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Azelor Delaria
Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:29:00 -
[1]
This is a serious question, not a trololol post. I see the term "griefing" thrown around all the time, and would like some input. But some background on why I'm bringing it to the forums.
The corporation I joined is a "PvP" corporation. We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec and low sec, passing war decs, doing 1v1s outside Dodixie Moon 20 station (and before anyone says anything, they're legit. No RR or anything unless someone breaks the rules), and roaming low sec for pirates. Recently we startd to pick up some mercenary contracts. Nothing major, since we;re not a huge mercenary corporation. We do, however, get the job done.
Recently we were hired to war dec a group of griefers. As the diplomacy officer, it's my job to inform people of why they have been war decced, though not who our contractor is. I am also tasked with making sure that all ransoms are done "by the book". The griefers promised to fight us. with the CEO even promising to "stomp [us] into the ground" on multiple occassions. As we are based in Dodixie, the daily run to Kaaputenen would be long, arduous, and boring. We'd camp them in with a varying number of ships, ranging from a lone Vengeance to a few battleships. But they never fought.
Finally we happened to be doing D-Scans to try to find a war taregt in Ikao. He wasin space, but we figured he'd be cloaked. Suddenly, I noticed a Hulk that was not named. It had the pilot's name, and that pilot was a war target. quickly alt-tabbing to my alt camping them in in Kaaputenen, we realized that the pilot was camped in, so the Hulk had to belong to an alt. We found them found they had several alts in a mining corporation. Like good mercs, we decced the alt corporation because we wanted to do the job.
I even sent out a letter to the CEO of the alt mining corporation why we were deccing them. He wanted to try to "reason" with us. We gave him a basic list of demands: we knew that one of the WT alts had an Orca in the corporation. We wanted it dead. We also realized that during the war dec we had someone from the alt corp apply because he wanted to "fight" the WTs. Obvious alt is obvious, and we knew he flew a Rattlesnake. We wanted that on our killboard, too. He refused, claiming he couldn't "trust" us becase we were mercenaries.
A few days afterwards, I got the following mail:
Quote: Greetings.
I have been thinking about the reasoning behind your corp war decing mine, and I came up with some realizations.
Your corp stated the reason for the war is because you found some SF alts within our corporation, and you war dec'ed WEX to get those players to fight in SF. That the war has nothing to do with this corporation itself, just the specific players.
I find that this reason goes beyond the scope of the MMORPG EVE Online. The war contract that your corp originally received was to dec SF, and the characters therein. I am almost certain that the contract said nothing about the physical players who pay to play the game, and all of their alts.
War decing a corporation because the players have alts in that corp is nothing short of cyber harassment and cyber bullying.
If you do not drop the war dec on Wiyrkomi Excavations, I will have no choice but to contact CCP and report your corporation for cyber harassment beyond the scope of the game, stating that the players themselves feel harassed and threatened by the reasons for this war dec.
This is not a bluff.
I will provide CCP with mails sent from your corporation to Carpet stating the reasons for the war dec above.
If this does not work, then I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act.
My whole point for the rant is: when is it griefing? Has there been a post on this, or can we assume that there will never be a definitive answer? ***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
Sinister Dextor
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:39:00 -
[2]
You sir, are a terrorist, and we don't take kindly to your sort round these parts. Your one chance is to high-tail it to I-Raq afore some god fearing Patriots come a knockin.
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Azelor Delaria
Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:40:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Sinister Dextor You sir, are a terrorist, and we don't take kindly to your sort round these parts. Your one chance is to high-tail it to I-Raq afore some god fearing Patriots come a knockin.
Well it's a good thing I made cookies! I wouldn't want my visitors to leave with empty stomachs! ***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
Clementina
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:41:00 -
[4]
What you are doing is not even close to griefing. You should continue for as long as your employer wills it and is paying you. If you find other alt corporations, declare war against them too.
If you have a website, you should also post this somewhere, because these are some pretty good tears.
