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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1956
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Posted - 2013.05.15 04:43:00 -
[121] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Tippia wrote:IWhy should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time? You are not barred... it just costs you. Why should it cost more to fly cheaper and weaker ships than stronger, more expensive ones? Where's that risk vs. reward thing you were talking about again? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3519
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Posted - 2013.05.15 04:44:00 -
[122] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Tippia wrote:Why should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time? You are not barred... it just costs you. GǪfor no good reason. Why should it?
It costs extra because I am able to use my racial Battleship 5 skills to pilot my Condor, you dolt.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5070
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Posted - 2013.05.15 04:47:00 -
[123] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. No, they don't. The advantages they incur are a direct result of what ships they fly and what modules they fit to those ships. That determines which of their skills are applicable. SP as a whole means absolutely nothing about your ability to fly any given ship.
Corey Fumimasa wrote:The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players. Except that a 15m SP character with focused skills could actually have better and more applicable skills towards flying an AF for example than someone with 200m SP in a whole myriad of stuff. That's the point, the higher SP level doesn't incur any advantage in and of itself.
Corey Fumimasa wrote:To remove clone costs would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead. No, it won't.
Corey Fumimasa wrote:There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server. Do we even play the same game? This is not true at all, and clone costs being removed wouldn't affect this. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
466
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Posted - 2013.05.15 04:48:00 -
[124] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote: High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.
Except we know only a certain amount of sp is going to be relavent to a given ship. The clone cost advantage is redundant and does not help new players. It only negatively affects vets.
Corey Fumimasa wrote: To remove them would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.
I'm not following this logic. In what way does reducing clone costs give any player a combat advantage? It is absolutely neutral in this regard.
Corey Fumimasa wrote: There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.
In the long run we'll all have infinitely high skillpoints and will pay infinitely higher clone costs. At that point the cost disincentive is universally negative since clone prices will be much higher on everyone relative to their income. You can safely hand-wave about vets being far too wealthy to bother over clone costs when we're a minority, but when the average player is at 200m sp? I suppose you could argue inflation would negate that, but I don't think predicating game design on that premise is a good idea.
Corey Fumimasa wrote: I for one want to have more competition, not less, even if my char wont be as ubber as I want him to be right this instant.
Then you should be all for eliminating the artificial disincentive. The competition (combat) we're talking about is discouraged by this tax on veterans. It means only the vets with isk to burn will hop into a ship that would easily render them a pod-kill. In a situation where this disincentive were gone. More vets would be able to fly cheap and disposable ships (which give better odds to their newer opponents).
It's a case not of eliminating risk, but of moving risk into actual combat where it belongs.
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
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Posted - 2013.05.15 04:49:00 -
[125] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:[High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. What advantages are those?
Options and wealth.
Tippia wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote: There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players
Not really, no. The level cap already ensures this. An alpha clone character could win a 1 v 1 vs an Omicron clone, but the Omicron wont worry much about the loss. We should all be scared of one another. Once the outcome is certain then the mystery is gone. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1956
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Posted - 2013.05.15 04:55:00 -
[126] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Tippia wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:[High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. What advantages are those? Options and wealth. Options, yes. Wealth, no. Prove to me that every veteran player is wealthy.
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Tippia wrote:Not really, no. The level cap already ensures this.
An alpha clone character could win a 1 v 1 vs an Omicron clone, but the Omicron wont worry much about the loss. We should all be scared of one another. Once the outcome is certain then the mystery is gone. The outcome of a fight is never certain. I've beaten six-year-old players with month old alts before. I've also won three-on-one fights with players who had the same amounts of SP I did.
Do you actually believe the words coming out of your own mouth? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
133
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:14:00 -
[127] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪfor no good reason. Why should it?
Who said it should? Right now it is a game mechanic... higher skill points means higher clone cost. If you choose to follow that path then... your choice.
Are you asking is it 'fair' or is it a game mechanic that is overall detrimental to game play?
That later might require an adjustment to the game.
The former requires... EvE is hard and dark and isn't 'fair'. HTFU.
