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ARES 003
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Posted - 2010.12.15 18:47:00 -
[1]
Ok ok, so I started out as Amarr and I wanted to fight some people at this station, so I take this rifter's can, he pwns me (im in a punisher), and then tells me I should train for a rifter, so I'm like "ok!", train autocannons, get in my rifter, go fight an Incursus, and was dominated by his superior tank damage and speed. I decide to train blasters and buy an Incursus, guess what? I get BBQed by a rifter.
I am just wondering which one is actually the superior and which one I should stick with. I also would like a good fit for which one you recommend pls.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2010.12.15 18:55:00 -
[2]
Maybe it is because you haven't been playing very long and so your skills aren't great and you also don't know the right tactics with the ships you're using.
I would say just stick with the Punisher.
[Punisher, Pwnisher] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II
1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Nosferatu II
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
For rigs I usually put 3x Capacitor Control Circuits or 2x Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster and 1x Small Energy Burst Aerator.
For ammo bring Multifrequency and Scorch. If whoever you're fighting orbits close, your Multi, if they decide to kite you at 5-8km, use Scorch. Train Thermodynamics so you can overheatd your afterburner and scram when they try to run away, get your gunnery and armor tanking skills up, kill other frigs and die to other frigs.
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:02:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tony SoXai Maybe it is because you haven't been playing very long and so your skills aren't great and you also don't know the right tactics with the ships you're using.
I would say just stick with the Punisher.
[Punisher, Pwnisher] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II
1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Nosferatu II
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
For rigs I usually put 3x Capacitor Control Circuits or 2x Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster and 1x Small Energy Burst Aerator.
For ammo bring Multifrequency and Scorch. If whoever you're fighting orbits close, your Multi, if they decide to kite you at 5-8km, use Scorch. Train Thermodynamics so you can overheatd your afterburner and scram when they try to run away, get your gunnery and armor tanking skills up, kill other frigs and die to other frigs.
You are doing it wrong, you want to fit ACs to a punisher. But back to the OP, best frig is the rifter and minmatr are a great PvP race so I would them.
Cookie Cutter Rifter Fit
[Rifter - Standard Murder]
Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates
1MN Afterburner II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II
150mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S] 150mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S] 150mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S] Small Nosferatu II
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: oldmanst4r
You are doing it wrong, you want to fit ACs to a punisher.
Yea, that would be a great idea without the ability to dictate range
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:43:00 -
[5]
Yeah no, AC punisher kinda sucks compared to laser punisher IMO. It uses lasers for a reason - range. you cannot dictate range so you are able to shoot at ranges other frigs will orbit at with lasers optimal range. It also gets a cap use bonus to them so crying about how they use cap is kind of worthless when on top of that the Punisher has great cap capacity.
I am also sick of hearing rifter this and rifter that.
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Roscojameson
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tony SoXai I am also sick of hearing rifter this and rifter that.
Well, the rifter is the best all around frigate out there. What do you expect?
What I've learned flying in frigate vs frigate fights, the incursus is the best if you can use T2 blasters so you can use null. Otherwise the rifter is just going to kite you to death, and he still might if you don't fly well. It still might be smarter for you to just go Minnie as they are the best race for small skirmishes.
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: oldmanst4r on 15/12/2010 20:10:56
Originally by: Tony SoXai Yeah no, AC punisher kinda sucks compared to laser punisher IMO. It uses lasers for a reason - range. you cannot dictate range so you are able to shoot at ranges other frigs will orbit at with lasers optimal range. It also gets a cap use bonus to them so crying about how they use cap is kind of worthless when on top of that the Punisher has great cap capacity.
I am also sick of hearing rifter this and rifter that.
Lasers versus ACs is debatable. What I would say is that I find that lasers have tracking problems at close range with no web, and since you can't dictate range with a punisher I prefer to have the additional real dps and cap that using autocannons gives. Plus, you can still do decent damage anywhere within scram/web range with barrage, especially if you tack on a couple of ambit rigs.
Though of course, the main problem with the Punisher is that it is completely unable to dictate range. This makes it impossible to prevent anything you fight from disengaging if they start to lose, so really you are relying on the stupidity of the other pilot to get you kills which I don't find very reliable. You also are unable to disengage yourself, forcing you to commit entirely to every fight.
That is why everyone recommends the rifter. You may be sick of hearing it but the rifter can dictate range against any other frig and can fit tank, dps, and a full set of tackle. It is flexible fitting wise, and there are several excellent fits for the rifter, TD rifter, Armor Buffer, Shield/Neut, and active armor. The only frigate than can consistently challenge a rifter 1v1 is the Merlin, and that's a toss up depending on how each one is fitted.
