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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:06:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Othran on 25/03/2011 19:07:21 Ermm he's hugely unconvincing and doesn't even appear to be able to read his own graphs.
His comments about PLEX are nonsense as bot farmers have been stockpiling for ages (evebank for example).
Hopefully Sreegs will sort out the problem cos the guy on now has no clue about anything.
Edit - and I STILL beleive that PLEX was made a regular in-game item to absolve CCP of potential debts but this guy has less clue about economics than the EU.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:13:00 -
[2]
I was about to post about his presentation, but then I saw this. Seriously, his stage presence is... horrible, sorry, but it just is. It's as if he's reciting a preliminary form of a not yet published QEN.
And damn, guy, the insurance thing ? IT DID NEXT TO NOTHING, as could be seen by what started happening immediately after (prices divebombing). The OTHER changes and additions made alongside is what caused the recovery, and you could have just as well not even TOUCHED insurance. Oh, and ONE SINGLE insurance payout adjustment... really ? COME ON !
Rage... Shatnerian... in... intensity. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:13:00 -
[3]
any link to his comments or info about it?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso any link to his comments or info about it?
http://fanfest.eveonline.com/en/stream/free
It's happening *NOW*. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Ordais
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:16:00 -
[5]
oh common, go easy on the guy.
BUT, i think he misinterpreted the skyrocketing on PLEX...wasnt there a speculation-bubble going on on "remap for plex"...he didnt even mention it ;)
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:17:00 -
[6]
I have no idea why the good doc is giving so much grief to his audience, but he sure is doing really great at that.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:17:00 -
[7]
I think the problem is that he simply doesn't understand the game with all its current problems.
The graphs on PI are very very funny. He ought to apply for a job at the ECB - they don't have a clue either.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion RONA Directorate
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Akita T I was about to post about his presentation, but then I saw this. Seriously, his stage presence is... horrible, sorry, but it just is. It's as if he's reciting a preliminary form of a not yet published QEN.
And damn, guy, the insurance thing ? IT DID NEXT TO NOTHING, as could be seen by what started happening immediately after (prices divebombing). The OTHER changes and additions made alongside is what caused the recovery, and you could have just as well not even TOUCHED insurance. Oh, and ONE SINGLE insurance payout adjustment... really ? COME ON !
Rage... Shatnerian... in... intensity.
Akita - not much changed because ccp changed loot tables and nocxium changed. In the past 6 months it has gone from 100 isk per unit to nearly 600 isk per unit. Since insurances is supposed to change with mineral prices this huge change in mineral value kept insurance steady.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:22:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Akita T on 25/03/2011 19:24:59
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk Akita - not much changed because ccp changed loot tables and nocxium changed. In the past 6 months it has gone from 100 isk per unit to nearly 600 isk per unit. Since insurances is supposed to change with mineral prices this huge change in mineral value kept insurance steady.
You don't really have a point.
Insurance payout is supposed to be ROUGHLY at the same level with, or even preferably ever so slightly higher than the market price of a ship. There was a SINGLE insurance payout rebalance, and... the full payout is now LOWER than the market price of ships. The PROBLEMS we used to have back in the day were because 70% of that payout (or, in other words, the net ISK difference) used to be ABOVE the market price of a ship, so it became profitable to buy ships to just blow them up... so the only thing you MUST do is have insurance pay out less than that. Really, that's the only thing you just absolutely have to do. Payouts below market price don't do anybody any good.
...
P.S. Semi-unrelated - well, ok, he had some semi-interesting points more recently now, but still... the first re-impression, meh. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Bane Necran
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:26:00 -
[10]
I prefer a casual stage presence myself. Leave the acting for plays.
Finding a lot of the info interesting, but i'm not quite as obsessed with the economy as some.
Gallente and Minmatar .7 POS placement service. |
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Sebastian Belaqua
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:32:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sebastian Belaqua on 25/03/2011 19:31:55 Wow - he just said CCP would manipulate the PLEX market if it got too "unstable". Terrible Idea.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:39:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Akita T on 25/03/2011 19:39:23
About technetium... LOL !
