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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
259
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
His article seemed to focus on jump freighters, and logistical issues. I don't think anyone has issues with that. Supply your little respective empires to your hearts content. I'd argue the main issue is with the Titan Bridge. The ability to drop an insane fleet at distance is what makes null so safe. Who can be bothered to deal with that? No wonder everyone is so blue! No-one wants a titan bridge landing on their face.
An interesting read though, and here's to me hoping for another article focusing on Titan Bridges! Though i imagine the mittani will have a similar position, that of all the alliances looking to protect their interests, looking to keep it as it is. That way, they can keep making tons of isk in complete safety whilst moaning about highsec. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6362
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 21:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350.
"I want to be able to stomp people without risk of interference from PL" ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3309
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 21:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
FourierTransformer wrote:Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time. Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Fanatic Row
DED Drug Enforcement Department
7
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
Andski wrote:iskflakes wrote:A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350. "I want to be able to stomp people without risk of interference from PL" "I want to play EVE without billion ISK ships CCP can't get to scale at all; ruining it en masse"
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:His article seemed to focus on jump freighters, and logistical issues. I don't think anyone has issues with that. Supply your little respective empires to your hearts content.
mynnna wrote:Sofia Wolf wrote:First fallacy is red herring of discussing exclusively how jump mechanics will affect solitary trading and supply jump freighters when actual need for change comes from excessive ease of deploying massive blobs of combat capitals and super capitals.
Second is that nerfing of jump drive mechanics could not be done in a way that would not affect typical way jump fighters are used. This is incorrect, there is no reason why default jump freighter jump rage could not be increased to compensate for jump calibration nerf. Jump freighters are a necessary part of nullsec life and will continue to be such into the forseeable future, even after any notional buffs to local industry. Their use as a logistical backbone also dovetailed nicely with illustrating that Eve is bigger than many people seem to think, which is just one of the problems with range nerf proposals.
But, you know, let's not read the thread before posting or anything. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Fanatic Row
DED Drug Enforcement Department
8
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:FourierTransformer wrote:Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time. Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives. Hint: WHs with enough mass to allow capitals, usually don't exit in hi-sec |
Cid Tazer
The Green Cross Against ALL Anomalies
14
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts: -> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict. -> Add a 30 second post jump lock delay from cyno/titan bridging. Some kind of lore reason but to minimize hot drop o'clock from non black ops ships. If you want to hot drop o'clock, I think blops fleets are more appropriate than Abaddons for instance. -> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking. -> Slightly shrink the range of a titan bridge (Jump Portal).
I know that I enjoy using titan bridges (thank you titan pilots for those) but the fact that you can bridge longer from a titan than a covert ops cyno can bridge seems backwards to me since black ops are supposed to be able to strike deep into enemy territory. |
Arronicus
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
60
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
The ignorance of OPs post is astounding. "Everyone in 0.0 belongs to one of four major coalitions." No, they do not. There are many corporations and small alliances, some of which have already been listed, some of which have not, like aperture harmonics, gang bang, hun reloaded, the g0dfathers, who use capitals on a VERY regular basis, who would stand to suffer from the changes you propose.
While original blog post you (the OP) are complaining about is indeed flaw, your post is even more so biased and flawed.
You claim that a JDC nerf would hurt major alliances, which in some respect it would but they are the best equipped to compensate, find new methods to deal with the problem, etc. However, when confronted with the issue of how your proposed nerf would stifle development of new alliances, power blocks, WH dwellers, and other people just trying to move some capital ships around, your only response is that they do not exist ("Everyone is part of one of the 4 major blocks")
Thanks, but I'd rather not live in your proposed eve. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3309
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 21:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
Fanatic Row wrote:Andski wrote:iskflakes wrote:A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350. "I want to be able to stomp people without risk of interference from PL" "I want to play EVE without billion ISK ships CCP can't get to scale at all; ruining it en masse" "I've never even been in nullsec but I have an opinion on supercaps anyway!" Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3309
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 21:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cid Tazer wrote:Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts: -> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict. -> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.
I think these two are reasonable, but not the others. Nobody hotdrops with Abaddons, by the way. It's usually battlecruisers, typically Hurricanes. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
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Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
139
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
as a solo pilot living in low/NPC null, i'm not a fan of nerfing jump drive ranges. doing this would hurt small-time operators such as myself and help keep vast areas of null completely empty. with current jump drive ranges, i can setup small operations in NPC null regions without an extensive POS or Cyno network. reducing the jump range of caps would ensure that only those large organizations with sufficient logistical support could live and thrive in null. |
Tarsas Phage
Disposition Matrix
121
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Some Rando wrote:Mynnna speaks from experience in a sov-holding null-sec alliance. OP speaks from experience gained from a Youtube video. Mynnna is an obvious member of a sov-holding null-sec alliance. OP is a member of a high-sec NPC corp.
