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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Brooks Puuntai
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
891
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Posted - 2012.12.08 11:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why would you willingly place a bounty on someones head without the option of some form of anonymity, especially in a universe where aggression is the norm?
Its like walking up to a guy with a gun, and telling him that you just hired someone to come and shoot him.
There should be ways to do anonymous bounties, as well as a way for bounties players to "cheat" the system to find out who they are. Relaying on a player ran anonymous bounty system, is a crap idea for those who might suggest it.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5394
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Posted - 2012.12.08 11:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Why would you willingly place a bounty on someones head without the option of some form of anonymity, especially in a universe where aggression is the norm?
Its like walking up to a guy with a gun, and telling him that you just hired someone to come and shoot him.
There should be ways to do anonymous bounties, as well as a way for bounties players to "cheat" the system to find out who they are. Relaying on a player ran anonymous bounty system, is a crap idea for those who might suggest it.
There are players already offering an anonymous bounty service.
And it's not a "crap" idea. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
137
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Posted - 2012.12.08 11:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
I sort of have to agree on this point to be honest.
The same goes for killmails. Why should the target know that the killmail he generated by attacking someone else has been sold and more importantly to whom it has been sold?
Consequences. I really wonder what happened to that word.
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ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3265
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Posted - 2012.12.08 11:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:I sort of have to agree on this point to be honest.
The same goes for killmails. Why should the target know that the killmail he generated by attacking someone else has been sold and more importantly to whom it has been sold?
Consequences. I really wonder what happened to that word.
It could be argued that the consequence of placing a bounty on someone is that they are aware of who placed the bounty. ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Brooks Puuntai
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
891
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Posted - 2012.12.08 11:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
And it's not a "crap" idea.
Relaying on player ran programs to compensate for a design oversight, is always a bad idea. Kind of why they needed to code the bounty system in the first place.
As for consequences sure, that's why there should be a option for people to find the names at a cost.
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Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
137
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Posted - 2012.12.08 11:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
ISD TYPE40 wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:I sort of have to agree on this point to be honest.
The same goes for killmails. Why should the target know that the killmail he generated by attacking someone else has been sold and more importantly to whom it has been sold?
Consequences. I really wonder what happened to that word.
It could be argued that the consequence of placing a bounty on someone is that they are aware of who placed the bounty.
Yes, but the thing is, if you are found out by whatever means then the same could happen to you, right? Right now people are just putting bounties for fun and as a means to play with a new toy, but later on people should start think a bit about "Why did I get the bounty and who could the culprit be?"
At the very least have the best of both worlds and let anonymous bounty placements become an isk sink - say you have to pay 2x or even up to 5x in addition if you want to place an anonymous bounty. So for a 100k bounty you'd pay 500k. That way the anonymous placer would also have to think about the economical consequences. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
3091
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Posted - 2012.12.08 11:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Malcanis wrote:
And it's not a "crap" idea.
Relaying on player ran programs to compensate for a design oversight, is always a bad idea. Kind of why they needed to code the bounty system in the first place. As for consequences sure, that's why there should be a option for people to find the names at a cost.
Replacing player interaction with a game mechanic could just as easily be seen as a bad idea. The bottom line is, that the money to pay the bounty has to come from someones account, so it's only natural that info is easily available to everyone. If you want to hide it, you can use an intermediary to put up the bounty. What you need to explain is why CCP should replace those intermediaries with a game mechanic. |
Mikhem
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2012.12.08 11:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Why would you willingly place a bounty on someones head without the option of some form of anonymity, especially in a universe where aggression is the norm?
Its like walking up to a guy with a gun, and telling him that you just hired someone to come and shoot him.
There should be ways to do anonymous bounties, as well as a way for bounties players to "cheat" the system to find out who they are. Relaying on a player ran anonymous bounty system, is a crap idea for those who might suggest it.
Happy news. There is a way to make bounty "anonymous". Create alt character, move money from main char to alt char and put bounty with alt char. Noone knows who this alt char is.
Mikhem |
YuuKnow
Inner 5phere
476
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
They're called alts.
yk |
Brooks Puuntai
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
891
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Replacing player interaction with a game mechanic could just as easily be seen as a bad idea. The bottom line is, that the money to pay the bounty has to come from someones account, so it's only natural that info is easily available to everyone. If you want to hide it, you can use an intermediary to put up the bounty. What you need to explain is why CCP should replace those intermediaries with a game mechanic.