I am recommending the rifter because it is the most powerful ship a newbie can get into, the punisher is fun to fly (I love the thing) but it is by no means the best frig.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Roscojameson
Originally by: Tony SoXai I am also sick of hearing rifter this and rifter that.
Well, the rifter is the best all around frigate out there. What do you expect?
What I've learned flying in frigate vs frigate fights, the incursus is the best if you can use T2 blasters so you can use null. Otherwise the rifter is just going to kite you to death, and he still might if you don't fly well. It still might be smarter for you to just go Minnie as they are the best race for small skirmishes.
See it is not just the Rifter, but the idea that Minnie are better in skirmishes than everyone else. They may be the best because of their speed but not by a lot. Sacrilege/Curse/Ishtar are all godly at what they do, Ishtar being more versatile than any of them, depending on what you are doing with it you can fit it out in MANY different ways, certainly more than you can fit out a Vagabond or a Huginn.
IMO The punisher/rifter/incursus are pretty much as good as eachother (maybe merlin too but not had experience with that one), but I strongly favour the Punisher or Incursus because everyone thinks the rifter is so damn good. An Incursus will (true story) wreck a rifter almost every time but since the only people who fly them usually are noobs (because everyone says rifter is beastin s they train minnie frig) the rifter kills the incursus a lot more. And same goes for the punisher - this one simply outtanks it by so much that the 30 or so more dps from a rifter is irrelevent and after that the only thing a rifter has is speed to gtfo.
TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:30:00 -
[9]
Frigate combat is not as much a spreadsheet game as for the larger hulls. Player skill plays a significant part in what works and what doesn't.
You repeatedly die because you keep switching ships in the hopes of finding the iWin button .. guess what:
iWin doesn't exist in the frigate level (Dramiel is pwn'ed by new rocks and uber-tracking guns).
Pick a ship you like and fly it constantly until you can find the coffee maker without powering up the lights.
Punisher served me very well in a laser/active tank configuration, quite handy to be able to repair all damage for 30s in a 1v1 fight :)
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Truculent Misanthrope
Amarr Generic Internet Spaceships Trading Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:02:00 -
[10]
How to Punisher when you don't have to worry about roaming:
[Punisher, HowToPunisher] Damage Control II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Gyrostabilizer II
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
10K ehp, neut, reasonable dps. Only your mids stop working when you hit 0 cap, guns and tank keep going.
Tactic to use it is REALLY simple. Approach target, scram, shoot. Fails epically to anyone who tries to kite but hey, Punishers aren't meant to zoom around. They're bricks. Should smash anyone who tries to slug it out though.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tony SoXai TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin.
And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol.
And then he'll...warp away? Unless that was a "pick one or two of these" list.
ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:10:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Lugalzagezi666 on 15/12/2010 21:12:39 Yes, he will definitely warp out with scram on him and being 200m/s slower than you. E: Yes, my fault, i meant scram. But you knew it, didnt you?
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Yoru Yukhantstev
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol.
And then he'll...warp away? Unless that was a "pick one or two of these" list.
He meant AB/Scram/TD not AB/Web/TD, and yes TD rifter will F**k you up.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:13:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 15/12/2010 21:14:03
Originally by: Yoru Yukhantstev He meant AB/Scram/TD not AB/Web/TD
That makes a bit more sense. Carry on all...
ED for Luls's ED: Yeah, I should have just assumed that. I'll use my brain and not just go directly into smartass mode in the future.
ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Dante Cowboy
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:16:00 -
[16]
What's a good fit for an incursus to take on a rifter?
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dante Cowboy What's a good fit for an incursus to take on a rifter?
Ab, web, scram + rails. It will be very close even if you do positioning before fight right.
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Herping yourDerp
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:21:00 -
[18]
you prolly lost the the incursus because it is a t2 ship, with 5 drones, and a better tank its a hard fight for any pilot
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:23:00 -
[19]
I would always fly rifter for the speed and versatility, but i would expect to die if i let an incursus get close. In truth the t1 frigates are probably the level at which ccp has found the best balance, it really does come down to the pilot. You will never get good with any ship if you dump it every time you die. Pick one and stick with it.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dante Cowboy What's a good fit for an incursus to take on a rifter?
This is pretty good vs rifters and other ships as well.
