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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
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Posted - 2012.12.14 10:31:00 -
[91] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:One of the best things about that fit is that EFT warriors like you will never understand what makes it so great. The thing about it is that the 100mn AB is fantastic at mitigating damage from larger sources than frigates. In a lot of ways, a mitigation tank works much better than an actual active tank - though combining the two can lead to some hilarious results. Even the web isn't just there for frigates - though I admit it works marvelously for them.
-Liang
Oh i know perfectly well how oversized ab ships behave, the problem with the talos is that due to guns, if you can hit them they can hit you, especially as you dont outtrack any close range medium guns. Furthermore you dont have a scram on there meaning they will be able to keep up and simply win the dps/ehp race! |
Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
161
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 11:37:00 -
[92] - Quote
I'm just going to leave my two cents on the Talos. It's not a niche boat by any means. It's a wonderful ship and nothing needs to be changed about it. The ability to hit a target out to 50km with Null and still do 1600 m/s with roughly 800 dps makes it such a joy to fly.
There I said it. Other hulls it feels like a chore. Others you need to faction fit to make them stand out for a certain role but the Talos all I do is hop in it and it feels so natural to fly. I know what I can do in this ship. Sure it's "squishy" but that isn't the point. Kiting and speed while laying on excellent damage is just so so nice.
Slap some ECM drones in there and it's even better. I would say a pre nerf shield nano Cane the standard for a Piracy ship but the Talos is on the top of my list. It's why I have three fully fitted ready to go and refuse to sell any to even corp members. |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
222
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Posted - 2012.12.14 12:20:00 -
[93] - Quote
Sister Lumi wrote:HACs didn't need anything to kill them, most of them are obsoleted by their own terribleness Confirming that my 'lone eagle became sentient at one point and made her only good move by self-reprocessing herself.
BECAUSE OF NAGA |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2376
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Posted - 2012.12.14 15:41:00 -
[94] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:One of the best things about that fit is that EFT warriors like you will never understand what makes it so great. The thing about it is that the 100mn AB is fantastic at mitigating damage from larger sources than frigates. In a lot of ways, a mitigation tank works much better than an actual active tank - though combining the two can lead to some hilarious results. Even the web isn't just there for frigates - though I admit it works marvelously for them.
-Liang Oh i know perfectly well how oversized ab ships behave, the problem with the talos is that due to guns, if you can hit them they can hit you, especially as you dont outtrack any close range medium guns. Furthermore you dont have a scram on there meaning they will be able to keep up and simply win the dps/ehp race!
I won a DPS/EHP race against a Proteus that landed at zero on me and scrammed me.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maeltstome
The Burning Red
143
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Posted - 2012.12.14 15:48:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I have removed a personal attack from this thread. Don't make me come back in here again.
Im guessing since my post is missing it was me - but i don't see how any of what i said was a personal attack. Unless my post simply quoted the afore-mentioned issue? |
Entrepreuna
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
23
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Posted - 2012.12.14 15:57:00 -
[96] - Quote
You guys are truly delusional if you do not think that the Talos made the Vagabond obsolete. Null can hit frigs from like 15-30km out. A Talos is basically a Vagabond but with Hybrids and way more DPS. The DPS is fine that's one thing. But again, it is WAY too mobile. Axe some of it's agility and a little bit of speed. This ship should not be some sort of LSE buffed kiting monster...... Anyone that says what I just wrote isn't true then you are delusional and biased because you actually fly this ship. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2377
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 16:18:00 -
[97] - Quote
Entrepreuna wrote:You guys are truly delusional if you do not think that the Talos made the Vagabond obsolete. Null can hit frigs from like 15-30km out. A Talos is basically a Vagabond but with Hybrids and way more DPS. The DPS is fine that's one thing. But again, it is WAY too mobile. Axe some of it's agility and a little bit of speed. This ship should not be some sort of LSE buffed kiting monster...... Anyone that says what I just wrote isn't true then you are delusional and biased because you actually fly this ship.
You are aware that we're talking about 1600 plate/trimkark armor tanking speeds in this thread right? The Vagabond should never even have been brought up.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Torothin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
210
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Posted - 2012.12.14 16:31:00 -
[98] - Quote
Anybody that thinks we are talking about armor tanking in this thread is a moron. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2377
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 18:25:00 -
[99] - Quote
Torothin wrote:Anybody that thinks we are talking about armor tanking in this thread is a moron.
