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Captain Robby
Kopasas SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.08.26 08:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
It is easy to counter use drones / FOF missile's / sensor damps and possibly some others its not the best EW its a good one i admit that but can be countered if you work around countering it.
Each EW weapon as such is used for debuffing a enamy ship if used right most people are going to call OP about it but why so much on ECM?
So i ask again why are people so butt hurt about it? |
Riot Girl
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.26 08:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why doesn't ECM work on NPCs? What makes them so special that they have the power to break immersion? |
Ensign X
104
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Posted - 2012.08.26 08:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
ECM does work on NPCs. |
Taranius De Consolville
Lost Dawn Chaos Corrosive.
212
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Posted - 2012.08.26 08:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
tbh ecm has never bothered me, ur either dead or ur not, how u get there is ur choice xD |
Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin
121
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Posted - 2012.08.26 08:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Its because when I've locked and pointed something no other ECM can get that point off till I'm dead.
ECM can, and it can do it to 4 others if the ecm is from a falcon. It also now has me ****** because I'm pointed and now unable to control range because my web stops functioning.
In small gang ECM shuts everything down, other forms of EW do not. Sensor damps could do it but its hard to get a lock range down to within inside point range. |
Riot Girl
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.08.26 09:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ensign X wrote:ECM does work on NPCs. It does? I've never tried it, it was just something I'd heard.
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
133
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Posted - 2012.08.26 09:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Captain Robby wrote: So i ask again why are people so butt hurt about it?
Because they need excuses for being bad at pvp. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
970
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Posted - 2012.08.26 09:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
FoF |
Ensign X
104
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Posted - 2012.08.26 09:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Ensign X wrote:ECM does work on NPCs. It does? I've never tried it, it was just something I'd heard.
Yeah, haha, it does. I found out by accident when I undocked a mission ship with EC-300 Drones instead of Combat drones. |
Tiberius Sunstealer
Phantom Soulreavers Axiom Solaris
133
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Posted - 2012.08.26 10:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Target painters do not debuff an enemy ship. Your argument is invalid. |
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2594
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Posted - 2012.08.26 10:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
It's because the basic effect of ECM is simply bad gameplay. Getting killed is never exactly enjoyable, but getting killed while you can just twidle your thumbs and pray for the goddess of RNG to smile on you is just terrible. It just takes too much control and options away from the victim. It doesn't exactly help when the counters, outside of having more people, aren't exactly great against anything else.
This isn't just a problem with EVE though. Similar effects are in many games and in most of them there are game mechanics in place to prevent it from working longer then a few seconds at a time with a temporary immunity provided to the victims afterwards. Even in pen and paper games veteran managers avoid using certain enemies, because a bad roll of dice can make it so, that the players can only sit and watch as they are slowly beaten to death and they can only pray for a good dice roll to be able to do something, as in actually play the game. It has never been a good mechanic in any game and only seems to be workable when you put severe limitations on it's use. Something EVE currently doesn't do, so people will complain until the day such restrictions are put in place or ECM is finally changed to something else. |
Captain Robby
Kopasas SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.08.26 10:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
ive never had problems with ECM because i have drones out :) they ECM me the drones eat them :P |
TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance
223
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Posted - 2012.08.26 10:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Because the only way to counter ECM is to fit to counter ECM. This completely gimps your fit, while at the same time means you've wasted a slot if you don't encounter ECM.
Let me put it this way:
Sensor dampening: You can fit a sensor booster, which also increases your lock time and lock range. Energy neutralizing: You can fit a cap booster, which will be very useful for keeping you alive in any real fight. Tracking disruption: You can web your enemy and fit more tracky ammo, both of which will mean you hit while disrupted. Target painting: Lol. Man up and take slightly more damage. Webbing: Gotta go fast. Pointing: Commit to the fight.
Then we come to ECM: ECM: Fit a gimpy module which only decreases the chance of you being locked down, not stops it, and wastes a slot because it has no other beneficial effect. "We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming. |
Tiberius Sunstealer
Phantom Soulreavers Axiom Solaris
133
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Posted - 2012.08.26 10:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
You forgot the part where ECM counters all other forms of EWar as they all require lock (unless you're using drones). |
Beta Stryker
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
9
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Posted - 2012.08.26 11:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Its because when I've locked and pointed something no other ECM can get that point off till I'm dead.