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1956
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:18:00 -
[128] - Quote
And as I asked before, why should high clone costs negatively affect the pvpers, but not the miners and mission runners who never lose their pods? If bigger clones need to be more expensive, shouldn't all players be exposed to this sort of "risk?" I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Tom Gerard
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1039
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:19:00 -
[129] - Quote
CCP should add passive income based on the amount of SP.
Ya know... or just make a flat pod cost. Possibly zero. One of the oldest mission players in EVE designed a chart that explains stat priority in regards to mission running, compared Alpha, DPS, Ship Speed and Sig Radius and scores them. http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m24dbrfuWn1r86ax8o1_1280.jpg |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
133
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:19:00 -
[130] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote: Why should it cost more to fly cheaper and weaker ships than stronger, more expensive ones? Where's that risk vs. reward thing you were talking about again?
Perhaps you misunderstood. You using a lower skilled toon in a cheaper clone is a different Risk vs Reward than using a more experience toon in a more expediencies clone (assume the same ship and load out).
Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
133
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:21:00 -
[131] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:And as I asked before, why should high clone costs negatively affect the pvpers, but not the miners and mission runners who never lose their pods? If bigger clones need to be more expensive, shouldn't all players be exposed to this sort of "risk?" Are you saying it is not fair? |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
133
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:21:00 -
[132] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:CCP should add passive income based on the amount of SP.
Ya know... or just make a flat pod cost. Possibly zero. How about a tax (ISK sink) based on SP?
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3520
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:23:00 -
[133] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote: Why should it cost more to fly cheaper and weaker ships than stronger, more expensive ones? Where's that risk vs. reward thing you were talking about again?
Perhaps you misunderstood. You using a lower skilled toon in a cheaper clone is a different Risk vs Reward than using a more experience toon in a more expediencies clone (assume the same ship and load out). Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).
How do you justify the difference between my 15M SP FW alt and my 100M+ SP main characters having literally no effective difference? How do you justify 15M SP FW alts straight up outperforming industrialists with 100M+ SP?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1062
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:24:00 -
[134] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward). By that reasoning, I should only have to pay for a 35mil SP clone, at most, when flying a combat cruiser since that's the maximum SP I can use while flying one. CCP has no sense of humour. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1956
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:24:00 -
[135] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).
But my 20-million SP character will have the same skills as my 150-million SP character with regard to flying a frigate or cruiser hull, though the costs of dying will still be different. Your whole argument breaks apart at this point.
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:And as I asked before, why should high clone costs negatively affect the pvpers, but not the miners and mission runners who never lose their pods? If bigger clones need to be more expensive, shouldn't all players be exposed to this sort of "risk?" Are you saying it is not fair? I am saying it isn't balanced. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
422
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:55:00 -
[136] - Quote
If you've got over 100 million skillpoints and can't afford the increased clone costs, then you're doing something wrong. Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1958
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Posted - 2013.05.15 05:57:00 -
[137] - Quote
Way to read the thread, Einstein. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5072
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Posted - 2013.05.15 06:14:00 -
[138] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:If you've got over 100 million skillpoints and can't afford the increased clone costs, then you're doing something wrong. Wrong and furthermore wholly irrelevant. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
889
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Posted - 2013.05.15 06:22:00 -
[139] - Quote
Ratting carriers. Oh god. |
Tom Gerard
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1039
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Posted - 2013.05.15 06:26:00 -
[140] - Quote
CLONES ARE TOO DAMNED EXPENSIVE.
This is why I don't PVP outside of RVB.
This is why I go inactive during RVB third party wars.
One of the oldest mission players in EVE designed a chart that explains stat priority in regards to mission running, compared Alpha, DPS, Ship Speed and Sig Radius and scores them. http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m24dbrfuWn1r86ax8o1_1280.jpg |
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Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
159
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Posted - 2013.05.15 06:52:00 -
[141] - Quote
mechtech wrote:100m isn't that harsh of a death penalty. That's 1-2 hours for a vet who has no good source of income, and damn near inconsequential for many 100m sp players. Honestly, I've played many "carebear" fantasy MMOs with harsher death penalties...
If you live in Nullsec then with ratting alone you'll make 20mil isk ticks (20mil every 20 min) and that's without doing anything special. With 2 toons ratting you can easily make double that or more and that's not including faction spawns or escalations.
