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Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2010.12.02 02:32:00 -
[1]
With the new expansion CCP decided to remove the ship drawbacks of T2 turret ammunition. At the same time they buffed T2 turret ammo to perhaps make it more useful than faction ammo if only in certain situations. Balance be damned!
Meanwhile T2 missile ammunition was untouched insofar as the ship drawbacks. What this means is that T2 missiles are the ONLY ammunition that by loading it makes you more likely to die in a fire.
I have listed below the current bonuses/penalties T2 missiles have in comparison to T1 missiles along with a few suggestions. I open the floor for debate and discussion.
T2 Fury
PROS:
More damage
CONS:
*Signature bloom. (your ship is bigger thus easier to hit and takes more damage) Higher explosion radius.
SUGGESTIONS:
*Remove signature bloom (no other ammo has it now) Increase explosion radius
T2 Precision
PROS:
Smaller explosion radius
CONS:
*Ship velocity penalty (your ship goes slower thus easier to hit and takes more damage) Range reduction Damage reduction
SUGGESTIONS:
*Remove ship velocity penalty (no other ammo has it now) Decrease range Increase explosion velocity (make it not only good vs. smaller but also faster ships) Decrease explosion radius (it is currently not significantly more beneficial than faction)
T2 Javelin
PROS:
Increased range
CONS:
*Ship velocity penalty (your ship goes slower thus easier to hit and takes more damage) Range reduction Damage reduction
SUGGESTIONS:
*Remove ship velocity penalty (no other ammo has it now) Decrease range and/or Decrease explosion velocity and/or Increase explosion radius
I feel it is imbalance to have only one weapon system in game that has a ship drawback. It is poor game design and will lead to no one choosing these ship if left as is.
With the exception of precision missiles, which suck, the tracking and damage of T2 missiles seems to be balanced with regard to faction missiles and T2 turret ammo. Making them a bit more dependent on tackle should be enough to justify getting rid of the ship drawbacks.
What say you?
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.02 03:41:00 -
[2]
I agree that it's silly they're removing ship-based drawbacks from turret ammo and not missiles.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.02 04:10:00 -
[3]
I've never been a fan of ship penalties, and as such would be +1 to removing them outright.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.02 04:54:00 -
[4]
yes lets make the unprobable tengu even better!
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BabyEating Dingo
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Posted - 2010.12.02 05:26:00 -
[5]
Quote: It is poor game design and will lead to no one choosing these ship if left as is.
So you're saying if they don't change T2 missiles, people will ragequit from their Drakes?
-1 to you good sir!
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.02 06:34:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton yes lets make the unprobable tengu even better!
Being unprobeable doesn't really matter. Nobody is going to catch you anyway.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Hauling Hal
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Posted - 2010.12.02 08:27:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Patri Andari
T2 Precision
PROS:
SUGGESTIONS:
Decrease range
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.02 09:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton yes lets make the unprobable tengu even better!
Also alot good a unprobable Tengu does for its only useful use Lvl 5`s, they will just probe down all the group of wrecks anyways if they are halfway smart/Competent.
It is BS that Turret Ammo is getting Buff and Not Missiles, besides Drake Missile Boats already get the worst Drawback of all, Flight Time, Also with Hams or Torps that need Web/Painter this is really gonna set them back. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.02 09:45:00 -
[9]
Well if you look at marauders only golem has "no bonuses".
Paladin: 25% to damage Vargur: 25% to rof Kronos: 25% to damage Golem: 25% to explosion velocity ?!
So golem needs fixing too. Suggestions: 1. 5% to explosion radius reduction per level 2. 5% to damage of cruise and torps
____________________________________________________________________________ Angel 0/A |
NoNah
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Posted - 2010.12.02 09:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kail Storm
Also alot good a unprobable Tengu does for its only useful use Lvl 5`s, they will just probe down all the group of wrecks anyways if they are halfway smart/Competent.
I laughed. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 215773
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Vokradacka
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Posted - 2010.12.02 10:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Patri Andari
T2 Precision (it is currently not significantly more beneficial than faction)
Actually CN missiles doing more dmg in 95% of situations(we tested it for ATs)...
=> its trash with drawback :D funny as always.
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Boinz
Caldari Muffin Munchers
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Posted - 2010.12.02 10:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Spc One Edited by: Spc One on 02/12/2010 09:56:54
Well if you look at marauders only golem has "no bonuses".
Paladin: 25% to damage Vargur: 25% to rof Kronos: 25% to damage Golem: 25% to explosion velocity ?!
So golem needs fixing too. Suggestions: 1. 5% to explosion radius reduction per level 2. 5% to damage of cruise and torps 3. 5% to rate of fire of cruise and siege missile launcher.
So all marauders have 125% damage or 100% + 25% rof only golem has 100% and that's it.
