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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2011.10.13 11:05:00 -
[391] - Quote
If my plan interferes with you then so be it. Because just about any other plan would SERIOUSLY impact active cloaking.
How would you like to be watching a POS and then decloak because you forgot to refuel the cloak fuel? POS guns say hai and you lose your shiny ship. How would you like to suddenly decloak from a "Solar effect" or other system? I will support them over nothing being done but I feel my plan has the best chance to have the least impact on active cloaking. |
Signal11th
94
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Posted - 2011.10.13 11:09:00 -
[392] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:If my plan interferes with you then so be it. Because just about any other plan would SERIOUSLY impact active cloaking.
How would you like to be watching a POS and then decloak because you forgot to refuel the cloak fuel? POS guns say hai and you lose your shiny ship. How would you like to suddenly decloak from a "Solar effect" or other system? I will support them over nothing being done but I feel my plan has the best chance to have the least impact on active cloaking.
Please for the love of GOD no more I can't take it anymore, put a proposal in CSM forums and I'll even sign it for you if it will stop your posting on this subject! God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
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Posted - 2011.10.13 11:45:00 -
[393] - Quote
Just gonna cloak up here and wait for the snipe. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
125
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 11:49:00 -
[394] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Thing is i want a method to catch cloakers. Not because they prevent me from ratting because i can rat just fine with them on system.. but because i don't like the idea of anything being 100% safe while flying in space. Overheat, cloak fuel, probe that drops me within 10km from him i don't care.
Local or no local I want to have tools to find him.
Or are you scared of being popped? You want to be perfectly safe, pretty thing?
There's more to life than null. You nerf cloaking you severely nerf wormholes. Being able to be undetectable while cloaked is critical to wormhole operations. Anything that violates the integrity of the cloaking device has severe repercussions to areas outside your little fluffy null space garden. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 11:53:00 -
[395] - Quote
I hope you realize that you can make more money botting in empire and not even have to deal with this stuff.
Just think of all the money you'll save on rent. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
125
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 12:12:00 -
[396] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:If my plan interferes with you then so be it. Because just about any other plan would SERIOUSLY impact active cloaking.
How would you like to be watching a POS and then decloak because you forgot to refuel the cloak fuel? POS guns say hai and you lose your shiny ship. How would you like to suddenly decloak from a "Solar effect" or other system? I will support them over nothing being done but I feel my plan has the best chance to have the least impact on active cloaking.
Your plan has a tremendously negative impact on all cloaking, be it active or inactive. ANYTHING that prevents the ability to cloak as long as wanted or needed is a nerf to the entire wormhole culture. You completely disrupt the ability to covertly gather intel on an enemy system in order to plan for an operation. Secrecy is required, and the most successful (and profitable) ops come when intel gathering pilot is simply never seen... the first clue the enemy has that something is happening is when they log on and see the "Oh ****!" emails the pos sent to them. Like I mentioned before, you may need to be cloaked and unmoving for hours a day for days on end to gather accurate intel, and I've seen someone amazingly dedicated enough to do exactly that.
So, by popular request, I'll repost my solution to the non-issue... a solution that actually improves (in my opinion) upon the current system and makes life a little more interesting.
1. When a ship cloaks it is removed from local. No one in the system can see that the pilot is in system.
2. When a ship cloaks it also loses the ability to use local. You can't see who's in local, you can't use local for intel gathering. Covops vessels, for example, would have to actively engage in the intel gathering process, much like in wormholes. You have options already to do this... using DScan, using probes, flying to various locations and simply watching.
So that this point here, we have a cloaked ship in a system that's truly cloaked. He's hidden from the system and the system, outside of his own actions, is hidden from him. He's actively gathering intel, or he's cloaked afk somewhere affecting noone, it doesn't matter. The local denizens have no idea if he's even there. However, to balance the "hot drop" issue, we include:
3. When a ship decloaks, there's a delay in being able to activate a cyno. Call it 15, 30 seconds, whatever. Give ships a fighting chance to escape from the invisible cloaker they never knew was there. Possible exception... Black Ops ships could be allowed no delay in lighting the cyno. Gives them a bigger role in the game, no?