Paraphrasing very roughly...
"I think it's because technetium is in so many smaller items" "There might not be enough supply, but that is lame" "I don't want to talk about it" "I have no single explanation of why it happened" "We looked at the data and there's nothing unusual going, nobody is stocking it up" "We're still trying to figure it out"
Really ? We, the players, have figured it out A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Christos Hendez
Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:41:00 -
[13]
"i wouldnt say it takes us years to acknowledge it - it takes us years to do something about it"
CCP Economist when asked about tehcnetium and insurance fraud. ----- Russian | English | French
AAA Diplomat WAR.H |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:43:00 -
[14]
Another player just asked about a moon mineral rebalance. "We cannot answer that at this point, but it's an ongoing concern, we'll be looking at it" and similar. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Bek Thyron
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Bek Thyron on 25/03/2011 19:45:13 This guy is somewhat...I just dont like his way to answer every ****ing question with "Aehhhh...i cannot answer that right now/Its not what i am allowed to say/We look closely to it and will take the necessery steps/"
WTF.
(edit) Oh hai Akita you noticed this too, hm? **** **** Please send me mail if you want to sell big piles of corpses. Must be in mint condition. (space-frozen)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:46:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bek Thyron This guy is somewhat...I just dont like his way to answer every ****ing question with "Aehhhh...i cannot answer that right now/Its not what i am allowed to say/We look closely to it and will take the necessery steps/" WTF.
That's because the playerbase is more competent at predicting//estimating the effects of any changes, and they don't want us speculating for even more ludicrous profits than we already have...
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Bek Thyron
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:47:00 -
[17]
OH REALLY WHAT THE HELL.
"How much plexes are actually flowing in the game?" "Its a question i cannot answer directly."
Screw that. **** **** Please send me mail if you want to sell big piles of corpses. Must be in mint condition. (space-frozen)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bek Thyron OH REALLY WHAT THE HELL. "How much plexes are actually flowing in the game?" "Its a question i cannot answer directly." Screw that.
Especially since previously, this data has been made public in devblogs (or was it a QEN) ?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Akita T (or was it a QEN) ?
Speaking of QEN, they are handing them out, where the hell is the link to it!
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Bek Thyron
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Bek Thyron OH REALLY WHAT THE HELL. "How much plexes are actually flowing in the game?" "Its a question i cannot answer directly." Screw that.
Especially since previously, this data has been made public in devblogs (or was it a QEN) ?
I think i had read some devblog about popularity of plexes since they were introduced. But seriously, CCP...ugh. It was NOT a pleasure to watch this guy. **** **** Please send me mail if you want to sell big piles of corpses. Must be in mint condition. (space-frozen)
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sableye
principle of motion
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:52:00 -
[21]
well I enjoyed it.
----------------------------------------- View The North Star! In All Its Glory!! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:53:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Akita T on 25/03/2011 19:53:42
Originally by: Bek Thyron I think i had read some devblog about popularity of plexes since they were introduced.
Think I found it. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=684
Quote: But seriously, CCP...ugh. It was NOT a pleasure to watch this guy.
Eh, watching any economists talk nowadays seldom is :rimshot: _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Bek Thyron
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:55:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 25/03/2011 19:53:42
Originally by: Bek Thyron I think i had read some devblog about popularity of plexes since they were introduced.
Think I found it. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=684
Quote: But seriously, CCP...ugh. It was NOT a pleasure to watch this guy.
Eh, watching any economists talk nowadays seldom is :rimshot:
Touche **** **** Please send me mail if you want to sell big piles of corpses. Must be in mint condition. (space-frozen)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:58:00 -
[24]
Economists - the new lawyers ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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FunzzeR
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:58:00 -
[25]
Another reason why CCP should create an open database of market data, ships used/destroyed data, etc for the economists and statisticians among the playerbase to do their own analysis and bypass the rather useless QEN all together.
Alas that will likely never happen, but I can only dream. PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!!
THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!! |
Dr Geiger
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Posted - 2011.03.25 20:06:00 -
[26]
Most entertaining item I seen all day on stream. I enjoyed his presentation.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.03.25 20:07:00 -
[27]
Ah, not too bad.
At least I learned that Dr. E's major (only?) focus is on the ISK flow in general and not on how much a single item might sell for. I guess his major task is to control inflation and the balance between ISK sources and sinks.
Seemingly it is game development that handles the task with item availability and not Dr. E.
-- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Lorebook - Mysteries of W-space |
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2011.03.25 20:13:00 -
[28]
I hate to say it, but I have to admit to being singularily unimpressed by this talk. I'm well aware that as a representative of what you might call the central bank in EVE he can't just make off-the-cuff predictions or prognosis as that would leave the market influenced and somehow tainted, but the fact remains that in the end of the day, the analysis of too much of the data was at worst fatally flawed or at best shallow. What really got my goat though was the pronouncement that the EVE economy is basically fine, again, apparently blatently ignoring the fact that it, quite fundamentally, is not. The many hand-offs to 'game design' notwithstanding, the approach taken is fundamentally too distant and dismissive. The fact that the market in itself is, on paper no doubt, efficient and reactive, is meaningless if it is efficiently and reactively going down the toilet as we speak. However theoretically repugnant interventionism may be, the situation has, over the past couple of years, degraded to such an extend that any other course of action is simply no longer feasible, and any argument to the contrary nothing less than an excuse. And quite frankly, on a personal level, I'm rather tired of the latter. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist |
Kalle Demos
Amarr Helix Protocol
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Posted - 2011.03.25 20:21:00 -
[29]
I havent seen it but chances are based on comments the guy is nervous or not keen on talking, but thats just based on the situation. .
Im not Bismaru, im better! |
Dr Offensive
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Posted - 2011.03.25 21:59:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 25/03/2011 19:07:21 Ermm he's hugely unconvincing and doesn't even appear to be able to read his own graphs.
Col Gaddafis speeches are hugely unconvincing but at least there's passion, fist thumping passion, in there.
Actually thinking about it, Gaddadi might be looking for a new job soon, I vote Gaddafi for the next CCP economist.
You can vote for him at - http://www.algathafi.org/html-english/index.htm
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Hayaku Codolle
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Posted - 2011.03.25 22:13:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Kalle Demos I havent seen it but chances are based on comments the guy is nervous or not keen on talking, but thats just based on the situation.
Based on what I have seen from other speakers, I noticed that some DEV's mention had way more complex presentations but had to trim down the detailed information.
Stuff like, how many plexes are out there, how many are used and where to go/stay is juicy information for RMT peeps.
Last fanfest he his presentation was much more detailed and interesting, so I guess his information flow got under lock down. And for godsakes, he's an economist... not a evelopedia database.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.03.25 22:30:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Akita T Payouts below market price don't do anybody any good.
Yes it does...
And I have no idea where you got the idea that insurance payouts below market price was in any way not intended or desirable.
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Heathrow
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Posted - 2011.03.25 22:44:00 -
[33]
It would be quite interesting to know exactly why EVE's economy is apparently in dire peril or on the verge of collapse. It's a shame then that all the comments in this thread with those implications fail completely to actually back them up.
But then I'm out of the loop so by all means enlighten me. Why is the sky falling?
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2011.03.25 22:44:00 -
[34]
Damn i couldnt watch it , but considering past achivmnets of the CCP's economist i am sure the presentation sucked.
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Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.03.25 22:48:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Hayaku Codolle
Originally by: Kalle Demos I havent seen it but chances are based on comments the guy is nervous or not keen on talking, but thats just based on the situation.
Based on what I have seen from other speakers, I noticed that some DEV's mention had way more complex presentations but had to trim down the detailed information.
Stuff like, how many plexes are out there, how many are used and where to go/stay is juicy information for RMT peeps.
Last fanfest he his presentation was much more detailed and interesting, so I guess his information flow got under lock down. And for godsakes, he's an economist... not a evelopedia database.
