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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
Ran
Merhn Ghostly Fleet
0
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Posted - 2014.02.07 19:25:00 -
[811] - Quote
i thing - It's a bad idea. Make its possible to warp on centrydrones |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
516
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Posted - 2014.02.07 19:26:00 -
[812] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Dave Stark wrote:If the drone limit is kept at 50, and people in incursions will potentially have to manually assign drones. will we get a third set of tags for frigates? currently we have letters and numbers and they're used for sniper and dps targets.
what are we going to use to tag frigates with? ctrl-x ? will be honest, i'm unfamiliar with that shortcut.
forgive me I mean to say X-click. i.e. designate a target in the overview.
But to widen the subject a little, I appreciate that people like to run incursions and the name of the game is maximisation of riskless return. My view is that while it seems appealing to be able to earn 100m isk per hour in hisec with no real risk of loss, it is not good for eve.
A change that reduces that to 99m isk per hour is a (small) step in the right direction.
My personal (considered) view is that all incursions add to the game is monetary inflation. There is no skill involved since the sites are formulaic. After running a few I was bored to tears.
I have no problem with the idea of a pvp-like form of pve in eve, but incursions in their current form do not provide this experience.
If common sense prevails and drone assist is eventually removed, the small impact on incursion income is not really a factor that should be considered, in my view.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Dave Stark
4333
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Posted - 2014.02.07 19:33:00 -
[813] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Dave Stark wrote:If the drone limit is kept at 50, and people in incursions will potentially have to manually assign drones. will we get a third set of tags for frigates? currently we have letters and numbers and they're used for sniper and dps targets.
what are we going to use to tag frigates with? ctrl-x ? will be honest, i'm unfamiliar with that shortcut. forgive me I mean to say X-click. i.e. designate a target in the overview. But to widen the subject a little, I appreciate that people like to run incursions and the name of the game is maximisation of riskless return. My view is that while it seems appealing to be able to earn 100m isk per hour in hisec with no real risk of loss, it is not good for eve. A change that reduces that to 99m isk per hour is a (small) step in the right direction. My personal (considered) view is that all incursions add to the game is monetary inflation. There is no skill involved since the sites are formulaic. After running a few I was bored to tears. I have no problem with the idea of a pvp-like form of pve in eve, but incursions in their current form do not provide this experience. If common sense prevails and drone assist is eventually removed, the small impact on incursion income is not really a factor that should be considered, in my view.
lock times are long in battleships; tags let you lock multiple things to minimise time switching between targets. doing it one by one means you're waiting for lock times in addition to the death of the previous ships. that's why things are tagged, not broadcasted currently. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
488
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Posted - 2014.02.07 19:40:00 -
[814] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:If the drone limit is kept at 50, and people in incursions will potentially have to manually assign drones. will we get a third set of tags for frigates? currently we have letters and numbers and they're used for sniper and dps targets.
what are we going to use to tag frigates with?
Really? That is a concern? Why not use A-M = sniper targets and N-Z = DDD targets? Or put DDD in own squad and broadcast targets to squad in order? Oh, right, I forgot, that would be :effort: I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |
Dave Stark
4333
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Posted - 2014.02.07 19:53:00 -
[815] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Dave Stark wrote:If the drone limit is kept at 50, and people in incursions will potentially have to manually assign drones. will we get a third set of tags for frigates? currently we have letters and numbers and they're used for sniper and dps targets.
what are we going to use to tag frigates with? Really? That is a concern? Why not use A-M = sniper targets and N-Z = DDD targets? Or put DDD in own squad and broadcast targets to squad in order? Oh, right, I forgot, that would be :effort:
alternatively why should we have to faff around when there's already a perfectly fine, but limited, mechanic for this sort of thing?
then again they could have just not put the limit at 50 and actually realised there are 200 drones in an incursion fleet and set the limit accordingly since they didn't want to mess up incursions but yeah. whatever.
for a feedback thread there's really a lot of shitting on people for asking legitimate questions about an idea that hasn't been fully finished. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2937
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Posted - 2014.02.07 20:07:00 -
[816] - Quote
So I'm gonna make my first post of the thread here.
Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change? Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4623
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Posted - 2014.02.07 20:14:00 -
[817] - Quote
mynnna wrote:So I'm gonna make my first post of the thread here.
Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change?
Because of reasons. Don't you know that?
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Dave Stark
4333
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Posted - 2014.02.07 20:20:00 -
[818] - Quote
mynnna wrote:So I'm gonna make my first post of the thread here.
Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change?
ignoring blobs of carriers, why should we have to change drone assist at all? |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
598
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Posted - 2014.02.07 20:23:00 -
[819] - Quote
mynnna wrote:So I'm gonna make my first post of the thread here.
Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change? Because reasons, and stuff, and I'm going to take my eleventy different alts and unsub all of them, and pout in a corner if CCP doesn't stop nerfing my things that make me loads of ISKies in almost complete safety. "it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka-á |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2937
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Posted - 2014.02.07 20:31:00 -
[820] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:mynnna wrote:So I'm gonna make my first post of the thread here.
Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change? ignoring blobs of carriers, why should we have to change drone assist at all? So no, there isn't an explanation for the entitlement, then? Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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Snow Axe
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1452
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Posted - 2014.02.07 20:31:00 -
[821] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change?
Rise seemed to agree, why else would he even single out the incursion community in his post? Oh right, we have to ignore that for this little "lol highsec" circlejerk exercise. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Dave Stark
4333
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Posted - 2014.02.07 20:38:00 -
[822] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Dave Stark wrote:mynnna wrote:So I'm gonna make my first post of the thread here.
Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change? ignoring blobs of carriers, why should we have to change drone assist at all? So no, there isn't an explanation for the entitlement, then? there isn't any entitlement anyway, then again ignoring half of the facts to pose a rhetorical question was hardly going to lead to a worth while answer or discussion. we both know that.
there's a contradiction we've asked for clarification on, then i asked a totally separate question relating to expanding a current mechanic to make up for rise's butchery of a game mechanic that currently isn't causing any issues.
just for the sake of having a pointless rhetorical question in the post; why must incursion runners suffer a crap change just to appease a few whining 0.0 dwellers? |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2938
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 20:39:00 -
[823] - Quote
CCP's been known to tweak before, y'know. Put a good enough explanation forward and maybe it'll happen here, too, but "we like it this way and don't want to change" probably won't cut it. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
516
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Posted - 2014.02.07 20:41:00 -
[824] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:mynnna wrote:So I'm gonna make my first post of the thread here.
Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change? ignoring blobs of carriers, why should we have to change drone assist at all?
Because drone assist is legalised botting. Weren't you listening?
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Dave Stark
4333
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 20:42:00 -
[825] - Quote
mynnna wrote:CCP's been known to tweak before, y'know. Put a good enough explanation forward and maybe it'll happen here, too, but "we like it this way and don't want to change" probably won't cut it.
i don't need to put an argument forward; rise already said he especially doesn't want to negatively impact incursion runners. he's the one that wants it, not us. we're just asking why his changes don't reflect his stance. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
507
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Posted - 2014.02.07 21:23:00 -
[826] - Quote
mynnna wrote:CCP's been known to tweak before, y'know. Put a good enough explanation forward and maybe it'll happen here, too, but "we like it this way and don't want to change" probably won't cut it.
unlikely to tweak it down to removing it altogether, despite that being the sensible thing to do |
Chorianda
Naga Stole My Bike.
0
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Posted - 2014.02.07 21:27:00 -
[827] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change? Why should we ignore what he said?
