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Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts.
200
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Posted - 2013.06.17 09:20:00 -
[91] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Bibosikus wrote:Amanda Chelian wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:it already has a 625% cloaked velocity modifier lol Assume 100 m/s base. Improved cloak penalty: -75% -> 25 m/s Black ops V bonus: 625% -> 156 m/s Wow, amazing bonus. The Blops cloaked speed multiplier is unique and actually has a niche role.. The Panther can reach well over 600m/s with a CONCORD cloak active. Take a look at ARGH28's Panther alpha kills on gatecamps on YouTube. I have an alpha-fit Panther for sh*ts & giggles that volleys 9k and does 500m/s cloaked, and one-shots anything less than a cruiser (as long as it's stationary, which a lot of nubs on gatecamps are). I think the real issue is that Blops are supposed to be flown as part of a gang or fleet and are defined as support ships. They were never meant to be flown solo, and it's solo pilots who are wishing for the covops bonus. Not going to happen guys, not under current bonuses. A Covops BS with zero % retargetting delay after decloaking is way, WAY OP. That said, CCP *did* briefly entertain the idea of splitting the Blops into two roles in a recent vid (sorry, can't remember which). Something's going to change, maybe this autumn, but what? why would a black ops have a 0% retargetting delay. Minimum delay for cloaking has always been 5 seconds even with highest skills trained. Then theres the gimped BS targetting time. Id rather a Blops decloaked and locked me with cov ops than T3 sinceT3 is 5 sec and much faster scan res.
Because the Black-ops have a role bonus simular to stealth bonus on decloaking,
and although it sounds pretty op, I can asure you it isn't. the scan resolution of B.O.'s make's sure that without any boosts, anything but a freighter will be able to warp aftert a BO decloaks.
SB's have a 300+ scan resolution the BO's have a third of that. then there is the fact that E-war doesn't come in sizes, so the recons will still be better at their game, because they will lock faster, are faster, their weapons will do better damage against smaller targets. SB's are exactly the same, are faster lock faster and have a better damage aplication, not to mention bombs.
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Rual Storge
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
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Posted - 2013.06.17 10:05:00 -
[92] - Quote
Bo's need to fit a regualr cloak which gimps the scanres badddly....
Ps: Try a smartypanther at drag bubbles.... its sooo much fun lol, dont even have to declaok stuff anymore |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
67
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Posted - 2013.06.17 12:53:00 -
[93] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Bibosikus wrote:Amanda Chelian wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:it already has a 625% cloaked velocity modifier lol Assume 100 m/s base. Improved cloak penalty: -75% -> 25 m/s Black ops V bonus: 625% -> 156 m/s Wow, amazing bonus. The Blops cloaked speed multiplier is unique and actually has a niche role.. The Panther can reach well over 600m/s with a CONCORD cloak active. Take a look at ARGH28's Panther alpha kills on gatecamps on YouTube. I have an alpha-fit Panther for sh*ts & giggles that volleys 9k and does 500m/s cloaked, and one-shots anything less than a cruiser (as long as it's stationary, which a lot of nubs on gatecamps are). I think the real issue is that Blops are supposed to be flown as part of a gang or fleet and are defined as support ships. They were never meant to be flown solo, and it's solo pilots who are wishing for the covops bonus. Not going to happen guys, not under current bonuses. A Covops BS with zero % retargetting delay after decloaking is way, WAY OP. That said, CCP *did* briefly entertain the idea of splitting the Blops into two roles in a recent vid (sorry, can't remember which). Something's going to change, maybe this autumn, but what? why would a black ops have a 0% retargetting delay. Minimum delay for cloaking has always been 5 seconds even with highest skills trained. Then theres the gimped BS targetting time. Id rather a Blops decloaked and locked me with cov ops than T3 sinceT3 is 5 sec and much faster scan res. Because the Black-ops have a role bonus simular to stealth bonus on decloaking, and although it sounds pretty op, I can asure you it isn't. the scan resolution of B.O.'s make's sure that without any boosts, anything but a freighter will be able to warp aftert a BO decloaks. SB's have a 300+ scan resolution the BO's have a third of that. then there is the fact that E-war doesn't come in sizes, so the recons will still be better at their game, because they will lock faster, are faster, their weapons will do better damage against smaller targets. SB's are exactly the same, are faster lock faster and have a better damage aplication, not to mention bombs. Blops with cov cloak would logically fit with the other cov ops that get a 10 sec recal delay without skills. SB get instant because they have a distinctive role - being fragile bombers.
And yeah as you said their scan res is aweful so they wouldnt be OP in that sense. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
842
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Posted - 2013.06.17 13:23:00 -
[94] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:No, PL was using a fleet of BLOPS to attack the CFC not that long ago, I was told by a friend who was involved in defending against them the addition of the MJD makes them very difficult to pin down, make them able to warp cloaked and they will be unstoppable.
