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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 01:30:00 -
[1]
I don't really care about the fuzzy logic CCP uses to justify ownership of wrecks, but ninja salvaging them is theft plain and simple (and should flag the thief). CCP is government of this game, what they say is the law, but that doesn't mean it's what the population likes or accepts. We see this kind of thread all the time because CCP didn't think mechanics surrounding ninja salvaging through very well.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 01:38:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Neoexecutor ninja salvaging them is theft plain and simple (and should flag the thief)
Why?
Why not?
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 01:44:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Neoexecutor Why not?
Doesn't work that way. You made the claim that it's "theft plain and simple". You explain why that's so.
So, again, why?
Ok how about, i created the wreck and it is only logical it should belong to me thus taking it is theft. CCP says it doesn't belong to me, but i don't agree.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 02:03:00 -
[4]
Quote: But you didn't create the salvage.
Yea sorry, thieves got to it first.
Quote: As it happens, the salvage does belong to whomever creates it.
It also happens it's the CCP that passes this absurd law. You choose to conform, i choose to protest.
Quote: And as mentioned numerous times already, you are already being rewarded for the creation of that wreck ù why do you need more?
Well i just happen to enjoy the fruits of my work. Some people are altruistic and i admire them, but i like to reap what i work for.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 02:24:00 -
[5]
Quote: What did they steal?
Wrecks that i created.
Quote: Why is it absurd? They made the effort ù they got the rewards. Why should you get it if you didn't?
It's absurd because you get told that this wreck you created is only partially yours. I made the effort creating the wreck why should they get it?
Quote: But you didn't work for the salvage, did you? If you did, you'd have it.
Oh i was willing to work for it, but somebody stole the wrecks so i couldn't.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 03:01:00 -
[6]
Quote: Do you consider it stealing if someone runs across the finishing line faster than you do?
Since you bring rl analogies to this then i guess everything's fair game. Do you consider somebody taking your paycheck before you could, a race?
Quote: You get compensated for creating the wreck. Why should you also be compensated for work they do? Why should you get the rewards for their effort? And no, you're not told that the wreck is only partially yours ù you're told that the wreck isn't yours. The only wreck that's even remotely "yours" is the one you leave behind after your ship explodesà
Loot and bounty are part of compensation (and to be technical some don't have either so salvage is the only compensation). Why shouldn't salvage be? I shouldn't be compensated for the work they do, i'm saying their work efforts are misplaced, they are working with materials that belong to me. By partially i meant that CCP tells you that loot is yours and the wreck is nobody's till it's claimed. To me that's illogical. Like getting paid for 100 hours of work, only you get paid for 80 and the rest 20 hours worth of money gets raced for by the rest of employees.
Quote: You were willing to, but you didn't because you were too slow. You "couldn't" in the same sense that you can't come first when you're second. If you could, you wouldn't be second ù you'd be first, and you'd have the salvage. It's a race. You lost it. Why should the gold medal be yours?
A race to claim something that isn't yours doesn't make it non theft.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 04:07:00 -
[7]
Quote: Since it's actually my paycheck and I get to dump them over a railing over a busy freeway block the payment, sic the cops at them, and suffer no ill consequencesà no. I wouldn't call that a race. That's not what's happening here, though. What's happening here is that losing a race and claiming that the gold medal is yours for no particular reason (what you're doing) is drastically different from winning the race and then having the medal stolen from you (how the game actually works).
You start loosing me man, your logic is getting fuzzy like that of CCP's. It's really simple. I planted an apple tree, cared for it and it grew. This apple tree is mine. One spring this apple tree gave bunch of apples, and while i was at work somebody came and collected them. I guess they just won a race to the apples that a tree belonging to me gave. Well at least according to your logic. I call it a theft.
You somehow believe that creating a wreck is effortless and thus no ownership should be expected. But really if it wasn't my effort to get standing with an agent to be able to run the mission, buy and fit the ship to run it and actually do the mission and kill the ships then that ninja salvager wouldn't even have anything to salvage.
Quote: Are we talking about NPCs, player ships, or in general? In the first case, salvage is never the compensation; in the second case, none of it is compensation; and in the general case, salvage is the compensation for being a salvager and the source of the wreck is entirely irrelevant.