Coding the bounty system in the first place was to sidestepped player interaction. So what makes you think favoring player interaction over game mechanic will work this time around. I don't see how its "natural" about paying Concord(I'm guessing) a sum of money to kill someone be released to the public.
Mikhem wrote: Happy news. There is a way to make bounty "anonymous". Create alt character, move money from main char to alt char and put bounty with alt char. Noone knows who this alt char is.
Mikhem
More reason to add it in. The use of throw away alts will make any outside player interaction redundant. |
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Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
137
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Any suggestion that involves alts is the worst kind of suggestion.
Just saying. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
417
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
But i want people i put bounty on to know i did it ..... |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
304
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Malcanis wrote:
And it's not a "crap" idea.
Relaying on player ran programs to compensate for a design oversight, is always a bad idea. Kind of why they needed to code the bounty system in the first place. As for consequences sure, that's why there should be a option for people to find the names at a cost. Edit: Totally thought Type40s post was to lock it.
So... player-generated content = crap idea?
If you want hand-holding, WoW is that way ==>> You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5395
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Malcanis wrote:
And it's not a "crap" idea.
Relaying on player ran programs to compensate for a design oversight, is always a bad idea. .
No it isn't.
Wow, this game of making unsupported assertions is awesome. Why waste time on supporting data and arguments!
Your turn
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10623
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Malcanis wrote:And it's not a "crap" idea. Relaying on player ran programs to compensate for a design oversight, is always a bad idea. Providing players with tools with which they can create services for each other is always a good idea.
This design puts it into the players' hands rather than make it an NPC service. Thus, it is pretty much the exact opposite of crap.
Quote:Its like walking up to a guy with a gun, and telling him that you just hired someone to come and shoot him. Yes. The system allows you to do that and have your nemesis know, without any doubt, that you are out for his hide. The system also allows you to not do that and let him live in uncertainty. Oh my what a crap system, that gives us such options.
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Any suggestion that involves alts is the worst kind of suggestion. As luck would have it, no alts are needed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5395
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
"CCP your new bounty system defies logic! Why would anyone want to place a bounty on someone and not have them know why they're bountied? How can we deter attacks without the perp knowing who he should avoid messing with in future?
And before anyone says why don't you just send him a mail, this is a crap idea. The mechanics should just support this, kind of like why we have a bounty system in the first place" MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Dasola
Rookie Empire Citizens Rookie Empire
80
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Why would you willingly place a bounty on someones head without the option of some form of anonymity, especially in a universe where aggression is the norm?
Its like walking up to a guy with a gun, and telling him that you just hired someone to come and shoot him.
There should be ways to do anonymous bounties, as well as a way for bounties players to "cheat" the system to find out who they are. Relaying on a player ran anonymous bounty system, is a crap idea for those who might suggest it.
Some do it for hatemails.
Some do it becouse they can.
Some offer proxy services to hide identity ofperson that wants to place bounty.
Its whole new business....
If i would be a ccp i woulkd make some quick changes: Personal bounty be placeble only on person that you have kill right, or has bad security status Corporate/alliance bounties, free for all to place...
And why would i want to hide that i have something against you whne im wiling to place sizable bounty on your head? [Insert something funny or smart here] |
Kainotomiu Ronuken
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
232
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Yes, but the thing is, if you are found out by whatever means then the same could happen to you, right? Right now people are just putting bounties for fun and as a means to play with a new toy, but later on people should start think a bit about "Why did I get the bounty and who could the culprit be?"
At the very least have the best of both worlds and let anonymous bounty placements become an isk sink - say you have to pay 2x or even up to 5x in addition if you want to place an anonymous bounty. So for a 100k bounty you'd pay 500k. That way the anonymous placer would also have to think about the economical consequences. Why should bounties be anonymous though?
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Relaying on player ran programs to compensate for a design oversight, is always a bad idea. EVE is about players creating the stuff themselves. As far as I'm concerned, giving players the bare tools and then relying on them to create everything is the best idea CCP could have.