[Incursus, Incursus] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II
1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Stasis Webifier II
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Hobgoblin II x1
Downgrade to smaller stuff as needed.
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:26:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Doddy on 15/12/2010 21:25:56
Originally by: Herping yourDerp you prolly lost the the incursus because it is a t2 ship, with 5 drones, and a better tank its a hard fight for any pilot
I believe that would be the ishkur dude. Incursus is the hull the ishkur (and enyo) is based on.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Tony SoXai TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin.
And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol.
Very much depends on what you fit. - 125mm AC has no real issues tracking. - Gatling has no real issues tracking. - DLP + 1 rig has no real issues tracking. - MP is screwed against AB, period. Don't even need a TD to mess that one up hard
As in all frigate fights it is as much the pilots situational awareness as it is his ability to fit properly. Manual piloting will get you a long way towards rendering a TD worthless, only real exception is if speed difference is astronomical (ie. scrammed MWD, Dramiel).
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Tony SoXai TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin.
And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol.
Very much depends on what you fit. - 125mm AC has no real issues tracking. - Gatling has no real issues tracking. - DLP + 1 rig has no real issues tracking. - MP is screwed against AB, period. Don't even need a TD to mess that one up hard
As in all frigate fights it is as much the pilots situational awareness as it is his ability to fit properly. Manual piloting will get you a long way towards rendering a TD worthless, only real exception is if speed difference is astronomical (ie. scrammed MWD, Dramiel).
This is wrong. Not even a thrasher using 125s will be able to track nearly as well with a TD applied, especially against a rifter. And about manual piloting, this has never worked for me, in frig fights, even when we were both pretty much immobile, I would miss sometimes, so no it will not render a TD useless. Manual piloting is, in my experience, nearly useless. Not nearly as useful as the ability to align and turn on your ab, anyway.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:34:00 -
[24]
Rifter pilot will just load barrage, optimal script, set "keep at range 7k" and its over. Also rifter CAN outtrack even small acs on hull without tracking bonus and no web.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:42:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 15/12/2010 21:45:10
Originally by: Tony SoXai ... And about manual piloting, this has never worked for me, in frig fights, even when we were both pretty much immobile...
I bolded the part that should give you clue as to why it didn't work. Manoeuvring is the single most effective counter to a TD, much more than enhancers and computers, especially on frigate level where everything takes place in a <15km sphere.
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Rifter pilot will just load barrage, optimal script, set "keep at range 7k" and its over. Also rifter CAN outtrack even small acs on hull without tracking bonus and no web.
Have fun trying to break a Punisher tank with barrage at that range .. hope you brought reloads Scorch allows DLP to hit you for more than you are hitting him, keep at range fluctuates with a few km when speeds are uneven, been there - done that - killed that.
Only Rifter I have lost a Laser Punisher to, after I got to terms with the ship class, was an oversize plate bastard with ECM .. almost got him to hull but damn that was a lot of armour.
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Major Stuart
The Green Cross Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:45:00 -
[26]
Buffer Tank Merlin > all
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:51:00 -
[27]
You will cap out eventually, especially you will keep shooting. Its possible you will be able to deagro and jump the gate. And td will cut range of dlps with scorch to maybe 5k. While range fluctuates, you wont get so close to rifter. And only thing you need to do is spamming approach and keep at range/orbit.
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Herping yourDerp
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Doddy Edited by: Doddy on 15/12/2010 21:25:56
Originally by: Herping yourDerp you prolly lost the the incursus because it is a t2 ship, with 5 drones, and a better tank its a hard fight for any pilot
I believe that would be the ishkur dude. is the hull the ishkur (and enyo) is based on.
yea your right i mix up gaylente ships =(
anyways delete gaylente, enslave all slavematar amarr own.
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Headerman
Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.15 22:05:00 -
[29]
Actually, with the new rocket fix, the Kestrel is now one of the toughest frigates to fly.
Wouldn't mind trying a Breacher either... but god knows why it has only 2 lows and 2 mediums when all the other missile frigs get more
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.15 22:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Headerman Actually, with the new rocket fix, the Kestrel is now one of the toughest frigates to fly.
Wouldn't mind trying a Breacher either... but god knows why it has only 2 lows and 2 mediums when all the other missile frigs get more
I wouldn't worry about it. If it is anything like the other missile spamming frigates you wont have the CPU to use an extra slot anyway
Super-Kestrel, aka. Navy Hookbill, is turning out to be quite the beast. Good range, excellent damage and lots of mids for nastiness = Evil in a can.
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