But there you go, a solid framework that would not only end the whole "afk cloaker" faux-controversy but turn intel gathering into a more active endeavour and act a bit of tactical usage to cloaks. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
482
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 12:14:00 -
[397] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:If my plan interferes with you then so be it. Because just about any other plan would SERIOUSLY impact active cloaking. Funnily enough, no. The Angsty one's plan would have a very tiny impact on cloaking.
Quote:I will support them over nothing being done GǪand yet, the fundamental question remains: why does anything need to be done?
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
GusHobbleton
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.10.13 13:04:00 -
[398] - Quote
i once sat cloaked, and at my computer, for 20 hours to catch a rorqual that had logged out at a moon. i would never have killed htat rorqual without a cloking device, thank you ccp |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
21
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Posted - 2011.10.13 13:10:00 -
[399] - Quote
Thread cleaned from off-topic posts. Please stay on topic. Thank you! CCP Phantom. CCP Phantom | German Community Coordinator |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
126
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 13:14:00 -
[400] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Thread cleaned from off-topic posts. Please stay on topic. Thank you! CCP Phantom.
Heya Phantom, I don't suppose you'd be willing to give CCP's perspective on things, would you? It could go a long way to reducing some of the more ridiculous ideas being vomited out... Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
28
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Posted - 2011.10.13 13:35:00 -
[401] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:If my plan interferes with you then so be it.. At least with Ingvar Angst's idea, there is little effect on the active cloaker. It removes the reason for AFK cloaking and also balances out the hot drop mechanic.
You want all the intel power of local to remain and then more power on top of that, so you can blob the lone AFK guy. That is not a balanced approach. CCP Zulu.....Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 13:42:00 -
[402] - Quote
There is no solution because there is no problem. Quit treating cloaking like the "Jewish problem" in 1940's Germany, mmm'kay? We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
486
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 14:07:00 -
[403] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:Thread cleaned from off-topic posts. Please stay on topic. Thank you! CCP Phantom. Heya Phantom, I don't suppose you'd be willing to give CCP's perspective on things, would you? It could go a long way to reducing some of the more ridiculous ideas being vomited out... Looking at the 0.0 revamp discussions, their perspective seem to bee that the current intel tool (e.g. local) are too easy and too powerful... GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Herold Oldtimer
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.10.13 14:21:00 -
[404] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:Thread cleaned from off-topic posts. Please stay on topic. Thank you! CCP Phantom. Heya Phantom, I don't suppose you'd be willing to give CCP's perspective on things, would you? It could go a long way to reducing some of the more ridiculous ideas being vomited out...
I doubt they will, as it would be quoted to hell and back as the end-all-argument-point. But I've been wrong before.
Keeping this discussion going for as long as possible gives them good feedback on what we as the playerbase currently feel about it. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
80
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 15:11:00 -
[405] - Quote
Herold Oldtimer wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:Thread cleaned from off-topic posts. Please stay on topic. Thank you! CCP Phantom. Heya Phantom, I don't suppose you'd be willing to give CCP's perspective on things, would you? It could go a long way to reducing some of the more ridiculous ideas being vomited out... I doubt they will, as it would be quoted to hell and back as the end-all-argument-point. But I've been wrong before. Keeping this discussion going for as long as possible gives them good feedback on what we as the playerbase currently feel about it.
hardly, unless you consider the less than 20 people posting in this thread constitutes the playerbase
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:21:00 -
[406] - Quote
Quote:Actually pointing a gun at someone period is assault, and it is indeed a threat, unless you are law enforcement or military it is also illegal. I've reported you for making physical threats.
LOL, well thanks for allowing us to read no further in your post as you've just proved your IQ must be in the single figures! Seriously who did I threaten exactly? If you can't see that I was using this as an example, well I fear that there isn't much anyone can do to help you short of a brain implant.
Oh and in most countries in the world, pointing a gun at someone is 'Threatening behaviour' not assault. Shooting them is assault/GBH/Attempted Murder/Manslaughter/Murder depending on the damage done and provable intent.
