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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2682
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:50:00 -
[481] - Quote
Quote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:
lol, in a thread where I've linked sources and you've linked...nothing.
Brilliant.
You've linked documented proof of anything remotely resembling proof level 4 missions are threatening EVEs economy? And with that have you linked anything that proves EVE's economy is in trouble? Show me and if you have and its verifiable then I will make amends.
I don't give a damn about your amends lol. Who do you think you are anyway?
The fact remains that i've made a case and supported it with fact as opposed to your ZERO. Balls in your court, show me some facts showing that high sec lvl 4s isk infusions are balanced.
Of course you can't because any review of the things I linked will demonstrate that what I'm saying is true: EVe has too many faucets, not enough sinks and missions are a big huge slice of that because there are so many mission runners. The game would benefit from more risk in pve (namely missions but also other content like anomalies and complexes) because as it is now pve doesn't kill big ships very often and big ships (stuff with material produced in game as they are) blowing up if good for everyone.
Just try to prove the above assertion wrong. I've got all year. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:53:00 -
[482] - Quote
Ah so like I thought you're a forum pissant. You have no proof and no I won't be disproving your assertion. I think you misunderstand how this works. If you make the assertion it's on you to prove it true.
Lol , disprove your assertion. What a joke.
I assert you're a convicted pedophile/murderer/rapist. Disprove it. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
651
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:55:00 -
[483] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Of course you can't because any review of the things I linked will demonstrate that what I'm saying is true: EVe has too many faucets, not enough sinks and missions are a big huge slice of that because there are so many mission runners. The game would benefit from more risk in pve (namely missions but also other content like anomalies and complexes) because as it is now pve doesn't kill big ships very often and big ships (stuff with material produced in game as they are) blowing up if good for everyone.
ME losing that navy BS was not good for ME. Thats will most likely be his argument.
In my case, it did make me learn something so it was still somewhat good. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4290
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:00:00 -
[484] - Quote
Looking at the drop in commodities prices and at the ranging PLEX prices, EvE economy ATM looks steady.
There's some fluctuation in one ice price but that's because some guys including me are playing with that market and that's it.
I think the "EvE economy is dying" threads are second only to the "EvE is dying" threads and are as useless. The Doctor himself has not communicated anything in the last months to make believe there are issues with EvE economy either. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:01:00 -
[485] - Quote
Better yet Jenn don't bother disproving what I said. I realize now you are absolutely the most idiotic person to ever post in the EVE forums. Who in their right mind would make a claim with zero tangible evidence and then demand others to disprove the assertion as a base for it being true. OMG. The absolute idiocy of that statement is so mind numbing I've got to leave the thread.
CCP if you are as big of group of jackasses as you'd have to be to balance your game based on these idiotic forum malcontents you deserve the outcome you get. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
652
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:06:00 -
[486] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Better yet Jenn don't bother disproving what I said. I realize now you are absolutely the most idiotic person to ever post in the EVE forums. Who in their right mind would make a claim with zero tangible evidence and then demand others to disprove the assertion as a base for it being true. OMG. The absolute idiocy of that statement is so mind numbing I've got to leave the thread.
And nothing of value will be lost.
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Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:08:00 -
[487] - Quote
LOL you notice everything I've stated in this thread hasn't been disputed right? It's because those that could seriously attempt to know my position is unassailable and those that would lack the skill to do so. |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
384
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:09:00 -
[488] - Quote
I thought you were out of here..? |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:11:00 -
[489] - Quote
Why do you want me gone? I know why. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
653
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:13:00 -
[490] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:LOL you notice everything I've stated in this thread hasn't been disputed right? It's because those that could seriously attempt to know my position is unassailable and those that would lack the skill to do so.
Missionning generate more ISK than is destroy. That is a fact.
Money being generated out of thin air is bad for any form of economy. That is also a fact.
Mission generating billions if not trillions of ISK in the economy out of thin air is bad for the economy. This is the result of those 2 fact being combined.