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:43:00 -
[5]
LOL patriot act. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
Samuel Caldara
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:45:00 -
[6]
Bull, that guy can go stuff it up his arse.
You could have wardecc'd that corporation simply because you wanted to. You are just being nice and telling them the reason why they are being attacked. That is a game mechanic and is totally legitimate. If you couldn't be wardecc'd unless you wanted no one would ever be wardecce'd...
I say go with it, war dec him and watch the tears flow...
(P.S. what is the correct spelling of wardec? and wardecc'd?)
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Azelor Delaria
Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Samuel Caldara Bull, that guy can go stuff it up his arse.
You could have wardecc'd that corporation simply because you wanted to. You are just being nice and telling them the reason why they are being attacked. That is a game mechanic and is totally legitimate. If you couldn't be wardecc'd unless you wanted no one would ever be wardecce'd...
I say go with it, war dec him and watch the tears flow...
(P.S. what is the correct spelling of wardec? and wardecc'd?)
This happened a while ago. The decs have since passed, but we ended up killing a Proteus and Megathron, putting our ISK Destroyed at over 1.1 Billion with those two ships. The griefers ended up pretty much disbanding after that. ***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:51:00 -
[8]
Griefing is when you're screwing with people just to cause them grief.
You, however, are being paid, and it's nothing personal at all, so on with the explosions.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.11 00:14:00 -
[9]
Quote: I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act
Confirming that the entire world and every person inhabiting it is under the auspices of America's "justice" system.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.01.11 00:27:00 -
[10]
Probably the only activity that is actually defined as "greiefing" by CCP is can-baiting newbies in starter systems. Everything else is fair game as long as no RL threats are issued and communication is lacking non-RP-ed racism or other specifically forbidden things.
Basically, "griefing" doesn't really exist in EVE outside of starter systems. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2011.01.11 01:10:00 -
[11]
lol thats nowhere near griefing.
Griefing on the level CCP step in would be targetting 1 player and suicide ganking him and his clone without financial reasons until he quits eve.
Anything less is just the game. I personally hunt down individuals alot, but thats because they fit their ships so nicely.
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:03:00 -
[12]
You should have sent your employer an invoice to be approved for adding the alt corp to the contract before actually making it happen, but other than that blow them all to hell.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Lilla Kharn
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:07:00 -
[13]
Patriot Act? Damn, I would have war dec'd these nubs with you. I would have lol'd at the chance to get arrested under the patriot act for war dec'ing in an internet spaceships game. ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T Probably the only activity that is actually defined as "greiefing" by CCP is can-baiting newbies in starter systems. Everything else is fair game as long as no RL threats are issued and communication is lacking non-RP-ed racism or other specifically forbidden things.
Basically, "griefing" doesn't really exist in EVE outside of starter systems.
This isn't true. If you harass any players just "for the lulz", and that's pretty much all you do, it's bannable.
linkage
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Scorpyn
Warp Ghosts Omega Spectres of the Deep
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:14:00 -
[15]
Quote: Greetings.
I have been thinking about the reasoning behind your corp war decing mine, and I came up with some realizations.
Your corp stated the reason for the war is because you found some SF alts within our corporation, and you war dec'ed WEX to get those players to fight in SF. That the war has nothing to do with this corporation itself, just the specific players.
I find that this reason goes beyond the scope of the MMORPG EVE Online. The war contract that your corp originally received was to dec SF, and the characters therein. I am almost certain that the contract said nothing about the physical players who pay to play the game, and all of their alts.
War decing a corporation because the players have alts in that corp is nothing short of cyber harassment and cyber bullying.
If you do not drop the war dec on Wiyrkomi Excavations, I will have no choice but to contact CCP and report your corporation for cyber harassment beyond the scope of the game, stating that the players themselves feel harassed and threatened by the reasons for this war dec.
This is not a bluff.
I will provide CCP with mails sent from your corporation to Carpet stating the reasons for the war dec above.
If this does not work, then I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act.
How am I supposed to be able to sleep now? This is way too funny
Keep the war going
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:15:00 -
[16]
To the op,
You surprise me as you are supposed to be a professional merc corp.
