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Damo Pendragon
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Posted - 2005.03.23 10:39:00 -
[1]
Moved from EVE General Discussion to Features and Ideas Discussion - Jacques Archambault
While reading digital communists thread on what is wrong with this game, I came across the idea of instajumps and the problems they cause.
Now the problem with insta jumps is: 1) They make you invulnerable 98% of the time. 2) They grossly speed up travel time through all space.
The pros: 1) Allow very speedy travel. 2) Allow users to create specific quick routes or highways.
Basically they may seem the same point but really what it comes down to is that, we want to travel fast all the time, but sometimes we should be allowed to! (i.e. why should you be allowed to zoom through a gate camp?).
My proposal: 1) Remove ALL insta jumps. Gates are not bookmarkable inside a 30 km range. 2) Implement the following system:
a) Empire Space is controlled by the empires, and being advanced and futuristic empires they control traffic in their space. So warp in distances in empire can be reduced to 5km or 7.5km. This allows everyone in empire a decent increase in speed of movement, negating the effects of removing instas. (Has a side benefit of making things fairer for new players and basically making life a lot more interesting! Travelling is bad mmkay!)
b) 0.1 - 0.5: Jump in range set to 10km. (Not really thought of this area, would need some thought).
c) 0.0: Here the jump in range would be set to default at 10km (distance could be debated). BUT this would only be possible if there is no one else at the gate! Otherwise you exit at 15km like normal.
With this system, empire travel is sped up, 0.1 - 0.5 slows down but is more accurate of the way it should be. 0.0 slows significantly if there are other ships about. This means that if you want to move through empire no problem, moving through 0.0 should be affected by the amount of traffic about.
The problems, well needs a lot of checking on logic and working on distances. Could be problems determining if there are ships around gates (possible area for skills?).
Other advantages include that if and when it comes able to control territory these warp in distances could be affected by POS modules? Territory / System ship control module for POS anyone, this reduces warp in distance for alliance friendly ships?
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Hukka
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:08:00 -
[2]
I like it but without instas indys are like moving loot cans and even if you had someone there to 'protect' the indy it wouldnt take much than switch target to indy for sec and blow it to pieces while the guy who 'protects' you cant do anything.
Personally I would like to see something like. Do as you just said and remove instas and reduce traveling time a bit. Also make that each gate have sort of disruptor field making targetting there take like minute and even fofs would have hard time tracking its target inside the field, but that gate targeting disruptor could be countered by having mobile target enchanter that would be like mobile warp disruptors (could be deployed anywhere, but only effect to these who are in war with each others in 0.5+). When players camping gate have that mobile target enchanter then targeting would be normal. Deploying that mobile target enchanter would take anywhere from 10-20 mins and would cost about same as large mobile warp disruptor.
This way players could still make blockages, but wouldn't be able to just escape/log off when they get opposition (well they could but they would lose the mobile target enchanter) and maybe fight near gates would be more interesting and these mobile targeting enchanters would give sort of destroy/defend objective at gates.
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Garalan
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:18:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Damo Pendragon
Now the problem with insta jumps is: 1) They make you invulnerable 98% of the time. 2) They grossly speed up travel time through all space.
Problem ?!? that¦s why insta¦s exist..that¦s not the problem imo
Use these Clicky to counter them.
Face it insta¦s are here for the stay...live with it.
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Garalan Use these Clicky to counter them.
Heh...I was just going to suggest that.
Warp Disruption Fields 4TW!!!
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Garalan
Face it insta¦s are here for the stay...live with it.
Famous last words.
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Antoinette Civari
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:24:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Garalan Problem ?!? that¦s why insta¦s exist..that¦s not the problem imo
Use these Clicky to counter them.
Face it insta¦s are here for the stay...live with it.
If these things work correctly, sure. But they dont. Sometimes ships warp through a bubble, sometimes they drop out of warp 100km out from the gate ...
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PAPA
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:24:00 -
[7]
sigh..... no hope
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Hukka
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:33:00 -
[8]
And you cant anchor these in empire space to counter instas.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: S'Daria
Originally by: Garalan Use these Clicky to counter them.
Heh...I was just going to suggest that.
Warp Disruption Fields 4TW!!!
Instajumps = "free" Bubbles = "money"
Instajumps = "instant" Bubbles = "5m+ anchor/unanchor time"
Instajumps = "no cargo" Bubbles = "200+ cargo"
Instajumps = "Always work" Bubbles = "Start praying"
Instajumps = "Everywhere" Bubbles = "Only in 0.0"
Instajumps = "Everyone" Bubbles = "Skills+Ship+Force"
So yeah, when you can make bubbles in 1 minute, copy them for your friends, anchor them in 0.1 secs, use them in empire, use them with 1 day old alts, make them take 0 cargo and make sure that they work 100% of the time, it'll be Bubbles FTW!
