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marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
9
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Posted - 2012.10.03 09:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
During a recent fleet fight we again saw the use of what has been termed the multi convo exploit among members and it gave rise to the thought to enquire as to whether this was an actual exploit or just clever use of game mechanics to gain an advantage.
After a number of text's were passed back and forth regarding the matter it would appear that CCP are aware of this matter....are not prepared to discuss it in detail with anyone.....pointing at the EULA's contents,.....are not prepared to allow those directly involved in the discussion to mention who it is they are in discussion with what this discussion contained or what the final decision handed down from the petition was.
Instead I was directed to post here so here I am and here is my take on the situation as it now stands.
An Exploit in EVE terms IMO, has always come down to a few simple facts, that a player or players can by misuse of game mechanics gain an unfair advantage over other players in game, be that in combat or market, lets stick to the terms PvP or PvE.
Historically CCP has always acted quickly to resolve these issues and close any loop-hole of this nature firmly, those involved have at times been severely dealt with while at others they have not.
In this particular instance one fleets members targeted another fleets members by sending multiple convo requests, in my own case over 100 were received, so disturbing my clients operation that it became unresponsive leading to the loss of the ship and pod, something I had no knowledge of until my clients operation returned to normal.
This tactic was not confined to one member of the fleet as in turn 18 carriers were first crashed out then destroyed resulting in the loss of the CSAA being defended.
Prior to this unexpected tactic being employed the carriers involved were not only holding there own but were indeed managing to rep the CSAA, the convo thing turned the tables quickly and within a few minutes almost all the fleet had been destroyed.
My question is and remains unanswered to my own satisfaction, is this tactic of using an unrelated section of EVE in such a manner as to render a players client unresponsive or to crash it out and Exploit under the terms of the EULA.
CCP say no, use of the convo mechanics is a normal operation of EVE so not an exploit, however I point you all to the following web page. http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp
And in particular to the following clause included in that web page
You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.
I would say that dumping multiple convo requests on a player could be construed to be covered under these terms of service.
Solution: to included in the convo mechanics timer/counters that auto reject at sever level more than 5 per minute, doing this at client level will still leave that IP address being placed under sever loading even though the reject option has been invoked on that client.
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King Rothgar
Black Watch Guard Gl0rious Bastards
309
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Posted - 2012.10.03 10:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree with you completely. It is an exploit even if CCP doesn't recognize it as such. Deliberating taking actions to crash or lag out another player's client can not be tolerated. It quite literally breaks the game for the player in question. The Troll is trolling. |
ugh zug
76
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Posted - 2012.10.03 10:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
cap convo requests to a character, and from a character to one a minute. problem solved. Want me to shut up?-á Send me ISK and i'll stop giving suggestions to CCP that make sense. Remove content from my post, 15 bil. Remove my content from a thread I have started 30bil. |
Onslaughtor
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
17
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Posted - 2012.10.03 11:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
I would say this is a exploit. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
572
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Posted - 2012.10.03 18:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
This is blatantly an exploit......
Note: it is easily preventable... just turn on auto-reject convo's.
IMO, if CCP's logs back up your claim, all players that convo'd you should receive a 5-day ban, and CCP should should publicly declare this an Exploit. To all the players involved, the "I didn't know it was an exploit" card is NOT an excuse! You have to be a complete imbecile to not realize that abusing convo mechanics to disrupt another player's ability to control their ship is just wrong!!! You deserve the ban! |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
592
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Posted - 2012.10.03 18:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pretending they did not know it was an exploit would be a blatant lie. The intent to cause the affected client to freeze or crash is beyond a reasonable doubt.
The detail of it not being considered an exploit officially recognized as such indicates more going on behind the scenes. Possibly difficulty in controlling or balancing against abuse?
Taking advantage of the situation like that is about as cheap as it gets. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Xolve
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
1123
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Posted - 2012.10.03 21:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: This is blatantly an exploit......
Note: it is easily preventable... just turn on auto-reject convo's.
Cap pilots in question had auto-reject on, as well as no-convo's from unknown players.
System still got bogged down, players still lagged out.
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
575
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Posted - 2012.10.03 23:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: This is blatantly an exploit......
Note: it is easily preventable... just turn on auto-reject convo's.
Cap pilots in question had auto-reject on, as well as no-convo's from unknown players. System still got bogged down, players still lagged out.
This was always a fear of mine when flying in the AT matches, and thought we were protected by turning on the auto-rejects....