The current consensus in this thread appears to be that 1600 m/s is "nano". That's the kind of speeds you can get by slapping a MWD, 1600 plate, and a few trimarks on something. Hell, that's battleship speeds. Obviously the Vagabond is obsolete when you're talking about things battleships are fine at.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Wuxi Wuxilla
The Tuskers
53
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Posted - 2012.12.14 19:25:00 -
[100] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Entrepreuna wrote:You guys are truly delusional if you do not think that the Talos made the Vagabond obsolete. Null can hit frigs from like 15-30km out. A Talos is basically a Vagabond but with Hybrids and way more DPS. The DPS is fine that's one thing. But again, it is WAY too mobile. Axe some of it's agility and a little bit of speed. This ship should not be some sort of LSE buffed kiting monster...... Anyone that says what I just wrote isn't true then you are delusional and biased because you actually fly this ship. You are aware that we're talking about 1600 plate/trimkark armor tanking speeds in this thread right? The Vagabond should never even have been brought up. -Liang
Bah, if anything we're talking about carrier speed here. 1600m/s unheated/unlinked for a BC is slow! You heard it here first. Really, sieged Dreads are faster.
How about you watch Kil2s stream once and see how well the Talos handles frigs. I know, looking outside of always-linked Amamake Ganks can be dangerous, but hey - Who dares, wins.
Oh, and please show me that killmail where you outbrawled a Proteus in your 100mn Talos. I really want to see that.
Oh, and while we're at it: How exactly are you avoiding dmg with that 100mn Talos besides staying at range? If you get under your opponents tracking you outrun your own guns. Even with 3 TEs you can't project dmg as well as the standard Talos fit. You explode if anything so much as sneezes at you. You give up one of the two things that make the t3 BCs what they are - Damage. |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2377
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 19:34:00 -
[101] - Quote
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote: Bah, if anything we're talking about carrier speed here. 1600m/s unheated/unlinked for a BC is slow! You heard it here first. Really, sieged Dreads are faster.
How about you watch Kil2s stream once and see how well the Talos handles frigs. I know, looking outside of always-linked Amamake Ganks can be dangerous, but hey - Who dares, wins.
Oh, and please show me that killmail where you outbrawled a Proteus in your 100mn Talos. I really want to see that.
Oh, and while we're at it: How exactly are you avoiding dmg with that 100mn Talos besides staying at range? If you get under your opponents tracking you outrun your own guns. Even with 3 TEs you can't project dmg as well as the standard Talos fit. You explode if anything so much as sneezes at you. You give up one of the two things that make the t3 BCs what they are - Damage.
A few comments: - I love how you try to cloud the issue about how slow 1600 m/s is. - I have watched Kil2's stream and I've listened to him talk about how powerless and defenseless he is every time he encounters a frigate. I used to watch his stream a lot, actually. :) - Just watch the video for the Proteus instead. - You avoid damage by having a low sig radius and by staying at range. I'm consistently able to avoid damage even from people who get on top of me. - With the 3 TEs I actually project damage better than the "kiting" Talos fit posted earlier. I also am significantly faster and have a frigate defense.
Basically this is just you not knowing how to fly your ships - or mine.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Wuxi Wuxilla
The Tuskers
53
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 19:48:00 -
[102] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: - I love how you try to cloud the issue about how slow 1600 m/s is.
Your own mighty 100mn Talos does 1740m/s. Thats not even 10% faster. After accelerating for 18secs. Neither the Drake, nor the Harby nor the Cane nor any Cruiser before Retribution besides Cyna/Vaga was faster. And nano-Drake/Cane/Harby worked, with 1200-1300m/s. I don't try to cloud the issue. There is no issue.
Liang Nuren wrote: - I have watched Kil2's stream and I've listened to him talk about how powerless and defenseless he is every time he encounters a frigate. I used to watch his stream a lot, actually. :)
Yeah, that happens quite often. You know what also happens quite often? Said frigate exploding two secounds later because he managed to keep transversal low and just blew it out of the sky.
Liang Nuren wrote: - Just watch the video for the Proteus instead.
