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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
111
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Posted - 2012.09.01 19:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
MetalDev wrote:Yes, they're annoying, yes they're carebears who prey on mission runners, and yes most of them are cowards and won't fight 1v1. These things we know.
But I thought of it like this. If you pop an NPC and the wreck contains loot - they can steal it. Stealing constitutes taking items from a container that do not belong to you. Salvaged components are items. Salvaged components are contained within a wreck. And yet when someone is salvaging your wrecks and not looting them, they don't get any punishment for it. What it comes down to is them using a module to take your items from a container that you created by destroying an enemy. Anywhere else in EVE this is illegal and results in an aggression countdown. Why not with salvaging? Because some Dev somewhere wrote "CONCORD considers wrecks to be communal junk, anyone can have junk"? Seems legit...
And then of course we move on to everyone's favorite - the real reason its an exploit. Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it. 99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.
Or you can give in, just let them have all your loot and salvage. They'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk. You loose. It seems a poorly balanced system where the people making their isk legitimately have absolutely no recourse or defense against having people blatantly steal from them. They want you to try to defend yourself so that they can exploit a game mechanic and have people warp in and kill you, which you would have absolutely no defense against. Balance the system, make it a fair fight.
I hate to tell you this but you are entirely wrong. You can't shoot a salvager, only a thief (or you will get concorded) for a start. The ownership mechanic is in fact broken the other way. Npcers are given an artificial ownership of loot drops. Why do npc wrecks belong to the player that destroys them? They should belong to the faction the npc belonged to and therefore fair game to anyone. This is how it works for player wrecks after all. But ccp have given npcers added protection, you would think it would be enough for them, but no they want ownership of the wrecks as well despite the fact wrecks are always fair game in all forms of eve.
Shooting a thief allows him and only him to fight back, no "buddies" can shoot you. He can come back in a pvp ship but then you don't need to be there when he comes back. Or you could go back in a pvp ship yourself and have a nice fight. Or your entire corp can since your corpmates can all shoot him while his can not do anything to you. Basically everything is in the wreck owners favour. You can choose whether to engage or not. If you do choose to agress you can change into the ship you want first. Your corpmates can help you while his are all limited (they can rep him but take no agressive action). The only way you can be ganked is if you are stupid enough to steal from a flipped can, in which case you get what you deserve. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
111
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Posted - 2012.09.02 01:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thrym Garsk wrote:I got suckered with this the other day, and my thoughts are a bit mixed. I took the bait and shot at the enemy ship that was engaging in the looting activity. Don't let the year old character fool anyone, my actual playtime is less than six months.
On the one hand, shame on the "veterans" that think that this is a novel and fun way to have a game played. A person is doing an NPC portion of the game and is not looking for and probably not even suitably fitted for a fight, and is in a high security place in which they are not planning to engage in such. On the other hand, PvP happens in EVE, though, so there is some measure of accepting that it will occur that a player must recognize and be willing to tolerate. "Fair play" is not an evolved concept in EVE, nor in its community.
This lack of fair play is a fine thing, school of hard knocks and all that rot. The problem lies in the security status aspect. In my case, the person doing this had a sec status in the 3's--no sec hit for a directly pirate like act. After it was all done, I'm left with no kill rights on him, nor the basilisk he warped in as assistance. The orca he warped in didn't even go red(I'm shady on what this was even used for as I don't know enough about it but he appeared to switch fits or craft on me at one point to gain an ECM), frankly I'd have had time to kill that or chase it off if it had.
The fact that I am unlikely to ever see any of these three craft in a non-high sec area, or even outside of a mission space for that matter, means I'll essentially never be able to retalitate.
So to make the story shorter, I think it is fine that a person can go through the trouble to scan down a mission and steal your loot, even if I feel no obligation to think highly of the player. I do not think it is fine that this happens without any mechanism for repurcussion or even mechanism to allow the player base to apply repursions.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
127
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Posted - 2012.09.06 15:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:"ninja salvaging" is specifically intended gameplay and precisely what CCP had in mind when the introduced salvage. Salvage was explictly not intended as part of the mission reward.
So it is the exact opposite of an "exploit".
Really if the missioner takes the salvage its an exploit tbh.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
165
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Posted - 2012.09.14 10:17:00 -
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Jorma Morkkis wrote:Herping yourDerp wrote:you could always come back in a pvp ship and fight too And then their Falcon alt uncloaks at max jamming range...
