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Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
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Posted - 2011.04.26 05:22:00 -
[61]
In this thread we fly nano canes that stand still and slug it out with a force twice their size, get jammed and scrammed and killed and blame the ECM for losing...
Learn to fight. Nano canes are for you know...not getting caught by a gang of drakes twice your size.
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Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
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Posted - 2011.04.26 05:24:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Berendas
You must be joking, most of those things don't even come close to countering ECM.
Not getting scouted flying all one race of ships is a good start to not getting rocked by ECM.
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Xzar Fyrarr
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.04.26 05:39:00 -
[63]
"Because.Of.Falcon?"
I lol'd when the said Falcon pilot explained what happened. Information is More than half the battle.
Minus the mission runners I used to kill, the ones that Did fight back, Information was what let me survive, some of the time that is.
Granted in lowsec, you don't get as much information readily available as in highsec, it does not change the fact that Information > You.
Kudos to the Falcon pilot and his fleet.
------------------------------------------------ One Cannot Fully Appreciate Peace Until They Have Experienced True Pain. -------------------------------------------------
- Xzar Fyrarr ; |
Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.26 08:14:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Boyd Edison Fact is, 90% of the "srs pvp" player-base is now flying minmatar on most occasions. This makes jamming a cake-walk. It's fairly easy to assume packing a bunch of racials for matar will get you an advantage over the standard rainbow + multi.
The solution is pretty damned simple: stop unilaterally flying fotm and find ways to work diversity into your gangs. Got a bunch of hurricanes and need logi? Use basilisks instead of scimitars. How about throwing in a few shield-gank harbs/brutix/drake? Or maybe grab some of your own ewar?
This isn't a showcase of ecm imbalance, it's a showcase for the sad sub-cap ship balance that lets cane pilots expect a license for kills.
the solution is to nerf opmatar and boost cald/gall ships --> less fotm matar ships --> less noobs who thinks hurri fleet should beat everything
why most matar pilots have more speed than brain cells?:O
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.26 09:34:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
the solution is to nerf opmatar and boost cald/gall ships --> less fotm matar ships --> less noobs who thinks hurri fleet should beat everything
why most matar pilots have more speed than brain cells?:O
Minmatar is not overpowered. Everything is pretty balanced right now except for gallente hulls and hybrids which are utter trash.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.26 11:06:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 26/04/2011 11:13:51
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Naomi Knight
the solution is to nerf opmatar and boost cald/gall ships --> less fotm matar ships --> less noobs who thinks hurri fleet should beat everything
why most matar pilots have more speed than brain cells?:O
Minmatar is not overpowered. Everything is pretty balanced right now except for gallente hulls and hybrids which are utter trash.
lol sure... :D minmatar is imba i bet you use matar ships too+ maybe drake because we all know that drake is the whole caldari race
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.26 15:09:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
lol sure... :D minmatar is imba i bet you use matar ships too+ maybe drake because we all know that drake is the whole caldari race
Look at my most used ships
I concede the rifter/thrasher is a bit OP in the t1 frigate class, but otherwise... I'll take a shield harbinger over a cane pretty much any day, and a drake above both of them. You'll see I fly amarr/caldari/minmatar, and I think they're all quite well balanced races with different roles.
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Led Zeppelin420
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Posted - 2011.04.26 16:58:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Renarla Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 22:46:14
But, am I seriously the only one who believes that a single ship having the ability to render up to 7 other ships completely and utterly useless the instant a fight starts while completely safe is completely broken?
I think you might be cuz the only way a falcon will have 7 ships perma jammed is if they all frigs and he some how by the grace of god got every racial right. If you really wanna win vs falcons fly gallente i hope any falcon pilot wouldnt have more than 1 gallente raical unless he knew he was specificly goin against gallentes.
If you up against BCs BSs and Cruisers theres no way ur gonna keep 7 ships perma jammed. cruisers maybe.... maybe if u get reallllllllly lucky,, really lucky
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Deverth
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Posted - 2011.04.26 19:21:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Deverth on 26/04/2011 19:23:03 I was in this fight on the losing side flying the Arbi Since I was just TDing at range I got a good view of the fight.
Anyways we didn't lose cause of Ecm bein overpowered or anything like that. We lost for two reasons.
1. Other fleet did a great job 2. Confusion with the GCC and getting sloppy at the end of a drunken Sat. night roam.
Anyways for those wondering the BB and Falcoln were either warping in and out a fair amount of the fight. They did a good job while they were there. Us being sloppy means we got strung out and didn't regroup....as such our ships weren't concentrating fire like they normally would. So where normally it probably would of been an even exchange we didn't end up with a lot of kills and took some losses.