I watched the only video I can in Germany, which has you flying a bunch of harpies, blobbing the living **** out of everything in Amamake. Your only killmail (that I could find) that has a proteus on it is you with a bunch of other guys with you not even being top damage.
Liang Nuren wrote: - With the 3 TEs I actually project damage better than the "kiting" Talos fit posted earlier. I also am significantly faster and have a frigate defense.
Your Talos has 15+27km range with Null, the standard fit has 16+29. 1740m/s is 9% faster and you probably never reach it unless you burn in a straight line all day. Thats "significant"?
Liang Nuren wrote: Basically this is just you not knowing how to fly your ships - or mine.
Yes, I'm sure that's it.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2378
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 20:27:00 -
[103] - Quote
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote: Your own mighty 100mn Talos does 1740m/s. Thats not even 10% faster. After accelerating for 18secs. Neither the Drake, nor the Harby nor the Cane nor any Cruiser before Retribution besides Cyna/Vaga was faster. And nano-Drake/Cane/Harby worked, with 1200-1300m/s. I don't try to cloud the issue. There is no issue.
Nano Drake/Cane/Harby was never really nano - certainly not in the sense that they every impinged upon the Vagabond's role. And nor does the Talos. Additionally, that is not how the Talos performs and you're welcome to watch the videos and see for yourself. I'd say I get ~3.2km/s and I've chased down 100mn Tengus and beat on them with it. Amusingly, it's almost 100% immune to their fire as well.
Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah, that happens quite often. You know what also happens quite often? Said frigate exploding two secounds later because he managed to keep transversal low and just blew it out of the sky.
You know what else happens quite often? Him blowing up.
Quote:] I watched the only video I can in Germany, which has you flying a bunch of harpies, blobbing the living **** out of everything in Amamake. Your only killmail (that I could find) that has a proteus on it is you with a bunch of other guys with you not even being top damage.
It's funny because it just goes to show how little information a killmail actually gives. That's such a good kill too. It's a shame you can't watch the video because the way that fight starts is with him landing at zero on me and me holding tackle while the cavalry arrives. It would have taken a long time but I wasn't in any danger after the first few seconds of the fight. And *THEN* I go nuke the T2 rigged Falcon that decloaked and jammed everyone.
Quote: Your Talos has 15+27km range with Null, the standard fit has 16+29. 1740m/s is 9% faster and you probably never reach it unless you burn in a straight line all day. Thats "significant"?
So it has equivalent range, much better tracking, is just as fast and pretty agile. Furthermore, its MWD doesn't turn off the moment anything gets within 15km. It works great in practice and has a frigate defense. Remember, playing Eve happens in Eve and there are some rather surprising differences to people who rely on only EFT to tell them what performs and what doesn't.
Quote:Yes, I'm sure that's it.
I've got hours and hours of footage in that ship -- fighting outnumbered and outshipped -- that says it is what's going on. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 22:54:00 -
[104] - Quote
Entrepreuna wrote:You guys are truly delusional if you do not think that the Talos made the Vagabond obsolete. Null can hit frigs from like 15-30km out. A Talos is basically a Vagabond but with Hybrids and way more DPS. The DPS is fine that's one thing. But again, it is WAY too mobile. Axe some of it's agility and a little bit of speed. This ship should not be some sort of LSE buffed kiting monster...... Anyone that says what I just wrote isn't true then you are delusional and biased because you actually fly this ship.
Assuming how your 40 man gangs despair when 10 of us show up in nano bc's and kite you then scatter leads me to believe you are just frustrated and annoyed. But coming from TEST kiddies I'd expect no less. Speed only has it's advantages before you are caught. They make these other ships called Interceptor's for a reason.
You want to fly a competent makeup of ships? Don't bring AHACS to a flipping nano fight. Or better yet bring tackle and a competent FC. The Talos is fine the way it is. Comparing the Talos to the Vaga is like comparing a Megathron to a Brutix. Sure one may have more paper dps but it has more mass, bigger guns, can track less, and is a bigger target.