This whole thread is about ninja salvaging, which mostly takes place in hi-sec mission sites ran by mission runners. And thank you for reminding me what current game mechanics are, i think i mentioned already i don't agree with them.
Quote: Because there are already compensation schemes in place that cover normal kills. Salvage is the compensation for the salvager profession.
In order to be a salvager you need to have wrecks. You can choose to create wrecks yourself or you can work on wrecks other people created. I'm ok with that, but i'm saying there should be repercussions for trying to make a living of an opportunity that others created.
Quote: Why do they belong to you? You haven't done the work required to earn them, after all (viz. scoot up to the wreck and activate the salvager).
Because i shot the ship and created the opportunity for salvage to be had.
Quote: Yes. The loot is yours. The loot is not the wreck. The wreck isn't yours ù it's no-one's. The salvage belongs to whomever creates it. It's like working for 100 hours and getting paid for 100 hours, and then someone else buys the winning lottery ticket at "your" lottery vending place. Again: you get fully compensated for your work. The salvage is not part of that compensation ù it's something extra that you have to do extra work for, and which you have to compete with other players to win.
Oh another friendly reminder of the current game mechanics, thanks!
Quote: So who's stealing from whom since it's a race between two people, neither of which own anything yet?
Lol are you trying to imply that i (mission runner who created the wrecks) am stealing from ninja salvagers if i salvage while i kill ships?
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 06:03:00 -
[8]
Quote: The salvage isn't yours until you've earned it. You earn it by salvaging the wreck. Creating the wreck means you've earned the bounty & loot that comes with the wreck.
Same way you can argue that if i don't take my loot in time it's ok to ninja that too without a flag. Loot isn't mine till i took it into my cargohold. But stealing loot does flag you, while salvaging a wreck doesn't. Running a salvage module on a wreck is as much formality as opening cargo hold of a wreck and pulling the loot into your ship's cargo hold. But no no no, CCP says that this wreck doesn't belong to me, so it must be right. I don't think so.
Quote: No. I believe that the creation of the wreck is already compensated for through the bounty and the loot. I also believe you need to argue the case that you somehow need to be paid more.
Oh i'm sorry i missed the memo that says "don't you dare to desire that salvage from the wrecks you'll be creating". It goes without saying man, i shoot ships down, put effort into it, and i feel entitled to that salvage as long as i am willing to do the actual salvaging. Problem is that, it's hard to do while i'm busy shooting ships and this dude here salvaging with impunity.
Quote: And that effort is already compensated for through the bounty, loot, mission rewards, time bonuses, LP, and standings, with all the benefits they confer. Moreover, none of that effort actually lets you salvage any wrecks. To do so, you have to put different effort into it (and as someone who creates wrecks, this effort is much less than the effort a ninja has to put into it).
I already mentioned few times, i am willing to put effort into salvaging. And since these wrecks are created by me, i feel that someone else salvaging them while i'm still finishing the shooting part is in fact stealing. Stealing in this game is ok and fine with me, but like other forms of stealing this one should too have repercussions (aggression flag).
Quote: Two distinctly different sets of effort. Two distinctly different sets of rewards. Why is this so hard to understand?
If wrecks were created by server like exploration sites are then sure it would all be a fair game.
Quote: Then it's case 1: the salvage isn't part of the compensation.
Well i don't really agree with case 1 so...
Quote: I hope you do realise that this would basically mean that you want to remove the market (which basically means removing EVE altogether), and that your precious salvage will have no value? You are only two years old ù you are undoubtedly doing the exact same thing: you're making a living on the opportunities others have created for you.
I don't call for removing anything. Try take advantage from the opportunities i create as much as you want, just give me countermeasures to be able to deal with you.
Quote: Unfortunately, the whole game is about taking advantage of opportunities that others create. It's built into every last fibre of the game. If you don't want to compete for (or make use of) these opportunities, this is not the game for you.
Well this case is unique, because there is no way to deal with ninja salvager without hurting yourself even more (shooting wrecks).
Quote: Then you should be in the optimal position to take advantage of that opportunity.
No i should have the right to claim the fruits of this opportunity. Since i created it and all. It can be stolen, sure. But should be punishable.