P.S. Also for those wondering we didn't bring a booster with us, they had a nano booster, so the drakes were actually pretty speedy compared to us
Don't worry though the Arbi got away
Can't wait for the next fight
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Django Von Rheinhardt
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Posted - 2011.04.27 14:23:00 -
[70]
If the opposition knows your enitre fleet/gang setup - and he still wants to fight, you back down. They had a bb and a falc, once they showed up it was time to go - staying was a bad call
Being in a nanogang, you had every opportunity to just back off using your speed to pull range, there was really no reason to loose your enitre fleet.
Next time bring your own ecm or a few sniper zealot to harass those annoying falcons - and yes - eccm wont help you here :-/
Glhf
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.27 15:33:00 -
[71]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 27/04/2011 15:34:28 They pretty much knew our fleet composition too. Unless they were total idiots... we burned right past them on the way to the previous fight in Ladistier.
Sometimes you just gotta fight.... and opinions like "they still wanted to fight so you should back down" is pretty ghey tbh. It was a fairly even setup, and opinions like yours lead to a dull game.
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Django Von Rheinhardt
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Posted - 2011.04.27 17:02:00 -
[72]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Mag's So you got owned, because you failed to scout and plan ahead. But instead of learning from it and adapting, you decided to run to the forums spouting made up nonsense and whine about it.
Go you.
I think they're learning. Rule 1. Have a plan to push ECM off field. If no plan, then don't engage. Rule 2. Have a plan to negate logis. If no plan, then don't engage. etc... Rule 3. Study your opponent's fits after a loss and figure out what advantages they had. (ECM was just one of many.)
Win or lose, is was a fun fight (more fun for my side 'cause we won ). I hope you guys adapt and come back for some more pew. You'll get better if you do.
But, good sir, you are absolutely correct - if theres no plan on taking on a falcon, then back down :-)
you wouldnt take on a curse in your assault frig, now would you ?
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.27 18:38:00 -
[73]
You said that you should bail if the other side, knowing your fleet composition, still wants to fight.
That sort of gheyness leads to no good fights at all, only ganks.
If you don't think you have a chance (like when the falcon decloaks), then by all means bail.
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freshspree
Caldari The Executives
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Posted - 2011.04.27 23:06:00 -
[74]
Arty mael at 150kms FTW!
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Django Von Rheinhardt
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Posted - 2011.04.28 08:44:00 -
[75]
Originally by: X Gallentius You said that you should bail if the other side, knowing your fleet composition, still wants to fight.
That sort of gheyness leads to no good fights at all, only ganks.
If you don't think you have a chance (like when the falcon decloaks), then by all means bail.
Ghey.. funny word - I'd say that the bloke(s) who still wants to fight with their whole fleet compromised are inevitable going to play the submissive part of that engagement
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Vile Coyote
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Posted - 2011.04.28 10:59:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Hi OP, I totally sympathise with you. The other day my Ibis gang took on a fleet of AML Caracals. There was clearly nothing we could do, and I say assault missiles and Caracals should be nerfed.
You should have fitted ECM on your Ibisses, it's so OP it would have turned the tides.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.04.28 11:12:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Vile Coyote
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Hi OP, I totally sympathise with you. The other day my Ibis gang took on a fleet of AML Caracals. There was clearly nothing we could do, and I say assault missiles and Caracals should be nerfed.
You should have fitted ECM on your Ibisses, it's so OP it would have turned the tides.
OMFG WTF NO THAT'D MEAN ADAPTING I JUST WANT TO FLY MY TANK AND GANK IBIS BLOB NERF CARACALS. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.28 11:38:00 -
[78]
hey ship Y is overpowered because its good in big gangs
hey ship X is overpowered because its good in small gangs
hey ship Z is overpowered because its good in large gangs
dang.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.04.28 11:56:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Kingwood on 28/04/2011 11:57:14 ECM is the worst thing in Eve from a solo/small-gang Perspective (small-gang being less than 4 people), period.
Nothing in Eve locks you out of a fight so completely but ECM. I'd rather fight 3 Curses than random ship + Falcon, because against those 3 Curses I still have the ability to do something (nevermind how slim my chances are).
ECM is the bane of solo PvP'ers - change max locked targets to 1 or something, tbh.
Also, ECCM is trash.
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Sarina Rhoda
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Posted - 2011.04.28 12:12:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 28/04/2011 12:13:05
Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 28/04/2011 11:57:14 ECM is the worst thing in Eve from a solo/small-gang Perspective (small-gang being less than 4 people), period.
Nothing in Eve locks you out of a fight so completely but ECM. I'd rather fight 3 Curses than random ship + Falcon, because against those 3 Curses I still have the ability to do something (nevermind how slim my chances are).