Which is bull. Folks have been collecting market data for estimates since ages, besides the market accumulated data over time gives more than enough data for anything from manipulation to whatever.
Besides, CCP is smart, fearless and transparent, etc.
As an economist who's job it is to run an R&S department and a virtual economy he should have an intrinsic familiarity, understanding, and solid factual knowledge readily available at any given time.
Also, capping plex prices. RMT is going to love that.
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Cailais
Amarr Neo-Tech Solutions
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Posted - 2011.03.26 00:43:00 -
[36]
Economics = pseudo "social" science. None of em have got the foggiest tbh.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.26 01:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Akita T Payouts below market price don't do anybody any good.
Yes it does... And I have no idea where you got the idea that insurance payouts below market price was in any way not intended or desirable.
Insurance payouts at (more or less) market price WERE intended. That was the whole point of insurance from the word go.
The only relevant payout value however is 70% of payout, not 100% of it. It's only bad if 70% of payout is HIGHER than market prices. Or, in other words, it's only bad if the payout is above 142.8% of market price. Ok, ok, if you want to get technical, due to broker fees and sales taxes, it's a lightly different value, or if you also take laziness into account, the value might be reversed... but you get the gist of it
The point is, you only REALLY have a BIG problem when it becomes more convenient/profitable to simply blow ships up instead of selling them on the market. Other than that, the higher the payout, the BETTER.
Higher payouts for T1 ships means the cost of losing and replacing your lost ship is lower (down to just the cost of fittings in case of 70% payout equaling market price of that ship), so people are more likely to engage in more risky PvP combat while flying larger ships (just below capitals ; for capitals, the motivations change, but that story is much more complicated) which means manufacturers have something to do (produce new ships), miners have something to do (mine replacement minerals) and almost everybody's happy (possible exceptions being people that get suicide-ganked and people that try to inflict large amounts of ISK damage to enemies flying non-capital ships). _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Voogru
Gallente Massive Damage
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Posted - 2011.03.26 03:00:00 -
[38]
So CCP's lead economist is no different than all real world economists?
That makes perfect sense.
This was probably his economics teacher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM
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Dani Nardieu
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.26 06:44:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Akita T
LOWER payouts obviously have the opposite effect. People become less likely to want to risk combat, and number of destroyed ships goes down. Out of those that do engage in combat, a non-trivial percentage increasingly prefers to switch to faction/T2/T3 ships instead of using plain vanilla T1, increasing demand for them and sending their prices upwards too, until the increased prices feed back into demand lowering it enough for a new, higher-priced equilibrium. Out of all ship types, T2 ships will suffer the highest price increase, because their maximum possible supply is limited by moongoo availability, while the others can have their supply augmented. This means that moongoo bottlenecks become even more pronounced, and the value of bottleneck mineral moons skyrockets, making the big powerbloc owners tighten their grip even more on them, bringing more and more of their supercap fleet to bear. Oh, and since there's much less demand for basic T1 ships, supercaps would tend to become slightly cheaper, so more of them would get constructed. All in all, lower payouts trigger a more risk-averse behaviour and encourage blobbing.
Obviously, the above are the worst/best case scenarios, but you get the gist of it... you can see it happening on a smaller scale already. So, no, Rakshasa, lower payouts really don't do anybody any good. REALLY.
That's dumb. Lower payout: - discourages suicide ganking - discourages use of MASSIVE COMPLETLY FREE DRAKE AND ALPHA BATTLESHIP FLEETS FOR LITTLE TO NO LOSS IF THEY ALL DIE
Also risk-adverse behaviour and less ships dieing increases prices wait what ? How the hell is there a bigger bottleneck if ships don't die ? Where are all those massive T2 fleets ?