ECM can, and it can do it to 4 others if the ecm is from a falcon. It also now has me ****** because I'm pointed and now unable to control range because my web stops functioning.
In small gang ECM shuts everything down, other forms of EW do not. Sensor damps could do it but its hard to get a lock range down to within inside point range.
Ya, like your last thought here states, that first sentence is very incorrect. ReSensor Damps ftw. The falcon happens to be really good at ECM, but if you get an Arazu or...(can't remember the force recon version) you'll probably be able to harvest tears, too. |
Beta Stryker
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
9
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Posted - 2012.08.26 11:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tiberius Sunstealer wrote:You forgot the part where ECM counters all other forms of EWar as they all require lock (unless you're using drones).
Key observation. Maybe we should think about using those. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9241
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Posted - 2012.08.26 11:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Beta Stryker wrote:Key observation. Maybe we should think about using those. GǪexcept that they are also subject to ECM, that they are quite weak in comparison, and that there is absolutely no guarantee that they will let you get rid of the ECM source.
Again, the reason ECM is such a sore point is that it is does something no other ewar does: it completely locks you out of the fight. All you can do is try to fly off and hope that no-one else is there to prevent you from doing that as well. Its only actual counter also has no additional benefits (and no guaranteed results) unlike the counter-modules for all other ewar. That double-whammy is quite ridiculous: massively larger effect from the ewar itself, massively smaller benefit from the counter-ewar.
This also hints at what needs to be done to it: make it less crippling and make the counter relevant to other tasks.
GǪand of course, on top of this, there's the random nature, which is frustrating in and of itself, and the curiously and pointlessly long cycles that offers no differentiation between different ships and classes. As DSQ points out, it pretty much combines all kinds of bad gameplay in one neat package. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Cede Forster
29
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Posted - 2012.08.26 11:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Some points:
Sensor Damps decrease your lock range and break the lock if the target is out of the range.
ECCM increases your sensor strength and affects how easy you can be probed (signature radius / sensor strength = probe indicator size, wasn't it ?)
ECM is chance based, that has advantages and disadvantages for both sides. You can never be sure to jam a target, just increase the chance, you can never be sure to not get jammed,
The four electronic warfare approaches are supposed to be different, if you want everything getting normalized, i can recommend WOW, otherwise ... htfu ? |
rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2012.08.26 11:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:Because the only way to counter ECM is to fit to counter ECM.
Or ECCM.
Nothing like watching a Tier 3 BC hit a Falcon because it couldn't get its jam off in time - they soon leave the field. |
Selinate
967
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Posted - 2012.08.26 12:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Beta Stryker wrote:Tiberius Sunstealer wrote:You forgot the part where ECM counters all other forms of EWar as they all require lock (unless you're using drones). Key observation. Maybe we should think about using those.
This is a terrible argument. There are a good few amarr ships that can be great for PvP that don't even have drone bays... |
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
672
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Posted - 2012.08.26 12:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Its because when I've locked and pointed something no other ECM can get that point off till I'm dead.
ECM can, and it can do it to 4 others if the ecm is from a falcon. It also now has me ****** because I'm pointed and now unable to control range because my web stops functioning.
In small gang ECM shuts everything down, other forms of EW do not. Sensor damps could do it but its hard to get a lock range down to within inside point range.
Arazu/Lachesis without specific boosted sensor can't target "Tha Falcon" before the Falcon targets the Arazu/Lachesis -if one can take several ships out of the equation, the other should be able to target at least at the same speed, instead of a stupid 200km targeting range without sensor mods (Lachesis) when Damps at this range have no effect
The only viable reason why you actually use these ships being long point, and as you mentioned, a competent Falcon pilot will simply jam without a single problem the long point (106km for Lachesis all 5, faction point, claymore boosting) along with 3 other ships without much of a problem.