The way I look at it is you were hired to war-dec a corp which you did. But you took it a stage further and decided to war-dec the people behind the characters by declaring a war-dec on another corp where they had alts. Which is making it kind of personal which could be seen as a kind of griefing.
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Christopher AET
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:35:00 -
[17]
Or indeed a legitimate tactic by cutting the ISK flow to the original corporation. To kill an enemy group destroy their industry chain.
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Vak'ran
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Forum Guy To the op,
You surprise me as you are supposed to be a professional merc corp.
The way I look at it is you were hired to war-dec a corp which you did. But you took it a stage further and decided to war-dec the people behind the characters by declaring a war-dec on another corp where they had alts. Which is making it kind of personal which could be seen as a kind of griefing.
Bullcrap, in IC terms those alts are industrial capsuleers backing (some of) their war targets, meaning they have a very good (economical) reason to wardec them. In no way did the OP's corp go beyond the game. If you wish to talk griefing, threatening with silly local legislature that does not apply (this American Patriot Act thing) is griefing. It is the mining corp CEO's decision to resort to personal attack in the face of the concequences of his recruitment policy that is (or should be) the bannable offence here.
Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forum |
Brannor McThife
Caldari Lambent Enterprises Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:56:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Brannor McThife on 11/01/2011 03:06:41 Edited by: Brannor McThife on 11/01/2011 02:59:05 Patriot Act? Lol.
The US of A going to invade your country? Request extradition to the US?
Tactic is completely part of modern warfare.
Many centuries ago it was taboo to kill the wagon train people, etc. But then someone worked out that if you wipe out their supplies, you weaken them as a fighting force. Look at WW2, Germany's subs did this quite effectively for a long time.
Logistics targetting is now part and parcel of all modern war tactics.
Who is/was the CEO of WEX?
Edit: Corp: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/Wiyrkomi_Excavations CEO: Carpet Licker69ER
-G
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Ashlar Maidstone
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Posted - 2011.01.11 03:21:00 -
[20]
After looking at the mail that you recieved from the corps that you war dec'ced, I am under the opinion that yes, this is griefing but targeting specific players and not the corporation(s) themselves. I can be wrong however but yes there is a limit as to how far you can go before it becomes a matter outside of the game. This would be also go beyond the scope of the game masters and CCP as a whole as you would then enter into a whole new arena.
Cyber Terrorism is not new anymore as we all know from recent news. However when it becomes such that invoking the Patriot Act, may prove to be difficult even in a court of law, and a judge would really have to look at this form of griefing as harrassment or cyber bullying and rule accordingly.
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Lilla Kharn
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.11 03:33:00 -
[21]
Ok, my opinion. Who gives a crap? You dec'd indy alts who are in a player corp in a way the game mechanics allow. They can leave, so what? You dec'd them, doesn't matter the 'reasons' behind it. It's allowed in the game mechanics. If it's griefing, so be it. But they have the ability to prevent it. So, again I ask, who cares?
For you guys that sit here and say it's griefing, who cares? Maybe they should be in noob corps, maybe they should train up pvp. If CCP would want to consider it griefing they would get rid of indy skills entirely so people can't make 'indy corps', then claim griefing tactics. ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
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Posted - 2011.01.11 03:37:00 -
[22]
You wardec a corp because you got contracted to war dec that corp, fine.
You follow around corp members and continually harass the new corps they join, that's griefing.
The latter should not be allowed.
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Aessoroz
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Posted - 2011.01.11 03:45:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Aessoroz on 11/01/2011 03:45:17 Step 1. Open Corporation window Step 2. Open wars tab Step 3. open other wars tab Step 4. Search for "Unfortunate Soldiers" Step 5. Look at the obvious mining corp that is decced Step 6. Wardec mining corp for lulz
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Cyprus Black
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2011.01.11 04:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Azelor Delaria
Quote: Greetings.
I have been thinking about the reasoning behind your corp war decing mine, and I came up with some realizations.
