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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2285
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Posted - 2012.08.28 14:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Someone is taking this far too seriously.
Look, I get it that you don't like high heels. That's fine, don't wear them. I know some women who genuinely do like them, and that's also fine. My wife doesn't own any because she's 5'8, and heels make her tall to the point of drawing attention.
I can't agree with any notions of heels being misogynistic (btw, using that word only marginalizes you...avoid it). Most of the women I know well enough to talk to about such things tell me they feel like they look their best in heels, even if they can't wear them for long. When creating an avatar it stands to reason that women want to create an idealized version of themselves, and for many high heels are a part of that.
The screen shot showing the feet molded for high heels should clue you in to part of it: they designed the model for a single shoe type. for the time being, the feet are inflexible, so they had to either only offer heels, or not offer them at all. For whatever reason, they chose heels. Probably because that's what the art department thought looked best (see previous paragraph).
Why do almost all games feature men with chiseled abs? Because that's how most of us want to picture ourselves. We're not going to take a game seriously with a potbellied, farmer-tanned hero. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2285
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Posted - 2012.08.28 14:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:During character select I was forced to choose high heels , and that pissed me off.
Some of the ships in Eve are ugly. If they still do their jobs, I still fly them.
You're complaining because the artwork isn't according to your taste. Correction: you're angry because because you don't like the artwork.
Grow up. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2293
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Posted - 2012.08.29 16:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:Being told to not use the word misogynistic because it marginalizes me...by a man... wow? In a discussion on the topic of racism, calling someone a racist is a sure way to completely shut down any dialog. Telling a man he's misogynistic because he doesn't share your view of the world is the same thing. If you want to sway opinions, you'll have to stop insulting people for a bit.
Clue: Misogyny is "hatred or dislike of women or girls." Not everything you view as misogynistic comes from any such intent. For example, I could say "I really want my wife to quit her job and stay home with the kids." You might immediately assume I'm an oppressive pig who wants a barefoot pregnant wife making me sandwiches. The truth of the matter is, that was my wife's ambition, and it became my ambition out of love for her.
She quit her job last month and is happier than ever. God I'm such a pig.
Also, I'm way better at making sandwiches.
Isabel Midnight wrote:How about this , it was misogynistic of the art department to decide for all women that they look better in heels instead of just making females taller.
You're asserting that CCP hates women. I'm suggesting that maybe they just prefer the look of women in high heels. Or maybe they did market research, and most of the women in their research preferred characters who wore high heels. As they seem to have been limited to one shoe type per model, they went with what they thought would be most preferred. Don't assume malice when profit, preference, and ignorance are all possibilities. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2295
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Posted - 2012.08.29 16:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote: Female capsuleers don't wear high heels.
Due to a weird design flaw any female capsuleer has incredibly elongated heels on their clone, so what you mistaken think is a heel for display is actually encasing your cloning defect.
HTH
On the plus side, we've seen a dramatic drop in foot fetishes. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2295
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Posted - 2012.08.29 19:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:CCPs assumption propagates misogyny whether they intended it or not. No, it doesn't. Depicting women in high heels does NOTHING to propagate hate or discrimination. Just stop.
Isabel Midnight wrote:Also at all the dudes screaming 'noo ur being sexist' , misandry isn't a real thing because for it to actually be real women would have to be in a position of privilege over men. That's like saying black people can't be racist because they're a minority. I have a scar that demonstrates otherwise.
Isabel Midnight wrote:As much as you whine and complain that they are today because of your fictional 'reverse sexism' , they are not and woman are still predominantly less privileged than men.
I think 99% of the commentors here would benefit massively from reading a feminism 101 "Privilege" is another one of those words that is just tiring in discussions like these.
I've been accused of every kind of "privilege" there is. In truth, that's an empty word used to dismiss anything said by someone who fits into a certain category. You can cite "male privilege" and simply dismiss anything I say, while in the same breath claiming that it's impossible for a woman to be sexist. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2296
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Posted - 2012.08.29 19:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:What sandwich do you find to be most enjoyable?
Subway melt on flatbread with pepperjack cheese is quite awesome.
A current favorite of mine is a grilled cheese made with sourdough and mild cheddar.
I'm also somewhat addicted to bleu cheese at the moment and am trying to figure out good uses for it in sandwiches. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2296
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I'm also somewhat addicted to bleu cheese at the moment and am trying to figure out good uses for it in sandwiches. I don't normally use that cheese directly. However! Bleu cheese dressing can be used as a substitute for mayo and / or mustard for some sandwiches. Keeping in mind it can have a more salty aspect than mayo, it has a nice balance with other ingredients like bacon. (In my opinion) I have been meaning to try the combination of a tuna sandwich using this bleu cheese dressing instead of mayo. Bleu goes really well with beef (burgers and steaks) so I've been thinking about pairing it with roast beef. Also, it goes great with anything resembling buffalo sauce.
