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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:11:00 -
[91] - Quote
Zilero wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Ruining employment history = ruining fun.
It should not be allowed in highsec.
What should not be allowed? An effective counter to the griefing war dec? Why do you want all carebears to quit and bankrupt CCP as a result? Let me turn that around. Why do YOU want all PVP'ers to quit and bankrupt CCP as a result? Wardecing defenseless corps in highsec isn't PVP.
Ganking isn't PVP
Bumping isn't PVP.
Blobbing isn't PVP either, it's just "F1"ing.
Only honorable 1v1 duels and shooting structures are PVP. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
luZk
x13 Whores in space
156
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:12:00 -
[92] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Ruining employment history = ruining fun.
It should not be allowed in highsec.
What should not be allowed? An effective counter to the griefing war dec? Why do you want all carebears to quit and bankrupt CCP as a result?
Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish? "Statistics show that only ~50% of the players run dx11-ready systems" --áCCP Mankiller |
Zilero
The Littlest Hobos Whores in space
53
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:14:00 -
[93] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Zilero wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Ruining employment history = ruining fun.
It should not be allowed in highsec.
What should not be allowed? An effective counter to the griefing war dec? Why do you want all carebears to quit and bankrupt CCP as a result? Let me turn that around. Why do YOU want all PVP'ers to quit and bankrupt CCP as a result? Wardecing defenseless corps in highsec isn't PVP. Ganking isn't PVP Bumping isn't PVP. Blobbing isn't PVP either, it's just "F1"ing. Only honorable 1v1 duels and shooting structures are PVP.
Every single one of those are examples of PVP (PVP = Player vs. Player, says nothing about fairness).
Unless you of course think PVP should be fair all the time... in which case I suggest a single player game.
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Rico Minali
The Straw Men Dark Therapy
1254
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:15:00 -
[94] - Quote
I vote "Get rid of wardecs AND Concord."
Let the peeveepee begin :) Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:15:00 -
[95] - Quote
luZk wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Ruining employment history = ruining fun.
It should not be allowed in highsec.
What should not be allowed? An effective counter to the griefing war dec? Why do you want all carebears to quit and bankrupt CCP as a result? Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish? CONCORD says so. You wanna pick a fight with our security gods? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:17:00 -
[96] - Quote
Zilero wrote: Let me turn that around.
Why do YOU want all PVP'ers to quit and bankrupt CCP as a result?
Find a post where I suggest getting rid of null, low, and other mechanism that players interested in PvP use to PvP with each other, then I'll answer that question.
What I'm proposing is that we maintain the current limits on PvP that largely allow those not interested in PvP, to continue to play the game.
Or, are you implying that the only PvP in EVE is PvPers blowing up carebears. Is there NO fighting between two players that are both looking for a fight?
If you can't ruin some carebear's day, then the game just isn't worth playing? Wow. Someone needs to get to a psycologist's office and pronto before they turn into another school shooting. |
Zilero
The Littlest Hobos Whores in space
54
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:17:00 -
[97] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:luZk wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Ruining employment history = ruining fun.
It should not be allowed in highsec.
What should not be allowed? An effective counter to the griefing war dec? Why do you want all carebears to quit and bankrupt CCP as a result? Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish? CONCORD says so. You wanna pick a fight with our security gods?
Concord also allows us to shoot you in hisec, with a consequence as well as make hisec wardecs. So yeah... |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:19:00 -
[98] - Quote
luZk wrote: Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish?
Because it is necessary to ensure I can earn the ISK I need to fund my accounts with PLEX. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:21:00 -
[99] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:luZk wrote:Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish? Because it is necessary to ensure I can earn the ISK I need to fund my accounts with PLEX. I hear you bro, we must keep this really low risk playstyle alive despite what the proponents for "pvp" and "balance" want to say about it. I am a nullsec zealot. |
luZk
x13 Whores in space
157
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:27:00 -
[100] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:luZk wrote: Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish?