A Vaga has it's place as well as the Talos has it's as well. Stop bitching because you don't know how to counter or fly nano. |
Voi Lutois
The Tough Guys
16
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 23:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:CCP Eterne wrote:I have removed a personal attack from this thread. Don't make me come back in here again. Im guessing since my post is missing it was me - but i don't see how any of what i said was a personal attack. Unless my post simply quoted the afore-mentioned issue?
Don't worry mine was removed for "trolling" because I used the word whine in my response.
Also GET EM LIANG!
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 01:04:00 -
[106] - Quote
Eve ate my orginal post :( .
In general, liang your videos show you at beeing at best a mediocre pvper which proves nothing in this discussion, your fit misses dps/range/ehp/agility to get sram immunity , it doesnt work solo (as anyone can just burn away) nor is it an actualy improvement over a real talos. (also 3200m/s is a number you achieve with heat and links, a mwd one has very similar speed)
The proteus killmail is bad and you could have done the same in a mwd talos (if youd suck less and handt been on 0 at the beginning). (same with the falcon)
100mn ships have their niche but its not a very big one and it certainly isnt what your using it in (blobbing people in amamake).
Lastly you can kite (kite not nano, even the vagabond isnt a naoship as nano=speed tank and it range tanks) with 1200m/s with no problem even without a web or neuts (watch for example fons rocket series for proof).
Lastly neither talos could actually do any harm at all to a competent 100mn tengu! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2381
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 03:41:00 -
[107] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Eve ate my orginal post :( .
In general, liang your videos show you at beeing at best a mediocre pvper which proves nothing in this discussion, your fit misses dps/range/ehp/agility to get sram immunity , it doesnt work solo (as anyone can just burn away) nor is it an actualy improvement over a real talos. (also 3200m/s is a number you achieve with heat and links, a mwd one has very similar speed)
The proteus killmail is bad and you could have done the same in a mwd talos (if youd suck less and handt been on 0 at the beginning). (same with the falcon)
100mn ships have their niche but its not a very big one and it certainly isnt what your using it in (blobbing people in amamake).
Lastly you can kite (kite not nano, even the vagabond isnt a naoship as nano=speed tank and it range tanks) with 1200m/s with no problem even without a web or neuts (watch for example fons rocket series for proof).
Lastly neither talos could actually do any harm at all to a competent 100mn tengu!
Wow, look how bad you are at this game. A few comments: - It's not like you can't fit the MFS. It's that it delivers less real DPS than the tracking enhancers, which double as helping apply damage to smaller fry. I could potentially see switching out one TE for a MFS, but then you lose out on range and that's just silly. - The primary goals of a 100mn fit is scram immunity and damage mitigation. That's what you're not understanding - you look at your pretty 30k EHP and it's a big number on EFT. But how does it fare when you're being focused fired by a bunch of BCs and battleships? - The Proteus in question warped into my position at zero after scan probing me out. Amusingly, this is what I *wanted* him to do. The MWD Proteus would have died quite quickly to a range linked scram Proteus, and claiming otherwise is... well, stupid. - I don't think that I'm the one blobbing when I'm fighting outnumbered and outshipped. I mean, perhaps there's blobbing going on, but I'm not the one doing it. - Yes, the Talos can do harm to a competent 100mn Tengu. I've done it. ;-)
Honestly, the more I talk to you guys the more I realize that Tuskers is full of terribads. 1600 m/s is nano and 1200 m/s is viable for kite tanking? Psch.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 03:58:00 -
[108] - Quote
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
18
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Posted - 2012.12.15 04:37:00 -
[109] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Eve ate my orginal post :( .
In general, liang your videos show you at beeing at best a mediocre pvper which proves nothing in this discussion, your fit misses dps/range/ehp/agility to get sram immunity , it doesnt work solo (as anyone can just burn away) nor is it an actualy improvement over a real talos. (also 3200m/s is a number you achieve with heat and links, a mwd one has very similar speed)
The proteus killmail is bad and you could have done the same in a mwd talos (if youd suck less and handt been on 0 at the beginning). (same with the falcon)
100mn ships have their niche but its not a very big one and it certainly isnt what your using it in (blobbing people in amamake).
Lastly you can kite (kite not nano, even the vagabond isnt a naoship as nano=speed tank and it range tanks) with 1200m/s with no problem even without a web or neuts (watch for example fons rocket series for proof).
