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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
316
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Posted - 2011.10.04 16:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Generally speaking reaching the endgame means you've won. Perhaps in chess GÇö in MMOs, it just means you have finished all the content and now can concentrate on grinding phat lewt (or other similar ePeen tokens)GǪ
GǪthen again, I suppose that, by that definition, EVE most certainly has an end-game, and it begins at, oh, 80k SP or so.
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
149
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Posted - 2011.10.04 16:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Shuddup |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
60
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Posted - 2011.10.04 16:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
lol ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
17
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Posted - 2011.10.04 16:53:00 -
[34] - Quote
I do not think I need to post this due to Tippia, Brooks, and Mendolus, but what the hell.
Hicksimus wrote: The issue is that there are too many super capitals due to a limited number of barriers to getting them.
No.
The real issue is that there are too many in too few hands. If you increase the barrier of entry that will still only help those that already have too many.
At least that is how I see it.
Slade
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
60
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪthen again, I suppose that, by that definition, EVE most certainly has an end-game, and it begins at, oh, 80k SP or so.
good one
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
60
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
Slade Trillgon wrote:I do not think I need to post this due to Tippia, Brooks, and Mendolus, but what the hell. Hicksimus wrote: The issue is that there are too many super capitals due to a limited number of barriers to getting them.
No. The real issue is that there are too many in too few hands. If you increase the barrier of entry that will still only help those that already have too many. At least that is how I see it. Slade
Proof positive. The only issue at heart is that those who already have super capitals have a monopoly on them, regardless of future super capital production or not. No one in the current game could conceivably operate at a startup level, and compete with those who already have full production lines of super capitals going in the first place.
That is exactly why they need balancing, so it is not so top heavy. Things are getting pretty bleak from a linear standpoint, the haves and have nots in EVE null sec are getting more and more prominent, and if the winter expansion does not fix this, I would bet good money that a lot of the have nots will see little reason to remain in null sec as the risk versus reward will not add up. Pay billions per month to rent a single system from a coalition that has a monopoly on the game? Why? There will be no real wars left to fight, so what would renting systems matter anymore? And why would renting be the only viable option left in the game for everyone but coalition level alliances?
MAD at coalition level ensures this trending of stalemate, renting, and monopoly in null sec will only continue until it's inevitable conclusion, and then we will have nothing but boredom to look forward to.
Remove the super capital domination and bring them in line with the REST of the game, does not say anything about whether or not they are still a dominant force in and of themselves, but they should not be the ONLY deciding factor for all player driven sovereignty battles. That is the problem now, they are all that matter in the grand scheme of things, just like Falcons a few years ago in small to medium gang warfare and nano fits for conventional fleet mechanics prior to that.
EVE is not about "fit this, or fly that, or you lose", and CCP has made that clear time and time again over the years, whether it is through a nerf, alteration, or buff to game content and mechanics. ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Cozmik R5
Dock 94
28
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mendolus wrote:EVE is not about "fit this, or fly that, or you lose
Funny that most Corp and Alliance brass seem to think that way...
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. |
Thomas Abernathy
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
Having tested this on the Singularity server just the other day, a well tanked BS can burn out of range and warp off easily from an SC Assault. (Unless they have also stealth nerfed fighters) This was a T2 tanked BS against a Nyx with L5 across the board. So explain to me, how an SC is overpowered when it can't solo a non-noob BS? This is not about SC's being overpowered, it's about CCP providing 0.0 isk faucets to build the kind of massive super cap fleets that have come on scene over the last year or so. Belatedly, they attempted the sanctum nerf, but as usual, it was far too late, and targeted at the wrong people, the players. Alliances that control the the high-end Moons are making so much isk, they couldn't possibly spend it all in game. CCP has known this for some time, yet seem unable to address it.
Until they address the isk faucets, it's a waste to discuss nerfs..
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Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
149
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
Thomas Abernathy wrote:Having tested this on the Singularity server just the other day, a well tanked BS can burn out of range and warp off easily from an SC Assault. (Unless they have also stealth nerfed fighters) This was a T2 tanked BS against a Nyx with L5 across the board. So explain to me, how an SC is overpowered when it can't solo a non-noob BS?
:facepalm: |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
60
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:34:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cozmik R5 wrote:Mendolus wrote:EVE is not about "fit this, or fly that, or you lose Funny that most Corp and Alliance brass seem to think that way...
It's a balancing act, for every time CCP changes a game mechanic to prevent exactly that ^ someone else figures out what the next big thing is and starts plotting how to exploit in every way.