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ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3268
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Replacing player interaction with a game mechanic could just as easily be seen as a bad idea. The bottom line is, that the money to pay the bounty has to come from someones account, so it's only natural that info is easily available to everyone. If you want to hide it, you can use an intermediary to put up the bounty. What you need to explain is why CCP should replace those intermediaries with a game mechanic.
Coding the bounty system in the first place was to sidestepped player interaction. So what makes you think favoring player interaction over game mechanic will work this time around. I don't see how its "natural" for information about paying Concord(I'm guessing) a sum of money to be a broker for the killing of someone be made public. Mikhem wrote: Happy news. There is a way to make bounty "anonymous". Create alt character, move money from main char to alt char and put bounty with alt char. Noone knows who this alt char is.
Mikhem
More reason to add it in. The use of throw away alts will make any outside player interaction redundant.
As was detailed and clarified in this Dev Blog, the original Bounty System was broken and in need of updating. The new system does not replace any player generated content, it merely formalises it in a functional way.
As with most things in EVE, actions have their consequences. If you bad post on here, make enemies in-game through your actions, or simply find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time, the new bounty system provides other players with a regulated means to exact retribution. As an added bonus, posting a bounty on someone also has its consequence; that being that the player on whom you place a bounty knows who did it and can counter with either an attack of their own, or by placing a bounty on your head.
EVE is after all a cold, harsh place. ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Brooks Puuntai
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
891
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:"CCP your new bounty system defies logic! Why would anyone want to place a bounty on someone and not have them know why they're bountied? How can we deter attacks without the perp knowing who he should avoid messing with in future?
And before anyone says why don't you just send him a mail, this is a crap idea. The mechanics should just support this, kind of like why we have a bounty system in the first place"
Your better then that Malcanis.
You and Tippia are defending player interaction over game mechanic, yet not realizing the argument is over a game mechanic that was created because of failed player interaction. Same goes for people wanting a coded stock exchange, or every player ran Eve bank failing.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10624
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Posted - 2012.12.08 12:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:You and Tippia are defending player interaction over game mechanic, yet not realizing the argument is over a game mechanic that was created because of failed player interaction. No, we realise that. What you're not getting is that there is a difference in interaction and mechanics.
The bounty system is there because there needs to be some kind of bridge over the vast yawning chasm of mistrust that (rightfully) exists in EVE. Yes, I could give you 50M ISK to go off some guy, but what are my guarantees? How do I verify it? How do you verify it? How do we agree on the value of the kill? etc. etc. etc.
The bounty mechanics simply patch that gap: the system ensures that I pay the money I claim I want to pay; the system ensures that you get the money you're owed; the system ensures that you don't get it until you've actually earned it. It ensures that any bounty hunting can be done at all in this environment of mistrust.
What we're talking about here is something completely different. This is a convenience service where the gap is minimal and where the verification is dead simple (largely due to the cornerstone laid down by the bounty mechanics). I just have to trust that if I give your anonymising service the money, you will indeed use that money on a bounty (minus commission, of course) and I can immediately use the bounty UI to verify that this has happened. Thus, the foundation of mechanical assurance for all parties involved open up for a player-run service industry where the assurances need not be that great because there are fewer things that can go wrong (legitimately or through scams).
There is absolutely no need for the bounty system to provide anonymisation GÇö we can do that on our own. There is a need for the bounty system to ensure that the right amounts of cash are handed over at the right instances for the right reason, because there's pretty much no way we can ensure that ourselves. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
204
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Posted - 2012.12.08 13:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Any suggestion that involves alts is the worst kind of suggestion.
Just saying. Says who? Alts are in the game, therefore usable... |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
137
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Posted - 2012.12.08 13:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Doc Severide wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:Any suggestion that involves alts is the worst kind of suggestion.
Just saying. Says who? Alts are in the game, therefore usable...
Well, because purposely taking alts into account for any game mechanic is just plain stupid?
Using alts as a means of going incognito or be used as a direct aid (multi-accounts) should be discouraged, not encouraged.
If you cannot figure out why then it is indeed a sad state for EVE in this regard.
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Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
836
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Posted - 2012.12.08 13:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Working as intended.
