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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
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Posted - 2014.03.14 12:19:00 -
[61] - Quote
I don't know what's the point of this discussion. The meta is pretty straightforward now : kiting > AB scram kite > MWD brawling > kiting
The Rifter make a very good MWD brawling frigate because of its speed and utility high. It should make a good kiter,because it's fast enough and arties have the alpha to compensate for their lower dps (it's more of the opposite IMO, low dps compensate for alpha).
And the change will push its scram kiting ability to a rather good level I think. The falloff will noticeably increase its range in all fit, and hence its dps. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1571
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Posted - 2014.03.14 13:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with the Rifter's bonuses, slot layout, or speed and agility. The problem with the ship lies with it's fitting grid. It base PG of 38 is only superior to the Breacher and Kestrel which each have a 35 PG (and use missiles) and the Tristan at 30 (drone boat and only 9 slots). It's CPU at 125 is the lowest of any attack or combat frigate. What that means is that when you try to shield tank the Rifter - or heaven forbid fit it with arties, you usually have both PG and CPU issues. |
Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
163
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Posted - 2014.03.14 13:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: If you remove player quality from the equation an attack frig doesn't really do too well in the first place and the Rifter in particular was below par and still is below par.
I see where you are coming from, but for ship balancing you shouldn-Št try to talk about "perfectly flown ship" against "perfectly flown ship". In a frig fight, the winndows of opportunity for things like slingshotting, breaking disruptor range and getting out, etc are sooooooo small, most of the time slower than the 1 sec server ticks, that you will basically never get a perfect fight.
So, if you try to argue against people that don-Št do much else than pvping solo or in small gangs and that have a ton of hands-on experience, then you better bring some better arguments than "but my EFT sais so". |
Gregor Parud
303
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Posted - 2014.03.14 13:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Charlie Firpol wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: If you remove player quality from the equation an attack frig doesn't really do too well in the first place and the Rifter in particular was below par and still is below par.
I see where you are coming from, but for ship balancing you shouldn-Št try to talk about "perfectly flown ship" against "perfectly flown ship". In a frig fight, the winndows of opportunity for things like slingshotting, breaking disruptor range and getting out, etc are sooooooo small, most of the time slower than the 1 sec server ticks, that you will basically never get a perfect fight. So, if you try to argue against people that don-Št do much else than pvping solo or in small gangs and that have a ton of hands-on experience, then you better bring some better arguments than "but my EFT sais so".
You're assuming that because I stick to theory and stats I, thus, don't know how it works "in reality". I do, I just choose to remove any such variables from the equation when we're talking about ship balancing because allowing such variables is a slippery slope possibly ending in personal bias.
Would the thread be about "how to fly this Rifter" or "how to make it work" then yes, we'll be talking about little tricks, how to optimise your sling shotting etc but we're not; we're talking about if ship A is on par with ship B and as such you have to look at them as "clean" as possible, focussing on stats and numbers. |
Gregor Parud
303
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Posted - 2014.03.14 13:57:00 -
[65] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:There is nothing wrong with the Rifter's bonuses, slot layout, or speed and agility. The problem with the ship lies with it's fitting grid. It base PG of 38 is only superior to the Breacher and Kestrel which each have a 35 PG (and use missiles) and the Tristan at 30 (drone boat and only 9 slots). It's CPU at 125 is the lowest of any attack or combat frigate. What that means is that when you try to shield tank the Rifter - or heaven forbid fit it with arties, you usually have both PG and CPU issues.
I still think it would be solved if arty as a whole would get like 10% more dps (but removing some alpha to keep it in check), becaus it would not only solve the Rifter's problems but also the slasher's and other ships. |
Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
164
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Posted - 2014.03.14 14:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: Would the thread be about "how to fly this Rifter" or "how to make it work" then yes, we'll be talking about little tricks, how to optimise your sling shotting etc but we're not; we're talking about if ship A is on par with ship B and as such you have to look at them as "clean" as possible, focussing on stats and numbers.
If you would have to balance for a clean environment, you would be right. Fights in this game are everything but clean though. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
263
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Posted - 2014.03.14 14:15:00 -
[67] - Quote
In this thread:
People complaining about a T1 frigate not being a solo-pwn-mobile in every scenario.
Rifter was fine back then, Rifter was still fine after Frigate Rebalance, and i'll just say the new Rifter is also fine. It certainly has strengths, and in every fit it certainly has weaknesses. Key to success is knowing your own strengths and weaknesses, aswell as those of your enemy. One of the Rifter's big strenghtes is that almost everybody thinks it's **** nowadays. Every damn Slasher will happily engage you in it's standard Web/Scram/TD setup, and every damn Slasher that is fit that way can be beaten up by a Rifter with relative ease, or at least could back then. Not sure how it's now with the tracking bonus gone, but that changes it's flavor, opens new targets.
The Rifter can, like a Firetail for example, basically do anything. Use this strength. Same guy, same ship, different fits, and the Condor that just saw you running away is suddenly getting stomped by it.
It's like with everything else: Know what you can take, kill it, stay away from everything else. |
Gregor Parud
303
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Posted - 2014.03.14 15:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
Charlie Firpol wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: Would the thread be about "how to fly this Rifter" or "how to make it work" then yes, we'll be talking about little tricks, how to optimise your sling shotting etc but we're not; we're talking about if ship A is on par with ship B and as such you have to look at them as "clean" as possible, focussing on stats and numbers.
If you would have to balance for a clean environment, you would be right. Fights in this game are everything but clean though.