Lastly neither talos could actually do any harm at all to a competent 100mn tengu! Wow, look how bad you are at this game. A few comments: - It's not like you can't fit the MFS. It's that it delivers less real DPS than the tracking enhancers, which double as helping apply damage to smaller fry. I could potentially see switching out one TE for a MFS, but then you lose out on range and that's just silly. - The primary goals of a 100mn fit is scram immunity and damage mitigation. That's what you're not understanding - you look at your pretty 30k EHP and it's a big number on EFT. But how does it fare when you're being focused fired by a bunch of BCs and battleships? - The Proteus in question warped into my position at zero after scan probing me out. Amusingly, this is what I *wanted* him to do. The MWD Proteus would have died quite quickly to a range linked scram Proteus, and claiming otherwise is... well, stupid. - I don't think that I'm the one blobbing when I'm fighting outnumbered and outshipped. I mean, perhaps there's blobbing going on, but I'm not the one doing it. - Yes, the Talos can do harm to a competent 100mn Tengu. I've done it. ;-) Honestly, the more I talk to you guys the more I realize that Tuskers is full of terribads. 1600 m/s is nano and 1200 m/s is viable for kite tanking? Psch. -Liang
I know perfectly well how a 100mn ab fit works (a proper one in a proper ship), but you dont migate a lot of damage, due to the way transversal works if you are able to hit them they can hit you, you also are to slow to really nano with it. The only damage you migate is that of a webless drake but you still arent fast/agile enough to hold it down (i.e if it swtcihes directions and heats you have pretty much no chance of holding it down).
Yes the 100mn ships can work but you dont get a similar performance out of them when you fly them without links/implants and even then they are worse at pretty much everything besides killing off frigates, webless drakes (which you can pretty much do in a void mwd talos anyways) and stationary battleships (which you pretty much never encounter). You also get the ability to fly at full speed at a 90% angle to a blob where you will tank quite a lot but you also wont track a thing.
What you lose and what imo is fatal to the ship is that it now loses to most cruisers, armor crusiers are now as fast as you with way more ehp and better agility (so they can click aproach web you and sit at 0, straight up winning the dps/ehp race) where a normal talso can kill them while they are aproaching as due to its agility they are a lot harder to catch (if you land 20km of a crusier in a ab talos you need forever to get to sufficient speed while a mwd talos can almost instanly speed up) and whats even worse, you loose to most shiled kiting cruisers in a straight dps/ehp race, a omen will win if it manages to start the fight under 30km!
And a cyna/vaga will now win vs you pretty comfortably.
Also from what i have seen in your videos (yes now i watched some of them) you simply blob people all day long.
And i have yet to see proove of you flying outbumbered/outshipped (and no ganking noobs in frigates is neither), and to say it again you cant kill competent 100mn tengus in your talos
And leave my corp out of this, it has nothing to do with my opinions. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2382
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 07:27:00 -
[110] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote: I know perfectly well how a 100mn ab fit works (a proper one in a proper ship), but you dont migate a lot of damage, due to the way transversal works if you are able to hit them they can hit you, you also are to slow to really nano with it. The only damage you migate is that of a webless drake but you still arent fast/agile enough to hold it down (i.e if it swtcihes directions and heats you have pretty much no chance of holding it down).
Yes the 100mn ships can work but you dont get a similar performance out of them when you fly them without links/implants and even then they are worse at pretty much everything besides killing off frigates, webless drakes (which you can pretty much do in a void mwd talos anyways) and stationary battleships (which you pretty much never encounter). You also get the ability to fly at full speed at a 90% angle to a blob where you will tank quite a lot but you also wont track a thing.
So.... in other words a 100mn nano fit should focus on tracking and damage application because otherwise they don't do any damage at all? ******* cool story bro, it's about time you caught up in the conversation. One thing you haven't considered is the fact that the Talos's sig radius isn't blown up by 500% while the MWDing ship after you is.
Quote: What you lose and what imo is fatal to the ship is that it now loses to most cruisers, armor crusiers are now as fast as you with way more ehp and better agility (so they can click aproach web you and sit at 0, straight up winning the dps/ehp race) where a normal talso can kill them while they are aproaching as due to its agility they are a lot harder to catch (if you land 20km of a crusier in a ab talos you need forever to get to sufficient speed while a mwd talos can almost instanly speed up) and whats even worse, you loose to most shiled kiting cruisers in a straight dps/ehp race, a omen will win if it manages to start the fight under 30km!