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Hayaishi
Gallente Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2011.03.26 07:50:00 -
[40]
I for one enjoyed his presentation. Would you folks have preferred if he had not done one at all? Or just read out the report like a children's bed time story?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.26 08:04:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/03/2011 08:06:22
Originally by: Dani Nardieu That's dumb. Lower payout: - discourages suicide ganking - discourages use of MASSIVE COMPLETLY FREE DRAKE AND ALPHA BATTLESHIP FLEETS FOR LITTLE TO NO LOSS IF THEY ALL DIE
First off, why in the world would we want to discourage suicide ganking ? If anything, it needs to be heavily encouraged, it doesn't happen nearly often enough. As for the second part - exactly, LESS COMBAT. And we DON'T like that. Besides, it's not like losing a ship even near insurance breakeven would be free... it still costs you in terms of rigs and modules... and we're quite far from that anyway, payouts are BELOW market price, so a whole frigging truckload below insurance breakeven.
Quote: Also risk-adverse behaviour and less ships dieing increases prices wait what ? How the hell is there a bigger bottleneck if ships don't die ?
Can't you bloody read ? In this case, T1 prices HAVE A TENDENCY TO drop, faction/T2/T3 prices HAVE A TENDENCY TO rise. Also, who said ships don't die ? They still die, but in different numbers (less overall) and proportions (whole lot less T1, slightly more faction/T2/T3).
You have several types of people that contribute to the above: * people that USED to fly faction/T2/T3 ships and therefore will STILL fly them even if they go up in price and will just work more to compensate for the increase in price * people that USED to fly T1 ships that will SWITCH to faction/T2/T3 because, hey, if they lose a lot of cash anyway, they might as well fly a better ship * people that USED to fly T1 ships that will QUIT FIGHTING altogether because fighting just became too expensive for them.
Quote: Where are all those massive T2 fleets ?
What massive T2 fleets ? I wasn't talking about noticeably more than what you used to have, just SLIGHTLY more than what you used to have. And we USED to have massive HAC fleets not that long ago. Sniper fleets.
Originally by: Hayaishi I for one enjoyed his presentation. Would you folks have preferred if he had not done one at all? Or just read out the report like a children's bed time story?
Gee, wilkers, sir, you are asking if would I prefer fried marshmallows thrown on the ground or marshmallows thrown on the ground and stomped on ? Or that maybe I prefer no marshmallows at all ? Uh... I don't know... can't I just have normal marshmallows without the mud and stomping ? Please ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Lise Kahel
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Posted - 2011.03.26 10:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Dani Nardieu
- discourages use of MASSIVE COMPLETLY FREE DRAKE AND ALPHA BATTLESHIP FLEETS FOR LITTLE TO NO LOSS IF THEY ALL DIE
Assuming people insure ships. I have never done it, I simply forget.
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Morphisat
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2011.03.26 10:55:00 -
[43]
The presentation was quite interesting I thought, why would an economist an amazing stage presence ?
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Flynn Fetladral
Caldari BlackSite Prophecy
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Posted - 2011.03.26 11:01:00 -
[44]
Yeah I have to say, I found it one of the most interesting of the ones show on the live stream.
Follow Flynn on Twitter |
Hayaishi
Gallente Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2011.03.26 11:18:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 26/03/2011 08:06:22
Originally by: Dani Nardieu That's dumb. Lower payout: - discourages suicide ganking - discourages use of MASSIVE COMPLETLY FREE DRAKE AND ALPHA BATTLESHIP FLEETS FOR LITTLE TO NO LOSS IF THEY ALL DIE
First off, why in the world would we want to discourage suicide ganking ? If anything, it needs to be heavily encouraged, it doesn't happen nearly often enough. As for the second part - exactly, LESS COMBAT. And we DON'T like that. Besides, it's not like losing a ship even near insurance breakeven would be free... it still costs you in terms of rigs and modules... and we're quite far from that anyway, payouts are BELOW market price, so a whole frigging truckload below insurance breakeven.
Quote: Also risk-adverse behaviour and less ships dieing increases prices wait what ? How the hell is there a bigger bottleneck if ships don't die ?