Because it is necessary to ensure I can earn the ISK I need to fund my accounts with PLEX.
If nobody could kill you in high sec you would'nt be able to do that, the ore you mine would be worth nothing as everyone would mine with no consequence all day and low end mineral prices would crash.
"Statistics show that only ~50% of the players run dx11-ready systems" --áCCP Mankiller |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:37:00 -
[101] - Quote
luZk wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:luZk wrote: Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish?
Because it is necessary to ensure I can earn the ISK I need to fund my accounts with PLEX. If nobody could kill you in high sec you would'nt be able to do that, the ore you mine would be worth nothing as everyone would mine with no consequence all day and low end mineral prices would crash. Well then, clearly miners would have to be buffed even more, then. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1668
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:43:00 -
[102] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote:I think removing wardecks is a good thing, but only if you found solutions for removing structures and such in highsec. 1) Keep war decs, but only allow them for corps that have a structure. 2) War dec the structure. If you do not actually aggrerss the structure, the war is canceled. 3) Economic warfare. The structure rental slot goes to the highest bidder. I see what you're upto, you actually want people to be losing structures even in highsec. I expect your plan has a DecShield-like exploit allowing the defending corp enough time to take everything out of their POS or shed the wardec before the structure is ~actually~ threatened. Otherwise no. Actually what I was "up to" was trying to respond to: "I think removing wardecks is a good thing, but only if you found solutions for removing structures and such in highsec."
What do not understand is why "Pay 50 million, and have absolutely no fighting take place" is such a valuable and fulfilling game experience that so many people want to keep it. Why, as an aggressor, do you want to spend 50 million to do nothing for a week? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
luZk
x13 Whores in space
158
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:44:00 -
[103] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:luZk wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:luZk wrote: Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish?
Because it is necessary to ensure I can earn the ISK I need to fund my accounts with PLEX. If nobody could kill you in high sec you would'nt be able to do that, the ore you mine would be worth nothing as everyone would mine with no consequence all day and low end mineral prices would crash. Well then, clearly miners would have to be buffed even more, then.
Yes a high end mineral hauler spawn everytime a rock pops in a belt would only be fair and not hurt the ballance at all. "Statistics show that only ~50% of the players run dx11-ready systems" --áCCP Mankiller |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:49:00 -
[104] - Quote
luZk wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Well then, clearly miners would have to be buffed even more, then. Yes a high end mineral hauler spawn everytime a rock pops in a belt would only be fair and not hurt the ballance at all. Hmm, well it sounds a little competitive, since there would be a rush to nab the hauler.
What about throwing free minerals in your hold? I am a nullsec zealot. |
Mathrin
Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems
68
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:50:00 -
[105] - Quote
Mire Stoude wrote:Null-Sec has already found a way to get rid of non-consensual wars, CCP is just following suit.
Solar would like to have a word with you |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:51:00 -
[106] - Quote
Mathrin wrote:Mire Stoude wrote:Null-Sec has already found a way to get rid of non-consensual wars, CCP is just following suit. Solar would like to have a word with you Once SOLAR is gone, we will re-establish the no-non-consensual wars regime.
Please wait while we blob. Well, actually someone else, since the CFC isn't fighting SOLAR. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
336
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:15:00 -
[107] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: A pure indy corp is a pure indy corp because its members get no pleasure from PvP space combat. For them its not a fun activity, its just a big pile of stress. In general we all play games to have fun. Why participate in a game activity that get you nothing but stress? My conclusion: There is in fact nothing that would get a pure indy corp to participate in a war.
I agree. But just like pvp corps need to contract logi services like Black Frog or use alts, its not unreasonable that an indy corp might be expected to hire mercs, if given a good incentive to do so. Even if they don't participate directly in a war, there should be a reason for them to think "well we could just disband and reform our corp, but if we stay and fight it out with the help if these mercs and WIN, then X, Y, Z good things will happen".