However if I can agree ECM is a little bit too OP it's exactly because there's no actual effective EWAR counter to ECM, Gallente Damps could/should be the one but to make this happen a lot of changes are needed to gallente Ewar and dedicated ships.
EDIT: ECCM is a little bit like RAH, they're not useless but let some pvp virtuous come here explain us everyone should fit at least one brb |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
444
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Posted - 2012.08.26 12:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
ECM has no stacking penalties in fact, it gets significantly strong with more 'dice rolls' ALL OTHER EW gets weaker, despite not being able to do enough with one module anyway.
TDs arnt as broken as damps, because 50% less range or tracking, hurts way more than 50% less target range or scan res, its not the 20 second warp out to die slowly that a jam cycle is.
This is why ecm drones are so good, 5 damp drones stacking penalized do up to one modules worth (the large ones), where as ecm drones get 5 rolls of that dice every 20 seconds and only one needs a jam at any given time.
Im surprised in a game this complicated, where your knowledge is rewarded, the game designers allow everything to hand on a dice. And they have let this happen for far too long. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Halcyon Ingenium
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
177
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:Because the only way to counter ECM is to fit to counter ECM. This completely gimps your fit
Is it gimped as bad when your jammed and unable to do anything? Oh right it isn't. So you want protection from a contingency, but you don't want to have to sacrifice for that protection. Which is bullshit. You want to fly without "gimping your fit", then you have to pay the price. You can choose to have your high DPS, or you can choose to be prepared for a contingency. CCP says you don't get both. Deal with it. They say that in learning the game Go, it is best to lose your first 50 games as soon as possible. This is because Go is complex, and the only way you will start to get an idea of strategy and play is by first sucking and failing as hard as you can. So...In EVE, it is best to get your first 50 deaths by combat as soon as possible. |
Cede Forster
30
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
ah nvm this, caldari ecm is great, in return they got missiles, get over it |
Captain Robby
Kopasas SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
you say adding a ECCM to your ship gimps your ship but look at it in another sence he locks you and sits there mindlessly trying to jam you and fails you then have gimped his ship just to lower your mid slot by one? witch in turn his ship job/role is removed and hes a easy target for you. |
Gun Gal
Dark Club
89
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dear failures,rejects, and and wow refugees. learn to play |
M1k3y Koontz
Blackened Skies The Unthinkables
36
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
1st up: DEATH TO FALCONS
On a more serious note: If they give ECM a stacking penalty or make it so only one ECM module can be activated on a ship by any one pilot then ECM wont be the small gang/solo killer.
Or, someone said something like this earlier and I thought it was a good idea, make the ECCM module a 100% garuntee you can't be jammed. ECM fixed.
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:FoF
Turrets
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
274
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Aren't autotargeting missiles those things that shoot rocks in preference to the primary? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9242
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Posted - 2012.08.26 14:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:Is it gimped as bad when your jammed and unable to do anything? Oh right it isn't. So you want protection from a contingency, but you don't want to have to sacrifice for that protection. No. People would gladly have the protection from a contingency if there was some more reason than that contingency to fit it, much like with all other counter-ewar modules. That's the whole point: the other counter-ewar is not dependent on contingencies.
You fit a sebo because it provides a good boost to your ship, and the fact that it also gives you a buffer against damps is a very neat bonus should that contingency be realised. You fit tracking enhancers/computers because they provide excellent boosts to your guns, and the fact that it gives you a level of protection against tracking disruptors is a neat bonus should that contingency be realised. TPs are a bit different in that they don't have a counter-module, but that's because they don't affect your performance GÇö only everyone else's.
GǪbut then we have ECCM, which provides no useful boost to your ship (no, being a minuscule amount harder to being probed down doesn't matter unless we're talking about the 1:1+ sigrad/sensor ratios) and should the contingency be realised where they provide a bonus, there is no guarantee that it will have any real effect.
So yes, it massively gimps your fit compared to all other counter-ewar modules. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Riot Girl
State War Academy Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2012.08.26 14:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
The idea is that ECCM boosts your sensor strength, so maybe it should combined with some other type of module related to that function. A module which boosts scan resolution would probably be the most favourable choice. |
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