Can't you bloody read ? In this case, T1 prices HAVE A TENDENCY TO drop, faction/T2/T3 prices HAVE A TENDENCY TO rise. Also, who said ships don't die ? They still die, but in different numbers (less overall) and proportions (whole lot less T1, slightly more faction/T2/T3).
You have several types of people that contribute to the above: * people that USED to fly faction/T2/T3 ships and therefore will STILL fly them even if they go up in price and will just work more to compensate for the increase in price * people that USED to fly T1 ships that will SWITCH to faction/T2/T3 because, hey, if they lose a lot of cash anyway, they might as well fly a better ship * people that USED to fly T1 ships that will QUIT FIGHTING altogether because fighting just became too expensive for them.
Quote: Where are all those massive T2 fleets ?
What massive T2 fleets ? I wasn't talking about noticeably more than what you used to have, just SLIGHTLY more than what you used to have. And we USED to have massive HAC fleets not that long ago. Sniper fleets.
Originally by: Hayaishi I for one enjoyed his presentation. Would you folks have preferred if he had not done one at all? Or just read out the report like a children's bed time story?
Gee, wilkers, sir, you are asking if would I prefer fried marshmallows thrown on the ground or marshmallows thrown on the ground and stomped on ? Or that maybe I prefer no marshmallows at all ? Uh... I don't know... can't I just have normal marshmallows without the mud and stomping ? Please ?
I'm sure you're familiar with the Permaband hit song "HTFU"? Why don't you go ahead and do it?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.26 11:29:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Hayaishi I'm sure you're familiar with the Permaband hit song "HTFU"? Why don't you go ahead and do it?
How clever and witty ! I was certainly not expecting that ! Pray tell, what exactly am I supposed to harden myself against again ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Rikki Sals
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.03.26 11:43:00 -
[47]
Aren't insurance payouts a pretty significant isk generator? Keeping them lower might help maintain a more "ideal" isk-to-stuff ratio. But I too would like to see the payouts adjusted more frequently, even if only to get a better idea of what their goals are.
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Hayaishi
Gallente Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2011.03.26 11:44:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Hayaishi on 26/03/2011 11:46:08
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Hayaishi I'm sure you're familiar with the Permaband hit song "HTFU"? Why don't you go ahead and do it?
How clever and witty ! I was certainly not expecting that ! Pray tell, what exactly am I supposed to harden myself against again ?
What I mean is that you should just take what he said and either accept it or ignore it. He's an economist, not the Messiah...
If you don't like what they're doing/done, go run for CSM and tell them face to face, maybe then they will tell you (quite possibly again) why.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.26 13:11:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Rikki Sals Aren't insurance payouts a pretty significant isk generator?
Third largest after bounties and mission rewards.
àbut if that's a problem, reducing bounties and mission rewards would be a (far) better way to go. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.26 18:56:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/03/2011 19:01:29
Originally by: Hayaishi What I mean is that you should just take what he said and either accept it or ignore it. He's an economist, not the Messiah.
Riiiiiiiight, and us (or, in this case, me) commenting about his lack of proper understanding of the EVE economy (with examples), you know, the one thing he's talking about all the time in an area where he's supposedly the expert... that's somehow not according to party policy and needs to be reprimanded ?
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Rikki Sals Aren't insurance payouts a pretty significant isk generator?
Third largest after bounties and mission rewards, but if that's a problem, reducing bounties and mission rewards would be a (far) better way to go.
To give the rest of you guys some idea, it's something around 78% bounties, 12% agent mission rewards (regular+bonus combined) and only around 10% insurance payouts (from which you need to subtract the insurance premiums, so more around 7% net). _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Centri Sixx
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Posted - 2011.03.26 19:12:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Centri Sixx on 26/03/2011 19:12:58 Akita T, we do NOT need to encourage suicide ganking, but for a different reason. It inhibits people's desire to PvP by reinforcing the passivity of the victim. You wont increase suicide ganking that much, because there's a limited number of gankees (edit), and eventually they will move into less vulnerable aspects of play. But you will be reinforcing that PvP is something to avoid.