Quote:How do you know how much effort they're putting into being in that system, maybe he's making 1000 bookmarks for everything in system,
Then there isn't a problem.... hes putting in the effort. If you had bothered to actually read the thread you would realise this has been said all along.
Quote:Lvl 4's are for scrubs, people that want to make money go to wormholes and do incursions.
Well, make the loot from sanctums e.t.c. as good as from WHs then there would be a problem since risk vs reward would again be balanced. The problem is it currently ISN'T balanced... again did you bother to read the thread?
Quote:Stealthbombers also have no tank at all, if your botting program was any good, or you weren't afk yourself, you'd just turn your guns on the offending stealth bomber and watch him go up in smoke.
You clearly have no idea how to fit a SB for cyno/tackle do you. Also, you have approx 3-4 seconds MAX to kill it before **** is landing on top of you, thats 1-2 volleys, at 22km distance, with a decent transversal.......
Not going to happen unless the SB is a ******. Also I'm not in PL so I don't feel the need to bot and/or cheat like you guys. And no that isn't an unfounded accusation, Nmeh was regularly using the 'don't appear in local exploit' before it was fixed against us.
"And yes actually, its called intel channels, one poor guy might get took but then it should be all over your intel channels that a hostile hot drop gang is in the area. At that point you would be organizing the trap to take them out of your space.
But you won't do that, it requires that you not be running a bot."
Still not botting, still never botted and still don't run anomalies myself. As I mentioned previously (If you bothered to read the thread AGAIN) I make my ISK other ways. AFK cloakies don't affect me at all.
Also, a smart team will HD ONE target and then move on. If you try that they you will just waste hours of your fleets time, normally for max 1 SB/recon kill. Not worth it.
Finally, not everyone is in a massive alliance. Null-sec is liveable for smaller alliances/corps as well (as stated by CCP), who don't have this option given the massive number of normal jumps that capitals can often cover in a matter of seconds. Also again (had you bothered to read the thread) this involves the defenders putting in massively more effort than the attackers, again unbalanced.
"That takes effort, and in the end it paid off with a dead nyx. I'm already sitting still for 6 hours, I don't feel like moving, the target I needed to watch was a tower, I shouldn't have to warp off and back because you want to bot in freedom."
And what gives you the right to be able to sit there motionless for hours in hostile space? Would it have been sooo bad to have to make a 2nd bookmark and warp between the two occasionally?
"The thing you are complaining about has been named a Valid Tactic by CCP themselves, at many a Fanfest over the years, its called Resource Denial."
Again, try reading the thread. No-one was complaing about resource denial. The problem is about AFK players been able to deny resources to active players. It should take active play to counter active play, otherwise the effort levels required are so far out of wack that something is seriously messed up!.
"Can you prove 100% that the person in your local is AFK?
Until you can prove it, then you are making this all up in your head, and there is no way for you to prove they are AFK.
That is an argument against it."
No its the other way round..... Unless you can prove they are afk, you have to assume they aren't. When you see 30 ships sitting on a gate camping it, you don't assume they are all afk do you? No you assume they are all active and ready to kill you. Same with cloakers.
"if someone is parked in a ratting system I just find a different system to rat in until they leave."
Lovely for the big alliances, now what about smaller alliances without that option? Or do you think the game should be solely based around you? How many SBs would it take to put one in EVERY test system. Think about that next time you are fighting DRF for example.
"yet you never see TEST whining about afk cloakers "
Errrr, yes we did, quite a few times when I was in Northen Co. More than almost any other alliance actually.
"Virtually all of the afk cloaker whine seems to come from lolrenters."
Probably cos they don't have 30+ systems to choose from to rat in?
"Jesus, these people would never make it in a wormhole."
Lived in WHs for a few months thanks. Its more risky but more profitable so all is good.