A couple of thoughts: 1.) This needs to be moved to the Assembly Hall, so it can be officially brought to CCP by the CSM. 2.) It WILL get support there, and then we can poke, prod, and strongarm the CSM to bring this up to CCP. 3.) If this process fails, and it's not declared an exploit addressed by CCP prior to the Winter Own3D Tournament, it would be terribly inappropriate for some large "hooligan"-type organization to sabotaging a broadcasted match using this technique....
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Cage Man
Evil Guinea Pigs
8
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Posted - 2012.10.04 00:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Easy to fix, change the limit on CSPA charges. Then you can set it to 10bil or something and see how many times you get convo-ed. Not sure if this changes lag, but it will soon stop the requests. |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
330
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Posted - 2012.10.04 00:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's not an exploit because you can do it in real life. It's a form of information warfare. Disrupt and disable enemy communications.
Tell me, if someone is calling you constantly while you are trying to do something in the office or at home, would it disrupt your ability to do that something?
On the other hand, if it's not there already, an option to disable convo's would be nice. Maybe I was actually sleeping in front of my computer and dreamed I posted. Certainly, it's not there now. |
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Astroniomix
Thorn Project
260
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Posted - 2012.10.04 01:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:It's not an exploit because you can do it in real life. It's a form of information warfare. Disrupt and disable enemy communications.
Tell me, if someone is calling you constantly while you are trying to do something in the office or at home, would it disrupt your ability to do that something?
On the other hand, if it's not there already, an option to disable convo's would be nice. I can turn my phone off. Also being called repeatedly does not bog down my computer's processor.
And if the part about several of the victims having autoreject off and it having no/minimal effect, then something needs to be done quickly.
Meanwhile I'm going to see what I can do to get a group together to test this on sisi. |
Wicked Princess
D00M. Northern Coalition.
57
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
So let's see - when DBRB calls for this to be done to DotBros, it's okay? But now it is a MAJOR ISSUE.
How very CFC - whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
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Elo Knight
Origin. Black Legion.
10
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hey man was it your titan we killed in that CSAA you seem kind of ~mad~ |
Quesa
D00M. Northern Coalition.
9
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dear fellow Razor pilot,
When our FC's and other pilots get the same treatment from your own coalition, does that not make this a hypocritical post?
Please reply.
Cordially,
Quesa |
Xolve
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
1134
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:Easy to fix, change the limit on CSPA charges. Then you can set it to 10bil or something and see how many times you get convo-ed. Not sure if this changes lag, but it will soon stop the requests.
Pretty sure it maxes out at 1m ISK. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Archrz
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Razor is ****. |
muhadin
Origin. Black Legion.
125
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: This is blatantly an exploit......
Note: it is easily preventable... just turn on auto-reject convo's.
Cap pilots in question had auto-reject on, as well as no-convo's from unknown players. System still got bogged down, players still lagged out.
You're stupid. If every pilot had auto reject on, things would of gone on as normal.
"How does auto reject work, can someone help me please!?" "GOONS MADE ME DO IT, I'M NOT A HIPOCRITE I PROMISE" Is all i hear from OP.
Whine more please. "Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love" |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
164
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Cage Man wrote:Easy to fix, change the limit on CSPA charges. Then you can set it to 10bil or something and see how many times you get convo-ed. Not sure if this changes lag, but it will soon stop the requests. Pretty sure it maxes out at 1m ISK.
F1F1F1F1F1F1F1F1F1F1F1F1
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1373
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fascinating. Just so happens the other day I was out roaming with my Sabre. I jump in system and warp to a gate which has a sling bubble on it and Hawk on scan. No problem, I was looking for a little action. As I exit warp and land in the bubble, guess what happens.
I get mass convo spammed to hell and back, even though the Hawk and me were the only one in system. My client didn't lag out, but it was non-stop convo spam that kept me from actually fighting the Hawk. All the convo requests were from Goonswarm Federation pilots. Turns out they have a channel with a lot of guys in it. So when they want to convo bomb you, they drag and drop your name in it and then when the timing is right, call for the convo bomb. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14732377
Now granted I was a bit upset by this tactic, but now I simply check the box in the ESC menu that blocks invites for when I PvP. No more problems. So if you want to pursue this path of claiming exploit and things of such nature, be sure to mention how you and your buddies have been doing it the whole time.