Players are risk averse, and PvP only works when you encourage losing players to keep playing. I had an idea that you could do so by making PvP missions that rewarded players with points that worked towards cosmetic Incarna gear like clothes or costumes. Win or Lose, you get points, and that way even the bears have a goal to work forwards to. A PvP dailly, in other words.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.26 19:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Centri Sixx Akita T, we do NOT need to encourage suicide ganking
Sure we do. There's far too little of that going on at the moment. On top of that, we need to see a lot more PvP going on in highsec through other mechanics as well, but that's a somewhat different discussion. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.26 19:18:00 -
[53]
Well, to be fair, BLIND suicide ganking (the kind that right now makes up a majority of suicide ganks) could use a bit of discouraging. And the "who cares if my ship blows up, I have friends/alts to pick the wreck up" attitude is not very beneficial either. However, the "targeted" suicide-ganking (you know, the kind where you first get scanned to see if you're holding something valuable) needs to be encouraged. And if we could find a way to enable even to a small degree solo suicide ganking for profit, that would be even better. But... all of that is a whole different set of cans of worms, and nothing that can be easily solved just yet.
Meanwhile, neither I nor any of my alts have EVER been suicide ganked. I repeat... I was not successfully suicide ganked even once. And I was carrying pretty heavy-duty loads at times, and there have been attempts (just none successful). To me that says there's nowhere near enough of a threat from suicide gankers, or at least not the right kind of threat.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.26 19:57:00 -
[54]
àI'd even go so far as to say that the shift towards blind ganking proves how rare ganks have become: people are now feeling so safe in highsec that some ships are made into gank targets simply because they are statistically highly likely to fit enough high-value mods.
These ships are so valuable on average that you don't need to scan them (and, in fact, sorting through potential targets with scanning is a waste of time and manpower and thus reduces the efficiency of your ganking endeavour). I highly doubt that this value creep would happen if space wasn't truely (not just perceptually) far too safe. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.03.26 20:11:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dani Nardieu
Originally by: Akita T ... REALLY.
That's dumb. Lower payout: - discourages suicide ganking - discourages use of MASSIVE COMPLETLY FREE DRAKE AND ALPHA BATTLESHIP FLEETS FOR LITTLE TO NO LOSS IF THEY ALL DIE...
This is not true at all from a practical standpoint.
First of all, the smart suicide gankers pick their targets carefully, ensuring that the reward is greater than the loss. Those who gank for the shear pleasure of it could not care less if they just lost several million for giggles over a dead fleet of macks.
Second, even *IF* the fleet pilot remembers to insure her ship, the insurance payout level has minimal impact on whether or not she participates in a fleet. The combination of null-sec ISK earning (for now) as well as various alliance reimbursement programs mitigate that blow to the wallet. And, tbh, many people simply forget to insure their ship hull, but still manage to make it into fleets with proper ships.
Also, as others have stated above, the cost of rigs, modules and consumables (ammo, paste, etc.) ensure that a ship loss is not free even with a 100% payout on the hull.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2011.03.26 20:23:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Christos Hendez "i wouldnt say it takes us years to acknowledge it - it takes us years to do something about it"
CCP Economist when asked about tehcnetium and insurance fraud.
That was me asking btw.
In the round tables I raised the question again why CCP and especially the economics department ignore problems in upcoming changes spotted by players, also asking especially about the case of Tech. Paraphrasing the answer: That might be an intentional driver for conflict. We argued that this highly regionalized point resource is not working as intended and causing too much imbalance for both economy and 0.0 landscape. I pushed for at least a more equal demand for R64s. Then the Dr. agreed to bring up the issue with game design. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.03.26 21:47:00 -
[57]
If he is missing important trends, perhaps it would be best to suggest what statistics would be helpful indicators to be pulling from the database that would show good or bad trends that concern you?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.26 21:52:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Maplestone If he is missing important trends, perhaps it would be best to suggest what statistics would be helpful indicators to be pulling from the database that would show good or bad trends that concern you?