(PS: Not to be confused with the player BuBBLes, who is teh win!) -
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:38:00 -
[10]
Here's another idea - scrap instas and make the accuracy with which you come out of warp dependant on how long you spend aligning/scanning/whatever your destination. If you do an asap warp, you drop out very inaccurately. This would be fine for fast ships like 'ceptors, which are designed to go fast and for which a few km here or there is nothing. But then have the option to engage a more accurate warp mode, involving preparatory scans, refined alignment etc. This involves sitting there before you warp for some amount of time proportional to how accurate (i.e. how close) you want to warp in. This mode would be preferred by slow things like battleships and haulers, where the investment in extra alignment time would be paid back by having to travel less to the gate. Of course, the downside would be that you'd be a sitting duck (with the "warping" module and targetting restrictions) during the alignment process.
This would lead to interceptors etc still being able to move very fast and zip through things. Big fat things like haulers would still have long travel times, but could choose to invest time at a safespot aligning, instead of at the gate getting shot at. Obviously the exact amount of aligning time for a given warp-in accuracy would need much debate. Personally, I'd look for a balancing where a warp-in accuracy that prevents a chance of intercept should take long enough that the ship sitting there should be findable at a safespot. Obviously this would have to be coupled with the shortening of scanner probe scan times.
So you'd get blockade runners trying to get through by doing a quick-warp from their entry gate to a safespot, then aligning an uber-accurate warp attempt to the camped gate, that would drop them within maybe 3km of the gate (so pretty much insta-jump level). But they'd be sitting there trying to align for, say, 5 minutes to get that accurate, if we say a scan now takes 3 minutes. As far as travel time goes, the 5 minute investment would be worth it for the good chance of getting through the camp. From the blockade's point of view, they could either break out the warp bubbles, and completely twart even the most accurate warp attempt. Or have some "hunters" running scans to find the people preparing for an accurate warp. With the target stuck in the warp-alignment phase, it would be far easier for the hunters to ambush the runner (by the time you've broken out of the alignment phase and initiated a fast-warp, a ceptor could have easily got you scrambled).
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Damo Pendragon
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Garalan
Problem ?!? that¦s why insta¦s exist..that¦s not the problem imo
Use these Clicky to counter them.
Face it insta¦s are here for the stay...live with it.
Instas exist as away of getting to popular places quickly and safely! Travelling in this game is so DULL. The fact you get almost immunity with it is a joke. The problem is on a game balance side, why should this which breaks the game mechanics as much as dual MWDs be allowed?
For some players it invalidates, the you can only warp to within 15km of a gate, how can this possibly benefit the game? I use instas, in fact I hate travelling without them. I put forward this idea as a way of speeding up travel in general without breaking the game mechanics, or how it should be played.
If you think I am wrong why is there a 15km warp in range?
Mobile warp disruptors are cack, pure and simple its a rare occasion when they do as they are supposed to!
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Vicarrah
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:41:00 -
[12]
damn, now thats a good idea matthew
me likey lots
Vicarrah Tahiri Protector |
Steven Dynahir
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:52:00 -
[13]
Solution would be that all large collidable objects and jump gates are counted as small mobile warp disruptors when warping. SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR |
Damo Pendragon
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:56:00 -
[14]
I do like Matthew's idea as well! You could set a default value as well, but you need to be careful as there is no point going super accurate if it takes 5 mins. In empire you will just warp and spend 5 mins travelling to the gate?
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Lucre
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Posted - 2005.03.23 12:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Antoinette Civari
Originally by: Garalan Problem ?!? that¦s why insta¦s exist..that¦s not the problem imo
Use these Clicky to counter them.
Face it insta¦s are here for the stay...live with it.
If these things work correctly, sure. But they dont. Sometimes ships warp through a bubble, sometimes they drop out of warp 100km out from the gate ...
Well, maybe it's just me but if the problem is warp disruptors not working properly, then perhaps the solution should involve making them do so rather than nerfing instajumps?
Warp disruptors were (IIRC from dev explanations) introduced precisely to *stop* casual gate camping - and to give campers a (cost) incentive not to run away or log the moment somebody tried to go after them.
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Trak
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Posted - 2005.03.23 12:15:00 -
[16]
Quote: Instajumps = "free" Bubbles = "money"
Instajumps = "instant" Bubbles = "5m+ anchor/unanchor time"
Instajumps = "no cargo" Bubbles = "200+ cargo"
Instajumps = "Always work" Bubbles = "Start praying"
Instajumps = "Everywhere" Bubbles = "Only in 0.0"
Instajumps = "Everyone" Bubbles = "Skills+Ship+Force"
I don't understand your problem here. Travel in empire space should be risk free and I see no reason why it shouldn't be fast. Why not allow someone to warp direct to an object if it doesn't have a bubble?