Your mission, if you accept it, is to prove that mission does not generate more ISK than it burns.
(There is technically 1 way where missionning would potentially destroy more ISK than it generate but many if not most people make it a priority while running mission to not fall in this case.) |
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Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
384
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:13:00 -
[491] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Why you want me gone? I know why. You do? How do you know that? Are you an internet telepath? If so, that's a pretty nifty trick.
Go on - read my mind! What color am I thinking of? |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
653
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:15:00 -
[492] - Quote
Plastic Psycho wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:Why you want me gone? I know why. You do? How do you know that? Are you an internet telepath? If so, that's a pretty nifty trick. Go on - read my mind! What color am I thinking of?
pink |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
384
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:17:00 -
[493] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Plastic Psycho wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:Why you want me gone? I know why. You do? How do you know that? Are you an internet telepath? If so, that's a pretty nifty trick. Go on - read my mind! What color am I thinking of? pink Not bad. Not right, but not bad. Bet the Caliph can't get any closer. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:18:00 -
[494] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:LOL you notice everything I've stated in this thread hasn't been disputed right? It's because those that could seriously attempt to know my position is unassailable and those that would lack the skill to do so. Missionning generate more ISK than is destroy. That is a fact. Money being generated out of thin air is bad for any form of economy. That is also a fact. Mission generating billions if not trillions of ISK in the economy out of thin air is bad for the economy. This is the result of those 2 fact being combined. Your mission, if you accept it, is to prove that mission does not generate more ISK than it burns. (There is technically 1 way where missionning would potentially destroy more ISK than it generate but many if not most people make it a priority while running mission to not fall in this case.)
#1 Nullsec ratting generates more income than it destroys. That's a fact.
#2 Money being generated out of thin air does not destroy the economy. If that's the case EVE's economy would not be in existence for soon as the first isk was generated it would have collapsed into the void. It didn't. And alas it wont with the next trillion.
#3 Same as # 2.
#4 talk of inflation and such is what the rich tell the poor when they want to stop the poor from procuring currency from anyone else but the rich. As an example. If im a billionaire and want you to work for peanuts would it be in my best interest to allow the government to print more money for you to earn doing some task that doesn't benefit me? Of course not. That ideology is from the 1% wanting the 99% to fight over the share they (the 1%) have. Its also strictly a fiat currency issue which EVE has and why this tripe of an argument and rationale hold up so well to anyone who doesn't really understand what fiat currency is and how it works.
#5 Many trillions of ISK are for all intents and purposes out of the economy. People save money. They do not spend down to their last, usually. Therefore only a fraction of the ISK collected is in use in the open market and the rest is locked away. Out of circulation. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
653
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:40:00 -
[495] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:LOL you notice everything I've stated in this thread hasn't been disputed right? It's because those that could seriously attempt to know my position is unassailable and those that would lack the skill to do so. Missionning generate more ISK than is destroy. That is a fact. Money being generated out of thin air is bad for any form of economy. That is also a fact. Mission generating billions if not trillions of ISK in the economy out of thin air is bad for the economy. This is the result of those 2 fact being combined. Your mission, if you accept it, is to prove that mission does not generate more ISK than it burns. (There is technically 1 way where missionning would potentially destroy more ISK than it generate but many if not most people make it a priority while running mission to not fall in this case.) #1 Nullsec ratting generates more income than it destroys. That's a fact. Its a stupid fact but if you consider those types of statements worthwhile and relevant, have at it. #2 Money being generated out of thin air does not destroy the economy. If that's the case EVE's economy would not be in existence for soon as the first isk was generated it would have collapsed into the void. It didn't. And alas it wont with the next trillion. #3 Same as # 2. #4 Talk of inflation and such is what the rich tell the poor when they want to stop the poor from procuring currency from anyone else but the rich. As an example. If im a billionaire and want you to work for peanuts would it be in my best interest to allow the government to print more money for you to earn doing some task that doesn't benefit me? Of course not. That ideology is from the 1% wanting the 99% to fight over the share they (the 1%) have. Its also strictly a fiat currency issue which EVE has and why this tripe of an argument and rationale hold up so well to anyone who doesn't really understand what fiat currency is and how it works. #5 Many trillions of ISK are for all intents and purposes out of the economy. People save money. They do not spend down to their last, usually. Therefore only a fraction of the ISK collected is in use in the open market and the rest is locked away. Out of circulation.