I will admit these never ending tears are delicious. Bottom line; don't throw rocks from a glass house.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Dar Saleem
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
29
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Posted - 2012.10.04 03:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
If people were retroactively banned for doing this there would be no goonswarm / CFC
And the carriers weren't lost because of lag, they were lost because capped out by about a 100+ man ahac fleet. They were stupid and were repping from 20-30km from the POS shield
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
576
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Posted - 2012.10.04 03:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Fascinating. Just so happens the other day I was out roaming with my Sabre. I jump in system and warp to a gate which has a sling bubble on it and Hawk on scan. No problem, I was looking for a little action. As I exit warp and land in the bubble, guess what happens. I get mass convo spammed to hell and back, even though the Hawk and me were the only one in system. My client didn't lag out, but it was non-stop convo spam that kept me from actually fighting the Hawk. All the convo requests were from Goonswarm Federation pilots. Turns out they have a channel with a lot of guys in it. So when they want to convo bomb you, they drag and drop your name in it and then when the timing is right, call for the convo bomb. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14732377Now granted I was a bit upset by this tactic, but now I simply check the box in the ESC menu that blocks invites for when I PvP. No more problems. So if you want to pursue this path of claiming exploit and things of such nature, be sure to mention how you and your buddies have been doing it the whole time. I will admit these never ending tears are delicious. Bottom line; don't throw rocks from a glass house.
The tactic is in extremely poor taste, is blatantly an exploit, and even if you can prevent it by turn on auto-reject, people that even attempt to do it should be straight up banned for several days when reported, and longer if they keep the reprehensible behavior!!
It's not a legitimate use of the chat feature, and its not a grey area... this is very black and white, and the only question is can CCP verify these events, and where is the line in the sand to distinguish legit chat attempts from convo bombs....
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
576
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Posted - 2012.10.04 03:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Dar Saleem wrote:If people were retroactively banned for doing this there would be no goonswarm / CFC
And the carriers weren't lost because of lag, they were lost because capped out by about a 100+ man ahac fleet. They were stupid and were repping from 20-30km from the POS shield
I don't care if half of the nullsec player base is banned (for like 2-5 days), Everyone knows this is not a legit tactic, and you don't deserve "protection" just because ccp hasn't declared it an exploit yet.... Our average player is way older than some junior high hillbilly, and CCP shouldn't be treating us like children who don't know better.
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BlueMajere
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
18
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Posted - 2012.10.04 03:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
hi friends |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1375
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Posted - 2012.10.04 04:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dar Saleem wrote:And the carriers weren't lost because of lag, they were lost because capped out by about a 100+ man ahac fleet. They were stupid and were repping from 20-30km from the POS shield This sums it up pretty much. If you look at their fits, they are not cap stable at all. Not even by a long shot. So even though they held reps for the first minute or two, they capped themselves out fast and melted under the pressure of the hacs. Going on about how they lost due to convo bombs is, well... just pathetic really.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
King Rothgar
Black Watch Guard Gl0rious Bastards
310
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Posted - 2012.10.04 04:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
You can turn on autoreject however that also rejects both chat and fleet invites from corp mates, allies and blues. Needless to say that's problematic. If it only blocked neutrals and reds, it wouldn't be an issue. It's an exploit, plain and simple. The Troll is trolling. |
BlueMajere
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
20
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Posted - 2012.10.04 04:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:You can turn on autoreject however that also rejects both chat and fleet invites from corp mates, allies and blues. Needless to say that's problematic. If it only blocked neutrals and reds, it wouldn't be an issue. It's an exploit, plain and simple. it's not problematic, there's a little thing called fleet finder you may or may not be aware of |
Addrake
Origin. Black Legion.
31
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Posted - 2012.10.04 04:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
I really don't see how having auto-reject on is problematic. I've had it on for a while because of convo-bombing from the CFC and not noticed a difference. |
Tomas Marny
Origin. Black Legion.
0
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Posted - 2012.10.04 07:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
I've had autoreject on for ages, don't think it ever affected me in any ways (apart from not having my cap alts convobombed midfight :V) |
Hot-Drop O'Clock
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.10.04 08:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
ITT:
1) Goons don't come to help their pets 2) Pets lose 19 carriers due to bad positioning and capping out 3) CFC feels boo-boo because the enemy found CFC's supa sikrit weapon 4) CFC cries for bans to those who used the CFC secret weapon |
Lilja Consideratio
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.10.04 08:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Hot-Drop O'Clock wrote:ITT:
1) Goons don't come to help their pets 2) Pets lose 19 carriers due to bad positioning and capping out 3) CFC feels boo-boo because the enemy found CFC's supa sikrit weapon 4) CFC cries for bans to those who used the CFC secret weapon
A wild Dotbros appears
Dotbros uses CFC SIKRIT WEAPON
It's super effective! |
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