Want to place an anonymous bounty? Use a third party service. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Brooks Puuntai
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
891
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Posted - 2012.12.08 13:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:You and Tippia are defending player interaction over game mechanic, yet not realizing the argument is over a game mechanic that was created because of failed player interaction. No, we realise that. What you're not getting is that there is a difference in interaction and mechanics. The bounty system is there because there needs to be some kind of bridge over the vast yawning chasm of mistrust that (rightfully) exists in EVE. Yes, I could give you 50M ISK to go off some guy, but what are my guarantees? How do I verify it? How do you verify it? How do we agree on the value of the kill? etc. etc. etc. The bounty mechanics simply patch that gap: the system ensures that I pay the money I claim I want to pay; the system ensures that you get the money you're owed; the system ensures that you don't get it until you've actually earned it. It ensures that any bounty hunting can be done at all in this environment of mistrust. What we're talking about here is something completely different. This is a convenience service where the gap is minimal and where the verification is dead simple (largely due to the cornerstone laid down by the bounty mechanics). I just have to trust that if I give your anonymising service the money, you will indeed use that money on a bounty (minus commission, of course) and I can immediately use the bounty UI to verify that this has happened. Thus, the foundation of mechanical assurance for all parties involved open up for a player-run service industry where the assurances need not be that great because there are fewer things that can go wrong (legitimately or through scams). There is absolutely no need for the bounty system to provide anonymisation GÇö we can do that on our own. There is a need for the bounty system to ensure that the right amounts of cash are handed over at the right instances for the right reason, because there's pretty much no way we can ensure that ourselves.
The whole system is based off of trust when it comes to this issue. The service you would be paying for is animosity yet how are you sure that the information isn't leaked the the attacker aka the service you paid for. You have no way to verify that your identity is kept safe. In a similar way you explained the bounty system. In a game where trust is almost non existent relaying on a system like this that is based off of trust is doomed too fail.
The debate on whether or not being anonymous is needed is a valid one. However personally I see the whole bounty system going back to be unused due to lack of people using it out of fear of retaliation for placing bounties. Especially with the ease in which information is given and the uncertainty of trust when it comes to a 3rd party.
I'm not against creating tools that allow for player generated content, I just don't see this as being one that will last. We will see. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
306
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Posted - 2012.12.08 13:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
The whole system is based off of trust when it comes to this issue. The service you would be paying for is animosity yet how are you sure that the information isn't leaked the the attacker aka the service you paid for. You have no way to verify that your identity is kept safe. In a similar way you explained the bounty system. In a game where trust is almost non existent relaying on a system based off of trust is just another feature of what EVE is at its core.
FYP
You don't get it. Not being able to trust people = EVE. Relying on other people to protect your anonymity is a choice you make.
Look at it from the consequences point of view - you want to put a bounty on someone, the consequence is they know you did it. You want to do it anonymously through a player corp, then the consequence is you have to trust someone. See how it works now? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Ivan Paul Freely
Small Balls and Flying Machines
0
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Posted - 2012.12.08 14:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Why would you willingly place a bounty on someones head without the option of some form of anonymity, especially in a universe where aggression is the norm?
Really, you are scared that people will know you put a bounty on them? Lol. Besides which, you think it matters? The level of stupidity regularly displayed on GD is so high that David Icke would feel at home here. |
Ivan Paul Freely
Small Balls and Flying Machines
0
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Posted - 2012.12.08 14:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:[quote=Doc Severide][quote=Gillia Winddancer] ... If you cannot figure out why then it is indeed a sad state for EVE in this regard.
What kind of argument is that? You can't tell people they're wrong but that they'll have to work out why for themselves and actually expect them to do so. If you think they're wrong YOU should say why, or else prove yourself to be the intellectual inferior we all know you to be. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.12.08 14:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
New bounty system SUCKS, come on CCP this needs fixing ASAP.
in ya forums using reverse psych to get more bounties haha, made you bounty |
K1netic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.12.08 15:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Any suggestion that involves alts is the worst kind of suggestion.
Just saying. except that's exactly what ccp suggested about placing anonymous bounties. If you only have 1 character you're doing it wrong anyways.
New system is awesome. Don't like having a bounty? then get rid of it it's not very hard. |
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