Yes but since both "sides" can do it (which side is the smarter, better prepared pilot) it becomes a variable you can't control. "I know what I'm doing and have a bag of tricks, my target is clueless and stupid and doesn't use gang links/implants" is hardly something you want to incorporate into balancing discussions.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1002
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Posted - 2014.03.15 00:27:00 -
[69] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Ava Starfire
Gradient
1487
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Posted - 2014.03.15 13:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
3x 200mm AC II Offline whatever for heat
Meta MSE Faint Warp Disruptor Limited MWD
Gyro II Meta TE Meta DCU (Pseudo)
Ambit Extender rig ACR rig (So it needs a fitting rig. So do LOTS of ships)
3.3k/sec isnt slow. 109 @ 19 or 137 at 12 doesnt suck.
The armor fit listed above by Zarnak is still better MOST OF THE TIME (I still prefer it with a 200 plate over the resist plating) and it does everything it used to do better. Is the current meta changed by the rifter? No.
Is the rifter particularly good at the current meta? No.
You know, that being said, I fly falloff wolves a lot, that are a full 1k slower than that rifter above, and I've done famously well in them. It isnt all about speed, even when kiting.
Can it purely kite as well as a condor? No.
Can a kitey condor go in close and survive, like the above rifter fits? No. "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
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Crake Gaterau
Screaming Hayabusa
21
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Posted - 2014.04.02 20:08:00 -
[71] - Quote
The Lobsters wrote:Whatever luv, the thread's all yours. x imma gonna shoot me some crake.
YOU BASTARD!
<3 |
God's Apples
Aunenen Civil Liberties Union
359
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Posted - 2014.04.02 21:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:3x 200mm AC II Offline whatever for heat
Meta MSE Faint Warp Disruptor Limited MWD
Gyro II Meta TE Meta DCU (Pseudo)
Ambit Extender rig ACR rig (So it needs a fitting rig. So do LOTS of ships)
3.3k/sec isnt slow. 109 @ 19 or 137 at 12 doesnt suck.
You, as well as everyone else in this thread, don't understand how falloff works. You do 109 dps with barrage at 1km. At 19km (which is pretty close for a kiting frig to go against you) you're doing ~50 dps. At the edge of point range you're not even doing 30 dps. At that range you can't even break a merlin's passive recharge and an incursus can perma tank you with a t2 sar off of cap recharge and almost perma tank you with an AAR and no nanite. |
The Lobsters
WE FIGHT
173
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Posted - 2014.04.03 00:09:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:3x 200mm AC II Offline whatever for heat
Meta MSE Faint Warp Disruptor Limited MWD
Gyro II Meta TE Meta DCU (Pseudo)
Ambit Extender rig ACR rig (So it needs a fitting rig. So do LOTS of ships)
3.3k/sec isnt slow. 109 @ 19 or 137 at 12 doesnt suck.
I'd have to concur with God's here. The AC barrage kiting Rifter can't do much more than annoy people. It does much better AB fit fighting between 12-16.
I have been having a lot of fun it this thing :-
[Rifter, 280mm Arty mwd mse]
Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion S [Empty High slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
3808 m/s (5451 O/H), align 3.64 sec
O/H 70 DPS @ 20km, volley 629
3.55k ehp
Being arty, the dps doesn't describe it's effectiveness that well, but that volley really stick's it up em' :)
Dps with DU or Titanium @ 20 km is similar, with the tracking bonus of course.
The best reason to fly it is that it isn't expected, and as with all high volley fits it can startle people and put the pressure on their flying skills and gameplan. I've been enjoying a similar effect with an AB/Scram/LML Kessy lately too.
This does need a CA-1, CA-2, a +3PG and a Zor to get those numbers, but they aren't anything uncommon. Some might say that's standard. That it needs all that to fit is an issue with the fitting req's of small artillery, which is probably a topic for another thread.
Can it do the kitey thing as well as a condor? No. But that's all the condor really does. It's boring, predictable and something any mug can pull off. It does reward flying ability more than a Condor ever could, and has the advantage of appearing weaker than it actually is.
That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1619
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Posted - 2014.04.03 04:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
I will just point out that a Kestrel puts out a 781 Alpha all the way to 63 km. 136 DPS overheated. Meta MSE. Only one fitting module needed. An Arty Rifter just can't compare to that.
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Hrett
Justified Chaos
365
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Posted - 2014.04.03 05:45:00 -
[75] - Quote
On the ac discussion - I dont think barrage should be a primary choice for an ac rifter, but it is nice to be able to 50ish dps out to ~20k in a pinch. It aint the best, but its better than nothing. There are some kite frigs that fight in that area that have no tank at all so 50 dps can run them off sometimes. I dont fly laser ships, but with blasters you dont even have that option. I fought a neutron/null incursus earlier and it was doing ****-all dps at 7.5kish. Not sure how far small gun scorch hits.
I like the Rifter. Its a solid ship that does good dps and has good ehp. The thing that makes it really good is the damage type and range selection abilities. Plus the ability to fit a single rocket for extra dps. Not every utility high has to be fit with a neut. The ability to load fusion/nova against a gallente ship, for example, really make the Rifter's bite even better. And in a frigate fight, those small things make a huge difference. In certain Gallente setups, there are hard-counters that you run into, and if you guess the enemy fit wrong, you are just flat screwed. The AC rifter has some options at least out to 20k, and can engage more ships because of that ability. Just my opinion.
I'd like to try an arty Rifter, but I had severe fitting issues when I tried to come up with one. Seemed less viable But Ill give the one Lobsters posted a shot. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2040
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Posted - 2014.04.04 21:41:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sure it will be viable
It won't be good but it won't be as hilariously bad as it is now.. (I'd like to stress that it will still not be good) BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
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