ECM is the bane of solo PvP'ers - change max locked targets to 1 or something, tbh.
Also, ECCM is trash.
agreed.
IMO ECM is a poor game mechanic. Overpowered or not its just simply not fun. At least when your damped/neuted/webbed you can still participate in the fight. ECM just leaves you sitting there doing nothing while you slowly die. It has ruined solo/small gang pvp
Me and a corp mate had a long talk about it and the only thing we could think off to save solo pvp from ecm was to make it so that ECCM modules give you 1 fixed target.
I.e. if you have a ECCM module fitted you can still lock 1 target while jammed.
buff eccm FTW
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.04.28 13:35:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 28/04/2011 11:57:14 ECM is the worst thing in Eve from a solo/small-gang Perspective (small-gang being less than 4 people), period.
Nothing in Eve locks you out of a fight so completely but ECM. I'd rather fight 3 Curses than random ship + Falcon, because against those 3 Curses I still have the ability to do something (nevermind how slim my chances are).
ECM is the bane of solo PvP'ers - change max locked targets to 1 or something, tbh.
Also, ECCM is trash.
Yeap, this will instantly fix all the broken things in small-scale PvP while still keeping ECM for breaking RR chains in blobs. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.28 13:39:00 -
[82]
imo falcons needs a buff in fleet warfare.
something along the lines of AOE jamming. maybe half the jam strength, but grid wide. If not, arazu and rapiers would be the only recons used in fleets.
Thats what i think anyways.
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Wannabehero
Wayward Ventures
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Posted - 2011.04.28 15:53:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Wannabehero on 28/04/2011 15:56:47
People have been whining about ECM for years
It use to be a lot worse, so CCP reworked the ECM mechanic. Then Damps were omgop, and they were nerfed. Then ECM was back to being the bad guy, so CCP heavily reduced the range (100km is much easier to counter than 200+ km). In the end, people just plain hate anything that debuffs them, end of story.
In truth, the main reason people whine about ECM (and used to about damps too) is feeling absolutely helpless. If a successful jam merely prevented you from activating any projected effects (guns, missiles, remote reps, EWAR and support modules) but didn't break lock, people would be much less angry. End result is nearly the same, but psychologically it is very different. ---
≡√≡ Don't harsh my mellow |
Izo Alabaster
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Posted - 2011.04.28 16:14:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Renarla Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 22:46:14 But, am I seriously the only one who believes that a single ship having the ability to render up to 7 other ships completely and utterly useless the instant a fight starts while completely safe is completely broken?
I completely agree with you. The ECM mechanics are ridiculous. Set up a Falcon with 1 ECCM, 2 Caldari, 1 Gallente, 1 Amarr, 1 Minnie jammer(s), and a sensor booster, and congratulations, you can basically neuter a small gang, all by yourself.
I've debated the math of how ECM works in several other threads over the years, and even in its current, post-nerf state, ECM is still really, really stupid.
With good skills, a Falcon pilot can get a jam strength of 14.77, which is strong enough to keep a non-ECM fitted battleship jammed, or in the process of reclocking targets for >90% of the time, rendering it almost completely useless... And these are supposedly the ships that have the best chance of resisting ECM! And that's using just ONE racial jammer.
With good skills, a Falcon pilot can jam an ECCM equipped battleship and keep it either jammed or in the process of relocking the Falcon about 60% of the time. Even with the supposed counter to ECM, the class of ship with the most resistance to ECM is still completely shut out of the fight more than 1/2 of the time, and there's absolutely nothing he can do about it but disengage or whine on the forums.
It's a really stupid game mechanic that CCP should look into. |
Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.28 16:19:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Wannabehero Edited by: Wannabehero on 28/04/2011 15:57:42
People have been whining about ECM for years
In truth, the main reason people whine about ECM (and used to about damps too) is feeling absolutely helpless. If a successful jam merely prevented you from activating any projected effects (guns, missiles, remote reps, EWAR and support modules) but didn't break lock, people would be much less angry. End result is nearly the same, but psychologically it is very different.
Its really very simple. You get jammed, you warp off and come back. There's probably, but not always, a celestial close by that will allow you to get there and back quicker than just sitting there jammed.
One thing that I can't stress enough is that the Gal FW guys are very, very good at creating a fleet that can beat yours, regardless of ship class or type, and they can do it very quickly. The tactical tempo they can create is extremely difficult to match, especially when you're only 2 jumps from their main system. Had they not had Falcons available, they would have done something else, but the end result would have been the same regardless.