See, that's what I've been trying to get at here. Yes, the MWD Talos can speed up a fair bit faster than the Talos I was running there, but the difference isn't nearly as crippling as you seem to think it is. It's also not nearly as large as you think it is. At any rate, I know you think that all that'll happen is that I immediately get vaporized by the first cruiser that I land within 20km of, but the truth is that I'm looking at me starting a fight at 300m/s and being primaried at 20km by: - Harbinger - Deimos - Malediction - Drake - Hurricane - Hurricane - Hurricane
I survived and went on to do really well in the fight. It's true that the fight was a while back, but I'd have expected to be simply melted if what you said is correct. This is hardly a new or rare thing to happen in a fit like that - so I think your understanding of the way the fit works is fundamentally flawed.
Quote:And a cyna/vaga will now win vs you pretty comfortably.
I don't remember hearing about any Cynabal/Vaga changes recently, and they damn sure didn't do anything to be before the patch. What changed?
Quote:And leave my corp out of this, it has nothing to do with my opinions.
There's more than one of you up in here making absolutely silly comments. 1200m/s is good for kiting! 1600m/s is nano speeds.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2012.12.15 08:04:00 -
[111] - Quote
Liang why do you always have to ruin every discussion thread with your irrelevant epeen bullcrap? This is going nowhere. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
19
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Posted - 2012.12.15 08:18:00 -
[112] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
So.... in other words a 100mn nano fit should focus on tracking and damage application because otherwise they don't do any damage at all? ******* cool story bro, it's about time you caught up in the conversation. One thing you haven't considered is the fact that the Talos's sig radius isn't blown up by 500% while the MWDing ship after you is.
See, that's what I've been trying to get at here. Yes, the MWD Talos can speed up a fair bit faster than the Talos I was running there, but the difference isn't nearly as crippling as you seem to think it is. It's also not nearly as large as you think it is. At any rate, I know you think that all that'll happen is that I immediately get vaporized by the first cruiser that I land within 20km of, but the truth is that I'm looking at me starting a fight at 300m/s and being primaried at 20km by: - Harbinger - Deimos - Malediction - Drake - Hurricane - Hurricane - Hurricane
I survived and went on to do really well in the fight. It's true that the fight was a while back, but I'd have expected to be simply melted if what you said is correct. This is hardly a new or rare thing to happen in a fit like that - so I think your understanding of the way the fit works is fundamentally flawed.
I don't remember hearing about any Cynabal/Vaga changes recently, and they damn sure didn't do anything to be before the patch. What changed?
-Liang
Yes a 100mn should (if it isnt fit with missiles) be able to track well, im not saying that your 100mn talos is a bad 100mn talos, im saying its not as good in most situations as a 10mn talos (and that they are bad in general). And yes the reduced sig is nice vs missiles but you still arent a tiny ship even with an ab so medium turrets will still track you fine (especially as you cant orbit at 500 you will be a fair bit off all the time).
That you survived would be pretty impossible if they had really primaried you and you would have stayed at 20km (even an armor cane puts out vs your fit flying at the highest possible transversal at 20km 300dps, significantly more if it is an shield cane, a shiled harbi would do about 500dps and a shield deimos 500 aswell).
That vaga/cyna thing is just straight math, if we ssume you use cn antimatter and burn at your top speed in a straight line and they also follow in a straght line while you web them off at 13km (would still work with both ships sitting still btw) you do 700ish dps with 13k ehp, a vaga does 580dps with 30k ehp, guess who wins! (and due to their tracking there is no way for you to fly to reduce that damage).
And yes kiting works with 1200m/s base mwd speed, of course depending what you take on (i.e no you obviously cant kite a ceptor gang with that), its quite hard to do it solo at such low speeds but in a gang it works just fine. You dont have to be super fast you just have to be faster than their main dps (i.e bcs, which usually are around 1km/s). If you throw in snakes/links the 1200m/s ship suddenly flys 2km/s. The problem with more speed (unless you are in a oversized ab ship were the rules are a bit different as then speed=tank) is that once you are faster than their main dps much more speed isnt helping you much you still wont be much faster than frigates! |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
19
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 08:24:00 -
[113] - Quote
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:Liang why do you always have to ruin every discussion thread with your irrelevant epeen bullcrap? This is going nowhere.