That's if you want to fix wardecs, anyway. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
336
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:22:00 -
[108] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:luZk wrote: Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish?
Because it is necessary to ensure I can earn the ISK I need to fund my accounts with PLEX.
That's a rather pathetic justification for anything, really. 500m per account per month is not enshrined as an Eve minimum wage law.
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Psyche Atheos
Cypronic Development Army of Dark Shadows
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:27:00 -
[109] - Quote
War deccing corp pays 50 mil to declare war. Corp at the other end of the wardec can either wait out the war, or optionally pay 100mil to the attacking corp, refunding the wardec corp and profiting them, but then the decced corp is immune to further incoming wardecs for a period of, say, 60 days. Every 60 days, yes, your corp could be "trolled" into paying 100mil to some random corp, but the immunity to war would prevent endless revolving trolling going on. Of course while the corp is in "war cooldown" if they declare war themselves they become open for war, and also can opt to end their "Cooldown" anytime.
Of course the idea would need to be fleshed out...but it would keep wardecs intact juuust enough to be a part of the game, but stop them from allowing players who want to PVP without actually dipping their tiny wangs into low security space to fight to pick endlessly on every corp they see.
MAKES MORE SENSE THAN THE BOUNTY SYSTEM |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:28:00 -
[110] - Quote
luZk wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:luZk wrote: Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish?
Because it is necessary to ensure I can earn the ISK I need to fund my accounts with PLEX. If nobody could kill you in high sec you would'nt be able to do that, the ore you mine would be worth nothing as everyone would mine with no consequence all day and low end mineral prices would crash.
I didn't say no one could kill me in high sec. Just that it happens so rarely that I can continue to make the ISK I need to fund my accounts.
With the removal of drone drop as a means of producing minerals at a rate faster than mining, we've seen mineral prices adjust to the mine/mission equilibrium. That is, they are at the point where I can make about the same amount of ISK doing either of these activities. Mineral prices drop, I go mission. Mineral prices rise, I go mine. And, all the other carebears like me are also watching mineral prices and comparing the ISK/hr to decide which to do at any given time.
Without other means of producing minerals faster than mining, mineral prices won't crash, because if they start to drop, we stop mining and go missioning.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1194
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:34:00 -
[111] - Quote
Psyche Atheos wrote:War deccing corp pays 50 mil to declare war. Corp at the other end of the wardec can either wait out the war, or optionally pay 100mil to the attacking corp, refunding the wardec corp and profiting them, but then the decced corp is immune to further incoming wardecs for a period of, say, 60 days. Every 60 days, yes, your corp could be "trolled" into paying 100mil to some random corp, but the immunity to war would prevent endless revolving trolling going on. Of course while the corp is in "war cooldown" if they declare war themselves they become open for war, and also can opt to end their "Cooldown" anytime.
Of course the idea would need to be fleshed out...but it would keep wardecs intact juuust enough to be a part of the game, but stop them from allowing players who want to PVP without actually dipping their tiny wangs into low security space to fight to pick endlessly on every corp they see.
MAKES MORE SENSE THAN THE BOUNTY SYSTEM
Biggest problem. You've just recreated dec shield. For a cost of 50 million a month, per corp, a small group of corporations can make themselves undeccable for 2 months.
I can understand your reasoning, but it's too damn easy to exploit FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:34:00 -
[112] - Quote
Takseen wrote: I agree. But just like pvp corps need to contract logi services like Black Frog or use alts, its not unreasonable that an indy corp might be expected to hire mercs, if given a good incentive to do so. Even if they don't participate directly in a war, there should be a reason for them to think "well we could just disband and reform our corp, but if we stay and fight it out with the help if these mercs and WIN, then X, Y, Z good things will happen".
That's if you want to fix wardecs, anyway.
Hiring a merc corp doesn't allow me to them undock in my mining ship. Too easy to slip past teh mercs and destroy the barges/exhumers.