I've taken to snacking on the stuff with an ice-cold Dr. Pepper. The rest of the world will probably think me weird, but I find it tasty. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2301
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Posted - 2012.08.30 01:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
I put my misogyny on hold for a bit and made my wife an awesome turkey on rye.
Is that better? The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2302
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Posted - 2012.08.30 15:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:High heels were designed by a man; The origins of high heels are lost in history. They go back about as far as civilization.
Mars Theran wrote: they lift the buttocks to present a pretty posterior apparently. Previous speculation on the purpose of high heels includes things such as making it harder to walk gracefully, thus making women LESS attractive, thus less likely to be unfaithful. Completely the opposite intention...but of course it's all the fault of those bad oppressive men... ...who also wore high heels for centuries in much of Europe.
What strikes me about all of this is that there seems to be no history of women being forced to do many of the things they blame men for. In fact, a lot of these things probably started with a woman doing something for the purpose of attracting men and then the rest of the women following suit in order to remain competitive. Or maybe it was adopted by the aristocratic women so that they'd stand above the "common" people, and of course when the rich and powerful do something the rest of the populace will ultimately attempt to imitate it.
It's all a cosmetic arms race driven by women, NOT by domineering men. Although I must confess to enjoying the show.
The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2302
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Posted - 2012.08.30 18:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:High heels are not an ideal and as bad as corsets or practices like feet binding I won't agree that they're "as bad", but I certainly agree that they trade well-being for vanity. I don't think anyone has argued otherwise here.
My problem is that you're blaming men for the consensual fashion choices made by women. I get that you don't like high heels and would rather not see them in the game, but rather than pitching a fit about how evil men are, why don't you calmly suggest that CCP add the OPTION to wear other types of shoes in future incarna expansion? The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2307
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Posted - 2012.08.31 14:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:bump Why? Do you think it will serve any purpose to call further attention to this thread? You're asking for the female model to be modified and all its footwear be redesigned. That's a significant amount of artwork for a feature that is currently essentially single player. Regardless of how offensive a few players find it, it's a tremendous waste of time when you consider they might spend it working on in-space content where actual gameplay happens.
Lose the chip on your shoulder and raise this issue as a lack of options when CCP starts talking about expanding walk in station. You'll have a chance at actually getting results doing it that. way. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2307
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Posted - 2012.08.31 17:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:gonna keep bumping till it's fixed I highly doubt you have the resolve to bump this for the length of time it will take for CCP to make what amounts to a minor cosmetic change that's only apparent if you're looking for it. They have a game to balance and ships to make pretty. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2317
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Posted - 2012.09.01 22:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:p.s. have you noticed we all look a bit like a meeting of various different biker gangs? I feel the need to dispute this observation. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2321
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Posted - 2012.09.03 19:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aethelric Brandt wrote:This change would take virtually no effort
You're so very wrong about that. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2332
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
L Salander wrote:forcing all female characters to dress a certain way is very misogynistic.
No, it's not. I've already made a post where I clearly state several other possible reasons for it, including market research among female players. It's entirely possible that the feedback they got from women favored high heels, and technical limitations only allowed for one type of shoe.
You accuse people of acting on hate while never considering they might have other motives. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2332
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Isabel's arguments So far, I don't think she's presented any. Just baseless accusations of hate, intermixed with some hypocritical hate of her own. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2335
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Posted - 2012.09.07 18:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Uhh...dudes? Characterizing the feminist movement as bad for women just feeds their delusions.
I'm just waiting for the OP to make a thread about being forced to wear a bra. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2346
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Posted - 2012.09.10 13:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:intent has nothing to do with whether it is misogynistic or not. I was walking along one day and there was this woman going the other way and I accidentally hated her for a second. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2347
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Posted - 2012.09.10 14:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:It's hilarious went dudes post about how 'oppressed' they are in these modern times.
How dare we point out when we're unfairly represented or mistreated! Blah blah misogyny blah blah privilege blah blah blah.
At first I thought you were a very clever troll. Then you kept going and I thought you were serious. Now you're down to not even attempting to have a conversation and simply posting one-line idiocy to keep people going and I'm back to thinking troll, only much less clever. You've gotten lazy. You might spice up future posts by talking about the chauvinistic patriarchy. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2348
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Posted - 2012.09.10 14:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:By all means write me off as a troll if it means you stop posting your drivel in here. I would love to see you try to explain to a room of people irl that men are the ones who are being oppressed by feminists calling them out on their misogyny. Who said we're "the ones being oppressed"? Why can't both genders point out flaws in society?