As if he haven't been doing just that almost ever since the first QEN has been out ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Strazdas Unstoppable
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Posted - 2011.03.26 21:54:00 -
[59]
The guy is acting like a real economist (and i should know, i am one) - talks a lot but doesnt really say anything.
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Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.03.26 22:34:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Akita T As if he haven't been doing just that almost ever since the first QEN has been out ?
I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me, but I think we have our wires crossed here. Pehaps I'm just missing some background of commonly discussed topics?
If you feel the playerbase understands the economy better than he does, what indicator/lever do you suggest predicts/controls the outcomes CCP desires better than the ones being currently measured/used?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.27 00:43:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Akita T on 27/03/2011 00:43:36
Originally by: Maplestone I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me, but I think we have our wires crossed here. Pehaps I'm just missing some background of commonly discussed topics? If you feel the playerbase understands the economy better than he does, what indicator/lever do you suggest predicts/controls the outcomes CCP desires better than the ones being currently measured/used?
You have two examples right in this very thread already, but let's recap'em.
Concrete example : the insurance debacle // the mineral price issue What he says about it : that adjusting the insurance payout has made a difference What we say about it : the insurance payout adjustment only made any sense in the extremely short run, the adjustment was way too heavy-handed, and now that the trend has actually not just reversed but gone way back above pre-change levels, they're still not readjusting insurance payouts (why the bloody hell not, it was supposed to be periodic, but last time I checked ONCE and then never is not quite periodic yet - or the period is way, way too long). What he SHOULD do : realize that insurance was merely a "pressure valve" for a much worse underlying problem, one which was not fixed, but merely just barely touched - the issue lies with the ratios one tends to obtain minerals from in-game sources (and the potential income vs risk and/or workload required) compared to the ratios those minerals are actually required in manufacture of new things. Come to think of it, that's pretty much the same problem he has when talking about moon minerals, but at least there it's simpler (there's only one type of moon mineral source). He needs to collect completely different types of data (which at one time a nice dev did provide to us as a snapshot for just one time interval), namely stuff like percentage provenience of each mineral from the various sources - melted modules (mostly loot, but also mineral compression businesses fit in here), drone compounds and finally, refining from ore. But even THAT data was not sufficiently detailed - it needs to go down on a per-item level, not just overall, to identify WHICH items might be an issue of some kind, or which ore is way too underused for its desired value, and so on and so forth.
ANOTHER concrete example : TECHNETIUM in particular, and moon minerals in general, with a touch on alchemy. What he says about it : see earlier in the thread - basically "don't know" and/or "can't say" and/or "I'll talk to game design" - which is basically useless and shows just how badly prepared he was in spite of this being a major point of contention regarding the EVE economy right now What the community HAD to say about it ever since a year and a half ago : Linkage What he SHOULD be tracking and hopefully sharing with us : total amounts of each moon materials extracted on a monthly basis (split by amount into silos vs amount into reactors directly), total existing stockpiles, total amount of each moon mineral used in reacting (split by reaction type, including alchemy reactions), and last but not least both total amount of advanced materials and total of each T2 component being used up in manufacture on a monthly basis.
TL;DR : he focuses almost exclusively on NEARLY MEANINGLESS statistical data (from a gameplay // game balance standpoint anyway - they might be meaningful from an economic standpoint, if this was a real world economy, but it's not) and refuses to show us that he's capable of understanding the cause-to-effect relationships (assuming he would be). In other words, he doesn't understand what he's talking about, doesn't know on what to focus to help the devs, HE DOES NOT EVEN HOLD ANY KIND OF DIALOGUE WITH THE PLAYERS EVEN IF HE WAS REPEATEDLY INVITED TO DO SO, let alone acknowledge he received ANY of the advice that has been abundantly given over the past few years. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Ticarus Hellbrandt
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Posted - 2011.03.27 00:54:00 -
[62]
The economist guy is terrible and has less clue about eve than the average joe bloggs.
I think he is only employed by ccp so they can say stuff like ' hey our game is so complicated we have to hire an Economist to work it out'
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