Why would they be unstoppable? You now you can use long range scrams to stop them and kick their thin poor tank ass?
A single double rep Proteus with links and a couple friends can decimate them one by one, first because they don't have such a powerful dps or when they have their tank is really paper, second because Blop drops will only pick on the lonely weak or dumbs running away the moment they see a cyno.
Man up and undock with a couple friends in auto canes (+600dps+1neut) kick their ass, even if you kill a single of them they'll move away with a +1B loss already, get insta canes or SFI blap those bombers etc.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
76
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Posted - 2013.06.17 14:54:00 -
[95] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Dracvlad wrote:No, PL was using a fleet of BLOPS to attack the CFC not that long ago, I was told by a friend who was involved in defending against them the addition of the MJD makes them very difficult to pin down, make them able to warp cloaked and they will be unstoppable. Why would they be unstoppable? You now you can use long range scrams to stop them and kick their thin poor tank ass? A single double rep Proteus with links and a couple friends can decimate them one by one, first because they don't have such a powerful dps or when they have their tank is really paper, second because Blop drops will only pick on the lonely weak or dumbs running away the moment they see a cyno. Man up and undock with a couple friends in auto canes (+600dps+1neut) kick their ass, even if you kill a single of them they'll move away with a +1B loss already, get insta canes or SFI blap those bombers etc.
I don't think that a fleet of BLOPS that took out carriers repping a POS would have any problem with a Proteus and a couple of instra canes, and if someone did setup for them they would not engage, simple as, its nothing to do with man up! Actually it would be funny to see a fleet like that with covert ops cloaks running around making 0.0 even less inhabited, yeah CCP do it, makes sense, not... If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space, its as simple as that!-á-á-á-á-á-á-á There are people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local, well they should light a cyno and try jumping to it. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1123
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Posted - 2013.06.17 16:14:00 -
[96] - Quote
These little pre-nerfed-beyond-practical-use-from-the-start ships have been crying out for a covert cloak forever. suffering wiht low ehp poor slots and damage huge cost and skill investment etc
Think about it: black ops bridge some buddys into enemy space - sweet as! Haulers warp cloaked, T3s warp cloaked, covops warps cloaked and the bombers warp cloaked to the fight but RUT ROH the games up, big daddy and his bridge just warped near a grid and was spotted on scan before he even ruins the surprise while preying he doesnt die.
sounds genius. *facepalm*
give it the damned cloak already!
Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
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Euripedies
nul-li-fy Inc. Nulli Tertius
9
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Posted - 2013.06.21 23:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
my Panther is nothing more than an expensive jump bridge. It carries guns and drones cause it might get in a situation someday where it has to use them, mostly though, it doesn't, If I want dps for a fleet I bring the maelstrom, if Im doing anoms I use the tengu. the Panther mostly gathers dust in the hanger. I used it for doing anoms for a while to see how that was, but my tengu is just easier.
The Panther's scan resolution is gimped by the crappy cloak so it takes forever to lock on anything, and its speed is gimped by the crappy cloak, while cloaked, so even with my maxed skills in navigation and level 4 black ops im just creeping along. I may as well use a maelstrom with the prototype cloak.
The one good thing it does have is a big drone bay, however, the dps of my five T2 sentries is no better then having regular guns on it. So that isn't all that good either.
basically Im disappointed the Panther isn't what I thought it would be. |
Tara Read
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
425
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Posted - 2013.06.24 07:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Yes. Mainly because the Black Ops has some decent elements but glaring weaknesses as well. Terrible scan res, weak tank make them great for ganks but impractical in more useful applications. |
suza
Deus Fides Empire Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
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Posted - 2013.06.24 11:58:00 -
[99] - Quote
The idea of a BO BS is great though I am not sure that a very clear role was ever defined for it. I personally would keep the jump and covert cyno abilities as well as fit the covert ops cloak to it.
With the covert ops cloak I would remove the scan res penalty as well as dramatically improve its tanking ability.
To finish it off I would remove all turrets and launchers from it and give it logistic abilities. This would give it the role as a covert ops utility platform making covert ops a realistic role to be that forward, self contained hit and run black ops assassin squad.
The simple idea of having a bs class covert ops killer ship just seams wrong when looking at it in relations to other covert ops ships and their weaknesses / strengths as well as looking at what is missing within the covert ops team, which as yet has no utility ship. |
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
66
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Posted - 2013.06.24 13:44:00 -
[100] - Quote
suza wrote:The idea of a BO BS is great though I am not sure that a very clear role was ever defined for it. I personally would keep the jump and covert cyno abilities as well as fit the covert ops cloak to it.
With the covert ops cloak I would remove the scan res penalty as well as dramatically improve its tanking ability.