CCP Rise wrote:there are several use-cases for assist that we wanted to preserve, such as incursion drone managers The proposed change fails to preserve this use-case, as incursion drone managers in HQ sites routinely manage close to 200 light drones. This works well, and while change may be necessary for some reason unrelated to incursions, it is patently false that a 50 drone limit preserves the use-case that CCP Rise said he wanted to preserve.
I take this statement of intent at face value. It's not a question of entitlement, he stated clearly that he did not want to change this use-case. Perhaps he doesn't understand that his design failed in meeting his criteria, or perhaps he regards this as a compromise. I don't know, and I'd like to hear more from him on this point.
It seems to me that a design, whether based on bandwidth or some other method, that limited drone assist more severely for sentries and allowed larger numbers of light drones would better meet the criteria as I understand them. I'm sure that's more difficult to implement, so I would understand if he simply said, you're right, but it's too hard to do that right now, maybe we'll do better in the future. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2235
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Posted - 2014.02.07 21:32:00 -
[828] - Quote
mynnna wrote:CCP's been known to tweak before, y'know. Put a good enough explanation forward and maybe it'll happen here, too, but "we like it this way and don't want to change" probably won't cut it.
Why wouldn't it?
Thats what CCP does with the Features and Ideas Discussion section. Its not about discussion, its about CCP dropping some assclown change in our lap and going " ok this is it deal with it" no matter what the player base says about the change.
This very thread is a perfect example of that.
Sentry drones haven't ever received any mechanical changes in any iteration they've done, the only thing thats changed is the Domi and the Ishtar, and yet suddenly they act like something changed in Sentry Drone mechanics to create some kind of imbalance thats being abused, which needs a change to drones, and not the catalyst that actually caused the rampant use: the Domi and Ishtar.
It is in effect you shooting somebody with a gun and me ignoring you and trying to blame it all on the gun.
CCP made changes, and when I say that I mean Kil2 and Fozzie made changes that they KNEW would break the game when they buffed the Domi and Damps as hard as they did. I've even been told that when warned about it all they did was smile, and now instead of owning their own retardation they're just brushing it all aside and moving on like they're not at all responsible, while at the same time completely destroying player made systems that have been around forever to cover their own ineptitude at balancing things.
And instead of opening a dialouge with the players about it they ask the "CSM" which is made up largely of people fighting a group that uses sentry drones. I'm sure the feed back given was totally accurate and non biased and I'm sure that progod was very articulate in his ramblings.
The end result is the developers doing exactly what you're telling the player base they shouldn't: Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Grant Sirus
Maekon Mercenaries
20
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Posted - 2014.02.07 21:57:00 -
[829] - Quote
Either grow a pair and completely remove the entire drone assist mechanic because it leads to passive gameplay, or leave well enough alone. The hard cap will no doubt cause more issues leading to lag (EG: assist player x... drones can't; assist player y...drones can't; assist player z... and so on until they get to one that can) |
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
245
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:04:00 -
[830] - Quote
Grant Sirus wrote:Either grow a pair and completely remove the entire drone assist mechanic because it leads to passive gameplay, or leave well enough alone. The hard cap will no doubt cause more issues leading to lag (EG: assist player x... drones can't; assist player y...drones can't; assist player z... and so on until they get to one that can)
And make it so they do not move! With hundreds of sentries on grid our clients (and no doubt, the server) would be better off not calculating and being told of each sentry's new position as they chug at 1ms towards whatever they're shooting at. |
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4416
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:18:00 -
[831] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Sentry drones haven't ever received any mechanical changes in any iteration they've done, the only thing thats changed is the Domi and the Ishtar, and yet suddenly they act like something changed in Sentry Drone mechanics to create some kind of imbalance thats being abused, which needs a change to drones, and not the catalyst that actually caused the rampant use: the Domi and Ishtar.
I don't think that is totally true. What also changed is that folks got richer and more people could afford to fly (and lose?) a carrier.
Grath Telkin wrote:And instead of opening a dialouge with the players about it they ask the "CSM" which is made up largely of people fighting a group that uses sentry drones. I'm sure the feed back given was totally accurate and non biased and I'm sure that progod was very articulate in his ramblings.