Your corp stated the reason for the war is because you found some SF alts within our corporation, and you war dec'ed WEX to get those players to fight in SF. That the war has nothing to do with this corporation itself, just the specific players.
I find that this reason goes beyond the scope of the MMORPG EVE Online. The war contract that your corp originally received was to dec SF, and the characters therein. I am almost certain that the contract said nothing about the physical players who pay to play the game, and all of their alts.
War decing a corporation because the players have alts in that corp is nothing short of cyber harassment and cyber bullying.
If you do not drop the war dec on Wiyrkomi Excavations, I will have no choice but to contact CCP and report your corporation for cyber harassment beyond the scope of the game, stating that the players themselves feel harassed and threatened by the reasons for this war dec.
This is not a bluff.
I will provide CCP with mails sent from your corporation to Carpet stating the reasons for the war dec above.
If this does not work, then I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act.
These are the words of a desperate and/or stupid man. Desperate in that you found their vulnerable spot and he has no recourse.
Stupid in that, if he really believes what he's saying, this isn't greifing. It's not a reportable offense. It's not bullying nor harassment within the context of EvE. And there certainly is no clause in the Patriot Act that pertains to getting owned in a video game
That last part of the letter made me laugh out loud. I'd love to be a fly on the wall if he actually tries to report you as a cyber terrorist. Just imagine the explanation he will have to give for wasting the governments time. If he does try to report you as cyber terrorists under the patriot act, he could face jail time for making a false report. So by all means, rattle his cage a little more ________ 45 minutes & 720 clicks per six hours. 3 hours & 2,880 clicks per day. 21 hours & 20,160 clicks per week. 4 days & 89,280 clicks per month.
For the love of God, CCP. Fix PI. |
Pipe Cleaner
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Posted - 2011.01.11 04:16:00 -
[25]
I don't know who's more patheic--the guy who is threatening to call the po-po on a wardeccer BECAUSE OF PATRIOT ACT, or the guy who comes running to the forums scared that the FBI might be banging on his door any minute now
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Lord Dragonmede
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Posted - 2011.01.11 04:29:00 -
[26]
We will often wardec a corp under suspicion that it is an alt corp being used by war targets. This in our opinion is an acceptable tactic as alts are known to be used for spies, scouts, neutral RR, and hauling to trade hubs. "Alls fair in War" bucko. To meet your objectives of victory, you must at times expand your operations to include counter-espionage, and denial of logistical support and supply lines.
None of this has any effect on anything outside of the EvE Universe.
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Azelor Delaria
Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers
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Posted - 2011.01.11 04:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Pipe Cleaner I don't know who's more patheic--the guy who is threatening to call the po-po on a wardeccer BECAUSE OF PATRIOT ACT, or the guy who comes running to the forums scared that the FBI might be banging on his door any minute now
I work for the government. I'm not really worried about the FBI...it's NCIS that scares the sh*t outta' me! =X ***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2011.01.11 04:39:00 -
[28]
So how many wardecs are Wiyrkomi Excavations up to now I wonder?
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Azelor Delaria
Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers
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Posted - 2011.01.11 04:46:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pohbis So how many wardecs are Wiyrkomi Excavations up to now I wonder?
I dunno'. But they joined an Alliance! ***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
Mess Enger
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Posted - 2011.01.11 04:46:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Mess Enger on 11/01/2011 04:49:32
Originally by: Ashlar Maidstone After looking at the mail that you recieved from the corps that you war dec'ced, I am under the opinion that yes, this is griefing but targeting specific players and not the corporation(s) themselves. I can be wrong however but yes there is a limit as to how far you can go before it becomes a matter outside of the game. This would be also go beyond the scope of the game masters and CCP as a whole as you would then enter into a whole new arena.
Cyber Terrorism is not new anymore as we all know from recent news. However when it becomes such that invoking the Patriot Act, may prove to be difficult even in a court of law, and a judge would really have to look at this form of griefing as harrassment or cyber bullying and rule accordingly.
I won't play EVE without a lawyer anymore.
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