If someone wants to pirate in empire space then they can try to pirate players at belts or when they aren't travelling.
If a corp or alliance wants to blockade a gate to protect their space in 0.0 then I think they should have to spend time and effort to do so! And it should still be possible for a player to get through it!
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Kleptress
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Posted - 2005.03.23 12:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lucre
Originally by: Antoinette Civari
Originally by: Garalan Problem ?!? that¦s why insta¦s exist..that¦s not the problem imo
Use these Clicky to counter them.
Face it insta¦s are here for the stay...live with it.
If these things work correctly, sure. But they dont. Sometimes ships warp through a bubble, sometimes they drop out of warp 100km out from the gate ...
Well, maybe it's just me but if the problem is warp disruptors not working properly, then perhaps the solution should involve making them do so rather than nerfing instajumps?
Warp disruptors were (IIRC from dev explanations) introduced precisely to *stop* casual gate camping - and to give campers a (cost) incentive not to run away or log the moment somebody tried to go after them.
There is nothing wrong with warp bubbles. People are just too lazy / cheap / stupid to anchor sufficient numbers / sizes of them.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.03.23 12:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Damo Pendragon I do like Matthew's idea as well! You could set a default value as well, but you need to be careful as there is no point going super accurate if it takes 5 mins. In empire you will just warp and spend 5 mins travelling to the gate?
Well, obviously in non-hostile situations you'd do the math based on the ship you're in, and set the default accuracy to what will get you there quickest - I'd expect to find some middle ground with most ships, with inteceptors at one extreme needing no extra alignment, and haulers at the other benefiting from lots of extra alignment because they're just soooo sloooow.
So for the average ship, I'd be looking for a trade-off like:
fast-warp: time to align: 5 seconds, time to gate: 2 mins optimal-warp: Time to align: 30 seconds, time to gate: 1 minute ultra-accurate-warp: Time to align: 5 minutes, time to gate: 5 seconds
So to get instajump-like performance would need a disproportionate investment in alignment time. This means hunters can find you while you're doing it, and will mean players won't just set their default permanently to ultra-accurate mode - it would be so time consuming that they'd only go that far if they were specifically expecting trouble.
This would lead to two different methods of gate camping: dynamic and static. The dynamic camp will be the "pirate ambush" style scenario - the small group setting up shop, ganking a few ships, then moving on before everyone gets wize to it. By moving around like that, it stops pilots anticipating the camp in any one place, so you're likely to catch people unawares on reletively inaccurate warp settings. If you do stay still too long, the locals will ping your location and start using uber-accurate warps to get past you. The static camp would be the sort of thing alliances could put up to defend their territory, with warp bubbles and/or a hunter squad to deal with people trying to go uber-accurate through the camp. This lets pirates have their random gankage, but stops them disrupting one gate for too long.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2005.03.23 12:26:00 -
[19]
Quote:
I don't understand your problem here. Travel in empire space should be risk free and I see no reason why it shouldn't be fast. Why not allow someone to warp direct to an object if it doesn't have a bubble?
If someone wants to pirate in empire space then they can try to pirate players at belts or when they aren't travelling.
If a corp or alliance wants to blockade a gate to protect their space in 0.0 then I think they should have to spend time and effort to do so! And it should still be possible for a player to get through it!
Thats right, you do not understand the problem here, and you do not see why travel shouldn't be so fast. You don't have the slightest clue about Risk and Reward either. -
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Gevronder
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Posted - 2005.03.23 12:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Viceroy
You don't have the slightest clue about Risk and Reward either.
This coming from someone un-willing to risk deploying MWDs but wanting all the reward from doing so. An interceptor pilot who wants to nerf travel times for the whole of Eve.
Biased or what?
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2005.03.23 12:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gevronder
Originally by: Viceroy
You don't have the slightest clue about Risk and Reward either.
This coming from someone un-willing to risk deploying MWDs but wanting all the reward from doing so. An interceptor pilot who wants to nerf travel times for the whole of Eve.
Biased or what?
Your post makes no sense.
I pilot battleships, cruisers and frigates depending on the situation.
I deploy bubbles when I can with my corp.
Think before posting, thanks. -
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Dloan
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Posted - 2005.03.23 13:10:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dloan on 23/03/2005 13:10:18
Originally by: Viceroy
You don't have the slightest clue about Risk and Reward either.
The risk vs reward argument is very well established in threads like this. It's all about getting the other guy to take the risk while you take the reward.
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Kusa
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Posted - 2005.03.23 13:20:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Kusa on 23/03/2005 13:39:59 Removing insta would make this game too hard to play. I am not always able to gather 30 of my friends to help me haul some loot or minerals from 0.0 to empire. So if instas were removed I would have to wait until the camp is gone ,,,,phat chance going thru chokepoints.