No one is being oppressed. Our society sucks and places unrealistic expectations on everyone. There's no grand conspiracy of men trying to subjugate women...it's just stupidity in action by all parties involved.
Isabel Midnight wrote:Misogyny so ingrained that they don't even realize they are doing it and get super offended if you point it out. "You hate me and don't even know it."
Of course I'm going to get offended if you accuse me of acts of hatred. Wouldn't you? The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2348
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Posted - 2012.09.10 14:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Isabel Midnight wrote:It's pretty obvious to anyone educated reading this that both are you are very ingrained misogynists. Show me one example of my so-called misogyny.
Go ahead, I'll wait. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2349
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Posted - 2012.09.10 14:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sal Volatile wrote:A woman posts about how she thinks that being forced to put heels on her character is sexist and promptly gets dogpiled and insulted by numerous male posters.
The first page:
1: OP 2: "this is a troll, right?" 3: "Men should get high heels, too!" 4: OP: "Post 3 isn't relevant to the subject I've dictated." 5: OP: bump 6: Marginally amusing troll poem/song 7: "Not another useless thread" 8: OP: #7 obviously hates women 9: "CCP should put flats in the NEX" 10: "It's only a game." 11: "Is this really that important?" 12: "Nobody cares." 13: "I'd like to have shoes without heels." 14: "The vehement reaction against this is telling." (what vehement reaction? Vehement apathy?) 15: "Agree." 16: "I have seen the future, and it wears heels." 17: Strange post talking about trans players and then supporting the OP and then...asking the OP out? 18: "How is having a female character crossdressing?" 19: #17 replies to #18. 20: "Did you know that high heels may improve the tone of a woman's pelvic floor, thus affecting female incontinence?" (which I believe was pasted from some web site, obviously a joke on the part of the poster)
#7, 10, 11, and 12 all had the same initial reaction I did: is this really that important? This is shoes in a game about internet space ships. The reaction wasn't one of hatred or oppression, but a total lack of caring...which was promptly interpreted as hate.
There were four posts of direct support, four posts of the "meh" variety, and it's being suggested that this thread got "dogpiled" by woman-haters. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2349
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Posted - 2012.09.10 15:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Now that the OP has accused me directly of misogyny, I went through my own posts looking for it. This is what I found:
1) I have absolutely no problem with the OP's personal dislike for high heels, but dispute the notion of them being misogynistic. Women are not forced to wear them. In fact some women wear them because they like the appearance of heels.
High heels are bad for the wearer. Everyone should know this by now. But asserting that they're a tool of oppression used by men to make women more attractive is ignoring history, where it was previously suggested that high heels were used to make women look less graceful so they wouldn't be attractive...and then there's the fact that MEN WORE HIGH HEELS FOR CENTURIES. Today, heels are a consensual fashion choice for women. I'd love to see any sort of proof that women are forced to wear heels, or penalized for not doing so.
2) I think "-ism" words (racism, sexism, ageism, et cetera...misogyny falls into this group) as well as the term "privilege" are overused and only serve to dilute arguments. In this specific case, they seem to be tossed around any time the OP needs to dismiss a poster as not being entitled to an opinion. "You don't count because you're sexist." Conversations on such topics are far more productive of those words are left out entirely. A conversation about high heels on game avatars turned into a referendum on sexual politics because the OP and a couple of others continually accused all their detractors of acting on hate.
3) There would likely be a significant investment of effort on the part of CCP to change this, as illustrated by the "molded" feet of the stripped female model. It was apparently not designed in a way that it could tolerate multiple types of shoes. As I said before, "they have ships to make pretty." I don't agree that this needs to be a priority for the art team when all of the actual gameplay is in space. (something I meant to say but never got around to putting into a post: It *should* be on the list of things to change with future incarna iterations.)
4) The choice of high heels for Eve avatars is not necessarily misogynistic. I suggested that it might be the case that they did market research and got better response on avatars in heels, or that it was simply an artistic preference. Stating that it was done out of some deep-seated dislike of women is leaping to a rather far-fetched conclusion.
Some highlights of my posts:
Quote:You're complaining because the artwork isn't according to your taste. Correction: you're angry because because you don't like the artwork.
Quote:I could say "I really want my wife to quit her job and stay home with the kids." You might immediately assume I'm an oppressive pig who wants a barefoot pregnant wife making me sandwiches. The truth of the matter is, that was my wife's ambition, and it became my ambition out of love for her.