So your argument is basicly that since the economy didn't collapse yet, nothing negative ever happen to it. Thats nice. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:46:00 -
[496] - Quote
No That's not my argument. My argument is that level 4 missions have nothing to do with the price of plex. Which is most cases is what this boils down too. People want cheap gametime and assume because its not cheap that its because too much ISK is in the economy. Which may be partly true but it's very disingenuous to say all this extra ISK comes from Level 4 missions as opposed to nullsec.
The second part of my overall argument is that making hisec suck will not make low, nullsec or wormholes better or bursting at the seams with people. It'll just make hisec suck. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7804
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:07:00 -
[497] - Quote
At this point I will again point out that level 4 missions offer around the same level of income as null sec.
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Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:14:00 -
[498] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:At this point I will again point out that level 4 missions offer around the same level of income as null sec.
Running around in a shiffit cruisers in nullsec is no more riskier than a multi billion dollar blingship in hisec. I don't see the issue. Assuming of course this statement is even close to true. Risk versus reward is not an absolute. You are not taking more risk just by the virtue of being in nullsec. Its all situation dependent. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7805
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:22:00 -
[499] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:baltec1 wrote:At this point I will again point out that level 4 missions offer around the same level of income as null sec.
Running around in a shiffit cruisers in nullsec is no more riskier than a multi billion dollar blingship in hisec. I don't see the issue. Assuming of course this statement is even close to true. Risk versus reward is not an absolute. You are not taking more risk just by the virtue of being in nullsec. Its all situation dependent. What nullsec wants to do is convince CCP that they must be making 50-100 times the income of hisec just by virtue of the little red sec number.
So you dock up when a neut enters local in high sec? You get hotdrops? You can be kicked out of you station system?
Sorry but high sec is damn near perfect safety and null if far from that. The issue is that there is no reason to take on the much higher risks of low and null while level 4s offer around the same income with near perfect safsty. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:25:00 -
[500] - Quote
Baltec come back to reality. Nullsec has the same cure for stupid hisec does. Local chat. An alt account to scout the gate ensures you need not ever die non-consensually. Do me a favor . Go trick out a Deadspace ship and sit in jita. Tell me how safe you feel. Perimeter gate. Go HAM. 5 bil or better. |
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baltec1
Bat Country
7806
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:31:00 -
[501] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Baltec come back to reality. Nullsec has the same cure for stupid hisec does. Local chat. An alt account to scout the gate ensures you need not ever die non-consensually. Do me a favor . Go trick out a Deadspace ship and sit in jita. Tell me how safe you feel. Perimeter gate. Go HAM. 5 bil or better.
Local wont get rid of people hunting your t2 fitted raven in null. Please, go find me a t2 fitted raven that was ganked in highsec.
The simple fact is that high sec is a better option for making isk right now. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:42:00 -
[502] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:Baltec come back to reality. Nullsec has the same cure for stupid hisec does. Local chat. An alt account to scout the gate ensures you need not ever die non-consensually. Do me a favor . Go trick out a Deadspace ship and sit in jita. Tell me how safe you feel. Perimeter gate. Go HAM. 5 bil or better. Local wont get rid of people hunting your t2 fitted raven in null. Please, go find me a t2 fitted raven that was ganked in highsec. The simple fact is that high sec is a better option for making isk right now.
