:3x 200mm AC II Offline whatever for heat
Meta MSE Faint Warp Disruptor Limited MWD
Gyro II Meta TE Meta DCU (Pseudo)
Ambit Extender rig ACR rig (So it needs a fitting rig. So do LOTS of ships)
3.3k/sec isnt slow. 109 @ 19 or 137 at 12 doesnt suck.
You, as well as everyone else in this thread, don't understand how falloff works. You do 109 dps with barrage at 1km. At 19km (which is pretty close for a kiting frig to go against you) you're doing ~50 dps. At the edge of point range you're not even doing 30 dps. At that range you can't even break a merlin's passive recharge and an incursus can perma tank you with a t2 sar off of cap recharge and almost perma tank you with an AAR and no nanite. |
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
173
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Posted - 2014.04.03 00:09:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:3x 200mm AC II Offline whatever for heat
Meta MSE Faint Warp Disruptor Limited MWD
Gyro II Meta TE Meta DCU (Pseudo)
Ambit Extender rig ACR rig (So it needs a fitting rig. So do LOTS of ships)
3.3k/sec isnt slow. 109 @ 19 or 137 at 12 doesnt suck.
I'd have to concur with God's here. The AC barrage kiting Rifter can't do much more than annoy people. It does much better AB fit fighting between 12-16.
I have been having a lot of fun it this thing :-
[Rifter, 280mm Arty mwd mse]
Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion S [Empty High slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
3808 m/s (5451 O/H), align 3.64 sec
O/H 70 DPS @ 20km, volley 629
3.55k ehp
Being arty, the dps doesn't describe it's effectiveness that well, but that volley really stick's it up em' :)
Dps with DU or Titanium @ 20 km is similar, with the tracking bonus of course.
The best reason to fly it is that it isn't expected, and as with all high volley fits it can startle people and put the pressure on their flying skills and gameplan. I've been enjoying a similar effect with an AB/Scram/LML Kessy lately too.
This does need a CA-1, CA-2, a +3PG and a Zor to get those numbers, but they aren't anything uncommon. Some might say that's standard. That it needs all that to fit is an issue with the fitting req's of small artillery, which is probably a topic for another thread.
Can it do the kitey thing as well as a condor? No. But that's all the condor really does. It's boring, predictable and something any mug can pull off. It does reward flying ability more than a Condor ever could, and has the advantage of appearing weaker than it actually is.
That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1619
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 04:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
I will just point out that a Kestrel puts out a 781 Alpha all the way to 63 km. 136 DPS overheated. Meta MSE. Only one fitting module needed. An Arty Rifter just can't compare to that.
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Hrett
Justified Chaos
365
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Posted - 2014.04.03 05:45:00 -
[75] - Quote
On the ac discussion - I dont think barrage should be a primary choice for an ac rifter, but it is nice to be able to 50ish dps out to ~20k in a pinch. It aint the best, but its better than nothing. There are some kite frigs that fight in that area that have no tank at all so 50 dps can run them off sometimes. I dont fly laser ships, but with blasters you dont even have that option. I fought a neutron/null incursus earlier and it was doing ****-all dps at 7.5kish. Not sure how far small gun scorch hits.
I like the Rifter. Its a solid ship that does good dps and has good ehp. The thing that makes it really good is the damage type and range selection abilities. Plus the ability to fit a single rocket for extra dps. Not every utility high has to be fit with a neut. The ability to load fusion/nova against a gallente ship, for example, really make the Rifter's bite even better. And in a frigate fight, those small things make a huge difference. In certain Gallente setups, there are hard-counters that you run into, and if you guess the enemy fit wrong, you are just flat screwed. The AC rifter has some options at least out to 20k, and can engage more ships because of that ability. Just my opinion.
I'd like to try an arty Rifter, but I had severe fitting issues when I tried to come up with one. Seemed less viable But Ill give the one Lobsters posted a shot. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2040
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Posted - 2014.04.04 21:41:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sure it will be viable
It won't be good but it won't be as hilariously bad as it is now.. (I'd like to stress that it will still not be good) BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
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