OP is speaking a little bit out of their league. Ignore who is speaking, look at what is being said. Otherwise you have appeal to authority fallacy.
Post with your main or GTFO. |
Cid Tazer
The Green Cross Against ALL Anomalies
15
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Posted - 2013.01.15 21:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Cid Tazer wrote:Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts: -> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict. -> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.
I think these two are reasonable, but not the others.
Any particular reason on the short no locking or slightly shorter titan bridge ranges (maybe 5%)? I was trying to find a way to differentiate between hot drop o'clock (covert ops portal) and rapid fleet movement (jump portal). I figure that with a 30 second no lock timer, you would be able to bridge into system but at a safer location than directly into a battle. If you want to bridge right on top, I think a covert ops portal is more appropriate. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6362
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 21:55:00 -
[44] - Quote
"Heh CCP nerfed cynos, okay everyone in cyno carriers jump, light and everyone else jump to whichever one is closest alphabetically to you" ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3309
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 21:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Cid Tazer wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Cid Tazer wrote:Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts: -> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict. -> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.
I think these two are reasonable, but not the others. Any particular reason on the short no locking or slightly shorter titan bridge ranges (maybe 5%)? I was trying to find a way to differentiate between hot drop o'clock (covert ops portal) and rapid fleet movement (jump portal). I figure that with a 30 second no lock timer, you would be able to bridge into system but at a safer location than directly into a battle. If you want to bridge right on top, I think a covert ops portal is more appropriate. Because there's no particular reason I shouldn't be allowed to hotdrop with a titan bridge? Restricting this capability to black ops only severely reduces the ships that you can do this with. Titan bridge ranges are already pretty short. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Tarsas Phage
Disposition Matrix
121
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:FourierTransformer wrote:Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time. Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives.
If you WH opens up to 0.0, 10ly from the closest empire lowsec system, and you need to get a resupply carrier/rorq/JF in, are you going to:
A) bother with finding a WH chain to lowsec, or B) light a cyno in the 0.0 your WH exits to and jump straight there and enter WH.
WH corps don't of course use jump drives in their WHs, they use them to get to and [i[between[/i] them (via k-space) quite often.
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Cid Tazer
The Green Cross Against ALL Anomalies
15
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Posted - 2013.01.15 22:02:00 -
[47] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Cid Tazer wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Cid Tazer wrote:Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts: -> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict. -> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.
I think these two are reasonable, but not the others. Any particular reason on the short no locking or slightly shorter titan bridge ranges (maybe 5%)? I was trying to find a way to differentiate between hot drop o'clock (covert ops portal) and rapid fleet movement (jump portal). I figure that with a 30 second no lock timer, you would be able to bridge into system but at a safer location than directly into a battle. If you want to bridge right on top, I think a covert ops portal is more appropriate. Because there's no particular reason I shouldn't be allowed to hotdrop with a titan bridge? Restricting this capability to black ops only severely reduces the ships that you can do this with. Titan bridge ranges are already pretty short.
If a titan bridge lets you move massive fleets quickly and drop them anywhere with no penalty at ranges longer than a covert ops portal, why would anyone invest the SP and effort into using a Covert Ops Portal/Cyno gen if Covert Ops portals don't do anything better than a titan bridge? From what I've seen and used, the bonus of a covert ops bridge not being visible to the entire system is pretty weak compared to what a titan bridge does. |
Selw kotsidakia
Three Deep Cuts
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
If i recall well, werent goons qqing about a single frigate being able to pop hundrends of supers while Raiden&allies were holding them that way in the north last winter? Now they are ok with that? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6362
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:03:00 -
[49] - Quote
Selw kotsidakia wrote:If i recall well, werent goons qqing about a single frigate being able to pop hundrends of supers while Raiden&allies were holding them that way in the north last winter? Now they are ok with that?
npc alt with nothing to add as usual ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
220
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Posted - 2013.01.15 22:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ok so what we have here, is 2 sides (actually 3 since Mynna is focused primarily on freighting) arguing about nerfing jumpdrives and the fact of warping all over to insta gank a huge force with a bigger blob of their own.
Let's not change any of that then.
Let's change the detrimental aspect of the ships using those benefits!
You like cloaking but your ships isn't "designed" for cloaking? Enjoy 30 seconds of not doing a damned thing after you decloaked.
You like jumping in a non jumping ship (jf etc) enjoy a 120 second timer of not doing a damned thing once you land. Call it a "magnetic realignment".