Quote: Oh, and while you're at it, you should also look into the concept of opportunity cost and realise that ninjas actually make you earn more ISKà
Oooh you pulled economy 101 card. Wtf you doing on forums man, you are wasting billions. BILLIONS!
character limit ftl
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 06:47:00 -
[9]
Quote: No. The loot is yours because you've earned it. You earned it by killing the ship in question.
And the right to salvage should be mine for the same reason.
Quote: No. Running a salvage module on a wreck is as much formality as running a weapon module on a ship.
I'm glad we agree that it's merely a formality for owner to deal with.
Quote: Don't be silly. Of course you can desire it. You just have to earn it in order to actually own it. If you didn't desire it, you wouldn't make the effort to earn it, now would you, so it would be rather stupid of them to post that kind of memo.
I think we've been through the earning part already. It's getting redundant.
Quote: And you feeling entitled to it is entirely irrelevant as far as the compensation mechanics for various professions go. I may feel entitled to this nice moon right next to the corp HQ where I could place a POS, but that doesn't mean that the moon must therefore be mine.
Did you put some effort into creating that moon? No? Because you see i created those wrecks, not for Jon Doe to have, but for myself.
Quote: No it's not. Just scoot over there and start salvaging.
Yea sure i'll tell those 40 npc's to put aggro on hold.
Quote: So don't wait. It's hardly the game's fault if you willingly give the competitors a head start.
I wish i could be cool like you and fly a ship that can kill lvl4 mission rats and salvage faster than a ninja in a speedy small salvaging ship at the same time.
Quote: You want there to be ôrepercussions for trying to make a living of an opportunity that others createdö. This would make the market a very harsh place (and it's already really nasty as it is) to the point where it really couldn't be used any moreà
Try not wonder into areas irrelevant to subject at hand. We are discussing ninja salvaging here. Making ninjas flag won't break the market i promise.
Quote: It's not unique in any way. It's standard competition over the same resource ù you see that everywhere in EVE. Of course, you do have ways of dealing with the ninja, so that part isn't really true to begin with.
Competition in this case is rather padded in ninja's favor i'm afraid.
Quote: You already have.
Then if i have the right to it, it's pretty clear that somebody else claiming MY right is a thief.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 07:11:00 -
[10]
Quote: Why?
Because.
Quote: So why is it such a chore for him to do that and actually earn the salvage?
Because
Quote: Yes. It's kind of the key issue, you knowà
I know...
Quote: I put some effort into finding the great spot yes.
I found a rat and killed it, you found a moon and didn't do ****.
Quote: Why would you have to put them on hold?
Because
Quote: Pretty much all of them can.
Why?
Quote: So don't bring up irrelevant points.
Why? You do.
Quote: Not really, no. It's merely a formality to do so, after all, and you have plenty of advantages as it is. It's not the game's fault if you choose to give up those advantages.
Yes, really, yes.
Quote: No. It's just that he has the rights to it as well.
Why?
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 07:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Neoexecutor Because.
Not good enough. Why?
Quote: I found a rat and killed it,
àand got the compensation that comes with this act. Why do you need more?
Quote:
Quote: Pretty much all of them can.
Why?
Because they're built that way.
Quote: Yes, really, yes.
The game isn't responsible for the choices you make.
Quote:
Quote: No. It's just that he has the rights to it as well.
Why?
Because its subject to competition.
WHY?
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 07:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Neoexecutor WHY?
See the CCP Prism X quote earlier in the thread.
Just did. Made as much sense as the last time. Close to none.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 07:37:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Neoexecutor Just did. Made as much sense as the last time. Close to none.
Which part did you have problems understanding?
Oh snap, not my reading comprehension! Now you've done it. I must counter insult. Same part you conformed (like all good sheep do) to.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 07:50:00 -
[14]
Quote: Which isà?
The part where CCP tells us that wrecks don't belong to people that made them.
Quote: And why do you have problems understanding it?
Because it defies logic.
In before "Why does it defy logic?".
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 08:14:00 -
[15]
Quote: In before "Why does it defy logic?". So if you can predict the question, why not simply answer it?
Well if i did you couldn't ask "why" and since that's about all you're doing tonight it would be rude of me to leave you without a comeback.
Quote: Wrecks are there to provide salvagers with something to salvage from. Why should the salvage belong to you, rather to a salvager, without any effort on your behalf?