WORSE! Hiring Mercs actually gives the PVPers what they want, fights. This means they will keep war dec'ing. The only way to limit the number of war decs you get is to ensure the PVP corps that dec you DO NOT get fights.
If I get war decced, I'm out a cool billion ISK a week whether I lose a ship or not. My goal is to not get war dec'ed in the first place. TO this end, I have a rule to NEVER give a war dec'er a non-suicide gank kill... me or a mercenary I hired.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:36:00 -
[113] - Quote
Psyche Atheos wrote:War deccing corp pays 50 mil to declare war. Corp at the other end of the wardec can either wait out the war, or optionally pay 100mil to the attacking corp, refunding the wardec corp and profiting them, but then the decced corp is immune to further incoming wardecs for a period of, say, 60 days.
Heck YEAH! Then I create an alt corp, war dec my main corp, pay myself to end the war, then can't get dec'ed again? SWEET.
SO much cheaper than losing 1 billion a week opportunity cost every time I get a war dec.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:37:00 -
[114] - Quote
Takseen wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:luZk wrote: Why should you be allowed to market pvp others but they cant regular pvp you? Is'nt that a bit selfish?
Because it is necessary to ensure I can earn the ISK I need to fund my accounts with PLEX. That's a rather pathetic justification for anything, really. 500m per account per month is not enshrined as an Eve minimum wage law.
What is the alternative? Mass unsubs and lost revenue for CCP?
Good luck getting CCP to agree to that. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
337
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:45:00 -
[115] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: Hiring a merc corp doesn't allow me to them undock in my mining ship. Too easy to slip past teh mercs and destroy the barges/exhumers. WORSE! Hiring Mercs actually gives the PVPers what they want, fights. This means they will keep war dec'ing. The only way to limit the number of war decs you get is to ensure the PVP corps that dec you DO NOT get fights. If I get war decced, I'm out a cool billion ISK a week whether I lose a ship or not. My goal is to not get war dec'ed in the first place. TO this end, I have a rule to NEVER give a war dec'er a non-suicide gank kill... me or a mercenary I hired.
Yes, I get it, you play passive because there's no incentive to do anything else right now. That's why wardecs don't work very well. Too little risk for the attacker, too little reward for the active defender. That's the bit that needs to change.
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Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
337
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:55:00 -
[116] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:
What is the alternative? Mass unsubs and lost revenue for CCP? Good luck getting CCP to agree to that.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say CCP nerfs highsec. You can still be pvp immune bar suicide ganks, but it reduces your income more when you do it. So you keep playing but your income goes down. So does the income of similar minded highseccers who fund their accounts with Plex. This should just result in a slight drop in plex prices. |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
578
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 19:10:00 -
[117] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: Hiring a merc corp doesn't allow me to them undock in my mining ship. Too easy to slip past teh mercs and destroy the barges/exhumers.
WORSE! Hiring Mercs actually gives the PVPers what they want, fights. This means they will keep war dec'ing. The only way to limit the number of war decs you get is to ensure the PVP corps that dec you DO NOT get fights.
If I get war decced, I'm out a cool billion ISK a week whether I lose a ship or not. My goal is to not get war dec'ed in the first place. TO this end, I have a rule to NEVER give a war dec'er a non-suicide gank kill... me or a mercenary I hired.
If it's your mercs who are doing the dying, why would they bother to come after you again when they can just wardec them? Putting pressure on a highsec merc corp is a lot more fun and generates more content than deccing a mining group that just docks up. They have to fight back, because no one is going to hire them if their killboard has tons of losses.
Better yet, why would you hire the same mercs again if they've proven to be completely worthless? When you have so much isk on the line in terms of opportunity cost, you have enough reason to hire any highsec mercenary group, or even multiple of them to prove you mean business. You could even pay off your aggressor if they are ~honourable~ enough.