As a final point -
I agree that Local is FAR too powerful a Intel tool, however until a proper scanner system can be implemented (without causing loads of lag) its here to stay. This isn't about Local. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2339
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:26:00 -
[407] - Quote
How many months or years has this thread or ones like it been going and accomplishing nothing? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
489
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:29:00 -
[408] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:How many months or years has this thread or ones like it been going and accomplishing nothing? For about as many months and years that AFK cloaking hasn't been a problemGǪ so, roughly all of them.
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
145
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:42:00 -
[409] - Quote
All i've seen in this thread are ratters scared of the contacts in local, and the "pvpers" who think its impossible to hide without a cloaking device. Both pathetic. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:48:00 -
[410] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Again, try reading the thread. No-one was complaing about resource denial. The problem is about AFK players been able to deny resources to active players. It should take active play to counter active play, otherwise the effort levels required are so far out of wack that something is seriously messed up!. Please do tell, how they do this whilst AFK.Rhinanna wrote:As a final point -
I agree that Local is FAR too powerful a Intel tool, however until a proper scanner system can be implemented (without causing loads of lag) its here to stay. This isn't about Local. No one with any idea of balance, is asking for local to be removed without a package of changes to take it's place, but as it stands local gives you intel on a plate. AFKing simply tries to subvert it's instant intel.
You say this isn't about local, but please tell me... What are they using to interact with you whilst AFK? What is it they are using, to make this a feasible method of psychological warfare? The fact you don't even need a cloak for this to work, should tell you where the issue is.
CCP Zulu.....Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2339
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:50:00 -
[411] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:All i've seen in this thread are ratters scared of the contacts in local, and the "pvpers" who think its impossible to hide without a cloaking device. Both pathetic. You didn't notice those of us who are saying that this isn't an issue? |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
145
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:51:00 -
[412] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Rhinanna wrote:Again, try reading the thread. No-one was complaing about resource denial. The problem is about AFK players been able to deny resources to active players. It should take active play to counter active play, otherwise the effort levels required are so far out of wack that something is seriously messed up!. Please do tell, how they do this whilst AFK. Rhinanna wrote:As a final point -
I agree that Local is FAR too powerful a Intel tool, however until a proper scanner system can be implemented (without causing loads of lag) its here to stay. This isn't about Local. No one with any idea of balance, is asking for local to be removed without a package of changes to take it's place, but as it stands local gives you intel on a plate. AFKing simply tries to subvert it's instant intel. You say this isn't about local, but please tell me... What are they using to interact with you whilst AFK? What is it they are using, to make this a feasible method of psychological warfare? The fact you don't even need a cloak for this to work, should tell you where the issue is.
This post i agree with.
Lyris Nairn wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:All i've seen in this thread are ratters scared of the contacts in local, and the "pvpers" who think its impossible to hide without a cloaking device. Both pathetic. You didn't notice those of us who are saying that this isn't an issue?
So those would have no problem with cloaking detection mechanics, however hard and troublesome they might be, with or without local? If so i apologize to those, because you stand in the same position as i do. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
129
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:59:00 -
[413] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:So those would have no problem with cloaking detection mechanics, however hard and troublesome they might be, with or without local? If so i apologize to those, because you stand in the same position as i do.
Any type of cloaking detection would have a dramatically bad effect on wormhole life. The only way to rid the mythical "afk cloaker" problem without negatively affecting W-space, which requires not being detectable while cloaked, is to address the real problem, that of the cloaked individual being seen in local.
This has already been addressed, yet strangely ignored by those that would choose to break the game for their own personal benefit. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:10:00 -
[414] - Quote
Quote:Please do tell, how they do this whilst AFK.
If I point a gun at your head, then tell you not to do something or I'll shoot you, then you aren't going to do it are you? Its the same thing. A cloaker in local is effectively pointing a cyno at anyone in system.
Now, if I should step behind a wall and poke the barrel through a piece of fabric covering a whole in the wall (making it clear I can still see you as a cloaker can also via local/d-scan), are you going to risk doing it? After all, theres no proof I'm am still holding the gun at all. I could of gone to sleep for all you know. The point is you DON'T know. However would you take the risk? I'm willing to bet the answer is no in all but extremely rare circumstances (or incredibly stupid people)
Its about POTENTIAL damage, particually if you are trying to make ISK. Losing a ship sets that back a long way and puts Null so far behind L4s or Incursions or WHs that its pointless to be in Null at all.