Once super capitals are brought back to par with the rest of the game, something else will take their place.
The key is to control the level of reciprocity between each element of the game. If you can maintain it properly, no one will ever be able to consolidate enough clout to truly win.
The key to an MMO, is perpetual interest in the game and challenging and legitimate competition.
Right now, where is the challenge? If you have a regular standing fleet of a couple hundred super pilots, what is left for you in this game as it concerns player driven sovereignty?
Nothing.
What is left for those who do not have the same luxuries and never will because the moment they try to work towards those goals, they are stamped out?
Nothing.
Everyone loses, no one wins.
This is the future of player driven sovereignty if CCP does not fix it within six months to a year. ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
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Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
10
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
Thomas Abernathy wrote:Having tested this on the Singularity server just the other day, a well tanked BS can burn out of range and warp off easily from an SC Assault. (Unless they have also stealth nerfed fighters) This was a T2 tanked BS against a Nyx with L5 across the board. So explain to me, how an SC is overpowered when it can't solo a non-noob BS?
Anyone who didn't live under a cave the last few years know that an isolated supercap, or even several supercap supported by a subcap fleet, is fine. The problem comes when you have a whole fleet of supercaps, because the insane amount of RR they can do effectively make them invulnerables. There is no counter except an even bigger supercap blob. |
Hicksimus
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
49
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:39:00 -
[42] - Quote
Thomas Abernathy wrote:Having tested this on the Singularity server just the other day, a well tanked BS can burn out of range and warp off easily from an SC Assault. (Unless they have also stealth nerfed fighters) This was a T2 tanked BS against a Nyx with L5 across the board. So explain to me, how an SC is overpowered when it can't solo a non-noob BS? This is not about SC's being overpowered, it's about CCP providing 0.0 isk faucets to build the kind of massive super cap fleets that have come on scene over the last year or so. Belatedly, they attempted the sanctum nerf, but as usual, it was far too late, and targeted at the wrong people, the players. Alliances that control the the high-end Moons are making so much isk, they couldn't possibly spend it all in game. CCP has known this for some time, yet seem unable to address it. Until they address the isk faucets, it's a waste to discuss nerfs..
Somebody who wants to discuss and demonstrates thought beyond the immediate issue. It was starting to look impossible with the number of people telling me I was wrong because they said so and didn't understand my reference to real practices.
Is it just the 0.0 isk faucets though? The industrial system in EvE is incredibly basic and definitely adds to the leverage of the rich players by providing them with access to incredible amounts of cheap manufacturing that often require no maintenance and use infinite inputs. With a system like this you can make every ship in the game equal and if you make 1 ship more powerful industry can produce it in infinite quantities with no retooling costs and no deterioration on facilities or inputs.
The crowd in here that believes in nerfing ships forever doesn't seem to understand that it is not and will never be a solution because the ships are not the problem. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
390
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:44:00 -
[43] - Quote
Slade Trillgon wrote:I do not think I need to post this due to Tippia, Brooks, and Mendolus, but what the hell. Hicksimus wrote: The issue is that there are too many super capitals due to a limited number of barriers to getting them.
No. The real issue is that there are too many in too few hands. If you increase the barrier of entry that will still only help those that already have too many. At least that is how I see it. Slade
Well said.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
61
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:44:00 -
[44] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote: The crowd in here that believes in nerfing ships forever doesn't seem to understand that it is not and will never be a solution because the ships are not the problem.
CCP already buffed super capitals. Now they are scaling back that buff.
Super capitals will still be better off than they were before the buff as someone else already pointed out.
So where exactly are you getting that this is a nerf to begin with?
If anything, they will still have a net gain (read: buff), in the grand scheme of things.
So your argument is ... not exactly very logical. ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
317
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:47:00 -
[45] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:Somebody who wants to discuss and demonstrates thought beyond the immediate issue. What? The guy who doesn't understand what GÇ£overpoweredGÇ¥ entails?
Quote:The crowd in here that believes in nerfing ships forever doesn't seem to understand that it is not and will never be a solution because the ships are not the problem. GǪthen maybe you shouldn't discuss balance, because nerfing most certainly is a solution to that problem, and cost is not a balancing factor. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
75
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
Balance does NOT always involve nerfing. Sometimes balance is achieved through buffing (or at least attempted balance).