I want to know where this guy PVP's because it sounds like he insta-dies every time he undocks (must be from Test :)). Anyway I'd like to give him a visit.
@ OP. You can certainly improve your chances. Fly logistics (you'll be behind the fleet and probably not in bubbles as often) or fly a command ship which are usually not primaried unless you're the FC and they know you because they're a hard target to kill unless you strip off some of their logistics first. That will improve your survival rate.
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1960
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Posted - 2013.05.15 07:12:00 -
[142] - Quote
And once again someone advocates saving money on clones by locking yourself out of a whole subsection of available ships.
I am seriously starting to think these people are so stupid that they forget how to breathe while typing their responses, and only when they finally notice their blue reflections in the forums' dark background do they finally, desperately gulp for air. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
160
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Posted - 2013.05.15 08:30:00 -
[143] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:And once again someone advocates saving money on clones by locking yourself out of a whole subset of available ships.
I am seriously starting to think these people are so stupid that they forget how to breathe while typing their responses, and only when they finally notice their blue reflections in the forums' dark background on their monitors do they finally, desperately gulp for air.
Ah.... the smell of forum epeen in the morning.
Looking past the passive agressive answer, the advice is solid. If the op is really worried about losing his clone then he has options. I'm pointing out some of them but he has others, such as:
- to change his game. Move to low-sec or try out FW, where losing a pod is a rarity, - likewise (as already pointed out) make a choice of ship that isn't such an easy target - rat/mine (or whatever) a little more so he doesn't have to cry about being space-poor - Learn some of the passive isk making things in the game like PI that would easily pay for all the clones he loses in exchange for an hour of tending to planets in a week - create a Jita alt and do some semi-afk trading....
... .or any number of other ideas. The game is vast, his options are many but they boil down into two main ideas:
- reduce your risk of losing the clone if it's such a big deal - make more money so the costs are in line with your income
Making ISK in this game is dead easy but if his aversion to doing so is THAT big and he wants to pvp ALL the time then it's still possible to be space rich. Many alliances pay their FC's isk (or items like PLEX) for the work they do. He's played long enough so maybe it's time for him to step up his game and sit in the big chair....
I'm just saying. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1964
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Posted - 2013.05.15 08:54:00 -
[144] - Quote
Like all other posters arguing against this, you've provided many hows, but no whys. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
677
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Posted - 2013.05.15 09:06:00 -
[145] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Like all other posters arguing against this, you've provided many hows, but no whys. there is one "why" you are asking for: CONSEQUENCES |
baltec1
Bat Country
6427
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Posted - 2013.05.15 09:16:00 -
[146] - Quote
30% reduction sounds nice. |
Blitzalpha Khurelem
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.05.15 09:19:00 -
[147] - Quote
there are some useless FC's out there who should wear the cost of some of my 150m SP clones
you know who you are |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1967
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Posted - 2013.05.15 09:19:00 -
[148] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Like all other posters arguing against this, you've provided many hows, but no whys. there is one "why" you are asking for: CONSEQUENCES What kind, and what do they serve to accomplish?
Just throwing the word "consequences" at me is pretty much like blowing off a metaphysical question with a response of "it's in the bible." I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
18
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Posted - 2013.05.15 09:28:00 -
[149] - Quote
confirming that i dont pvp because i need to pay 60m everytime i lose a clone
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March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
677
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Posted - 2013.05.15 09:31:00 -
[150] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:March rabbit wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Like all other posters arguing against this, you've provided many hows, but no whys. there is one "why" you are asking for: CONSEQUENCES What kind, and what do they serve to accomplish? Just throwing the word "consequences" at me is pretty much like blowing off a metaphysical question with a response of "it's in the bible." 1) (similar to new ship cost) it makes you TRY to safe your ass when in trouble instead of "f... it, i have another clone". In other games respawning makes you wait some time/until round finished. In Eve Online - it's ISK factor. 2) SP collecting. This is just another factor you HAVE to have in mind when your game is "COLLECT AS MANY SP AS I CAN". Many people say they WILL do PvP when "they have enough SP". Well, they can wait but then they WILL meet medical clone cost. At this point we have new excuse "the only thing why i don't do PvP"
i really think it's obvious |
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