To finish it off I would remove all turrets and launchers from it and give it logistic abilities. This would give it the role as a covert ops utility platform making covert ops a realistic role to be that forward, self contained hit and run black ops assassin squad.
The simple idea of having a bs class covert ops killer ship just seams wrong when looking at it in relations to other covert ops ships and their weaknesses / strengths as well as looking at what is missing within the covert ops team, which as yet has no utility ship.
T3 do a pretty good job at being bridgeable logis, I really don't see the point of making the role of blackops overlap with T3/carriers.
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Major Killz
SniggWaffe
216
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Posted - 2013.06.24 15:07:00 -
[101] - Quote
Maybe they should. I suppose seeing gate camps or doctrines around them would eventually come out of doing something like that but they cost a billion to field v0v - Killz
Combat Video Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos - Pantaloon (June 13, 2013) - Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
66
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Posted - 2013.06.24 15:25:00 -
[102] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:BadAssMcKill wrote:Blops with a covert cloak would be dumb as hell. Why? Dump the speed bonus for the ability to fit Cover Ops Cloaking Device sticks far better with a Cover Ops ship BS sized. Why would this make them OP? -you can't probe them in warp, you can't probe them once out of warp and hit cloak anyways unless the pilot is really really dumb or drunk enough to jump instead of bridge. You always know when a Blops gang is around when they killed some stuff, not because of their eventual ability to warp to whatever safe spot cloak, this is a bad argument.
Maybe in 0.0, but in lowsec Black Ops range span multiple regions and no one got intel network casting such a wide net.
E.g. that range from a Black Ops from Osoggur at JDC 4 covers 84 lowsec systems over 7 regions. If you can't achieve surprise under those conditions, you are truly hopeless.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/range/Panther,4/Osoggur |
Friggz
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
150
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Posted - 2013.06.24 19:21:00 -
[103] - Quote
Caius Sivaris wrote: T3 do a pretty good job at being bridgeable logis, I really don't see the point of making the role of blackops overlap with T3/carriers.
They really don't. Three times the cost of a T2 logi and they perform significantly worse than a T1 logi. The lack a range bonus to their reps means using them is highly impractical.
That said, I think Black Ops needs to have logis to support them, not be logis themselves. If they were the logis that leaves recons and bombers for the rest of your fleet. You could keep your recons up with reps but the enemy fleet would just kill your bombers. An E-war fleet without dps to back it up isn't all that useful. Not to mention that it makes little sense to field a billion isk ship to rep 200 million isk recons. The is little point to adding a logi to the Black Ops line unless you also add a dps ship that can actually tank to make the logis useful.
Of course, adding a cloaky ship that can tank well enough to be repped and can still dps brings us right back to the same problem we have with Black Ops now: How do you balance that?
The Evolution of the Stealth Bomber, and the story of the first Black Ops Capital Kill in EvE.
https://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/969 |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
892
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Posted - 2013.06.25 14:01:00 -
[104] - Quote
Caius Sivaris wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:BadAssMcKill wrote:Blops with a covert cloak would be dumb as hell. Why? Dump the speed bonus for the ability to fit Cover Ops Cloaking Device sticks far better with a Cover Ops ship BS sized. Why would this make them OP? -you can't probe them in warp, you can't probe them once out of warp and hit cloak anyways unless the pilot is really really dumb or drunk enough to jump instead of bridge. You always know when a Blops gang is around when they killed some stuff, not because of their eventual ability to warp to whatever safe spot cloak, this is a bad argument. Maybe in 0.0, but in lowsec Black Ops range span multiple regions and no one got intel network casting such a wide net. E.g. that range from a Black Ops from Osoggur at JDC 4 covers 84 lowsec systems over 7 regions. If you can't achieve surprise under those conditions, you are truly hopeless. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/range/Panther,4/Osoggur
Then the hopeless issue of black ops will remain?
Balance them around low sec because low sec owns all and you can't have an intell chan covering 7LY (their max range jump with 5) ?
Balance them around WH's?
Balance them around Null sec?
Balance them around High sec?
Doesn't matter how many systems they cover/are used if it's low high wh or null sec, it matters it's a 1B mark Battleship with a BC tank and DPS (gank Brutix gets far more dps leave alone attack battlecrusiers), oyster mobility once cloak any T1 fitted noob frigate can easily decloak.
People say cover cloak would make it OP yet they are unable to explain why with reasonable arguments. Nothing.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Cheerfull Person
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.06.25 15:18:00 -
[105] - Quote
Doesnt really matter with local, does it?
Only place it matters are WHs, and blops suck in WHs since they are as heavy as a normal battleship + prop mod (and normal battleship already suck in WHs).
If you want cloaky warp, just take a T3, cheaper, better dmg, better tank, better lock times for you, worse for the enemy, only misses out a bit on range. |
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