This is just a bunch of pirates whining If they manage to whine themselves to an insta free galaxy I will whine until they put it back.
Wanna stop instas? U CAN! Use bubbles. Oh wait that takes time and is risky and costs ISK.
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Gift
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Posted - 2005.03.23 13:42:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Gift on 23/03/2005 13:44:07 1. If you fly a slow ship you should have to go slow. 2. If you are in unfriendly space you should be vulnerable to unfriendlyÆs.
For the last year I have been invading Alliance space using my insta's "in a BS". I have run their gate camps using my insta's. I have jumped through .5's using my insta's (sec status -10). I have taken the time to map out Fountain, outer ring, syndicate, old CFS space, and old curse space & all through empire. This argument is not about personal gain it is about what is best for the game.
Insta's should go.
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Aodha Khan
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Posted - 2005.03.23 13:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Garalan
Originally by: Damo Pendragon
Now the problem with insta jumps is: 1) They make you invulnerable 98% of the time. 2) They grossly speed up travel time through all space.
Problem ?!? that¦s why insta¦s exist..that¦s not the problem imo
Use these Clicky to counter them.
Face it insta¦s are here for the stay...live with it.
Cannot deploy these in empire.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak. |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.03.23 13:55:00 -
[26]
A) Give some love to Mobile Warp Disruptors, and make it easier to deploy them along warp routes (ie. in the middle of nowhere).
B) Remove all instas from within 25km of the gate
C) Change the warp-in positions to: 10km, 25km, 50km, 100km
D) Add a skill/module to decrease the warp-in ranges, so yu can choose to sacrifice something else over closer warp-in points.
E) Make CONCORD/SENTRIES insta-kill in 1.0-0.5 and varying degrees of response times/strength in 0.4-0.1
F) Remove/Decrease sec hits in 0.4-0.1
ex P-TMC
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Damo Pendragon
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Posted - 2005.03.23 13:58:00 -
[27]
For all of you who think bubbles are the answer? A lot of you say, add more bubbles. That adds to the problem, ships appear all over the show, in the bubble one ship, 200 km away next one, on the edge of the grid the one after. So if you dont use bubbles please dont comment, as while great on paper they are crap!
My idea was a suggestion to speed everyone up, and in some ways so is Mathews (which I think there may be a case for combining both)!
Read my posts, travel is DULL! So instas are a necessity (for me). I dont want instas removed because I cant camp a gate. I want them removed as they break the game mechanics.
IF ANYONE OF YOU WHO WANTS INSTAS KEPT CAN TELL ME HOW INSTAS DONT VIOLATE THE 15KM WARP IN RANGE, I WILL GLADLY KEEP QUIET!
Also, no one is saying remove warp to gang mates for an insta jump! That at least requires some effort, is not reproducable every time and bring in an element of chance!
Also it is unfair to some players, why allow some players to jump 10 systems in 5 mins while others take half an hour? Oh but everyone can create instas, well everyone could create Dual MWD ravens back in the CA days. They were still described as breaking game mechanics!
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.03.23 14:01:00 -
[28]
Boring topic.
People from both camps and you will never agree.
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Iam Oni
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Posted - 2005.03.23 14:09:00 -
[29]
Guess this is the thread to post constructive ideas about the current BM system so i will basically copy the same i posted in the ueber-complain-and-mostly-agreed thread.
Change bookmarks to get inaccurate over time if you do not use them.
[e.g. move spot random(1km) every day. readjusted to original coordinats by usage. Not used for 1 week => move spot permanent random(2km). ]
In short that will give you all the advantages you have now but limited to the area you live in. You can break blockades in your home with a good chance. You can set up effective blockades that can only be bypassed if your enemy invests in constant scouting (which needs some brain/isk/time) ...
Think about it.
(clearly absolut coordinates (if ther can be such a thing) have to get inaccurate as the univers is shifting)
Oni
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H0ot
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Posted - 2005.03.23 14:18:00 -
[30]
Insta's are a problem, but I believe they are here to stay. Devs tried getting rid of them with Castor last year but it got scrapped, and they've been silent ever since.
So why not negate the 'insta' problem altogether and allow Bubbles to pull people out of mid-warp? This way, people who use insta's still enjoy faster travel times, and a quick way from A to B with minimum danger from NPC's and lone pirates.
But if a dedicated blockade is setup, even insta-jumps will not save you. You would get pulled out of midwarp, in the middle of nowhere between one gate and the next. It would force players to *think* about avoiding bubbles, by either bringing friends or taking a different route through the system. (other than warpgate -> warpgate)
Only dumb people who fly with their People&Places open, not caring about their surroundings and just hitting bookmarks as they go along would get caught in the net.
Also, since setting up bubbles in the middle of nowhere isn't a threat to sentry guns or gates, it would be possible to do so in Empire space. (0.4 or lower, obviously)
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
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