When you decide to drop corp or hide in an NPC corp, you kill the PVP food chain (and cause PVPers to unsub, leaving the only people left scavengers looking solely for easy kills) because then those mercenaries who want to defend you have no income source, which hurts the game because then pirate corps can't receive protection money/loot from those corps, and so on. You refuse to participate in your link in the food chain because you feel entitled to a PLEX each month. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 19:11:00 -
[118] - Quote
Takseen wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:
What is the alternative? Mass unsubs and lost revenue for CCP? Good luck getting CCP to agree to that.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say CCP nerfs highsec. You can still be pvp immune bar suicide ganks, but it reduces your income more when you do it. So you keep playing but your income goes down. So does the income of similar minded highseccers who fund their accounts with Plex. This should just result in a slight drop in plex prices.
You assume the number of PLEX being purchased is purely inelastic. That is, that CCP will sell the exact same number of PLEX regardless of its in game ISK price.
Let's say a null sec PVPer can earn 50 million ISK an hour ratting. If PLEX is selling for 500 million ISK, then his choice is spend real or rat for 10 hours. That will result in X number of PLEX being bought with real and sold for ISK. That means X number of accounts are funded by PLEX. CCP is making the money of those PLEX funded accounts, just collecting the real from the people buying PLEX.
Drop that to 400 million ISK, because of a high sec nerf. Now, instead of 10 hours ratting, the null PVPer only has to grind 8. More people will take the "grind or 8 hours" then are currently taking the "grind for 10 hours" option. Fewer PLEX sold for real means fewer accounts funded via PLEX and less real revenue for CCP.
On the flip side. CCP nerfed drone drop, casuing mineral prices to rise, increasing the profits of high sec miners. Did this automatically result in more high sec accounts funded by PLEX? Of course not. The ISK price of PLEX would increase just as fast as profits to divide a static number of PLEX.....
Oh, but the number of PLEX being bought was NOT static. As prices increased, players needed more ISK to buy ships. This meant they had to rat longer... or, with increasing PLEX price, more and more null PVPers would just choose to spend real instead of ratting the longer hours needed to earn the ISK.
It is the number of PLEX being bought for real that determines the number of accounts that will be funded via PLEX. PLEX prices just adjust to encourage/discourage high sec carebears from creating more alts funded on those PLEX.
Nerf high sec, drive down profits, drive down PLEX prices, reduce the breakeven on the rat/real money option for null PVPers,, reduce number of PLEX purchased for real, crush CCP's revenue. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 19:18:00 -
[119] - Quote
EI Digin wrote: If it's your mercs who are doing the dying, why would they bother to come after you again when they can just wardec them?
Mercs fight when there is profit in it. If they get war dec'ed directly, where is the profit? Why would they fight?
EI Digin wrote: When you decide to drop corp or hide in an NPC corp, you kill the PVP food chain (and cause PVPers to unsub, leaving the only people left scavengers looking solely for easy kills) because then those mercenaries who want to defend you have no income source, which hurts the game because then pirate corps can't receive protection money/loot from those corps, and so on. You refuse to participate in your link in the food chain because you feel entitled to a PLEX each month.
So, you are implying that the ONLY PVP is grifers picking on carebears? There are NO fights that occur because both sides want to fight?
It is less about feeling "entitled" to PLEX every month. It is more about the simply mathematical reality. No ISK, no PLEX. No PLEX, no account. No account, no revenue for CCP.
CCP wants revenue. Therefor, CCP ensures I have a way to get ISK to buy PLEX to fund my accounts so they can get paid.
I'm not entitled to it. CCP provides the mechanisms that permit it without me even asking, because if they did not, my accounts never would have existed in the first place.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1669
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 19:21:00 -
[120] - Quote
Psyche Atheos wrote:War deccing corp pays 50 mil to declare war. Corp at the other end of the wardec can either wait out the war, or optionally pay 100mil to the attacking corp, refunding the wardec corp and profiting them, but then the decced corp is immune to further incoming wardecs for a period of, say, 60 days. ........... ALL wardecs? Then they would make a fake one man corp, dec themselves, pay themselves off and be war free. Repeat every 60 days. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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