That can't be helped. Nullsec is as intended a more desolate outer reaches far from the hustle and bustle of civilized space. It has many opportunities that civilized space doesn't but comes with its own unique set of challenges to attain those rewards.
The problem is the game doesn't value those challenges in the way players do and will not support the notion of billion dollar nullsec missions versus million dollar hisec ones. Nor will it support million dollar null sec missions and thousand dollar hisec missions.
There is an increase in income opportunity in nullsec. A belt rat offers 1 million plus bounty, a hisec one, maybe 250k. (I haven't killed a hisec BS rat in a long time, can't recall) That right there is 4 times the income for the same exact activity/time spent just by virtue of hunting them there. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7808
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:50:00 -
[503] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:baltec1 wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:Baltec come back to reality. Nullsec has the same cure for stupid hisec does. Local chat. An alt account to scout the gate ensures you need not ever die non-consensually. Do me a favor . Go trick out a Deadspace ship and sit in jita. Tell me how safe you feel. Perimeter gate. Go HAM. 5 bil or better. Local wont get rid of people hunting your t2 fitted raven in null. Please, go find me a t2 fitted raven that was ganked in highsec. The simple fact is that high sec is a better option for making isk right now. That can't be helped. Nullsec is as intended a more desolate outer reaches far from the hustle and bustle of civilized space. It has many opportunities that civilized space doesn't but comes with its own unique set of challenges to attain those rewards. The problem is the game doesn't value those challenges in the way players do and will not support the notion of billion dollar nullsec missions versus million dollar hisec ones. Nor will it support million dollar null sec missions and thousand dollar hisec missions. There is an increase in income in nullsec. A belt rat offers 1 million plus bounty, a hisec one, maybe 250k. (I haven't killed a hisec BS rat in a long time, can't recall) That right there is 4 times the income for the same exact activity/time spent just by virtue of hunting them there.
Belt ratting is one of the worst ways go earn isk the rats tank more in null and there are fewer of them.
The problem is the null income has seen years of nerfs made to it but CCP did not do anything to high sec income. This has resulted is todays current imbalance. CCP cannot buff null income without harming the economy so that leaves erfing missions and incursions in high. They have already started this process with the ice changes.
Null sec is not some slumland its ment for building empires. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:53:00 -
[504] - Quote
Part of nullsecs reward is the ability to control your own empire. Not every reward is ISK based. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
471
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:00:00 -
[505] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:
Did you read what I said? The calculations use averages of ship losses. Is that not the best way to calculate risk?
Not when the ships are differnet sizes and costs and effectiveness ect. Look at the devblog I linked. At 1st blush it looked like high sec pve loses almost matched null sec pvp loses. Then you realize that the BULK of those high sec pve loses were tech1 frigs in starter areas lol. just dividing the numbers of ships lost per mission runner is useless unless every single mission runner is running the same ship and fit. Quote:How else would you calculate risk? Do you play something your self and say "Well this seems more or less risky than another activity..." If ship losses per hour average can't calculate risk, then I don't know how else you can to make a scientific judgement. The problem with personal observation (rational or not) is that it is anecdotal which is that it is not scientific and may not even give the true figures. What you see personally may not be the same case for everyone. I am willing to conceed, but you must prove it with data. Otherwise you are someone who just assumes that what they see is correct for all scenarios. It like pulling numbers out of your butt or go with your gut feeling. It is not the correct way to be making major changes. To understand what anecdotal evidence is read this and you'll see what is wrong with making statements without enough data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence Just quoting the rest of this to demonstrate how you always tend to get off track (usually with an assumption). I'm not making this stuff up, "big" ship losses rarely occur in pve and most PVE losses happen in high sec. Mission running is THE most common pve activity, which makes it a prime candidate for changes, although incursions rank up there as well because incursion runners are a small group shiving a HUGE amount of isk (per capita) into the game. (Which is why everytime DIN or ISN kill an incursion early, they are actually helping the game no matter how many cursing fits they send me into because I was off for labor day with no damn high sec incursions.....but I digress). I run missions everyday. EVE's pve is going backwards as it's now 100% perfectly safe if you fly a battleship (MJD means you can't die to npcs under any circumstance except letting your cap dip below MJD activation threshold). The new bastion module for marauders is going to make lvl4s safer still (even if the marauder pilot doesn't use it, he can mount a bastion mod to combat both full room aggro AND suicide ganking).