Wreck wouldn't exist if i didn't create it. If i created the wreck then it's mine to salvage, leave to rot or destroy it. Someone else can salvage it sure, but like any other act of thievery should be labeled as one.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 08:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Marlenus stuff
Man where did you get a horse that high?
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 08:53:00 -
[17]
Quote: Do you know why I keep asking that question? Because you keep not answering it. Why should you get the salvage without any effort on your behalf? Why do you need to be paid more than you already are?
I don't want to salvage effortlessly and i don't want to be paid more. You keep putting words in people's mouth. What i want is that things i create would belong to me.
Quote: So what? The purpose of the wreck is to create something for salvagers to hunt down and salvage. What makes your participation relevant in those proceedings?
I created the wreck, that's what makes my participation relevant. When you manufacture a batch of ships using your own blueprint and your own minerals, do you expect said batch of ships to belong to you? No?
Quote: Wreck wouldn't exist if the miners didn't create the minerals in your ship. Are you saying that the salvage should belong to them? Why are you stealing from the poor miners ù unlike you, they could really need the buff.
I paid for my ship with ISK. As in ownership rights were given to me for an exchange of certain amount of ISK. I don't see ninja salvagers offering me any isk for my wrecks.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 09:04:00 -
[18]
On a side note, our little conversation tonight reminded me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnq7N6X4x84, especially the part where Jesus tries to explain why killing people is wrong.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 09:27:00 -
[19]
Quote: Then you need to stop claiming that they're stealing from you.
Is this some kind of lame threat over the internet. I believe what i believe in and i make claims based on those beliefs.
Quote: But that's just it: what you create already belongs to you. You didn't create the salvage, but you still want to claim it as yours. In other words, you want to get paid more, and you want the salvage to belong to you without any additional effort.
I created the material that makes the salvage. I should be the owner of this material. What i decide to do with it is irrelevant. Are you dense?
Quote: Yes, you created something that exist for salvagers to make use of, much like the ship manufacturer created ships for you to make use of. Why does creating that resource give you any say in how it is used? Should the ship manufacturers have any say in how you use the ships they created, or is it none of their business seeing as how the resource is actually there for you and you're the one who's actually making use of it?
Right because manufacturer just hands out his ships for free right?
Quote: Why should they? The wrecks aren't yours after all
Aaaaaand we're back to CCP SAYS SO AND IT'S THE TRUTH
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 09:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lady Spank I think it's funny you murder endless NPC's and expect to have exclusive rights to their stuff afterwards. Carebears sure are greedy mofos.
I think it's funny you murder endless PC's and expect to have exclusive rights to their stuff afterwards. PVPer's sure are greedy mofos. I think it's funny you manufacture endless trade goods and expect to have exclusive rights to them afterwards. Manufacturer's sure are greedy mofos. I think it's funny you scam endless noobs and expect to have exclusive rights to their stuff afterwards. Scammer's sure are greedy mofos. I think it's funny you colonize endless planet's and expect to have exclusive rights to their products afterwards. PIers sure are greedy mofos. I think it's funny you trade endless trade goods and expect to have exclusive rights to profits afterwards. Traders sure are greedy mofos. I think your face is funny.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 10:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tippia No, it's a simple dichotomy: either you say that they're stealing, in which case you're claiming stuff is yours (without any additional effort on your part) ù it wouldn't be stealing otherwise, after all ù which means your income is suddenly higher than before, or you say that you're not interested in free hand-outs and increased income, in which case no-one is stealing anything because the stuff isn't yours, so they can't steal it from you. The two cannot be combined.
Pretty sure it was a request by you to me to stop making claims about things i believe in. Feel free to continue using long combinations of big words to switch subjects and arguments. I'm getting used to it by now.
Quote: It's entirely possible to cultivate rocks in this game ù this doesn't mean they belong to the minerà
Yeah well see the rock is created by the server for anyone to take, miner came processed the rock into ore and voila ore is his. Much like mission runner processing an npc ship into a wreck.
Quote: Congratulations: yes it is irrelevant what you decide. Well, it's irrelevant so far as how it limits what anyone else can do with said material unless your decision is to salvage it right this minute before they get the chance.
I already said it's fine with me that they salvage it. But pretending like they're claiming some natural resource is not.
Quote: What they decide to do with it is irrelevantà
Yea, what's relevant tho is that those ships do belong to him.