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Cephelange du'Krevviq
Caldari Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command
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Posted - 2011.04.28 16:24:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Izo Alabaster
Originally by: Renarla Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 22:46:14 But, am I seriously the only one who believes that a single ship having the ability to render up to 7 other ships completely and utterly useless the instant a fight starts while completely safe is completely broken?
I completely agree with you. The ECM mechanics are ridiculous. Set up a Falcon with 1 ECCM, 2 Caldari, 1 Gallente, 1 Amarr, 1 Minnie jammer(s), and a sensor booster, and congratulations, you can basically neuter a small gang, all by yourself.
I've debated the math of how ECM works in several other threads over the years, and even in its current, post-nerf state, ECM is still really, really stupid.
With good skills, a Falcon pilot can get a jam strength of 14.77, which is strong enough to keep a non-ECM fitted battleship jammed, or in the process of reclocking targets for >90% of the time, rendering it almost completely useless... And these are supposedly the ships that have the best chance of resisting ECM! And that's using just ONE racial jammer.
With good skills, a Falcon pilot can jam an ECCM equipped battleship and keep it either jammed or in the process of relocking the Falcon about 60% of the time. Even with the supposed counter to ECM, the class of ship with the most resistance to ECM is still completely shut out of the fight more than 1/2 of the time, and there's absolutely nothing he can do about it but disengage or whine on the forums.
It's a really stupid game mechanic that CCP should look into.
What's the skill point investment to fly a Falcon effectively, versus a Minnie BC (which seem to be rather popular). I'm going to guess it takes less time to be effective in a Minnie BC than a Falcon.
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Halion Banjo
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Posted - 2011.04.28 17:35:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Cephelange du'Krevviq What's the skill point investment to fly a Falcon effectively, versus a Minnie BC (which seem to be rather popular). I'm going to guess it takes less time to be effective in a Minnie BC than a Falcon.
His win-button didn't work and he is mad. You can't convince players like this with any sort of logic. You just continue to fly ecm and feed on their tears.
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Ania Hyperthron
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Posted - 2011.04.28 17:40:00 -
[88]
Lol you nabs :D. Every decent gang got eccm you fraking nabs, where are you roaming i will own you alone with my alt MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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Izo Alabaster
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Posted - 2011.04.28 18:33:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 28/04/2011 18:34:19
Originally by: Cephelange du'Krevviq What's the skill point investment to fly a Falcon effectively, versus a Minnie BC (which seem to be rather popular). I'm going to guess it takes less time to be effective in a Minnie BC than a Falcon.
They're about the same. Give or take. If you're the type of person who quibbles over a few extra skillpoints to justify a broken game mechanic, then I hope that works well for you.
I suppose I could whip up a skillplan in EVEmon for you, but I'm not going to. They're about the same. If anything, the Falcon would probably take less time to max out in, since it has less support skills than the T2 guns.
Originally by: Halion Banjo His win-button didn't work and he is mad. You can't convince players like this with any sort of logic. You just continue to fly ecm and feed on their tears.
Pot call the kettle black much? You're coming to a thread and making a completely illogical, fallacious, and baseless statement while simultaneously extolling your own superiority.
--Edit: And you're not even posting with your main. |
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Caldari Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command
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Posted - 2011.04.28 19:36:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Izo Alabaster Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 28/04/2011 18:34:19They're about the same. Give or take. If you're the type of person who quibbles over a few extra skillpoints to justify a broken game mechanic, then I hope that works well for you.
I suppose I could whip up a skillplan in EVEmon for you, but I'm not going to. They're about the same. If anything, the Falcon would probably take less time to max out in, since it has less support skills than the T2 guns.
Actually, my interest/curiosity wasn't trying to defend what some consider to be a "broken game mechanic." I was actually wondering if there was a significant difference in SP investment.
A Minnie BC requires (minimum): Minmatar Frigate IV Minmatar Cruiser III Battlecruiser I (Cyclone) II (Hurricane) Small Projectile Turret III Gunnery III Medium Projectile Turret I Weapon Upgrades I Hull Upgrades I Navigation II (III for MWDs) Electronics III Propulsion Jamming I Afterburner I (AB) Afterburner III (MWD) High speed Maneuvering I Shield Upgrades I Engineering III Tactical Shield Manipulation I
That's for fitting T1 equipment; yes, T2 is generally more desirable, but I'm looking at minimums to fly/fit the ship.
Falcon requirements: Caldari Frigate IV Spaceship Command V Caldari Cruiser V Electronics IV Electronic Upgrades V Signature Analysis V Covert Ops IV Recon Ships I Cloaking IV Electronic Warfare III Afterburner I (AB) Afterburner III (MWD) High Speed Maneuvering I Shield Upgrades I
Again, minimums, not including any of the supporting skills (for either ship).
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