I know that you (from personal experience) have not experience loss missioning, but that does not mean others experience it.
Even if you are taking information from other people hearsay, that is still anecdotal evidence.
Its like going outside during a cold day and saying "Hrm... Global warming doesn't seem to exist because its cold out side."
If that were true, I could simply counter your argument saying... I know people who have lost ships during missions.
I am seeing in order to prove this one another we need the data of how many ships are lost during mission running and how many ships are lost during null sec income activities. Actually, it would be probaly better to not just count ship losses but the actual average of total ships amount lost because people in FW lose a good of frigates but yet still have a lower loss than someone who says loses a CNR.
If you read that article I posted, you would see why coming to decisions based on personal observation is suspect. Humans do it, but it comes to the wrong conclusion.
Unless, you can prove with data that on average null sec losses are greater for the isk earned, then you are just pulling stuff out of your butt and using gut instinct to come to a decision that you have no proof for other than what you have personally experienced.
There is a whole world beyond your personal experience. I mean I see ship losses on the map in mission hubs all the time... I can't say for certain whether or not those losses are mission runners. I don't have the data for that.
Neither do you so stop coming to this conclusions without something to back it up other than your personal experience.
And Tippia. I'm still waiting for that webpage citing CCP data with last months data on ships losses during missions compared to their income compared to people running null sec activities (not activily seeking pvp) and their losses and income. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7808
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:06:00 -
[506] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Part of nullsecs reward is the ability to control your own empire/space. Not every reward is ISK based.
And no there are not fewer belt rats than there are in hi sec. You have to work the spawns up just like anywhere else.
Furthermore, there are far fewer people in nullsec and less competition over the rats.
You get three battleships in a spawn vs how many in level 4s?
As for competitition, you can fit 10 in a null system. Any more and you will have ques forming for the next anom. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
471
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:07:00 -
[507] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They have already started this process with the ice changes.
I hate to say this, but you earn more isk per hour ice mining than regular mining now unlike before the patch. Mostly this has to do with current prices, so if you mine ice, you make much more now than you would before the patch change.
Before the patch prices were 100K per unit. Now its 200K and now you mine twice as fast.
You do the math.
If you happen to be in a system with 3 ice belts, you usually aren't hard up to find ice.
Actually, I know people who fly between 2 belt and 3 belt systems so that they always have ice. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7808
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:12:00 -
[508] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:baltec1 wrote:They have already started this process with the ice changes. I hate to say this, but you earn more isk per hour ice mining than regular mining now unlike before the patch. Mostly this has to do with current prices, so if you mine ice, you make much more now than you would before the patch change. Before the patch prices were 100K per unit. Now its 200K and now you mine twice as fast. You do the math. If you happen to be in a system with 3 ice belts, you usually aren't hard up to find ice. Actually, I know people who fly between 2 belt and 3 belt systems so that they always have ice.
It is impossible for high sec to meet the market demand for ice. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:28:00 -
[509] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:Part of nullsecs reward is the ability to control your own empire/space. Not every reward is ISK based.
And no there are not fewer belt rats than there are in hi sec. You have to work the spawns up just like anywhere else.
Furthermore, there are far fewer people in nullsec and less competition over the rats. You get three battleships in a spawn vs how many in level 4s? As for competitition, you can fit 10 in a null system. Any more and you will have ques forming for the next anom.
Apples and oranges. Ratting and missions are two different income opportunities. |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2401
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:28:00 -
[510] - Quote
I have removed some off topic posts. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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