Yes please stop with the i tanked this i did that nonsense, its quite annoying. I once took a 10mn hookbill (with a 10mn slicer) and fought a 40man fleet and won and the next time they brought 3 rapiers a falcon and 4 blackbirds to kill me. Does it prove anything or does it provide anything usefull to the discussion or does it indicate that 10mn hookbils are awesome and are a better way of fitting them compared to a mwd or a normal ab? No of course not.
And neither does you i killed this and i tanked that! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2383
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 19:49:00 -
[114] - Quote
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:Liang why do you always have to ruin every discussion thread with your irrelevant epeen bullcrap? This is going nowhere.
It was never my intention to bring up the 100mn Talos fits or any of the shenanigans that I've been up to in it. If you go back and read the thread again, I've only responded to complete and total misunderstandings of the way the ship works. Instead, my base assertion is that the provided "nano" Talos fit is a bad fit and is not nano. I further add that claiming fits like that "obsolete the Vagabond" is utter hogwash and the Vaga and Cynabal should never even be brought up in a discussion where actual nano isn't an important feature in the discussion!
Basically, this is the argument being put forward by the terribads in Tuskers: - The Talos obsoletes the Vagabond at kite tanking because it goes faster than 1200 m/s and has better DPS at range. - The Talos obsoletes the Vagabond at nanoing because it goes faster than 1600 m/s and has better DPS at range.
Amusingly, the Megathron also obsoletes the Vagabond at kite tanking because it goes faster than 1200 m/s and has better DPS at range. It also obsoletes the Talos, apparently.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2383
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 20:06:00 -
[115] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Yes a 100mn should (if it isnt fit with missiles) be able to track well, im not saying that your 100mn talos is a bad 100mn talos, im saying its not as good in most situations as a 10mn talos (and that they are bad in general). And yes the reduced sig is nice vs missiles but you still arent a tiny ship even with an ab so medium turrets will still track you fine (especially as you cant orbit at 500 you will be a fair bit off all the time).
Actually you did contend it was a bad fit and you've consistently misunderstood the amount of damage mitigation the fit has. You keep saying that medium turrets track it fine, but the truth is that they don't. I even cited a specific example of be getting literally primaried at 20km by an entire enemy BC fleet. I've got a lot of practical experience in this fit and you've done nothing but make completely wrong assertions about how it flies and how it works. For instance, that it doesn't mitigate damage vs medium guns. You don't understand it - and that's fine. But do try not to tell me about how it works, eh?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 20:27:00 -
[116] - Quote
You simply are terrible, dont bring up stuff that doesnt matter!
Medium turrets track you just fine (try it with a corp m8 if you dont believe me), 1600m/s is more than fast enough for a kiting ship for pretty much everything but frigates (and even they can be killed), this is and has been documented in tons of videos.
And seriosuly get of your arrogant postion i know perfectly well how to fly a oversized ab ship (probably better than you) and you dont have to explain any of this stuff to any of us!
What i am trying to say is that if you try to kill someone in your talos which isnt a battleship or a frigate the 10mn talos is simply better due to better range control (yes your ship is faster and has a web. but due to your agility you cant try to match transversal).
Also the vaga is not a nano ship! (at least not in the conventional form, nano= tanks via speed and range, the vaga tanks only by range in the medern form nano=kititng so theres no speed difference in the two).
If you dont think that the talos (or tier3s in general) obsolete the vaga why is it that pretty much every small scale kiting gang prefers them over the vagabond? (and why is it that most people still prefer the 10mn talos over the 100mn)
Also your example is worthless (as is tbh your entire argumentation, it only bases on "im so l33t" "my epeen is so big" "look what i did" ).
And again its pretty clear that you arent very good at this game (as is proven in your videos/posts) and the only reason i havnt atacked your corp for having you yet, is because we have some ex heretics! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2384
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 20:59:00 -
[117] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:You simply are terrible, dont bring up stuff that doesnt matter!