See Amarr/Minmatar/SuperCap FOTM eras. |
Hicksimus
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
49
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Posted - 2011.10.04 18:16:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Hicksimus wrote:Somebody who wants to discuss and demonstrates thought beyond the immediate issue. What? The guy who doesn't understand what GǣoverpoweredGǥ entails? Quote:The crowd in here that believes in nerfing ships forever doesn't seem to understand that it is not and will never be a solution because the ships are not the problem. GǪthen maybe you shouldn't discuss balance, because nerfing most certainly is a solution to that problem, and cost is not a balancing factor.
I agree that in the very short term that a nerf works. But how does your system work in the long term. You guys are so quick to use infinite resources against me because you think cost is only resources and isk. So I'll go with your basic thoughts on cost here.....Do you believe that with this infinite resource system that you can achieve balance through nerfs when people will just mass produce and spam the most powerful ship? Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
12
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Posted - 2011.10.04 18:23:00 -
[48] - Quote
Escalation is never ending though, you can never stop boosting and as we found out with missiles there are limitations to the engine and you can hit and it wont still be enough to balance.
You can however nerf things to the point you cant nerf them anymore. Unfourtunately. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
318
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Posted - 2011.10.04 18:28:00 -
[49] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:I agree that in the very short term that a nerf works. But how does your system work in the long term. Just as well as in the short term GÇö perhaps even better.
Quote:You guys are so quick to use infinite resources against me because you think cost is only resources and isk. No, we don't, and still no: cost is not a balancing factor, not even time. Nice attempt at a strawman, thoughGǪ
Quote:Do you believe that with this infinite resource system that you can achieve balance through nerfs when people will just mass produce and spam the most powerful ship? Yes, because GÇ£balanceGÇ¥ means there is no GÇ£most powerful shipGÇ¥. Balance happens when GÇ£the most powerful shipGÇ¥ gets instagibbed when it meets its counter (and and that counter is not another GÇ£most powerful shipGÇ¥). To make that happen, nerfs are of utmost importance. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
61
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Posted - 2011.10.04 18:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
As Tippia noted, there is only the short term, for every balancing act CCP does from one expansion to the next, something else surfaces to take its place.
Players will always exploit whatever ship or mechanic personally allows them the best advantage possible, why wouldn't they, meaning CCP can only fix the most glaring issues in the short term from one expansion to the next, as they have always done.
They will never achieve perfect balance, and most of us do not want the idea of perfect balance that you seem to think we do.
What most of us want is a satisfactory level of reciprocity between ALL ships and game mechanics, i.e. diversity.
It does not matter if Ship A checks Ship B, so long as Ship C checks Ship A and Ship B checks Ship C.
If Ship A can only be countered by another Ship A, then all is lost to marginalization.
Why fly Ship B or C if Ship A is always the best choice? ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
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Hicksimus
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
49
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Posted - 2011.10.04 18:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
To achieve the balance you are talking about is actually harder than an industry rework(just mapping out the ship relationships would be a massive PITA with the large number of ships in EvE).
I'll agree to disagree because honestly neither of our ideas stand a chance with a company that thinks it deserves some sort of award for opening the bridge attributes, hitting backspace, hitting 1 and saving.
Also deleting boot.ini was probably the best nerf they ever did. Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
61
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Posted - 2011.10.04 18:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:To achieve the balance you are talking about is actually harder than an industry rework(just mapping out the ship relationships would be a massive PITA with the large number of ships in EvE). I'll agree to disagree because honestly neither of our ideas stand a chance with a company that thinks it deserves some sort of award for opening the bridge attributes, hitting backspace, hitting 1 and saving.
I agree, that's why ships like the Ferox, Moa, Deimos, and other leftovers from bygone eras of the game now see little real use to any significant degree because getting them all to be equally as viable, even if they each have their strengths and weaknesses is almost impossible given the sheer number of hulls out there.
However, I personally feel the super capital issue is glaring enough that something needs to be done, even if it is as simple as scaling back the buff they have already received.
So I think we have all reached a good consensus, we all know that perfect reciprocity is impossible and will never happen, and that it is never nearly as simple as just bringing a ship in line with the others, but we disagree on whether or not super capitals themselves need work based on game mechanic alone, as opposed to additional considerations for the industrial elements that go into their production.
Sounds like a good place to be, thanks for making your points as clear as possible and weathering our criticisms, debates like this have the potential to go a lot farther in placating player concerns than everyone simply hollering at one another at the top of their lungs, so to speak.
And if I was a bit crass earlier, well I'm sorry, haven't had nearly as much coffee today as I probably should have.
Shame on me for that one. ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
390
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 19:18:00 -
[53] - Quote
One man's nerf is another man's buff. The speed nerf was a considerable buff to missiles in PvP, for instance. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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