Quote: And that's the terrible truth: it is the truth because CCP says so. And you still need to provide an explanation for why it should be otherwise. Why should you own the wrecks just because you made them spawn? Why should you own the salvage just because you made the wrecks spawn?
Dude i already drew like 5 analogies (in and out of game) on why i think it's wrong, but you seem to skip them.
Quote: Why shouldn't it instead belong to the person who made the effort to actually create the salvage?
Because he's producing salvage from wrecks that should not (IN MY OPINION) belong to him.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 10:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium There is a bit of confusion in this thread. The wreck spawns as a result of your actions, but you don't create it. Hence you have no rights to it that are exclusive, outside of being able to tractor it.
So is mining ore. Ore is the result of your actions, but you don't create it. Anything can be labeled as a result of your actions and not the fruit of your work using this logic.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 10:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Neoexecutor I think it's funny you murder endless PC's and expect to have exclusive rights to their stuff afterwards.
No they don't expect that for the simple reason that they don't have it.
Quote: I think it's funny you manufacture endless trade goods and expect to have exclusive rights to them afterwards.
They expect that because they do in fact have those rights.
Quote: I think it's funny you scam endless noobs and expect to have exclusive rights to their stuff afterwards.
They don't expect that because it's not actually the noob's stuff afterwards ù instead, they expect to have exclusive rights to their own stuff, which they do have.
Quote: I think it's funny you colonize endless planet's and expect to have exclusive rights to their products afterwards.
Again, they expect it because they do have it.
Quote: I think it's funny you trade endless trade goods and expect to have exclusive rights to profits afterwards.
If there are any profits, then they do indeed have the rights to those and the expectation is entirely reasonable.
So you don't find it funny at all that all those activities produce ownership rights, but killing an npc doesn't?
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 10:26:00 -
[24]
Quote: "Pretty sure" doesn't make you right, unfortunately. No it wasn't.
Quote: Then you need to stop claiming that they're stealing from you.
Sorry, but i'm still "pretty sure".
Quote: So you don't know about rock cultivation I take it?
I know they weren't created by other players and when i cultivate them i don't steal.
Quote: Why not? That's what it is, after allà
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_resource "occur naturally" is important part. I think closest that we can get to a natural resource in EvE is something that is spawned by a server. Wrecks are not.
Quote: You mean like how the salvage belongs to those who create it? Viz. the victorious salvager?
No i mean like material that produces salvage belongs to someone who created the material in the first place.
Quote: No, they just don't answer the question: why should it be yours just because you made it spawn? Why should you be handed additional assets without any additional effort?
Yes, just because. Like ore belongs to a miner "just because" he activated miner module on a rock. He created a material to produce minerals, is it ok for anyone to come and and steal this material?
Quote: And guess what: the wrecks don't belong to him.
NO WAI!
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 10:36:00 -
[25]
Quote: Asteroid is to wreck as salvage is to ore.
Except that one is effortlessly created by the server and another one is spawned by the efforts of players.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 11:00:00 -
[26]
You must be a champion of selective quoting. Let's see if i can do it too.
Quote: cleared that up.
No we didn't.
Quote: neither you steal when you drill away at the rocks ... and that's the whole point. ... you made sure something that's worth-while to harvest existed in the game ... automatically make it yours.
Glad we agree.
Quote: Wrecks are most certainly spawned by the server, otherwise they wouldn't show up, now would they?
Well with the powers of persuasion (guns) i told the server to spawn them, so credit is mine.
Quote: àexcept that it's meant to be a free-for-all resource from which salvagers can extract their salvage. So why should it belong to you? And why should the salvage that is extracted from it belong to you?
You keep hiding behind CCP's policies without giving any reasoning yourself why it shouldn't? And no i don't want free salvage. And no i don't want to be paid more for no effort.
Quote: It's not "just because" ù it's the reward structure for shooting lasers at rocks.
So why make wrecks an exception?
Quote: The reward structure for shooting ships does not include the wreck, and most certainly not the salvage (you get bounties and loot instead). So no, it's not the same thing.
So says CCP. For instance slavery for a very long time was legal and justified by governments in many countries. Let me ask, if you were to live in those times, would you be saying slavery is ok, because government allows it?
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 11:06:00 -
[27]
Time to hit the bed, i'll be back to this thread tomorrow if it's still goin.
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