The problem is also that npc rats usually use defender missiles and if one of your cruise missiles dies that's about 25% of the dps of golem while vargur for example doesn't have that drawback. So putting a 25% rof on golem will balance it a little to other marauders.
Please tell me how the golem will do with torps after this.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Guess what I'm wearing.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.12.02 10:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Spc One
So all marauders have 125% damage or 100% + 25% rof only golem has 100% and that's it.
and even then its the marauder that do the most dps of the group
Originally by: Spc One The problem is also that npc rats usually use defender missiles and if one of your cruise missiles dies that's about 25% of the dps of golem while vargur for example doesn't have that drawback. So putting a 25% rof on golem will balance it a little to other marauders.
if you have problem with defenders probably you are using cruise = you are doing it wrong a 25% rof on the golem would mean a 1800 dps ship a bit OP imho
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Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:02:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Spc One on 02/12/2010 11:02:27
Originally by: 1600 RT
if you have problem with defenders probably you are using cruise = you are doing it wrong a 25% rof on the golem would mean a 1800 dps ship a bit OP imho
Nope, golem is officially made for cruise missiles. Look at certificates for it.
____________________________________________________________________________ Angel 0/A |
Shiho Weitong
Caldari Koa Mai Hoku
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Spc One Edited by: Spc One on 02/12/2010 11:02:27
Originally by: 1600 RT
if you have problem with defenders probably you are using cruise = you are doing it wrong a 25% rof on the golem would mean a 1800 dps ship a bit OP imho
Nope, golem is officially made for cruise missiles. Look at certificates for it.
AHAHAHAHAHA
Using certificates for fitting advice is just plain stupid. ----------- Why is it called common sense, when it's clearly very rare.
I had a mind once, but alas, I seem to have forgotten where I left it.
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn You win, and thank you. |
Hathrul
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:31:00 -
[16]
though i can understand why its odd that missiles is the only groupd with drawbacks, i really dont want your solutions
T2 fury even more explosion radius? then itll really be BS only ammo. ill take the sig bloom
T2 precision/javelin not sure what the speed diff makes. even on my kiting tengu the speed reduction was never a problem. id hate it a lot more to have less range, or much worse, more explosion radius or lower exp velocity. that would kinda defeat the entire purpose
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I've never been a fan of ship penalties, and as such would be +1 to removing them outright.
-Liang
I agree.
However, the OPs changes is horrible and actaully serves to make missiles worse. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Spc One Edited by: Spc One on 02/12/2010 09:56:54
Well if you look at marauders only golem has "no bonuses".
Paladin: 25% to damage Vargur: 25% to rof Kronos: 25% to damage Golem: 25% to explosion velocity ?!
So golem needs fixing too. Suggestions: 1. 5% to explosion radius reduction per level 2. 5% to damage of cruise and torps 3. 5% to rate of fire of cruise and siege missile launcher.
So all marauders have 125% damage or 100% + 25% rof only golem has 100% and that's it.
The problem is also that npc rats usually use defender missiles and if one of your cruise missiles dies that's about 25% of the dps of golem while vargur for example doesn't have that drawback. So putting a 25% rof on golem will balance it a little to other marauders.
Actually, the Golem has an equivalent of 8 Siege Launchers, and compared to regular turret boats thats significant since most Torps boats only have 5 or 6 main launchers.
Golem, while a bore to fly, is good at what it does, great damage at great ranges, and the velocity bonus makes torps even better combined wiht the painter bonus. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:52:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Spc One on 02/12/2010 11:55:26
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Actually, the Golem has an equivalent of 8 Siege Launchers, and compared to regular turret boats thats significant since most Torps boats only have 5 or 6 main launchers.
Well paladin, kronos has an equivalent of 10 turrets which is 2 more than golem. Plus a paladin for example can be cap stable fit with one heatsink which gives more damage, golem can't. ____________________________________________________________________________ Angel 0/A |
Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2010.12.02 12:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Liang Nuren I've never been a fan of ship penalties, and as such would be +1 to removing them outright.
-Liang
I agree.
However, the OPs changes is horrible and actaully serves to make missiles worse.
Sidius, I am not married to the suggestions I made. In fact the ony one I truly advocate is improving both the explosion velocity and explosion radius of precision missiles.
That being said, I doubt CCP will consider removing the drawbacks without some how adjusting the performance of missiles or they simply would have done so in this expansion. (I wish they would have).
If you or anyone else has counter suggestions I would ask that you share them. I simply think leaving in ship drawbacks for only one weapon class is a horrible game balance.
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2010.12.02 12:27:00 -
[21]
I assume since you think missiles deserve to be nerfed if they have their drawbacks removed, then turret ammo was also nerfed when they had their drawbacks removed. Is this the case?