Medium turrets track you just fine (try it with a corp m8 if you dont believe me), 1600m/s is more than fast enough for a kiting ship for pretty much everything but frigates (and even they can be killed), this is and has been documented in tons of videos. And seriosuly get of your arrogant postion i know perfectly well how to fly a oversized ab ship (probably better than you) and you dont have to explain any of this stuff to any of us!
I obviously have to explain it to you because you're a terrible baddie that keeps making consistently wrong statements. "If you can hit them, they can hit you". "Medium guns track it just fine". "It takes forever to get up to speed". Look, I get that you really want to refocus the conversation around 100mn Talos fits because you feel they're weaker than your garbage 10mn fit, but that really only works if they are weaker.
And the funny thing is that sometimes a 100mn Talos fit is weaker than a 10mn fit. You're right - it makes trade offs. It trades raw EFT damage for applied in game damage. It trades raw EFT tank and agility for actual in game damage mitigation, scram immunity, and range control. But there's a few times when you're actually able to bring raw EFT damage to bear - and in those cases the 10mn EFT damage EFT tank fit works better. But those aren't the kinds of situations that would typically have ever involved Vagabonds.
Quote: Also the vaga is not a nano ship! (at least not in the conventional form, nano= tanks via speed and range, the vaga tanks only by range in the medern form nano=kititng so theres no speed difference in the two).
I'm not sure that your redefinition of the term nano holds much water. The Vaga has always been the flagship "nano ship", and it never "speed tanked" as you are using the term. It's always used speed to stay at range and kite tanked. Maybe this is where you're going wrong, because there's very few actual nano ships by your definition - maybe a few frigs, the Ishtar, and 100mn Tengus?
Quote: If you dont think that the talos (or tier3s in general) obsolete the vaga why is it that pretty much every small scale kiting gang prefers them over the vagabond? (and why is it that most people still prefer the 10mn talos over the 100mn)
The reason that the Talos (and Tier 3s in general) don't obsolete the Vaga is because you aren't using it like a Vaga was ever used or meant to be used. The bar you've set for "obsoleting the Vaga" is so low that Battleships easily cross it, for crying out loud. Maybe you mean to say that the role the Vaga fulfills has gotten less important over time - and to a point that's certainly true.
But really, I think the primary culprit there isn't the Talos or Tier 3s, but rampant 50% mobility bonuses given out by gang boosters. The ability to easily get up into the 2.5-3km/s range would be a lot more valuable if pretty much every ship in the game couldn't be pushed there.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 21:36:00 -
[118] - Quote
The vaga is/was a ship that is designed around speed and projecting damage at range, meaing you stay at range and kill off ships that burn after you . Frigates are generally faster than you but the rest isnt so you can control the range (same in fleet situation only that then frigates pose no danger to you). The problem with the talos is that it speed while it isnt great is fast enough to outrun most general fleet dps, and the ones it cant outrun it can outdps/tank (more so if you add in links/snakes), what is supposed to be the tradeoff is its tracking, battleship sized guns have a very big sig and in general bad tracking, the problem is that due to how the tracking formula works this doesnt matter anymore once the transversal is low enough (which it will be if they try to bun after you).
But please enlighten me and tell me what the vagas role is and why a talos cant fulfill it!
(also yes back in the nano/ages the vaga tanked via speed and yes by my definition the 100mn tengus and a few frigs are the only true nanoships left)
Btw you can kite in battleships, (and not just the machariel, you can kite in a pest or even a vindicator or a golem and yes a kiting vindicator is way better than the talos/vaga but it also costs way more) the problem is their agility and the fact that they take forever to lock stuff and that they are so big!
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Petrified
At River's Edge TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.12.15 21:49:00 -
[119] - Quote
Hmmm... "X outperforms Y, nerf it!" Kinda like: "His stuff is better than my stuff, take it away so I can feel good about myself again."
Love these threads. So Juvenile.
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 21:54:00 -
[120] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Hmmm... "X outperforms Y, nerf it!" Kinda like: "His stuff is better than my stuff, take it away so I can feel good about myself again."
Love these threads. So Juvenile.
The problem is (even tho some bads refuse to acknowledge it) is that the tier3s obsolete the vaga/cyna for half the price! They do exactky the same but they are better at it! |
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