If only PL had some representative on this "CSM"...
(you should have made Elise run again, no way sentries would have been nerfed if he had showed up for the summit in that white suit of his) CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Walker Ahashion
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:20:00 -
[832] - Quote
Whats CCP Rise / CSM / Fox News got in common?
They're all For Fairness and balanceGǪGǪ |
Ravcharas
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
287
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:22:00 -
[833] - Quote
Adding drone damage mods probably didn't help curb drone usage |
Sheeana Harb
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
18
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:32:00 -
[834] - Quote
mynnna wrote:So I'm gonna make my first post of the thread here.
Ignore what Rise said about "not affecting incursioners" for a moment. Can someone explain to me why incursion runners think they're entitled be exempted having to adapt to change?
I find your attitude in this post disgusting. CCP employee mentioned the desite not to affect incursioners, yet the change clearly does. That should be THE reason on its own to voice my opinion. I, as an incursioner, am concerned that 50 drone limit will (without any doubt) negatively affect my experience even though proposed bandwith limit is objectively better. Not mentioning incursions have in no way invoked the need for this drone limit. |
Sheeana Harb
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
18
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:44:00 -
[835] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:mynnna wrote:CCP's been known to tweak before, y'know. Put a good enough explanation forward and maybe it'll happen here, too, but "we like it this way and don't want to change" probably won't cut it. i don't need to put an argument forward; rise already said he especially doesn't want to negatively impact incursion runners. he's the one that wants it, not us. we're just asking why his changes don't reflect his stance.
Spot on answer, thank you and hats down. I can't agree more. If i were skeptical, it would seem to me that 'some' members of CSM are just fine with collateral damage. Fortunately I'm not that kind of person. |
Fix Sov
107
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 22:45:00 -
[836] - Quote
Sheeana Harb wrote:I, as an incursioner, am concerned that 50 drone limit will (without any doubt) negatively affect my experience Is having to do something yourself in an incursion a bad thing, now? The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2238
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:55:00 -
[837] - Quote
Two step wrote:[quote=Grath Telkin]
If only PL had some representative on this "CSM"...
(you should have made Elise run again, no way sentries would have been nerfed if he had showed up for the summit in that white suit of his)
Yea, one guy arguing against the mob always works doesn't it?
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Dave Stark
4334
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:58:00 -
[838] - Quote
Fix Sov wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:I, as an incursioner, am concerned that 50 drone limit will (without any doubt) negatively affect my experience Is having to do something yourself in an incursion a bad thing, now? considering an incursion runner has plenty to do without accounting for drones, perhaps you should do one and realise it's not the same as a drone assist fleet where you can go afk once drones are assigned.
but that would mean actually doing something other than crying on the forums about something you've been told to cry about by some one else. |
Fix Sov
107
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Posted - 2014.02.07 23:08:00 -
[839] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Fix Sov wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:I, as an incursioner, am concerned that 50 drone limit will (without any doubt) negatively affect my experience Is having to do something yourself in an incursion a bad thing, now? considering an incursion runner has plenty to do without accounting for drones, perhaps you should do one and realise it's not the same as a drone assist fleet where you can go afk once drones are assigned. I don't remember incursions being so busy I felt overloaded with things to do back when I last did incursions.
Maybe we should get gun assist too, to level the playing field?
Dave Stark wrote:but that would mean actually doing something other than crying on the forums about something you've been told to cry about by some one else. I'm confused, nobody's told me to cry about anything. The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10164
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 23:13:00 -
[840] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:considering an incursion runner has plenty to do without accounting for drones, perhaps you should do one and realise it's not the same as a drone assist fleet where you can go afk once drones are assigned.
but that would mean actually doing something other than crying on the forums about something you've been told to cry about by some one else.
Please tell us about the difficult life of the hisec incursion runner Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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