Oh yeah, about my sig... you have now read it.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.12.02 13:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vokradacka
Originally by: Patri Andari
T2 Precision (it is currently not significantly more beneficial than faction)
Actually CN missiles doing more dmg in 95% of situations(we tested it for ATs)...
=> its trash with drawback :D funny as always.
Yeah, I found much the same - there's a VERY FEW niches where it does more, but ... they're all when neither weapon is doing significant amounts of damage anyway. The difference between 11 damage per (cruise) missile, and 13... well, precision just isn't going to save you.
Javelin suffers similarly - extra range missiles are a nice idea, but slowing you down to do it, just makes them utterly useless. OK, torps aren't so bad (110km stealth bombers!), but javelin rockets are just a sick joke.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.12.02 15:51:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 02/12/2010 15:52:23
Originally by: Spc One Edited by: Spc One on 02/12/2010 11:55:26
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Actually, the Golem has an equivalent of 8 Siege Launchers, and compared to regular turret boats thats significant since most Torps boats only have 5 or 6 main launchers.
Well paladin, kronos has an equivalent of 10 turrets which is 2 more than golem.
The point he was trying to make is that each (effective) siege launcher generally does quite a bit more damage than each (effective) turret, hence CCP giving Golems less total effective turrets to maintain balance with the class. He made this point by comparing the Typhoon and especially the Raven (5 and 6, respectively) to other turret ships (like the Megathron or Hyperion, 7 and 8 turrets respectively).
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.12.02 16:01:00 -
[24]
The slight problem with your argument here is that fury missiles are actually good.
Turret short range ammo isn't, hence the buff. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2010.12.02 16:04:00 -
[25]
CCP care that much about Caldari & Missile boats, they forgot they even had T2 Ammo to update.....
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.12.02 16:23:00 -
[26]
My view on t2 missile ammo :
t2 fury - useless on frig level - useful to good on cruiser/bc level - ??? on bs level, cant see any situation where id want to use cruises in pvp, for pve it can have its use
t2 precision - 95% of the time its not worth reloading from faction - velocity penalty makes it completely useless on frig level
t2 rage - very bad on frig level, ammo thats meant to be used vs bigger ships actually makes you easier to hit by them + there is drone shooting issue, but thats same for hybrid and projectile t2 ammo - good on drake/bcs for fighting other bcs - on bs level its somewhat useful for shooting caps or if you got tps on primary, or if you use crash booster
t2 javelin - very bad to useless on frig level, velocity penalty means death for frig, id love to know how would rifter pilots feel with velocity penalty on barrage - on cruiser/bc level only useful as last defence vs kiter - same for bs hulls, but useful for bombers
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Typherian
Minmatar Legio Invicta Black Skull Legion.
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Posted - 2010.12.02 16:38:00 -
[27]
personally I think its completely balanced to keep the penalties on missiles. You missile users had a huge advantage for a while. No tracking no need for a second set of damage mods. Give them a tracking enhancer equivalent and it will be fair to remove the penalties.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.02 16:59:00 -
[28]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Kail Storm
Also alot good a unprobable Tengu does for its only useful use Lvl 5`s, they will just probe down all the group of wrecks anyways if they are halfway smart/Competent.
I laughed.
Im glad you laughed but in reality please tell me a situation where you need a Unprobable Tengu in PVP where a Cov Ops isnt far superior?
Next please explain to me, how in your Plex/Lvl 5 the enemy wont probe out the plex or the Wrecks? -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.02 17:02:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Kail Storm on 02/12/2010 17:04:11
Originally by: Typherian personally I think its completely balanced to keep the penalties on missiles. You missile users had a huge advantage for a while. No tracking no need for a second set of damage mods. Give them a tracking enhancer equivalent and it will be fair to remove the penalties.
Are you serious?
1 Great Fleet ship and only great because its cheap and easy to replace, and all the sudden missiles were such Pwners its there time to suck? lol
How did we have a huge advantage? Using the cruise missiles, the Rockets? Or the roaming packs of Ravens we always saw? If you dont understand the diff in Expl Vel/Radius and having no tracking then dont post.
Turrets natural Setback is tracking Disruptors but they do insta DMg from any range which is massive advantage, Missiles arent Disrupted but have to wait 8-10 Secs to hit from 70km away. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Typherian
Minmatar Legio Invicta Black Skull Legion.
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Posted - 2010.12.02 17:05:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Typherian on 02/12/2010 17:06:26 Heh you had it better than the gallente. They had lackluster performance from their weapons and had to use a two different damage mods. Also you can't consider a drake a minority of OMG WE ONLY HAVE ONE GOOD SHIP because half of Eve uses that one ship.
EDIT and I'm not saying its their time to suck. I just think that they should have some negatives to balance out the tracking disruptor immunity and lack of a second required mod.
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