And gets concorded into the ground if it does anything? If you don't understand the mechanics don't bother poasting. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
165
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Posted - 2012.09.14 11:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Doddy wrote:And gets concorded into the ground if it does anything? If you don't understand the mechanics don't bother poasting. When mission runner shoots at your ship your corp gets rights to attack that mission runner. Nothing will happen to your Falcon alt.
100% wrong, like i say don't poast if you don't understand the mecanics.
If you fire on a thief then he and only he can fire back. His corp cannot make any agressive act without concord intervening. They can support, which is why logistics need to be looked out for. The only way the falcon can jam you is if you fire on it first. They will try to confuse you by getting the falcon flashy (either by supporting the thief in some way like rsb or by also stealing from your can/wreck) but he can do nothing to you until you agress him.
The only way the whole corp is going to be able to shoot you is if you take from thier can. Even then it is fairly simple to flip a can with a noob ship (who cares if they kill it) and then pick it up with another char that they can't touch. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
166
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Posted - 2012.09.14 13:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Who are GÇ£theyGÇ¥ in this sentence? If people choose not to do something about the theft they're being subjected to, then no, that is not a problem. "Ninja", "thief", "nullbear" whatever you want to call him...
What Iwin button do they have? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
166
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Posted - 2012.09.14 13:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Verone wrote:If you don't like someone taking your stuff, be prepared to do something about it. Problem is that they are so risk-averse that if there's more than one character from same corp they don't do it because it's possible that they just can't press that iWin button.
I do it all the time, ppl are far more likely to agress if they think they have help, and its way more fun isolating one dude to kill out of 4 or 5 that can kill you than just ganking one random dude. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
168
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Posted - 2012.09.14 13:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Doddy wrote:What Iwin button do they have? Ever tried to shoot a frigate with BS sized guns?
I don't bother because my light drones kill them in about 20 seconds.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
168
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Posted - 2012.09.14 14:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Doddy wrote:I don't bother because my light drones kill them in about 20 seconds. Even Vengeance? Quite epic drone skills you have there...
People ninja salvage in vengeances? They aren't going to get many fights are they .....
Anyway you miss the point, a frig cannot kill your mission ship, so who cares if you can't kill it either? Assuming the thief actually wants a fight he wants to be in something that can kill you see he will either warp off to get another ship or let you kill his frig (bit dumb to use a vengeance for this) then come back in something else.
If you are engaging in your mission ship you are doing something wrong from the start anyway. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
168
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Posted - 2012.09.14 14:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Doddy wrote:Anyway you miss the point, a frig cannot kill your mission ship, so who cares if you can't kill it either? Assuming the thief actually wants a fight he wants to be in something that can kill you see he will either warp off to get another ship or let you kill his frig (bit dumb to use a vengeance for this) then come back in something else.
Somebody has obviously never heard of: - Orca - safe spot - aligning
Well you have clearly not heard of them either or you would know that if you are aligned you can just warp off when mr bad man swaps ships in the orca.
Not that you even need to worry about orcas in most missions ... |
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
168
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Posted - 2012.09.14 15:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Verone wrote:If you don't like someone taking your stuff, be prepared to do something about it. Problem is that they are so risk-averse that if there's more than one character from same corp they don't do it because it's possible that they just can't press that iWin button. It really is cute how all the masterful super-pew dudes assume that people don't "do something about it" because they're afraid. Quite simply, I don't care. Period. You want it? Rock on. Belly-button lint it more appealing than someone dropping into a mission to try griefing. It has zero effect on my day. But you guys just don't get it. :) I think that's cute.
It could be the guys forum poasting that implies it....
You are right of course the majority of missioners ignore ninjas completely as they couldn't care less.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
169
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Posted - 2012.09.14 15:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Astroniomix wrote:Unless you want to bring an orca into a mission. I don't probably because I'm that mission runner... But if you gankers don't know how to use tools CCP gave you... Well, that's not my problem.
You know Orcas can't go into many missions right? And that even when they can slow boating an orca over tens of kilometres of deadspace between rooms is no-ones idea of time well spent? Or that the target can just warp off when you swap ships anyway if they bothered to align?
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