That way, you have a force that is required to prepare when jumping in. You have smaller groups who want to try to regulate their fights. Noone loses control. Everyone wins.
Granted, not "everyone" since there will still be casualties. But there is a pro and a con to it all that A)is fair to large and small and freight!, and B)introduces a mechanic to an existing feature that really doesn't HARM anyone regardless of what area of sector space they live in. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6363
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:06:00 -
[51] - Quote
if you'll notice nobody is talking about single frigates opening cynos, something which is still dumb as hell because it allows the placement of disposable rookie ship cyno alts all over the map but hey carry on ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3309
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
Cid Tazer wrote:If a titan bridge lets you move massive fleets quickly and drop them anywhere with no penalty at ranges longer than a covert ops portal, why would anyone invest the SP and effort into using a Covert Ops Portal/Cyno gen if Covert Ops portals don't do anything better than a titan bridge? From what I've seen and used, the bonus of a covert ops bridge not being visible to the entire system is pretty weak compared to what a titan bridge does. That's strange, because we have absolutely no shortage of people doing covert hot drops.
Black ops are much cheaper than titans, they're much quicker to train for, they can dock, they're much easier and safer to move around, they can use stargates, and they can bridge from deep within enemy territory without needing a safe POS, something a lone titan pilot would be stupid to try. The fleets they bridge also have significantly expanded maneuverability due to the fact that every ship has a covops cloak and is cruiser sized or smaller. Yes they do need a buff, but their bridge does have a distinct and separate role from a titan bridge already. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6363
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:08:00 -
[53] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:You like jumping in a non jumping ship (jf etc) enjoy a 120 second timer of not doing a damned thing once you land. Call it a "magnetic realignment".
This is dumb because it'd make supercaps literally immune when tacklers can't do a damn thing after being bridged in and they'd have plenty of warning when hostile tacklers are on the way ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
FourierTransformer
4
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Posted - 2013.01.15 22:09:00 -
[54] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:FourierTransformer wrote:Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time. Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives. You sir are clearly well versed and experienced on the topic in question. I concede defeat. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3309
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:12:00 -
[55] - Quote
FourierTransformer wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:FourierTransformer wrote:Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time. Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives. You sir are clearly well versed and experienced on the topic in question. I concede defeat. I wasn't saying you don't use them, you just don't use them as often or for the same reasons we do. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1479
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Posted - 2013.01.15 22:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
Andski wrote:if you'll notice nobody is talking about single frigates opening cynos, something which is still dumb as hell because it allows the placement of disposable rookie ship cyno alts all over the map but hey carry on I keep wanting to meniton this, but I feel like it exceeds my own actual knowledge of how things work in EVE.
I think more people should probably think about this.
lol, I said more people should think. I'm an idiot. |
Fanatic Row
DED Drug Enforcement Department
10
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:17:00 -
[57] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:"I've never even been in nullsec but I have an opinion on supercaps anyway!" "Everyone in 0.0 has hi-sec ISK alts; except me!"
Seriously, that schtick is getting old. Even if I had never been in 0.0, it's not like all those pro 0.0 players have done such an awesome job tending to their own sandbox. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
325
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
Wow, this whole topic has really gone downhill fast...
What's the reasoning where you have a detailed opinion on things you are utterly clueless of? I really don't get it...
The nature of force projection in Eve, its relation to other issues in nullsec, and the mechanics involved are all pretty complex on their own, never mind altogether. Yet for some reason people believe that fifty clueless monkeys flinging their poop at the walls is going to "solve" something.
Honestly, just step back for a minute and think about this. |
FourierTransformer
4
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Posted - 2013.01.15 22:21:00 -
[59] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:FourierTransformer wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:FourierTransformer wrote:Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time. Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives. You sir are clearly well versed and experienced on the topic in question. I concede defeat. I wasn't saying you don't use them, you just don't use them as often or for the same reasons we do. As I and other posters have said, you clearly have more experience and knowledge than I do in this topic. I defer to your clearly superior knowledge on all things WH life.
/sarcasm off You clearly have never been in wh for any length of time. There exist c5's and c6's with dozens (sometimes hundreds) of caps and jf's. Where you're corp runs the same same jump routes to lowsec over and over, most respectable wh alliances run new routes every day through hostile space. If anything, they have more experience with jump drive logistics than you do. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3309
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
Fanatic Row wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"I've never even been in nullsec but I have an opinion on supercaps anyway!" "Everyone in 0.0 has hi-sec ISK alts; except me!" I don't, actually.
Fanatic Row wrote:Seriously, that schtick is getting old. Even if I had never been in 0.0, it's not like all those pro 0.0 players have done such an awesome job tending to their own sandbox. We've done just fine, thank you. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
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