She quit her job last month and is happier than ever. God I'm such a pig.
Also, I'm way better at making sandwiches.
Quote:It's all a cosmetic arms race driven by women, NOT by domineering men. Although I must confess to enjoying the show. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2350
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Posted - 2012.09.10 15:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:I think a shop called "Floppies Sandwiches" would have excellent sales.
It would have a deliberately casual air to it, offer wifi and comfortable seating for people to relax and hang out.
Kinda like a coffee shop, but sandwich focused. I am sure coffee could be sold too.
It's been suggested in the past that I open up a burger place. I could get behind the sandwich shop thing though.
If only I could run a restaurant and still be lazy. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2354
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Posted - 2012.09.10 19:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:women are discouraged from doing anything that might be perceived as masculine. I.e. police work, fire fighting, military roles and so on. So when they do, they end up as secretaries, or dispatchers. Positions away from dangerous activities. The physical requirements for such jobs often exclude the majority of women. A firefighter needs to be able to carry an incapacitated victim out of a building. As emotionally strong as women can be, their bodies aren't as durable as ours. We are biologically better suited to dangerous, physically demanding work. it's only rational that men would dominate careers like that. Even with truly equal opportunity, more men would be selected for such jobs based on qualifications.
And yes, we do have a bit of a "protect the women" mentality that drives us to keep them in safe places. That's another aspect of our biology: we're driven to be risk-takers on behalf of our family and community in order to ensure the safety of the women and children, ensuring our genes carry on.
PinkKnife wrote:This society teaches women "don't get raped" rather than teaching men "don't ****". Yeah, let's propagate THIS myth some more.
PinkKnife wrote:For example, the lesson isn't "don't **** women" it's "don't walk alone in a dark alley". Why can't it be both? After all, I'm pretty sure both "burglary is bad" AND "lock your doors at night" are both common lessons. Sure, we'd all love to live in a world where the greatest risk of walking down a dark alley is tripping over a startled cat, but we don't. There are bad people out there. Don't afford them more opportunities than you have to.
PinkKnife wrote:Yes, women do graduate college at higher rates, yet despite this, they are still only a fraction of managerial positions, and they still make 70% of what men do even accounting for experience and education.
Women are also less likely to work significant amounts of overtime, and they don't stay at any given place of employment as long. Because of this, women are less likely to be perceived as having initiative or they don't stay on long enough to get the same promotions and raises as men. The "gender gap" exists in some places, but it's not as wide as some numbers suggest.
Women have the obvious disadvantage of maternity. If you want to have children, you're in for some serious downtime from the office if you want to properly care for a newborn. Men are out of work for no more than a week in most cases. No discrimination is required for a woman to be perceived as being less dedicated or simply have less face-time with the person who would decide between her and a male colleague for promotion. There doesn't have to be a conscious "oh she had a baby we can't promote her" thought; her male competitor was simply there when it counted.
My father works for the federal government. He faces an opposite situation: women are directly given preference for promotions by having points added to their score on the tests they take to be considered. A minority woman in his workplace gets a full 15 points added to a grade that caps at 100. You want embittered misogyny, you should listen to some of the men who have worked in places like that for their entire career.
PinkKnife wrote:The reason laws protecting women and other minorities is because they are largely targeted because of who they are, and thus deserving of extra protections to counter that. I'm not sure what you mean by "targeted". If you're talking about crime, then you're wrong. The vast majority of crimes aren't about hate. **** might be the obvious exception, but I think that having a different set of laws for raping women versus raping men is just as wrong as any other sort of discrimination. **** is ****, it's a horrible thing, and the punishment should be the same regardless of the victim. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2354
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 19:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kult Altol wrote:I don't think the strip club degrades females, but the females degrade them selves. Meh.
The strip club puts a heft enough price tag on degradation that some women will tolerate it because the alternative is more work for less pay. Still, most of the women in places like that aren't trapped; they simply don't like any alternative. If every woman were to decide the money wasn't good enough, there would be no more strip clubs. Well, not the kind most men would be interested in. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2354
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Posted - 2012.09.10 19:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:It is entirely reasonable that you could act the part of the floor host, and ensure the comfort and well being of the guests by mingling with them and being social.
Not really. I suspect I'd be far too particular about the food being offered up as "mine" to not be in the kitchen hovering over every worker. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2355
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Posted - 2012.09.10 19:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:since they aren't in a capsuleer pod suspended in amniotic goo flying a spaceship, they should probably wear sensible shoes. Just sayin....
So I shouldn't open a restaurant themed on the fact that all employees must wear high heels? The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
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