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Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
145
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:17:00 -
[415] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:So those would have no problem with cloaking detection mechanics, however hard and troublesome they might be, with or without local? If so i apologize to those, because you stand in the same position as i do. Any type of cloaking detection would have a dramatically bad effect on wormhole life. The only way to rid the mythical "afk cloaker" problem without negatively affecting W-space, which requires not being detectable while cloaked, is to address the real problem, that of the cloaked individual being seen in local. This has already been addressed, yet strangely ignored by those that would choose to break the game for their own personal benefit.
Also strangely ignored is the fact that I, personally, could care less about local.
Local has nothing to do with this. At least not in the way i'm putting it. And i agree that there are people ignoring that local will be removed just like there are people ignoring what I am saying. Or at least failing to comprehend.
I've seen ideas that make searching for a cloaked ship incredibly troublesome, but possible. In wormholes, you have no local therefore you have no indication that someone has entered the system. So unless you think people would be paranoid enough to keep scanning their own systems 23.5/7 you should have no problem with this.
What you do want is to keep doing whatever it is that you're doing with zero chance of being found no matter how skilled the other players are. Like i said so many pages ago, some of you people .sound exactly like hi-sec miners. The difference being that while they ask for complete safety, you already have it. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
129
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:17:00 -
[416] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Quote:Please do tell, how they do this whilst AFK. If I point a gun at your head, then tell you not to do something or I'll shoot you, then you aren't going to do it are you? Its the same thing. A cloaker in local is effectively pointing a cyno at anyone in system. Now, if I should step behind a wall and poke the barrel through a piece of fabric covering a whole in the wall (making it clear I can still see you as a cloaker can also via local/d-scan), are you going to risk doing it? After all, theres no proof I'm am still holding the gun at all. I could of gone to sleep for all you know. The point is you DON'T know. However would you take the risk? I'm willing to bet the answer is no in all but extremely rare circumstances (or incredibly stupid people) Its about POTENTIAL damage, particually if you are trying to make ISK. Losing a ship sets that back a long way and puts Null so far behind L4s or Incursions or WHs that its pointless to be in Null at all.
These concerns, as unfounded as they are, are exactly what my proposal would alleviate without negatively affecting wormholes.
You're throwing ideas out there without taking into account the game as a whole. You're only trying to change a little thing you see as a problem with no concerns for the ripple effects such a change would have. You're trying to turn null, and as a side effect wormholes, into warm, cuddly safe playgrounds and forgetting that these systems are meant to be inherently dangerous. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
145
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:23:00 -
[417] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:You're trying to turn null, and as a side effect wormholes, into warm, cuddly safe playgrounds and forgetting that these systems are meant to be inherently dangerous.
Except for cloaked ships? Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
129
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:26:00 -
[418] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:You're trying to turn null, and as a side effect wormholes, into warm, cuddly safe playgrounds and forgetting that these systems are meant to be inherently dangerous. Except for cloaked ships?
Interesting use of evasive maneuvers. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2350
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:29:00 -
[419] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:You're trying to turn null, and as a side effect wormholes, into warm, cuddly safe playgrounds and forgetting that these systems are meant to be inherently dangerous. Except for cloaked ships? Interesting use of evasive maneuvers. Belay that phaser order, fire photon torpedoes! |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2350
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:31:00 -
[420] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:All i've seen in this thread are ratters scared of the contacts in local, and the "pvpers" who think its impossible to hide without a cloaking device. Both pathetic. You didn't notice those of us who are saying that this isn't an issue? So those would have no problem with cloaking detection mechanics, however hard and troublesome they might be, with or without local? If so i apologize to those, because you stand in the same position as i do. Yeah, I don't care about this issue at all. I mean, I care enough to post in a thread about it but that's mostly for the entertainment value of watching people talk themselves in circles of cognitive dissonance. Whatever change that does or does not happen, competent people will adapt and incompetent people will whine on the forums. |
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